Cracked S&W FC?

[mattd]

Just bought my first S&W. A 4” model 19-5. It was from a coworker, and I thought a pretty good deal. It was a pretty quick transaction considering we know each other well and I certainly trust him.

But now that I’m looking closer I’m wondering if this has a cracked forcing cone. There’s not a lot of FC erosion. But at the 6 o’clock position there is this mark. Dosent look like a thru and thru crack. More like a divet that’s as deep as the FC bevel.

There’s a bit of fire cutting on the top strap, but nothing I’d worry about. But this divet makes me a bit cautious.

235471

[TNsailorman]

Sounds like someone has been shooting a lot of +P or high pressure loads. Not the first K frame I have seen cracked at the thinnest point, the 6 o'clock position of the forcing cone. One of the reasons that S&W brought out the L frame as I have been told. Have you checked with S&W about it. Not repaired, the frame will go next just below that break on the forcing cone. My limited experience with this problem anyway, james

[Walks]

Check out David Reiss at the Cast Bullet Association, He does a lot of S&W repair work, I believe he is a Factory Trained Armorer.

castbulletassoc.org

[Hickory]

Yessiree, that horse has been run hard & put away wet.

[Thin Man]

I had a similar failure with a M19, blue 6", back in the early 1970's when this model was still in production. The frame fractured at the 6:00 position (relative to the bore). I spoke with S&W and they asked me to ship it back to them for examination. Once they saw the fracture they replaced the frame, even numbered it the same as the original frame, and returned it to me. I told them I had been firing my own handloads, commonly a 125 grain jacketed or cast bullet, fast and loud. They answered this particular combination was wrecking high numbers of the M19 revolvers and suggested I go to a heavier boolit and back off the pressure. Since then I have become more responsible when loading for this revolver and a similar 6" M66.

That was then, this is now. Your revolver is out of production and the factory has no more replacement parts available to correct it. Your best hope is to locate a take-off barrel to replace the one in your revolver. Even after that you should remember that your revolver has been stressed high enough to open up the forcing cone, and possibly the frame along with it. In a previous edition of Handloader magazine an article dedicated to loading the .357 Magnum caliber isolated out the M19 for reduced loads, relative to the N-frame and similar larger frame size firearms, because of repeated issues of barrel and frame failures. Load discretely for the M19 and it will stay with you a long time.

[Petrol & Powder]

Based on the photo in the OP, YES that forcing cone is cracked. It also appears that there is a lot of erosion around the edge of the breach face.

The solution is to fit a new barrel.

And I agree with Hickory, that horse has been rode hard.

[JRD]

Mattd,
DO NOT SHOOT THE GUN. It will only cause further damage and may scrap the frame in the event that the frame isn't already beyond repair.

Did your coworker knowingly sell you a gun that is unsafe to shoot? If he didn't disclose the forcing cone, you should check back with him. You mention knowing him well, so he likely wouldn't want to sell you a gun that's not shootable.

The gun is either in need of some costly repairs or is already beyond repair and only can be salvaged for parts. As Thin Man said, determining if the frame is scrap depends on whether the cracked forcing cone has damaged the frame threads.

Since this is your first S&W, I'm assuming you don't have the knowledge to make that evaluation yourself and will need the gun evaluated by a gunsmith who is knowledgeable with S&W's. You may need to pay for that evaluation to be made before even deciding what to do.

My honest opinion is that a shot out Model 19 isn't the best candidate for your first S&W. There are lots of other S&W revolvers out there. Leave this one for someone who is experienced enough to repair or salvage it.

Jason

[Drm50]

At worst a rebarrel. I have seen a couple 19s with cracked forcing cones. Worse than yours. Takes a lot of HV
110-120gr bullet loads to do this.

[Guesser]

That is the way my 19-3 cracked and it was less than 20 years old when it happened. It took 90 years for this Colt Army Special to crack.

[TNsailorman]

It is not just that the 110 and 125 grain bullets do the cracking, it is the much higher chamber pressure associated with them that does the damage. jamess

[mattd]

That is the way my 19-3 cracked and it was less than 20 years old when it happened. It took 90 years for this Colt Army Special to crack.

Mines no where close to this level of cracking. Would mine have some remaining life if it was only cast bullets, 147-185g. Some magnum hunting loads?

[arlon]

If your co worker is really a friend, he should be happy to refund you your money. Looks like he had his fun with it.

[samari46]

Couple things like the forcing cone cracks. Obviously if you continued to use it (not recommended) is that it will get worse. You are letting high speed gas get between the barrel and the frame threads. Those threads are quite fine and they can also get cut by the gas. Second is the crack could get larger and actually distort the barrel to the point to when the barrel has to come off could actually damage the frame threads. You could end up with an expensive paperweight. I had a good friend who had a beautiful nickle plated M19 that he loved too shoot. I had donated a press and a set of steel dies for 38 special. At our gun club I watched him shoot and it wasn't 38's. Tole me he bought a set of 357 dies and a loading manual and was loading 125 grain bullets. He gave me the load and I went through 4 different loading manuals. He was like two grains over most of the max loads for that bullet weight. This was before computers and the internet. Called him up and told him his load was way too hot. Go to a 158 grain JHP and stay away from max loads. Supervel was at that time selling their ammo and that stuff was hot. Two years later he cracked the forcing cone. Back then send it back to S&W and they'd swap out the barrel. Not so today as they don't have any barrels to swap out. Check the wtb section over at the S&W forum, you'll most likely have to join up but it's free to use anything and post a WTB S&W model 19 barrel state finish and length and hope fully someone will have one. Call S&W and ask if you supply a M19 revolver with cracked forcing cone and a spare barrel will they install it. Pretty sure they will don't know what the $$$ will be but it will be done right. Check ebay also. Frank

[lefty o]

Mines no where close to this level of cracking. Would mine have some remaining life if it was only cast bullets, 147-185g. Some magnum hunting loads?

once something has started to crack, the crack will expand much easier . id not consider it a shootable firearm until it gets a new barrel. can you shoot it, yes. should you, no.

[JRD]

Mattd and fellow booliteers,
There is a huge difference between forcing cone erosion and a cracked forcing cone. As erosion progresses, you can keep shooting, just recognizing that it is wearing and at some point will cross into the region where cracking is a possibility. Once you have a radial crack, you'd better stop shooting right there. When cracked you no longer have a circular pressure vessel. You now have a "C" and continued firing will potentially open the crack to where the barrel swells and damages the frame threads. Once your frame threads are damaged, your frame is trashed.

As a possibly relevant analogy, maybe it's like buying a used car. Tires are a wear item, and wear is subjective to your driving style and your maintenance schedule. Just because tires show wear, doesn't mean they are worn out. But at some point, tires become so worn to where you need to stop driving on them, or you risk damage to your car. Maybe tires aren't a direct analogy because you typically replace tires, but don't typically replace a revolver barrel. Maybe the analogy is more akin to you buying a car and realizing the engine is burned up and needs replacement if you're going to drive the car safely.

Mattd, I hope you will review the barrel with your friend and come to an amicable solution. Just like buying a car with blown engine wouldn't be a good first car unless you are a mechanic and know how to evaluate it and get it repaired, a revolver with cracked forcing cone like that isn't a good place to start a love for revolvers.

Jason

[Petrol & Powder]

Mines no where close to this level of cracking. Would mine have some remaining life if it was only cast bullets, 147-185g. Some magnum hunting loads?

mattd - there is no more life left in that barrel. Stop shooting that gun and do not shoot it again until the barrel has been replaced.
There is no other acceptable path. If you're lucky, the barrel can be replaced. I agree with JRD, try to find some amicable solution with the seller of that gun.

[mattd]

He took it back. No hard feelings. We’re at a conference together so he knew I hadn’t fired it.

I had already allocated that money And I still need to fill that spot in the safe. Either another 19 or a 686. What wear items should I look for in a used revolver?

[Petrol & Powder]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?353160-Revolver-Inspection-The-Right-Way-aka-Wheelgun-101

Right here in this forum

[JRD]

Mattd,
That's good to hear. If he wants to sell that gun he can find a home for it with full disclosure of the forcing cone. Someone will likely want it as a project or parts gun if it's priced accordingly.

The Model 19 is a beautiful handling gun, but was meant to be shot mostly with 38's and occasionally with 357's. A steady diet of jacketed 357 magnums will eventually cause the crack you had. Conversely, a Model 19 will last darn near forever with lead 38's. If you are OK with shooting mostly 38's and shooting 357's as a treat a vintage Model 19 will suit you fine.
(158gr 357's are preferred over 125 or 110 gr for being less erosive)

If you want to shoot a lot of 357's, the 686 is a much more durable gun. But that comes at the expense of increased weight. Honestly as a range use gun, the 686 is superior. If you plan to wear it on your hip though, the 19 is better.

Another option if you want to buy new, is the recently reintroduced Model 19 Classic from S&W.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-19-classic
The reintroduced Model 19 has a redesigned barrel shank which beefs up the wall thickness and eliminates the thin spot at 6:00 where original 19's would always crack. The new Model 19 barrel is not backwards compatible, and is more like a 686 barrel shank carefully engineered into the K frame.

Jason

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're looking for a DA revolver chambered in .357 mag there are a lot of options but I would lean towards the S&W L-frames (an old 581, 586, 681, 686), a current 686 or a Ruger GP-100 (new or used). If you find a nice Ruger DA Six series (Security,Service, Speed -Six) those are outstanding guns as well but no longer in production.

If you don't need a magnum the world of possibilities really opens up. Just about any S&W K-frame chambered in 38 Special will serve you well.

I load and shoot .357 mag occasionally and I'm proficient with the magnum but I FAR prefer the 38 Special. I load and shoot way, way, way more 38 Special than .357 mag. Don't overlook the 38 Special. A lot of people buy a revolver chambered in .357 magnum - in case they want to shoot magnums but end up shooting 38 Specials almost exclusively. In those situations the .357 mag chambering becomes a security blanket that is there just in case.

[9.3X62AL]

In the 357 Magnum caliber, it took S&W a while "To do it all right at the same time"--hoop strength, cylinder length, forcing cone integrity in one package--but in 1980 S&W struck gold with their L-frame 357 series as described by Petrol & Powder above. I was an early subscriber to this series in 1981, and there has never been a time since then that at least one L-frame S&W has not graced my gun safe. I currently own 2 of these, and I suspect they will last forever shooting current SAAMI-spec 357 Magnum ammunition. They are also perfectly capable of sustained use of Doug Wesson-level 357 Magnum ammo--the 42.5 KPSI loads that made the 357's reputation in the 1930s as a game-taker and car-stopper. SAAMI current pressure standard is 36 KPSI. The difference? Wesson-level loads run a cast Lyman #358156 about 1375-1400 FPS from my 6" Model 586, in the 4" 686 barrel these loads run at 1275-1300 FPS. The SAAMI-spec loads run about 1275-1300 FPS in 6", 1210-1235 FPS in the 4" Model 686. Both have .003" flash-gaps.

[Walks]

This post has made me remember about 40yrs ago the 2 young men (they were the same age as me) destroyed a pair of S&W 19's , 6 incher's.

They were loading 110gr Hornady's over an obscene charge of 2400. The recoil & muzzle blast must have been tremendous. They probably fired no more then 1000 rds apiece before they had a problem.
Brought them in for My DAD to look at. They both had cracked forcing cones.
When DAD heard the load they were shooting, he was flabbergasted.

Both revolvers were sent back to S&W, who returned fully repaired guns.

Included with each revolver was a letter stating S&W would NOT repair these guns again. Advising them to stop shooting full power 110gr & 125gr loads. And to Restrict use of full power loads to 158gr only.
They told the Bill Jordan story of practice with .38spl and carry .357mag for serious work.
That the revolver was never designed for constant use of full power magnum loads.