Hard White Metal Silver Plate - alloy

[RogerDat]

Found a bowl that was silver plate over white metal, soft to bend. Touch mark has "Hard White Metal" under it which could be a tin alloy such as EPBM (Electro Plated Britannia Metal) but could also contain zinc according to Wikipedia.

Anyone have any experience with "Hard White Metal" as a source of tin? I once didn't pick up a bunch of silver plate stamped EPBM only to find out that was over 80% tin. So I decided to take a $1 gamble on this bowl.

I'm going to melt it separate and send a sample in next batch of samples I have to be tested. will post back here what I find out about this label, and the company in the touch mark. Which I have to clean to get a decent picture of.

[jsizemore]

It can be anything. Melting separate and testing is the safe bet.

[skeettx]

Hard White Metal is also a company

http://www.abesilverman.com/A627.html

[dondiego]

Found a bowl that was silver plate over white metal, soft to bend. Touch mark has "Hard White Metal" under it which could be a tin alloy such as EPBM (Electro Plated Britannia Metal) but could also contain zinc according to Wikipedia.

Anyone have any experience with "Hard White Metal" as a source of tin? I once didn't pick up a bunch of silver plate stamped EPBM only to find out that was over 80% tin. So I decided to take a $1 gamble on this bowl.

I'm going to melt it separate and send a sample in next batch of samples I have to be tested. will post back here what I find out about this label, and the company in the touch mark. Which I have to clean to get a decent picture of.

Have you tried the muriatic acid test for zinc?

[RogerDat]

Have you tried the muriatic acid test for zinc?
No I haven't. Good call! I picked up some muriatic acid for just that purpose at the hardware store and forgot all about it. Reminds me I need to check if I'm wearing my shoes on correct feet and pants. Pants would be important. :-) Man the CRS is getting bad sometimes. Will test tonight and let folks know what I find out from the acid test.

[lightman]

What are you using for acid? A friend gave me a gallon of the swimming pool treatment stuff and I use a glass eye dropper from Walgreens.

[dondiego]

The swimming pool acid should be muriatic. What I don't know is the percentage of zinc needed in an alloy to be able to react effectively with the acid to bubble. Also, what is the maximum percentage of zinc in an alloy that ruins it for casting?

[RogerDat]

I think this is swimming pool acid. Picked it up at Ace Hardware. I don't know how much Zn ruins it but even a few percent makes the melt "off" a bit. Not unusable but slushy on top. I think BangerJim did some experiments and found he could still cast up to around 4% Zn using a hotter melt.

I used some contaminated tin that was 9% zinc to get a batch of WW's up to 2% Sn and the melt was a little bit funky to pour into ingots. Does seem a little harder than normal WW + 2% Sn would be. I was thinking might use for buckshot. Round ball is an easy cast and forgiving mold. I was thinking the fairly high Sn percentage would offset the Zn tendency to not flow as well. Might be ok, or not. No hurry, it sits next to my bench with big Zinc Contaminated written on the ingots and waits for me to get around to it.

Since I made those WW+Sn+Zn ingots I took that Sn & 9% Zn alloy and did a sulfur treatment using garden sulfur. Going to send in a sample to BNE to see how much Zn was removed. Just did it as an experiment, I wanted to see how effective mixing in and burning off sulfur actually is. I was burning scrap wood in the back away from the houses where sulfur smoke wouldn't be a problem so.... I figure 5# of Sn would make it a worthwhile rescue if it works. Seem to recall sulfur removes tin but since this is mostly tin.... maybe what is left will be tin without zinc.

Wasn't able to get out to the garage and do the deed checking with acid last night but expect to tonight or sometime this weekend.

[RogerDat]

Acid didn't bubble. So I melted. The bowl certainly melted like pewter. Hit with a propane torch it just sort of vanishes in front of the flame. In the pot it went "splush" all at once as soon as it hit melt point. Poured like pewter. I'll still have it tested to be sure but this Silver Plate on "Hard White Metal" seems like it is pewter or high tin alloy. I think that I'm up 1.4 lbs. of tin for a buck.

I also put some muriatic acid on an ingot that I know has a small amount of zinc and it formed little bubbles but it was not a very pronounced or robust reaction. I had to use the reading glasses to see it. I think that stuff is around or below 1%.

[dondiego]

Acid didn't bubble. So I melted. The bowl certainly melted like pewter. Hit with a propane torch it just sort of vanishes in front of the flame. In the pot it went "splush" all at once as soon as it hit melt point. Poured like pewter. I'll still have it tested to be sure but this Silver Plate on "Hard White Metal" seems like it is pewter or high tin alloy. I think that I'm up 1.4 lbs. of tin for a buck.

I also put some muriatic acid on an ingot that I know has a small amount of zinc and it formed little bubbles but it was not a very pronounced or robust reaction. I had to use the reading glasses to see it. I think that stuff is around or below 1%.

That is good to know that the reaction occurs at such a low zinc percentage.

[kevin c]

I have had very small bubbles form slowly on the surface of a Pb-Sb-Sn alloy that was analyzed and had no Zn in it per the report. I haven't tested anything that caused the fizzy type of bubbling I read about here.

[Peregrine]

White metal=petwer

[jsizemore]

^Sometimes^

[RogerDat]

I have had some stamped pewter that had zinc furnishings on it. Handles or trim or feet for example. On one occasion I was hitting the items with a propane torch to chop them into the pot and I torched the wrong item, contaminated a batch. Nothing like knowing you have $40 or more of pewter that is ***** from zinc to make one get more cautious.

For that matter melting down some block tin cooling lines I found that a few parts were "hard" metal which did not readily melt into the rest of the tin alloy. I think those parts are zinc so I have to use care in melting that source to avoid melting the zinc in.

Generally if I find silver plate on white metal rather than copper or similar metal I'm going to be interested based on past items.

[Peregrine]

^Sometimes^

At the very least "usually" or "typically" surely.

What sort of exceptions have you found? I'm batting 100% with anything I've found marked white metal. Usually all silver plated, and mainly sugar bowl and creamer type pieces.

[RogerDat]

I have had very small bubbles form slowly on the surface of a Pb-Sb-Sn alloy that was analyzed and had no Zn in it per the report. I haven't tested anything that caused the fizzy type of bubbling I read about here. Why can't I ever find a zinc WW when I want one? Next chance I get I'm going to test one of those after hitting it with a grinder or file to get to clean metal.

[Traffer]

I would call it pewter and go with it. If it melts that easy...TIN ...bingo.

[jsizemore]

At the very least "usually" or "typically" surely.

What sort of exceptions have you found? I'm batting 100% with anything I've found marked white metal. Usually all silver plated, and mainly sugar bowl and creamer type pieces.

I've found any number of these discussed on this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal

Very few pieces I've found were dependably equal to pewter. If you've had good luck I'm happy for you. I've NEVER wanted to mess up a 100lb pot of known pewter with white metal, EPWM on a guess.

[Petander]

I have had very small bubbles form slowly on the surface of a Pb-Sb-Sn alloy that was analyzed and had no Zn in it per the report. I haven't tested anything that caused the fizzy type of bubbling I read about here.

I had my alloy tested because coatings didn't stick,no zn but some niobium instead. And copper.

It sizzles very little bubbles and very slowly but the alloy changes to much darker colour overnight. I use 30% HCL. My cast boolits look like chromed steel and stay like that for years. After HCL soak they are much darker and coat very well.

235871

[Traffer]

"...cast boolits look like chromed steel and alloy contains nobium"
Now I am envious. I want chromed steel looking boolits. And nobium in my alloy.
:bigsmyl2:

[Traffer]

"...cast boolits look like chromed steel and alloy contains nobium"
Now I am envious. I want chromed steel looking boolits. And nobium in my alloy.
:bigsmyl2:
And OH,
By the way ...sisu

[Peregrine]

I had my alloy tested because coatings didn't stick,no zn but some niobium instead. And copper.

It sizzles very little bubbles and very slowly but the alloy changes to much darker colour overnight. I use 30% HCL. My cast boolits look like chromed steel and stay like that for years. After HCL soak they are much darker and coat very well.

235871

Niobium eh? I have never encountered an alloy containing that, spare for some superconductor stuff. Where did you source that from?
Also those are strange looking boolits, what are they for and how did you make them?

You've got a whole lotta strange going on there. :veryconfu

[Ginsing]

Those are fragmenting shotgun slugs.

[Petander]

Niobium eh? I have never encountered an alloy containing that, spare for some superconductor stuff. Where did you source that from?
Also those are strange looking boolits, what are they for and how did you make them?

You've got a whole lotta strange going on there. :veryconfu

I mixed a ton of alloy some 15 years ago, WW & monotype. Made big 10% and 30% ingots. It's pretty high antimony content with 4% tin. But it doesn't coat well.

Slugs,yeah. A Svarog mould.

235906

[Traffer]

For those who are interested in these slugs, I found this:https://youtu.be/5s2D_8ufCJM

[Drm50]

I worked in a Marx Toy plant back in 60s when toy guns were still popular. They had large injection moulds that
had pots built in them for White Metal. One of my jobs was to keep pots up to level by adding ingots. This stuff had high percentage of zinc. I wasn't involved in tech aspects and the metal was used as shipped. They did check shipments and refused some metal because it didn't meet the properties they needed for casting. The problem metal had to much zinc content and wouldn't fill out the finer detail in the mold.

[Traffer]

I worked in a Marx Toy plant back in 60s when toy guns were still popular. They had large injection moulds that
had pots built in them for White Metal. One of my jobs was to keep pots up to level by adding ingots. This stuff had high percentage of zinc. I wasn't involved in tech aspects and the metal was used as shipped. They did check shipments and refused some metal because it didn't meet the properties they needed for casting. The problem metal had to much zinc content and wouldn't fill out the finer detail in the mold.
They used to call "pot metal, white metal, spelter etc.," all the same metal. It was very easy to mold. The auto industry used to make carburetors with it. And yes it was mostly zinc. They threw everything in a big pot and what came out was "pot metal". Until Carter started using aluminum. The famous Carter "AFB" was aluminum. "Aluminum Four Barrel".

[Petander]

Nowadays it's easy to find out. Here is mine:

235952.

$20 for peace of mind.

[RogerDat]

There is "Pewter" which is stamped and falls within known parameters for its alloy content. Can vary a bit depending on age, use, source country etc. but will fall within a fairly distinct range of known alloy metals. Mostly tin, antimony, copper in varying amounts, with older (pre. 1970's) potentially having lead. Lead may also be in items not coming into contact with food or body. I think I have had some picture frames that had a lead content. Stamping was just the letters to spell out pewter, have also had some that didn't say pewter and tested out at 88% tin but with some lead so... Yes separate batches are a good thing. The stuff from Asia and Holland has all seemed to be higher tin content in my own experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter

Then there are other items such as silver plate stamped EPBM (Elctro Plated Britannia Metal) which similar to pewter, very high tin but having it's own alloy metals and percentages to warrant that EPBM designation rather than being designated as just pewter even if it is essentially a type of pewter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_metal

EPWM (Electro Plated White Metal) has much less information. It seems it is a somewhat generic marking. This little blurb what I found in article on identification of silver as different from silver plate.


White Metal Marks
White metal contains no silver. It was developed as an inexpensive silver and silver plate substitute with the advantage that it does not tarnish. Usually the alloy consists of 60% copper, 20% zinc and 20% nickel. Nickel silver is used as the base metal in higher quality silver plated flatware. The advantage is that the metal is harder, less mailable and wear spots are not as noticeable as on brass or copper. Typical white metal marks are as follows:
https://2.thesilverwareguy.com/silver-sterling-plate-stamp-marks/

However in modern usage "white metal" may well be a high tin alloy.
https://contenti.com/pewter-casting-metal-and-tin-alloys

I actually have some ingots that look like that. I bought them because they had no tarnish, hit with a propane torch they melted like tin so... one of my better days of scrounging I must say.

Bottom line there is always a risk in silver plate of getting the zinc alloy "white metal". One quick check might be how easy is it to bend? I would expect that a copper, zinc, and nickel core will be hard and stiff, while the tin based white metal would be easy to bend at the edges. So for me... if the price and weight of the item meant I would buy it if tin based white metal I would try bending an edge with my thumb. If it bends buy, if doesn't bend then no harm and I just put it back. My candy dish passed that test so it came home with me.

[Peregrine]

I went on a mini pewter scavenging expedition, not my usual fruitful route, and paid special attention to peices marked as white metal (E.P.W.M). All of them upon careful examination were dead easy tells for being pewter, I only ended up buying one because the price wasn't quite right on the rest of them but I was pretty sure the composition was high tin and very similar to pewter on all of them.

I think that if you stick to serviceware and use some discretion you'll find good mainly tin alloys. Other trinkets, you may get into potentially questionable alloys, but quality serviceware is a good bet.

Here's my hoard for today (okay the pitcher was earlier this week, but it's a solid 1lb 12oz for $6), the tray (?) is the one marked white metal. Very obviously mainly tin.

https://i.imgur.com/h86zMOt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RjWAswu.jpg

Here's my secondary collection of pewter here at the moment, some is nicer and i'm not melting it. This is in addition to my primary stash where I do my melting, all the really good stuff i'd never melt at dream of melting at my parents, the quaternary hoard I have in my car, and like 50 pounds in ingots.


https://i.imgur.com/j1nUiMO.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/2z6JJa3.jpg



Here's a fun one, I have two like this (other one without a dent but has an engraving). I know this is a Christian forum, can I be banned for posting pictures of pewter? :bigsmyl2:


https://i.imgur.com/1kRnPNr.jpg





Also you can see me reflected in one of the bowl, hello! :)

[Traffer]

I got some really cheap pewter at the local good will. It is WAAAAYYYYY to nice to melt for stinkin boolits. If it comes to it I will use poorly cast boolits before melting down nice pewter. Once you alloy it, the chances are it will never come out of the lead again. Use range lead there is enough tin in it.

[Traffer]

I would melt the one with the porn on it. That is not fine work at all.

[RogerDat]

I sort of thought the whole collection of pictures was supposed to be "casting porn" :bigsmyl2:

I have a few pieces I didn't melt and kept but wife doesn't really especially like pewter and gets tired of a piece so pretty soon it ends up on my bench in the garage. Sister likes pewter (has some fake pewtex) but her house is stuffed so no more going there. I do sometimes sell nicer pieces to local antique places IF the price they will pay (wholesale) is as high or higher than the tin value. I have enough tin on hand for my casting needs so am able to consider the price I would sell it for as the value. Takes a bit of work for me to established retail price that indicates a fair wholesale price so unless it seems especially nice or is black with age I don't go through that.

I have a mug with a whistle in the handle I keep just because it is neat. The nekkid broad handle I would probably have to keep out of view on the reloading bench but it would make an interesting conversation piece when people come over for reloading type activities. Not sure how I would explain to daughter's though, some conversations I'm probably better off avoiding. Guess I should be glad I found a whistle handle. [smilie=1:

The rest of that Midas size hoard of tin is impressive. I would guess it reflects a consistent and frequent searching, you don't find what you are not looking for. I would also note the more "high end" the touch mark or product is provides an indication that the "White Metal" is likely to be pewter. Silver plate doesn't brag about being on zinc.

If the price wasn't too much and the item seemed like pewter that bends easily I would (and have) gambled. If I lose I lose $5 if I win I gain 1.5 lbs. of pewter. If the examination tips the odds in my favor I'll take that gamble. Large purchase like a box from an estate sale for $50 not so sure I would take it. But then I don't have to, consistent searching over several years has built up enough I can pass on the questionable stuff unless it is cheap.