124grain lee rn boolit

[Russman]

Anyone have any good loads for this booolit? I haven’t found any load data for this one.I keep asking myself why I buy moulds with little to no load data that I can find???

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would start with data for any cast bullet in that weight range (±5.0gr)
Lyman and Lee's manual list several.
I like Red Dot and/or Unique.
What powders do you have?

[Russman]

I have titegroup.The manuals have similar weighted bullets but a different design

[Bazoo]

Lee data is lacking in my opinion too. I don't have a Lyman cast bullet handbook 4th edition yet, but it's on my short list of must haves. I hear tell it has data for lee bullets.

[MT Gianni]

Substitute data for Ly 358242 124 gr if it has a lube groove. If it is a tumble lube mold toss it out before you get too emotionally involved.

[Conditor22]

JB's right, find a boolit that looks similar, same diameter and weighs the same. Start at the bottom and work your way up until you find the best load for your gun

You are talking about the Lee TL356-124-2R?-- my friends guns like OAL 1.065 your mileage may vary :)

You'll find max charge here: http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

and downloadable manuals and links to online sources here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources.

I am currently working out OAL and load data for a friends guns using BE I'm close on getting the right charge
AND load data and OAL for new(ish) to me Llama 1911 9MM and Walther p38 -- both slug out at .358 (most European 9MM's have a larger bore than US 9MM's

these are the boolits I'm using.

356-120-TC
TL356-124-TC
TL356-124-2R
358-125 RF
356-125 2R

got 4 out of 5 OAL's figured out and only needed 1 bandaid[smilie=1:

[Russman]

Nice,I think I’m gonna size it to 358 and see if it is gonna lead or not.

[Conditor22]

Russ, I would start by slugging your barrel to see how big you need. a lot of US lugers are happy with .356 -- .357.
.358 may not chamber.

You never said what you were planning to shoot this in.

[Russman]

I have a smith and Wesson m and p 2.0 9mm I am gonna shoot

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've been using the .358-124-2r (not tumble lube) in my 9mm. I have found I get close to my EDC factory ammo velocities & point of impact, with 5.1 gr CFE-Pistol.
OAL for my gun works best at 1.125"

Here is how I approach loads for Lee molds. I find some load recipes for various other bullets of similar weights. I research the length of the bullets used in those recipes, (sometimes going as far as calling the manufacturers). Then I measure the length of the bullets cast from my Lee mold. Then I do the math to figure out what the OAL would be if I were to seat the Lee bullet to the same depth as the bullet in the published recipe. I don't do anything to harden my cast bullets, so I generally follow the rule of thumb that cast bullets produce less pressure than jacketed so I won't hesitate to work off a jacketed bullet recipe. Then I start low, and work up. I shoot over a chronograph and note the steady increase in velocities with each load increment. If the velocity jumps up out of proportion I would back down and stop development there. I collect brass and look for signs of pressure at each step up. I take photos and post them here for critique.

In the situation of my development of the above load: I worked off Hodgdon's recipe for a Sierra FMJ 125 gr. The Sierra FMJ is actually longer than the Lee RN so matching the OAL would produce a shallower seating depth. The Hodgdon data lists an OAL of 1.090". By doing a plunk test my gun will accept 1.130" OAL with that Lee bullet, however it cycles better at 1.125". So I'm shooting cast instead of jacketed, plus I've got more room in the case than the Hodgdon recipe. I started at 4.0 and worked up to 5.1 which is the max for that recipe.
Other recipes for 125 grain bullets on Hodgdon show max charges of 4.8, 5.0, and 5.5.

I had a bit of a funky primer dimple at 5.1 grains. I posted photos here and was re-assured that the dimple getting pushed back out was because I was using Remington primers. I switched primer brands and the problem went away.

My velocities with that load average 990 fps from a 3-inch barrel.

[JBinMN]

The TL356-124gr RN comes out at 0.602" from my mold. 0.278" lube micro grooves & bearing surface

The TL356-124gr TC comes out at 0.580" from my mold. 0.310" lube micro grooves & bearing surface

The LG 356-120gr TC comes out at 0.589" from my mold. 0.278" lube groove & bearing surface

The differences on OAL for EACH BOOLIT, is up to your mold & may differ slightly from mine, although I would think they would be very close per Lee's QA standards.

I provided my boolit OALs for you to have comparison if you wanted, as well as the bearing surface length for you to calculate the differences to help find your own OAL for the whole cartridge. As you can see above, there is similarity between the RN & the Single lube groove bearing surface, while the TL- TC is longer.

I load the TC boolits at around 1.070 to 1.080, and the RN at around 1.11-1.12 OAL. ( I am still "testing" for a final "determined" OAL for each, so that is why the "range" between OAL.)

These are loaded in an Ruger SR9mm, which has a Generous chamber, and I could go out past the lube groove on the LG boolit & still chamber the round, but the magaine feed is a factor that has to be considered as well. So, I stay in a raange of OAL that is approximate to other boolits/bullets of this weight & type.

I am using Red Dot, which compares to Bullseye in the loading data with just a tenth of a grain or so Below BE on just about every handgun load data that I have going back to the Speer# 11 from the 1980s or so. (Promo would also be a "weighed" substitute for RD.)

Max. load for either powder(RD/Promo & BE) & that 124gr. for each boolit type, runs around 4.2 - 4.5gr. dependent on what load data/manual you use. I stay below 4.2 for economy & safety purpose, but I that is "me". Others can do as they like.

My "general load for all 3 ( and even with a 120gr boolit I use.) is 3.8 or 3.9 gr. RD/Promo, since that load gave me the best chronoed data & accuracy off sandbags so far. ( I am still testing" all sorts of variables as I like to play around with such things, but the info here is what I am using, "now".)

As said & most likely know, that each firearm has its' own individual characteristics on what it likes to run/feed & shoot and we have to "design to fit" for each one while staying in what safety concerns & load data is given to us, unless we want to "push the envelope" at our own risk & exceed the load data.

What works for "me" & my firearm(s), may not work for "you" & your firearm(s).

I hope you find this info helps, as well as the others info provided & you find a suitable safe load.

G'Luck!
:)

[LAH]

Nice,I think I’m gonna size it to 358 and see if it is gonna lead or not.

My MP Pro or Compac will chamber a .358 bullet.

[fredj338]

If you are depending on printed loading data for your bullets, then give up casting & buy jacketed? There is no magic to reloading data. The data gets you in the ball park & the rest is up to the reloader. Look up 124gr RN MFJ data & use the starting data point. Adjust OAL to fit your gun, then work up as needed.

[HCH]

I use that bullet in all my 9mm’s. It usually has to be seated short to stay out of the lands.

3.6 grains of TG makes right at 1000 FPS out of a stock G17, and with WW/hospital lead it drops at 130 grains.

Just use load data for another 124 cast (or jacketed) and you’ll be fine.

[gwpercle]

I have titegroup.The manuals have similar weighted bullets but a different design

Go with the load data for the similar designed boolit of the same weight ....in Lyman #4 it's a truncated cone but you have to start somewhere . In 9mm Luger nose shape isn't that critical , OAL will be different but the powder charges will be similar. Start at the minimum and work up slowly.
You will be fine. I have the Lee 356-125-2R round nose mould and have simply used the Lyman Data with no problems . I haven't worked up any Titegroup loads yet. Been using Red Dot and Unique .

Do not use data intended for jacketed bullets... Only use data for Lead Boolits...there is a difference in powder charges.
Gary

[Russman]

Thank you all for taking the time to explain to me in depth about this.It is much appreciated!

[Taterhead]

For the "2R" Lee 356 cast, I load it over 4.9 gr Unique. It is seated short at 1.04" to plunk in the fussiest gun. Sized .358"

[Jniedbalski]

I use 3.5 gr of bullseye for my 9 mm load. I have used 4.0 also. Boath loads work good

[Walks]

4.0gr of Bullseye over any 120-125gr. OAL 1.110"
I size .356dia for all my 9's.

I like the Lyman #356402 best. Cast straight LINO.

[Russman]

One more quick question just to be safe.If my oal is chambering at 1.040 will that be safe?I know that taterhead said it would be.I just don’t know how much room is left inside the case after the powder and then seating the bullet.Just don’t wanna blow my hand off,lol��

[JBinMN]

One more quick question just to be safe.If my oal is chambering at 1.040 will that be safe?I know that taterhead said it would be.I just don’t know how much room is left inside the case after the powder and then seating the bullet.Just don’t wanna blow my hand off,lol��

OK. I will try to explain a way to find out what is best for "that" handgun.

There are 2 ways to figure out "that" handguns Max. OAL & then you can reduce from there down to the SAAMI OAL, or the manuals listed shortest OAL... if you can find it.

Remember, if you go "Longer" than suggested OAL, you will be "Reducing" pressure, since you are leaving "more" space inside the case. As you reduce the space inside the case by seating the boolit deeper & making the OAL shorter, you will be adding pressure since you are reducing the space that will be in the case as the boolit goes in further.

What you want to do is find out the MAX OAL that "that" particular handgun will allow & then use that info to work your way down to where you want it to be, as long as you do not go shorter than manual/SAAMI OAL.

There are a couple of ways to do this & I am going to use 2 of our members here descriptions on methods as they explain it better than me to type it out.

Once you have figured out what the MAX OAL is for THAT particular handgun( every firearm can be different), then you can use that info to determine what OAL you want to use, as long as you do not go Shorter than safe manual/SAAMI specs...

Before I go further, you should look at the below illustration. It is a chart that shows how to look at the "hood" of a bbl. to do a plunk test, if you were not already aware of how to do it. ( I don't remember who knows & who doesn't know what a "plunk test" is, when I try to pass on this info... So everyone will usually get it). It is for a 45ACP, but the principle is about the same for a 9MM & other semi auto handguns about where to set the "rim" of the round as you try to determine OAL. You will have to figure out what is the right place for YOUR handgun , but this helps describe what to look for... A factory round will aid in ID-ing the place to look on the barrel if necessary... Third example from the Left is what you would like to see. :
https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/19/54/50/23/img_0411.jpg



Here are the 2 methods copied/pasted from the 2 members , Kenstone, & Dusty Bannister:

From Kenstone:

Simple way to determine max OAL
OAL
Find a fired case that the bullet just slips into with some resistance.
With the bullet barely into the case push them into the barrel with the shortest throat. You'll feel the bullet hitting the rifling, continue to push until you feel the case hit the chamber shoulder.
Carefully remove the case/bullet assembly, pinch the case/bullet juncture between you thumb/index finger, and measure the OAL with a caliper.
That measurement is the max OAL for that bullet in that barrel.

Source:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?376551-9mm-plunk-test&p=4573543&viewfull=1#post4573543


Dusty Bannister & the "Dowel Method"( Cleaning Rod method):

Cleaning rod/dowel method of finding cartridge OAL

This is what I use for my guns to determine the max OAL and this eliminates any question of the crimp, incorrect case prep, or other operator induced error.

This method works well on rifles and single shot pistols as well as Semi-autos. You can use a flat tipped cleaning rod, or flat tipped dowel rod. You will also need a sharp pointed pencil, a short dowel and a bullet sized but clean, of the type you are going to load.

For Rifles
Make sure the chamber is empty. Close the bolt, and be sure the firing pin is retracted into the bolt. Insert the dowel or cleaning rod and hold it against the face of the bolt. Mark the rod at the face of the muzzle. Remove rod, open bolt and remove it from the action. Insert the bullet into the breech and hold it snug into the rifling. While in that position insert the dowel or rod again, and with it firm against the nose of the bullet, mark the rod at the face of the muzzle.

The distance between the center of those two marks is the max cartridge OAL for that rifle, with that bullet sized to that diameter.

For Semi-autos
Remove the barrel from the slide and make sure it is clean and free of leading or other debris in the barrel and chamber. The dowel or cleaning rod needs to be longer than the barrel. Hold the barrel, muzzle up, and place the barrel hood on a flat surface like a table top. Insert the dowel or rod from the muzzle and mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove the rod and insert the bullet you intend to use into the chamber and lightly press and hold it in place with the short dowel. Place the assy muzzle up on the flat surface. Insert the rod/dowel into the muzzle so it rests on the nose of the bullet and again mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove and set the barrel aside. The distance on the center of the two lines is the cartridge OAL. Seat a dummy round to this length, or slightly shorter and begin to apply the taper crimp until the dummy passes the plunk test. This is the optimum cartridge OAL length for this bullet in this gun.

You may need to adjust the seating die to shorten the OAL if this does not feed from the magazine, but generally this will be a great fit. Remember, if you seat and crimp in one step, you might force a slight ridge ahead of the case mouth and that will screw up your seating.
Dusty

Source: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?300894-Finding-COL&p=3560663&viewfull=1#post3560663

Now, after you have used one or the other methods to check "YOUR", or "THAT" handgun for Max. OAL, then you can go from there to determine the next step.

Before you continue though, make up a "Dummy Test Round", using the Max. OAL but do not taper or roll crimp the projectile so you can adjust it shorter if necessary. You want a dummy round that you can adjust to do the following, but not too loose so it can stay in position, but at the same time not so tight that you have issues with seating it a bit deeper to find the necessary OAL for that firearm.


Next....
What, OAL is the Max. that "FEEDS" from your magazine into the chamber of "that" handgun.

You will likely have to work out in small increments , shorter & shorter, to find the Max. OAL that feeds , that fit "under" the Max. OAL for the chamber.

Once you have done that, it is time to do a "Cycle Test". Put the dummy round into the magazine, then put the magazine into the firearm, then draw back the slide to "cycle the round" into the chamber" then "Cycle the slide back as if you fired the round & see if it ejects. <<< a "Cycle Test". ( You can pull the trigger on a dummy round without issue, but it is not necessary to do the test most of the time.)

Once you have done the above, you should have found a "range" of OALs that will work for THAT firearm, & can then decide just where you want to set the OAL for THAT firearm.

If you still have room to shorten the OAL of that round to what a manual/SAAMI specs allow, then that is fine as well. You may have even more range than what you found by the Max.OAL for the chamber, as well as the Max. OAL allowed for the magazine to feed & cycle.
Just remember not to go less OAL than those suggested specs in the manual/SAAMI..

I am going to stop there as I may be overwhelming you & to be honest, I am tired of typing...
LOL
;)

Just trying to help & it will not surprise me if someone else, like Kenstone & Dusty Bannister have done, & come in & describe what I typed in a better way to understand...
;)


I hope what I just tried to do helps...

G'Luck!
:)

[Dusty Bannister]

JBinMN says it pretty clearly. All we are saying is that most chambers will be slightly different through production, and by manufacturer. The same goes with most bullet molds, and then there are the variations of cast bullets that are related to alloys, and casting temp. Then we size them to a different size than used in the manual? Then we toss in the thought that cast bullets can expand as they age harden. Way too many variables to just say one number printed in a book 9 years ago is the only correct answer.

That is why you are already lost in the weeds when you focus too much on trying to make your ammunition exactly like that in a reloading manual. Use the data in the manual as a guide, and always start at the suggested starting load and work up as accuracy and pressure signs suggest. I believe you already mentioned that you wished you had selected a bullet mold used to test the reloading data. Pretty much the same when trying to make some powder work that might not be ideal as well. Compare the data for similar bullet forms and weights and use prudent caution. You will be allright.

Thanks JB, that is a pretty clear explanation and good information for a beginning reloader that needs to have some good suggestions to solve the Cartridge OAL questions. Dusty

[JBinMN]

Thanks JB, that is a pretty clear explanation and good information for a beginning reloader that needs to have some good suggestions to solve the Cartridge OAL questions. Dusty

:drinks: No no... Thank You, sir! You were a large part of that post.

I am hoping that Russman finds that post understandable & it clears up some things for him.

Have to wait to see if he responds & lets us all know how things work out.
:)

[Russman]

Thank you both for taking the time to explain these things to me.I have learned a lot,particularly on how my gun will be different on how to find my coal.I understand that as It relates to bullets there are lots of variables such as weight,diameter etc.My main concern is with the bullet I have listed and if it’s safe to set my coal at 1.040 since that is the max I can go and still chamber a round.The books have similar weight bullets but the coals are higher.i have 3.4 grains of titegroup with a 358 sized bullet going into a case that has a coal of 1.040.Maybe I need to size my bullet down to.356 to .357 to allow me the minimum coal to be able to chamber a round??Thanks again for taking your valuable time to explain these things to me.I have learned a lot that hopefully I will be able to pass along to others as well!

[Russman]

My main concern is to much pressure in the case since the coal is below the listed recommendation.

[Russman]

Thank you all for the advice!I think I found the oal for my m&p 2.0.my barrel likes 1.110.I was reading the wrong data on the coal for this particular bullet,as hard as that was to admit,lol.A special thanks to kenstone,Dusty and Jb from Minnesota!Thank you for your service!My son just joined the Army,we need all the hero’s we can get.I will give you guys a foo up in a few weeks when I can get out and shoot em.If they are good and I don’t blow my hand off I will be reloading lots of em.

[Russman]

Oh yea.going with 3.4 grains of titegroup a coal of 1.050 and a federal small pistol primer to start with.358 seems to chamber just fine.

[ranger391xt]

I stumbled across this article not long ago. Seems interesting, but I have not yet tried the "magical load" that is mentioned.

https://www.gunworld.com/ammo/9mm-and-bullseye-the-magical-load/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[JBinMN]

Oh yea.going with 3.4 grains of titegroup a coal of 1.050 and a federal small pistol primer to start with.358 seems to chamber just fine.

I just went down to the reloading area & made up some dummy rounds to show you something. I also took a pic of a similar boolit, the Lyman 356242 120gr. for you to compare.

Here are the dummy rounds pics.:
236260 236261

The dummy rounds are OAL from Left to Right. 1.05 / 1.06 / 1.07 / 1.08 / 1.11

As you may see, the 1.05 & 1.06" are down into the case enough that the top "band" of the lube bands & grooves are below the case mouth. Once you get to the 1.07, 1.08" the top bands are from just beginning to be exposed, up to close to fully exposed at 1.11".

(BTW...the 1.05" would not work in my Lyman go-no go gauge due to the "wasp waist" bulge from seating that boolit down in that particular 9mm case that far. I did not redo the round to see if it was just a one time deal, because I was just making the dummy as an example for you. I will be pulling the boolits anyhow most likely. These were just to show the differences between OALs.)


The Load data for 356242 120gr. from 49th Lyman manual:
236262

As you can see, the Lyman 356242 120gr. is similar shaped & weight to the Lee TL356-124 -2R. so the load data, lacking a better example to use, can be used to start figuring out the data for the TL356-124-2R.

The suggested OAL for the Lyman 356242 is 1.065. So, being that the shapes & weights are very similar. THAT 1.065 is where I would start at minimum OAL. Actually, Going out further to an OAL of 1.07 or even further out to the MAX. OAL for whatever handgun chamber I can use without going out further than necessary & hitting the lands of the rifling & start my testing to try to match up to the suggested data provided.

So, at minimum, I would start by seating the similar TL356- 124-2R to at least 1.065 & No Less OAL.

I would make up 5-10 test rounds & then go shoot them over a chrony to see if the FPS reflects close to the FPS in the manual for the load data shown for the powder shown at the "START" load. If they were the lower in fps than the start load in the book, I would then know I can increase powder weight safely. Then I would do that & test some rounds again till I reached the fps of the data & establish a START load for that TL356-124-2R. Then I would WRITE IT DOWN somewhere so I can remember the data for THAT boolit & THOSE COMPONENTS used to test. ( Just like the data in the book tells you this info.)

If the fps is the same, then great & I can proceed using the START listed for that powder & components & WRITE IT DOWN, etc.

If the fps shows "faster" than the load data listed, then I will know that I need to back off on the powder a bit & then start load testing again.

The FPS velocity will reflect the pressures created in the round. So, if you are the same or lower fps than the listed velocity in the load data from the manual, then you are likely the same or lower in pressures listed. If you are going "faster" at the START load, then the pressure listed for the start load will likely be higher.

Now one thing to remember is to look & see what components & length of bbl. were used to establish the manuals load data for that projectile, in that caliber. Preferably you are using the same or similar components in your testing to try to match the data shown. If they used a 4"bbl. for testing & you are using a 3" bbl in your testing, & everything else is the same or similar, YOUR data will likely reflect a smaller fps than the longer bbl would. While that doesn't mean the pressure is a lot less than their data, it will likely reflect "some" pressure drop between the 4" & the 3" bbl. So you can try to "extrapolate" the data between the two to figure out how your bbl compares to their test bbl. length if you wanted to do so.

If you are using a longer bbl than the testing bbl. like you using a 5" bbl. & they are using a 4" bbl.. Then you have to consider that when you are testing as well. the revers of what I typed above will come into play & you may find that you develop higher velocity ( & thus pressure) sooner than the 4" test bbl. did as shown in the data.

So, not only try to match the projectile & weight to the data, we now come back to the OAL again...

Now, if you do not have a chrony to test with or have one available to you, then you may want to proceed in a different manner.

You do not want to over pressure your firearm & get a BAD result. Obviously...
So you need to proceed in "baby steps" since the only way to know where you are is by using the minimum powder charge(START) and perhaps a longer OAL than the manual lists to get started looking for a safe load that will not be over pressure.

How do ya do that? Well, you start by choosing your powder that is in the list of powders tested in the load data for the projectile you are trying to use. { The manual & data for this example below is using the Lyman 49th with a 356242 120gr in a 4" Universal receiver. Your handgun maybe a little longer or shorter or even the same , but we will just go with it being the same for the time being.))
You chose Titegroup. So, looking at the data you have a START of 3.2 grs & a MAX. of 3.8 grains. Where should you start?

3.2 grains... The MINIMUM in the load data. Now that is for a 4" bbl. if you have a 3" bbl. up to 4" , fine... If you have a 4+" bbl., you may want to reduce the START load a bit(5-10%) & then work up from there. But reckoning you are the same or below 4"bbl., we will proceed like that...

Now, the OAL for that load data for that similar projectile is 1.065" in that 4" Univ. Rec..

Do you think it is wise to just jump to something less than that length OAL before testing? Like 1.04 or 1.05 or even 1.06" in OAL?

Well, you might, I wouldn't.
We are dealing with things that can go boom in a controlled manner, if we do things right, or in an Uncontrolled manner & sometimes have BAD & catastrophic results. So ,let us proceed wisely & safely with THAT handgun & start our testing in the safest manner we can find.

So, it would be prudent to use 3.2gr of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.065 Minimum & test from there. ( I would likely start with 1.070" myself. Better safe than sorry... ;) )
Your S&W M&P 2.0 likely has a 4.25" bbl., so there is no issues there, since it is very similar to the testing length of the 4" U.Rec. used by Lyman to get the data.

Then proceed to test with, or without a chrony looking for signs of higher than normal pressures as you go up in powder till you reach the FPS speed/accuracy/whatever you are seeking, but I suggest you do not exceed the MAX. load of 3.8gr. of Titiegroup to find out.

Russman, you can do as ya like, but I would suggest you do what I just took the time to type out & start low & work up.

3.2 gr. Titegroup at 1.065" - 1.070" OAL or (even more if ya like up to your 1.11" max chamber OAL)) is my suggestion for that handgun to START.

I will stop at that, as this has been a long post. I just wanted to make sure that this sort of info was mentioned if anyone else is reading this topic.

I might mention that it is one reason that I try not to pass on loads to anyone in specifics. What can happen is someone can take the numbers I give & then go out & use them & cause damage to their firearm, themselves, or even worse, Others who are nearby who did not do the loading of the round(s).

What works for some at THEIR own risk, may not work for you in your firearm, but you get the results of that RISK, if you do not do what you should to prevent issue(s).

OK, enough said... No more preachin'... Suit yourself(selves) & do as ya like.
:)

Be safe & G'Luck!
:)

ETA: An Addendum to the above about measuring if boolit was swaged/sized by the case in the loading process.

If you want to do so, you can "measure" to check for boolit swaging/sizing by measuring the case(s) you are using to load. ( Each mnfr may have different case specs for interior case wall thickness. One reason to try to use the same mnfr brass when ya can instead of mixed mnfr brass)
When you are using all the same mnfr headstamp, you can take your calipers & measure down the case to where the boolits base will be & get the thickness of the brass at that point & then add that number together twice + the desired boolit diameter to get the diameter of the loaded cartridge. If you are under that measure ment after taper crimping, you have swaged/sized the boolit down.

Example. if case wall thickness at the base of the boolit is, .032", then both sides would be (2 x .032) = .064, then add the desired boolit diameter of .358 ( .064+.358) = .422" . So the measurement at the outside of the finished cartridge should be .422" at the location on the outside of the case at where the boolit base would be inside the case.
If the case wall at the mouth of the cartridge is .027, then you would take .027 x 2 for both sides of the case & add the desired boolit diameter to that, (2X .027) .054 + .358 = .412 total diameter at the mouth of the finished cartridge.

If we used "CWT" as "Case Wall Thickness", and "BD" as "Boolit Diameter", and "CD" as "Cartridge Diameter", the algebraic equation for those measurements described above would be, 2(CWT) + BD = CD.

I did not cover "brass springback", since I did not think it necessary at this time, nor "plunk testing", in this post. ( See post#21 for "Plunk Test" info)
It is something you should do, preferably using your bbl. for the latter, instead of a "Go- No Go gauge" for at least the firt time.
( A Go - No Go" gauge can be used after verifying the plunk test to the bbl first & making sure they both coincide for that handgun. They "should" be the same, but sometimes you may want to check for "peace of mind".
You already "know" it will fit the bbl, if you plunk test using the bbl. The gauge is to not have to remove the bbl to check your cartridges. ;) )

OK... Hopefully I did not forget anything to try to help out, for now...
;)

[JBinMN]

I stumbled across this article not long ago. Seems interesting, but I have not yet tried the "magical load" that is mentioned.

https://www.gunworld.com/ammo/9mm-and-bullseye-the-magical-load/

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Interesting... I do not see where the guy mentioned OAL changes due to boolit weight, etc..

I did see where he said just the opposite, and I quote:

You want a subsonic load to feed your suppressed pistol? Just replace the 125-grain bullet with a 147-grain one. For suppressor use, I’d avoid the cast or swaged lead bullet, just to keep the cleaning down. So, a jacketed, plated or coated 147-grain, and you’ll be doing 925 to 950 fps.

If you wish, this can also be your practice or competition load, even though you have had a bump up in power factor (PF). PF is a measure of momentum, so you gain more with more weight, despite the slight decrease in velocity.

You won’t even have to change the seating die in your loading press for overall length. Whatever it is for the 125 LRN, it will work for the 147 PRN. If you use a flat-nose bullet, use that design seater for each weight.

I personally think that is bogus & bad advice...

Even in the pic he used of the different projectiles,
https://www.gunworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/GW-1805-AMMO411-02-1024x682.png
one can see that there would need to be some adjustment in OAL to fit what ever firearm one was using to the the different lengths of the projectiles so the base of the projectiles remained the same. If one made the OAl the same for all the longer projectiles would be seating deeper into the case & rising pressures due to that smaller case volume to fit the powder.

I understand what he is trying to say, but there are enough people out there who are not familiar with what we have been discussing & might just try to seat a longer 147gr. projectile into a case the same OAL as one of the shorter projectiles like the 125gr. & have A BAD deal happen. ( Even if they could fit the longer one that far down into the case & make it fit the chamber.)

I think his being vague or not mentioning the OAL changes is a bit lackadaisical, if he is not taking into account that there are those who could take him at his words & try to fire off a round like the long ones seated to the OAL of the shorter ones & have a BAD event happen.

Anyway, Thanks! for sharing the article & sometime I may just do some testing along the same lines as his article just to see how it works. Different OALs of course.
;)

{BTW, I did some testing for another member here with the 9MM & different boolit weights up to the 158gr. SWC over a chrony. I had to adjust the OALs to fit each projectile as they got larger. So my mentioning doing such testing is not as rare as it may seem to some folks. ;) I actually enjoy getting out & doing such things on occasion in my search to know more... LOL }

[JBinMN]

Russman,

One more thing came to mind after I last posted that I thought I would remind you about...

The 9mm cases are tapered. When you go to put a "boolit" into the case, unlike jacketed bullets, the case can size down the boolit and even though you put a boolit in, at lets say, .358, as you mentioned, that boolit, as you seat it deeper, can get "swaged down" to a smaller diameter.
So, your .358 before it goes into the case, can get swaged down to .357 or even less.

This happens the deeper you seat the boolit, particularly if you are using the expander plug that is in the expander die from the factory which is likely set up in size for jacket bullets & not cast lead boolits.

If you do not have a larger expander plug, such as a 38 S&W expander plug which is of a different size than the 9MM factory plug( it is a touch larger & deeper/longer), or one of the NOE Exp. plugs in a Lee Universal Expander Die, (NOE plugs are specially made to help prevent this "swaging"), you may find you are making your boolits smaller than you would like & may experience leading, &/or accuracy issues, etc., due to the smaller diameter of the possibly swaged boolit.

Also keep in mind that your taper crimp die can also swage the boolit down if it is set for too much crimp & do the same "swaging" of the lead boolit.

Keep this in mind for the future.

One thing you can do is, once you decide on what OAL you are going to use, is to make a "dummy" round up using the brass you are intending to use( different Mnfrs have different specs so they are not always the same dimensions in thickness , etc.), then measure the diameter of your boolit(s) that you are going to use before placing it in the dummy case & seating it. Then do not taper crimp the dummy round, but pull the boolit & check the measurement again...

You may find that it has swaged down. If so, then you are going to have to do something to prevent that swaging ( like get a different expander/plug setup like mentioned above). That will alleviate some of the possible issues like leading that can occur from the "sizing down/swaging" of your boolits.

If it does not swage down, Good! then you can go to the next step.


Seat another dummy round after you have fixed any issue with the expander die( if necessary) & using whatever seating die setup you now have to use, and taper crimp the round.
You will want to set your taper crimp as light as possible/necessary. Only enough so that when you press the nose of the boolit against something hard, like the edge of your bench, the boolit does not go further into the case. The other test is to put the boolit in a boolit pulling inertia hammer( if ya have one) and try a real hard smack to try to unseat the boolit & check the measurement for OAL to see if it changed to a longer setting.

If the boolit doesn't move either time, your taper crimp should be fine. If the boolit moves by pushing in, or trying to get it to move out, then make the taper crimp tighter by screwing the die into the press a little bit more until the boolit does not move in either direction in or out.

Once you have done this & set the taper crimp die only enough to see if it will hold the boolit from moving, you can then test the boolit for swaging once again.

Pull the taper crimped boolit & measure it. THAT is the last step in the loading process to find out if the boolit has been reduced in diameter to an undesired one.

If when pulled after crimping, and the boolit has been "swaged" smaller, you will have to re set the taper crimp die to a setting that satisfies the diameter you wish the fired boolit to have when it leaves the chamber when fired, but still will not move in/out. Maybe just a little bit "looser" in crimp but still satisfies the "in/out" criteria.

It can be a frustrating process, but it can be done. Have patience.
;)

I hope that my description on what to do is not confusing.

I will try to summarize in a short form.

1) Expander die plug must be big enough to prevent sizing/swaging the lead boolit by either setting the expander deep enough & being big enough to not reduce the boolit size, or by getting an expander plug that will do so.

2) Taper crimp die must be set to hold the boolit in place without swaging the boolit down when applying crimp.

If you accomplish those things you should have only lube issues that might come up since you have made the "fit" work for that handgun.

Well, I hope I explained that understandably enough. It just occurred to me that perhaps you were not aware of such things & would be back asking about them sometime in the future.
;)

If I was "preaching to the choir" & ya already knew this stuff... then maybe it will help someone else who comes in later & reads here.
;)

G'Luck! & Be safe!
:)

[John Van Gelder]

Loading for the 9mm is a bit of a learning curve. There is a lot of load data out there, any of the loads listed for a 124 gr, bullet should work, The real critical issue is keeping the correct cartridge over all length, I have several Lee molds and they all tend to throw a slightly heavier bullet than the listed weight. My 120 TC bullet is right at 124, the 125 RNFP is 128 both in hard alloy. Always a good idea is to slug the barrel, 9mm can range from .355 to .358, and even larger in some older imported guns. The older Lyman manuals recommended sizing to .358 for the 9mm.

There is an online Lee loading manual, at the moment I do not have the URL. A good investment would be to buy the latest Lee manual, As always start off light, the minimum that reliably functions and work up..

As JbinMN states, it is quite easy to resize (under size) your bullets when you seat them into the cases. When using softer alloy I was having some real accuracy issues, I pulled some of the bullets and they had been resized down to .354, well below the .356 bore diameter of my Ruger 9mm.

With soft alloy I have gone to using unsized cases.

[Dusty Bannister]

John, I have one of the older Lee manuals and note that there is nothing to suggest a cartridge AOL. Many other manuals do offer suggestions and state the OAL used to develop their data with their test equipment and components. The big issues raised by new to cast bullet reloaders seems to be not comparing data with other manuals and thinking if you do not repeat exactly what is in the manual, bad things happen.

It is pretty clear if you review the data that starting at the suggested starting load will be less than the max load for other bullets of comparable weight in that caliber. Even a bullet that is 15-20 grains heavier, has a suggested starting load that is less than the max for the lighter bullets.

Perhaps the new folks will remove the tunnel vision goggles and utilize the information in the reloading manuals a little more wisely.

[JBinMN]

Loading for the 9mm is a bit of a learning curve. There is a lot of load data out there, any of the loads listed for a 124 gr, bullet should work, The real critical issue is keeping the correct cartridge over all length, I have several Lee molds and they all tend to throw a slightly heavier bullet than the listed weight. My 120 TC bullet is right at 124, the 125 RNFP is 128 both in hard alloy. Always a good idea is to slug the barrel, 9mm can range from .355 to .358, and even larger in some older imported guns. The older Lyman manuals recommended sizing to .358 for the 9mm.

There is an online Lee loading manual, at the moment I do not have the URL. http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/Modern%20Reloading%202nd%20Edition%20by%20Richard% 20Lee%20-%20ocr.pdf A good investment would be to buy the latest Lee manual, As always start off light, the minimum that reliably functions and work up..

As JbinMN states, it is quite easy to resize (under size) your bullets when you seat them into the cases. When using softer alloy I was having some real accuracy issues, I pulled some of the bullets and they had been resized down to .354, well below the .356 bore diameter of my Ruger 9mm.

With soft alloy I have gone to using unsized cases. << I'd bet ya meant "unsized boolits" instead of "unsized cases". ;)

I added comments to your post above John Van Gelder, in Blue to highlight.

The link to an online Lee 2nd edition manual was added above, as well as what I reckon was a bit of a "typo" in what word(s) I suspect ya wanted to use.

Hope ya don't mind what I did. Just trying to help.
:)
----------------------------
From the link above ( in Blue): http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/Modern%20Reloading%202nd%20Edition%20by%20Richard% 20Lee%20-%20ocr.pdf


The 9MM load data in the .pdf Lee 2nd Edition starts on page 530.

The 9MM 124gr. Lead Boolit data starts on page 534

It looks like this:
124 Grain Lead Bullet


Powder Type StartVolumeGrains CC AutoDisk LeeDipper FPS NEVEREXCEED FPS Press Units Min OAL


V-3N37 5.5 .50 .49 .5 1171 6.0 1234 NA NA 1.142
V-N340 4.8 .51 .49 .5 1155 5.3 1230 NA NA 1.142
V-N350 5.1 .50 . 49 .5 1148 5.6 1205 NA NA 1.142
V-N330 4.5 .49 .49 NA 1142 4.9 1186 NA NA 1.142
V-N320 3.8 .46 .46 NA 1086 4.2 1138 NA NA 1.142
WIN ACTION PI 4.4 .36 .34 NA 955 5.1 1080 33200 PSI 1.095
wSUPERFLD 4.0 .34 .34 .3 945 4.7 1055 27300 PSI 1.095
WIN 540 5.0 .34 .34 .3 950 5.7 1050 33500 PSI 1.095
WIN 231 3.3 .31 .30 .3 910 4.0 1035 32900 PSI 1.095
wSUPERLIT 3.4 .29 .27 NA 920 3.8 985 33500 PSI 1.095


~ NOTE the Suggested Minimum OALs listed on the right column~

[John Van Gelder]

JBinMN

I did mean unsized cases, there is a lot of variation in 9mm brass, and with some careful sorting you can find brass that gives an adequately tight fit, without under sizing the bullets.

There are some caveats about using the 9mm load data in the Lyman 44th manual, I would not recommend anyone use the data for the 158 grain bullet listed there, and as stated above there are no COLs listed.

My first experience loading for the 9mm, was back in 1968, I was in the service then and my "boss" a Master Chief had a "liberated" Nazi Luger, that he wanted to shoot some cast bullets through, at the time the only bullets I had were 158 grn SWCs. I loaded them to the minimum listed load in the then relatively new Lyman 44 manual. They functioned just fine in that old Luger. The loads in the manual were fired through a S&W 9mm, but I am not sure the newer "plastic" guns would hold up.

I found and interesting article dealing with Ruger's early attempts to get into the center fire semi auto market. http://www.grantcunningham.com/2014/05/ed-harris-loading-cast-bullets-in-the-9mm-lugerparabellum/

[JBinMN]

John,

Yes I am aware of the different cases by mnfr that have differences, and I myself try to keep cases separated by headstamp for similar purposes like what you mentioned.

I was thinking you meant unsized "lead "boolits", so that if you put them in " as cast" & larger than sized boolits, you would be trying to compensate for the case possibly swaging/sizing the boolits down too much. Example being putting a .358 into a case, hoping it would only get swaged/sized down to .357", to fit in a .356" bore, thus still keeping the boolit .001" or more over bore for lead cast boolits for fit.

Anyway, Thanks for returning & clarifying for me.
:)

In regard to the link, I will go read it in a little bit. Thanks for sharing it!
:)

[John Van Gelder]

I did not do much with the 9mm for some time, but have gotten back into it. It has been a lot of fun, and pretty cheap shooting, using scrounged lead it is on a par with the cost of .22LR ammo. I have a Lee mold that drops a 95 gr, RNFP bullet with a pretty large meplat, I load those over 2.5 grn of BE, they will not function the action, makes the brass easy to find, they give me right around 700 fps according to my chronograph and are just the thing for small game.

[Russman]

THANKS JB,your posts have given me greater insight once again.I will definitely give you an update on my loads.I actually have a 5” barrel so I reduced the powder load of 3.2 down 5 percent.That puts me at 3.04 grains which I will round down to 3.0 grains of titegroup with an oal of 1.070. I currently don’t have a chrono so I’m just gonna shoot em,look at the primers,make sure everything is cycling ok and I will get back with you.I am also gonna put that light taper crimp on and use my bullet puller to check diameter of the bullet.Thats another great idea I diddnt think of.I will get back with you in a couple weeks with an update.I will also load 3.1 and 3.2 grains in 10 or 15 of each if my initial testing is good with the 3.0 grains.THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!!

[JBinMN]

:)
:drinks:

YW!

:)

It is great when/if all of us can help out one another here at the CB.GL forum!

Makes it an even better place to be!

Be sure to check back & keep us all updated on yur doins'!
:)

[Russman]

Quick update on my loads...I ran several test loads ranging from 3.0 grains to 3.2 gr.with a coal of 1.075-1.090 they all shot well but the only issue was with 3.0 grains on the last shot the slide didn’t lock back.3.0 with a coal of 1.090 is a weak load but with 1.075 it was ok.3.1 had the best grouping.I will run some more test with a bit more powder and a coal of aroun1.080 due to the fact it is at the top of the first lube groove.Overall a success in part because I still have all of my fingers!Thanks again for all of your help.I will have many,many hours of enjoyment out of these boolits I’m sure.I have 5 to 600 more pounds of lead to make boolits with.CHEERS!

[JBinMN]

Rock on! & Thanks for the update!
:drinks:

:)