Ballistic Products Inc - New Sabot

[Dixie Slugs]

Attached is a picture of Ballistic Products Inc's all new sabot for reloading 12 gauge round for rifled shotgun barrels. This sabots is priced right!...not like some other over-priced ones.
Dixie started testing this sabot with hard cast .503" - 460 gr bullets t a mild 1400'/" (20" Hastings barrel). There is no reason that a higher velocity will not be attained as tests go along.
While some will want to use jacketed bullets at hyper-velocity...Dixie feels that an ideal hunting load would be a 450 grto 500 gr hard cast with plenty of Meplat Area around 1700'/" to 1800'/" tops.
Any hard cast around .930" long will stabilize in the One turn in 34" of Hasting barrels.
And..some have said that a sabot will not release hard cast...Dixie did not find that to be so! We got excellent release at 1400'/"..and good general accuracy. We did not bench shoot, but rather offhand through the chrono.
Regards, James

[45 2.1]

Very nice..........Now, how about something like that for the 20 gauge rifled barrels. Soon, I hope....................

[44man]

Thank you. I have been waiting for something like that.

[longbow]

Thanks James.

That must be very new, I was surfing around the BPI site not long ago and didn't see this.

I'm sure it will be well received by boolit casters who also load for rifled shotgun.

What mould did you use? I just took a look and most .50 cal moulds I found were larger than the 0.503" you mentioned (like 0.512").

Personally I still like bore size though. I think the Dixie Tusker is one fine looking slug. I am still working towards a slow twist barrel or choke tube for RB and/or square slugs.

Something I do think would be nice is a shotcup similar to the muzzleloader plastic ball carriers but designed for shotgun to use RB's of about 0.680" to 0.690" so just small enough to fit through most chokes (if that is a requirement) but carrying a near bore size round ball.

Similar to what missionary is doing with his 0.685" RB's but without the hassle of modifying shotcups, and also being properly sized and consistent to grab rifling.

Again, a slow twist barrel would give best performance with RB or stubby slug.

Must be a birth defect, I just like big slugs and round balls.

Longbow

[GrizzLeeBear]

ooooooh, now that has all sorts of possibillities! A 20 ga. / 45 cal. version would be awesome, too.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Would it work well with the Lee C501-440-RF?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=266944

I assume you would not need the gas check since this wad would act like a sabot. 440 grains is real close to 1 oz. Would you load it using 1 oz. shot data? Or are slug loads a different animal altogether?

[Dixie Slugs]

It might work. The perfect length cast for the sabot would be at .930" and a barrel length of .630". The .630" is the length where the tits on the sabot petals press against/lock the bullet into the sabot. There would not need the gas check, but would need some .410 ga hard card to bring the lighter bullet up to where the petals lock it. Subtract your bullet length from .930: and you would be about right for filler under the bullet in the sabot.
BPI sends out some load data for various weights when you buy the sabots. It is next to impossible at present to tell what the ideal burn rates/powder charge weights will be best......and at what velocity? I would certainly start conservative.
Regards, James

[Johnch]

I would certainly start conservative.
Regards, James

Although that might be the best course

IT TAKES ALL THE FUN OUT OF IT !!!!:drinks::drinks:

As soon as I check what I need to reload 28 gau Hevi shot loads and what Steel shot I have left
I plan on ordering some to try

Watch Balistic Products
They keep sending me emails about free shipping good for a few days

:groner::groner: But not right now

http://balisticproducts.com/
Upper left side on the home page

$9.99 for 50
Guess I can afore to try a few

John

[GrizzLeeBear]

Just ran some ballistics with the C500-440-FN. Lee shows a BC of .296. At 1500 fps it has muzzle energy of 1900 ft/lb. Sighted in 2" high at 100 yds. it is 3.5" low at 150 yds. Velocity is still over 1200 fps at 150 yds. with 1500 ft/lb. of energy.
Can probably go a fair bit faster than this, but recoil with this type of load should be relatively mild. Cast out of soft alloy like 50/50 wheelweight/pure lead it would make a dandy deer thumper.
Might have to get a slug barrel for the 870 after all.

[Dixie Slugs]

Interestig isn't it?.....James

[remy3424]

Does anyone know much about these??? What kinda set-up do you need??? Can your MEC 600JR do most, plus a roll crimp??? It still might be close to $6 a box, but that's better than $10 for Hornady slugs!! What mold would work well in these sabots??? That is where the real savings will come!!!

[yondering]

A little bit of a tangent topic here:
So, I looked at this sabot on BPI's site, then started looking at some other stuff they offer. I noticed they have unslit shot wads, both cushioned and without the cushion. I didn't realize until now that you could get wads that were unslit. I have a partial box of ammo left from some "police special 12" ammo, that consists of a thick unslit shot cup, filled with #12 shot, and epoxy over the top of the shot to hold it in place. When fired, the shot, in the cup, stays together as a slug, until impact. Quite an impressive round, when fired at wood targets, water bottles, etc. I can't think of any "sporting" use for it, except maybe hunting coyotes, but it is fun to play with. I was thinking of buying some of these unslit wads from BPI and loading some of these myself.
Being a newbie to shotshells, how does one load with an uncushioned shot cup? Do you use card/felt wads, or a separate plastic shot cushion, or what? I haven't seen load data for uncushioned wads, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

[Johnch]

A
Being a newbie to shotshells, how does one load with an uncushioned shot cup? Do you use card/felt wads, or a separate plastic shot cushion, or what? I haven't seen load data for uncushioned wads, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.


Those wads are designed for Steel shot loads or max capisity of lead shot for turkey loads

I have a ......... lets just several K of those wads
As I load a bunch of steel shot for ducks

So normaly you would just a felt or card wad under and or over the shot to take up the excess space in the wad
But us cheap SOB's use a chunk of foam P Nut on top of the shot
Works great and I get lots of sent to me for free

So I can't help you with loads like you are interested in

But if you want to try a few
PM me your address



John

[yondering]

Those wads are designed for Steel shot loads or max capisity of lead shot for turkey loads

I have a ......... lets just several K of those wads
As I load a bunch of steel shot for ducks

So normaly you would just a felt or card wad under and or over the shot to take up the excess space in the wad
But us cheap SOB's use a chunk of foam P Nut on top of the shot
Works great and I get lots of sent to me for free

So I can't help you with loads like you are interested in

But if you want to try a few
PM me your address



John

The loads should be the same, only difference would be no slits in the wad, and a little epoxy or hot glue to seal the top, so the shot doesn't come out. Can you direct me to some load data?

If you have some extra unslit wads, I'd be interested to try a few. I'll send you a pm.
Thanks.

[snuffy]

This thread piqued my interest enough to look into loading some of the sabots. That lead into the purchase today of a rifled BBL. for my old 870. I also ordered the lee .501-440 FN mold from midway. Thanks for the heads up, James! A couple pounds of powder, a box of J-word projectiles,(.500 350 xtp), needed to load these highly specialized loads, I'm out almost $400.00! Two orders now to BPI and a trip up to harbor freight for a cheap drill press!

Take a look at this discussion over on THR.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=399789

I'll be shooting some of those this weekend. I even took a days vacation to work up loads tomorrow.:drinks: I'll post some results from that shooting session. I may even get a chance to shoot some of the 440 lead boolits!

[Dixie Slugs]

Well, I see what is happening is exactly what I was afraid would happen...pushing the envelope to that max!
BPI has to go to the top limit to compete with some stuff that is aimed at the boys in Shotgun-Only-States that are trying to make rifles out of shotguns!
Now...as far as Ole' Dixie (me) is concerned, this sabot opens all matter of doors for the everyday reloader to make up outstanding brush loads for large and/or dangerous game.
Any hard cast bullets it the 450 to 500 gr, with a meplat of 70%, at a velocity of 1600'/" to 1700'/" will handle anything that walks. Recoil is a factor that many overlook indeed! These people that push to the max...will fade away after the first brain rush! What will be left will be the regular meat hunter/reloaders that whats more smashdown!
Now lets recap:
(1) Any hard cast that is not longer than .930" will stabilize in the Hastings barrels.
(2) the tits in the petals are .630" from the base of the sabot and will grip the above bullet perfect.
(3) Any cast bullet that is at least .503" and designed as above is perfect.
(4) You do not need the clear breakable overshot wad if you use a bullet at least .930". Simply roll down onto the top of the sabot.
(5) You do not need the little plastic thing under the sabot. Use a BPI X12X over the powder and whatever hard waxed filler wad that sets the crimp index.
(6) It looks like Longshot is working best in the 460 to 500 gr bullet load.
In the 12 ga 3"....38 grs of Longshot - X12X - 3/8" hard waxed wad - sabot - 460 to 500 gr hard cast - roll crimp down on the sabot.
And....use a little common sense at to what recoil you want! Leave the top end loads for the fellows that carry the big Bowie knives and play head games by having something to impress others..."mine is bigger that yours" mindset!
What more can I say?
Regards, James

[dakotashooter2]

I smell a group buy mold for a bullet specially designed for this sabot!!!!!!!!!!!

[GrizzLeeBear]

... Recoil is a factor that many overlook indeed! These people that push to the max...will fade away after the first brain rush! What will be left will be the regular meat hunter/reloaders that whats more smashdown!

Indeed! The loads they were talking about over at THR would be torture to shoot to say the least. Like I said in my previous post, a 440 gr. boolit going 1500 - 1600 fps. would be plenty of power for whitetails out to at least 150 yds.

Would you be able load these on a regular shotgun loader with a folded crimp? I have an old Hornady shotgun press that was left in a house my sister-in-law bought. Needs cleaned up, but looks to be functional.

Also, I have 3 - 4 lb.s of Unique and 4 - 5 lb.s of Win. 540 (same as HS-6). Would these work for these type of loads?

[Dixie Slugs]

For those here that are interested, I would be happy to share the specs on the .503" - 460 gr bullet at we have ordered from Mountain Molds. The specs are based on the sabot as to the length where the tits on the petals engage tihe bullet and the length of the slug/bullet to the top of the sabot...plus the length for the one tuen in 34" rifled barrels.
Now....I supposed one could fold crimp the load? For hunting loads I would suggest new primed hulls and rolled crimp.
As for powders....we have tested two at present. One is Primex 513 that is not available to the public and the other is Longshot. I just can not justify trying to make a powder do (although it might) just because we have some on hand.
Over time there will be lots of hobbyist playing with this and that. That's all well and good, but do it within safe loading.
I also agreee that there is a balance of bullet weight - velocity - recoil that will develop a fine hunting load indeed.
We will be testing, as we do with all of our production loads, at next year's Linebaugh Seminar for penetration, bullet performance, and in the Bone Box.
I have already spoken to Todd Corder, in depth, about the future planss with this sabot and cast bullets.
Now...very few reloaders buy factory ammo! With that in mind, and my feeling toward reloaders and Cast Boolits, Dixie will publish the loading data for their sabot load.
However, do not come to us asking for jacketed bullet loads! There are other people and other forums that play around with that! We specialize in hard cast heat treat ammo for hunting deer/hogs and whatever!
Regards, James

[Blammer]

james, I would be interested in the specs for the bullet you are getting from MM.

I would happily draw the bullet with dimensions and give you the copy, for gratis, if you are interested.

Sharing of this information would be greatly appreciated my many, including me.

[Dixie Slugs]

OK..Let's keep it simple! The overall length of the bullet is .930"- the bearing sidewall is .630" - .300" long Truncated cone with a .350" meplat (about 70%) - as cast with WW .503"/.504" diameter - smooth sides, no grooves - flat base. This bullet will cast right at 460 grs. and will come right at the top of the sabot. We will heat treat this bullet
Now....the tits inside the petals will grip the bullet at the beginning of the truncated cone or at .630" from the bullet's base....most important.
With this bullet - 38 grs of Longshot - BPI X12X op- 3/8" hard waxed filler wad - plus sabot/bullet is ideal to roll crimp to an overall in 12 ga. 3" Mag at 2.70". The bullet nose at this setup will be below the shell mouth and not rest on a primer in a mag tube. The bullet will be locked in and will not drive forward in the hull when in a mag tube under recoil.
That's what we use...you can play around with whatever.
Regards, James

[snuffy]

James, would it be possible to tell me/us what the charge weights you were using with longshot? I just cast some of the 440 lee's, they come up just a smidge below the end of the sabot! I'd like to load some of them, but have no idea what/where to start. Oh nuts, I see you're loading 3", I'm doing 2-¾.

I'm not sure of your reasoning about the "tits" on the inside ends of the sabot petals. I don't think the bullet HAS to contact those to receive it's spin. The spin is imparted to the bullet by the squeeze put on it as it passes down the barrel. I think the "tits" are simply there to prevent the bullet/boolit from sneaking forward in the sabot,(during cycling, being chambered).

Here's some pics I took after today's loading session;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170064.JPG
That's some finished rounds. The 500 Hornady to the left, center is the 350 horn, and right is the lee .501-440 FN
http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170065.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170067.JPG


http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170068.JPG

The BP hull vise, neat tool, almost a have to have!

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170070.JPG

The new drill press from harbor freight, crude but it works just fine for now. On sale today for $65.00.

[Dixie Slugs]

Your setup looks very good...just set your drill press at its lowest spin rate.
You are correct about the tits inside of the petals. They are to lock the bullet in and apply pressure to the shoulder/ogive of the bullet so it does not move forward and leave a space under it....that's what blows these sabots. In order to lock short bullets in, I sugest a .410 hard nitro under the bullet to bring the shoulder/ogive up to .630' from the base of the sabot.
As for 12 2 3/4"..we do not load any that length. I would start with about 30 grs of Longshot and workup, watching for any pressure signs.
There needs to be support between the X12X op and the base of the sabot...nitro of filler wads in all loads.
Once one sees the problem of keeping the bullet from moving forward as the powder builds pressure in the forcing cone, etc...eveything goes to sleep indeed! We had the same startup problem with our Tri-Ball load....the bottom ball not being tight in the bottom of the plastic wad.....ergo blown wads big time!
I am not going to get into a pi$$ing a contest with the resident experts of Slug Shooting Forum or anywhere else! They should have picked up on this blown sabot problem at once!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

James, you and I think a lot alike! I took another look at the load data, they are recommending 33.0- 35.0 of longshot for the 500 jacketed, so I loaded some at 30.0 to try out today with the 440 lead boolits. If they shoot okay, I MAY try to up the charge, but if they're accurate AND they do at least 1800, I'll quit right there.

Yeah that yahoo Jaeger over at the slug shooters forum was doing something wrong! I couldn't make heads, nor tails out of his report. He says the sabots went through the ½ inch plywood target, then wonders why they were mangled![smilie=1:

One thing that the BP instructions stressed was to put pressure on the sabot before they were crimped. I got just about exactly 1/10 inch compression when I did it. AND they stayed put after the crimp was applied! I wonder if that yahoo did that?:confused:

Well, now to put a few more together, then head for the range. It's a beautiful fall day here in central WI!:drinks:

[Dixie Slugs]

Now that's a resonable approach indeed....and shows common sense, which is rare indeed.
The entire thing started out wrong by pushing the velocity concept without stating some of the important factors involved. It all reminds me of trying to put a racing engine in a Model T Ford! The compression thing only makes sure the bullet bottoms in the sabot. But, they is still the problem of the bullet moving ahead in the sabo and developing an unsupported section in the sabot.
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

OK!......This entire thing about the Ballistc Products Inc's sabot has me thinking of something I saw in Italy, when I was working over there.....a fellow coming around a mountain road...Herding Turkeys.
So....let's talk about how this sabot realtes to the folks here at Cast Boolits.
There are three potential markets for this sabot:
(1) These folks tend to shoot factory rounds. This group tends to want to extend their hunting ranges in Shot-Gun-Only states. They are concermed more with a flat trajectory and velocity, than bullet performance on game.
(2) These are folks that try to reduce the cost of facrory rounds by loading all styles of exotic stuff...which still includes jackert bullets.
(3) There are the people that are looking at the potential of this sabot for various cast bullets
Cast Boollits fall into this last important group # 3. So, let's talk about that number 3 group, which agains falls into groups:
(1) Those that will buy cast bullets and load them in the sabot.
(2) Those that will acquire molds for existing bullets.
(3) Those that will have a mold cut by somebody that will cast bullets for this sabot.
Both #1 and #2 will need to understand that the shoulder/ogive of those bullets need to be at about .630" from the base of the sabot....most important. For loghter bullets, they need to add .410" nitros to build up the shoulder/ogive of the bullets to be under the tits inside the sabot's petals. And have a firm support under the sabot. This calls for a good overpowder wad like the BPI X12X, plus some hard waxed filler wads. The final wad stack, including the the sabot must roll crimp to the the overall length of the shell thta is no more that 2.70" in the 12ga. 3". The meplat of the bullet should be below the rolled crimped mouth. It really doesnot matter if the bullet has lube grooves or not. The sabot has a very slight step down in the petal area. This will allow cast bullets above .503" diameter to be used as long as that diameter bullet seats down on the sabots base.
Now for #3....An ideal cast bullet design for that sabot will be a smooth sided bullet. There should be a shoulder, or ogive, at about .630" from the bullets base....and an OAL bullet length about .930". The .930" bullet will stabilize in a one turn in 34" rifled barrel, as is the popular Hastings barrels. The bullets nose should have at least a 70% meplat for good tissure damage. This bullet design will be about 460 grs.
Now...since the cast bullet is in a sabot...the molder/reloader can use various alloy hardness. For pure lead bullets, hold the velocity around 1400'." because of possible bullet setback. For heat treated alloy...the velocity will be what you want to load, but take recoil into consideration indeed.
An ideal soft bullet can be bought from No Excuse Bullets in Roy, Utah. We have tested this bullet and it works fine. It's the same bullet we use in out 50 caliber ML"s. The popular Hastings barrels are .716"/717" on the lands and .727" in he grooves. These are the numbers to consider whan selecting the cast bullets diameter.
Again....the sabot must have a solid base under the sabot! In 12 gauge 3" and the 38 grs of Longshot....we use a BPI X12X and a hard waxed 3/8'" wad from Circle Fly....rolled crimp down onto the front edge of the sabot's petals. This gives the OAL length of 2.70" im 12 ga 3"/
That's about it, folks!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

James, thanks for all the great info!

Snuffy, looking forward to your range report!

[snuffy]

ARGHHHHHH! THE RANGE WAS CLOSED! :groner:

We're a private range that butts up to a nature preserve on the north side. Once each fall we close the range for shooting to let the bunny huggers take a romp in their woods, unbothered by us shooting. I just plain forgot that was to be today. Nobody wants to know if these sabots work as advertised worse than me, guess we'll have to wait til tomorrow.

[longbow]

While everyone else seems excited by the sabot idea I am still working towards a slow twist choke tube or barrel suited for full bore round ball or "square" slug.

Since I can't seem to find anyonme interested in making a slow twist tube I am going to try making my own rifling bench and make my own choke tube and maybe even barrel.

Maybe a little off topic but I am with James on the full bore slug.

Longbow

[snuffy]

Well which do you want first, the good news or the bad?

Okay, here's the good news, what there is of it!

I took along a few test loads, that were actually work ups for the 440 50 cal lead boolits,(lee mold C501-44-RF). I decided to try the longshot recipe for the 500 Hornady SP, BUT substitute the lee lead boolit. I reduced the longshot load from 35.0 to 30.0. Then since I had just mounted the scope, boresited it, but didn't know where it would hit at 50 yds. So I loaded 3 shells, 2 at 28.0 and 1 at 29.0 for sighters/scope adjusters. Here's where they hit a target that someone had been using for some 30 cal.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190071.JPG

The lower two boolits were the 2 at 28.0, upper left is the 29.0.

I adjusted down about 4" and began firing the 350 XTP-HP'S I had trouble with the chrono NOT wanting to record/see the bullet/sabots. Here's the results;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190073.JPG

Only one bullet hit either point or base forward, IE made a round hole! The rest hit completely SIDEWAYS! Big fireball, low or no recoil, and destroyed sabots/overpowder wads. I lowered the chrono so the bullet would pass higher over the screens, got it to read 4 of the 350 HP's.
1707, 1742, 1179, 1771.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190081.JPG

Holes through both overpowder wads and the sabots. A guy over at shotgun world (slug shooters forum), got similar results with the clays load with 300 HP's.

Then, I put up a clean target, shot the 5 loads I had for the 30.0 gr. longshot, with the lee 440 lead.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190074.JPG

Now that's what I'm talkin about! :D BUT, there's always the but, velocity was no where near what it was supposed to be.

Av. 1336
Hi. 1385
Lo. 1311
ES. 73.3
SD. 28.3

Recoil was sharp, but manageable. The recovered sabots were real nice looking, just like they should look.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190079.JPG

I only found one X12X overpowder wad, from the good looking sabots. It's lower left in the pic, looks fired, but undamaged.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA190080.JPG

So what's my take on all this? If I had to go hunting real soon, I'd increase the longshot load to 35.0, shoot another group then sight in with the 440 lead boolits.

James, at Dixie Slugs thinks a card wad between the sabot and the X12X wad would prevent the pressure from blowing a hole in both the wad and sabot. I don't know if there's room to do that, but I do have some of them, unlubricated, but a soak in some lee liquid alox would solve that problem. He also thinks that the shorter XTP bullets need a .410 wad under them so they can't move forward during firing. I have some of them too, I may try that.

[Dixie Slugs]

OK...Let's look at what you have! The longer cast bullets were not moving in the sabot. The velocity was much lower, as was our 12 ga - 3" - .503" - 460 gr - 38 grs of Longshot - 1400'/" - 20" Hastings barrel...that the listed BPI load of 500 gr Hornady - 38 grs - 2350'/". I am beginning to think the BPI numbers or from a 30" pressure solid test barrel....no matter that they say they are from a 24" Hastings barrel.
You shold try a .250" (or two .125") nitro under the sabot, insted out the X12X, and see if you get blown wads....if you do, it's the lighter bullet moving forward in the sabot, leaving a space. Note, although the velocity was slower, the longer cast bullet did not move in the sabot.....no blown wads.
The bullet just has to stay lock back into the sabot. If you look at the sabot...there is a slight step down in the petal area. I do not think a .short 500" diameter jacketd bullet is being squeezed down by the petals enough to keep it from moving forward When the sabot/bullet hit the leades at 2.84" (in a 3" chamber) the short bullet moves forward in the sabot and leaves a space under the bullet. The best I can mike the outside diameter of the sabot petals with a .503' cast bullet is .718"/719"...and that is why I reported that the rifling marks on the fired sabot petals were shallow...in a barrel that the lands are 716"/.717". Your recovered sabots are a little smoky, as are mine.....blowby? Just some thoughts!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

Now that's what I'm talkin about! :D BUT, there's always the but, velocity was no where near what it was supposed to be.

Av. 1336
Hi. 1385
Lo. 1311
ES. 73.3
SD. 28.3


Snuffy, nice report!

Since the 440 boolt and sabot are about 1 1/8 oz. I was looking at Hodgdon data for 1 1/8 oz. shot loads. Now, I know slug and shot data will be different, but the laws of physics being what they are, if you shoot a projectile of equal weight with an equal amount of same powder you will get about the same velocity, right? They show Longshot loads of approx. 31 grains with a velocity of about 1420 fps and up to approx. 35 grains going 1530 fps. So, by comparison, your load of 30 gr. and velocity of approx. 1350 fps seems to be in line with what should be expected. I would bet that when you work it up to 35 gr. your velociy will be right around 1530 or so.
I think James is right about the BPI data being a little, shall we say, optimistic? According to their data shooting a heavier (500 gr) projectile with a slightly higher powder charge (38 gr) gets you 1,000 fps more velocity?! Something fishy there. The velocities that you and James are getting seem much more in line with published data for the +/- 1 1/8 oz. projectiles.

[Dixie Slugs]

Yes. it looks pretty good, except the 1400'/" velocity was what I got with Primex 513..I have not chrono'ed the 38 grs of Longshot yet...see previous posts about the 1400'/".
Yes, you are fairly correct about weights, except a shot load has more sidewall pressure than a full bore of equal weight ...or maybe a sabot. In doing the final tests at Dixie on full bores, it took more powder to brimg uppressure with a full bore to equal the velocity of an equal weight shot load....but its's a good place to start!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Grizzleebear, I did the same thing before pulling the trigger the first time. I weighed the entire wad stack, it was 522.8 grains for the entire package,(with the 440 gr. lead boolit). That is between 1-1/8 and 1 ¼ ounces. I felt safe with those powder charges, I feel safe going above those charges too.

James has it right, a slug/sabot behaves more like a solid projectile than a shotcharge would. Hence lower pressures.

I feel confident that an accurate load CAN be obtained with a little tweaking here and there.

[Dixie Slugs]

Oh, I have no doubt at all that this group will develop an outstanding cast bullet load with this sabot.....I do not know, or really care. about other bullets.
This all is nothing new to me. I had to start from scratch developing all the Dixie loads. There was no information about 12 bore (.730) cast bullet data, except some British ballistics that was a hundred years old.
It is also nothing new to see inflated velocity numbers all over the shotgun slug loads today. People are shooting loads that may be only 75% of the velocity they "think" they are getting. This also applies to some of the factory stuff out there.
Let's be realistic indeed! Just how much velocity does the shooter/hunter really need when throwing a cast bullet weighing 450 to 500 grs? My approach to all this is the find a load that is safe with a cast bullet .503"- 460 grs and call that what I am looking for...at what the final safe velocity turns out to be. I am not going to try to match BPI's data, since I already feel it's inflated or from a 30" test barrel. I really do not know at this time what the final velocity will max out at? I would like to get into the 1700'?' - 1800'/" range if possible....but I will settle for a hunting load in the 1600'/" range. I already have a true .727" - 600 gr (Tusker) in the 1500'/" range, but recoi is rough to say the least.
It appears now that some things have to be done with this sabot:
(1) A firm under base usling a good over powder wad and some semi hard waxed filler wads.
(2) A cast bullet that is locked at .630" from the inside base of the sabot. That can be a full length bullet or a lighter one that has nitro cards under it....but whatever, it can not leave a space betweeen the bullet's base and the sabot...period.
(3) A powder with a burn rate around Blue Dot or Longshot (for weights over 300 grs)...and maybe even Steel when the weight get's to 500 grs and up.
After all that is done. It all boils down the amount of whatever powder to get safe velocity.
And...all this is not new! It's just step by step in developing safe cast bullet loads whether it is pistol/rifle type cast bullets or the Ultra-Bore cast bullets like 12 bore. The fellows here on Cast Boolits have been developing loads for years with cast bullets....it just more of the same when you really get down to it! So, let the speed freaks, etc. go at it trying to make a long range rifle out of a shotgun! There is tons of exotic stuff blasted all over the web that is totally useless to the everyday shooter/reloader/hunter! Forget, for now, what BPI says...and just do the same as you have been doing in developing any cast bullet load!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

Friends..I am at a loss on the BPI sabot thing. Early today I have them shoot the 38 grs loads with the .503" - 460 gr cast bullet in the BPI sabot.
The velocity was an avg of 1415'/" with very littke shot to shot variation indeed. This test was under very cintrolled situation over our adjusted chronos. The asbot petals were flared to about 45 degress, no blown wads, a accuracy offhand was not bad at all for resting elboxs on knees. bullets hit the 50 yard target absolutely point on! Our people are good at this type testing, as they have done enough over the last four years with hard cast of all sizes indeed!.
We are looking at about 900'/" difference in BPI stated velocity with our 460 gr vs their 500 gr...with the same powder charge of 38 grs of Longshot in 12 ga 3" chamber.....ours out of a Hastings 20 rifled barrel/scope. I am through with testing until our new mold comes in. They have said the tested in a 24" Hasting barrel...indeed! I could swallow a 100'/" diffence between the 20" and 24" barrel.....but 900'/" plus?
After our mold comes (likely two months) I will again start testing with various burn rate powder. Since we are now getting 1500'/" with a .727"-600 gr bullet with Primex 513...we should beat that some.....? In the meantime. I will be watching with great interest what you all come up with. Plese keep me informed! When we start up testing again at Ole' Dixie I will be sure you get all our test data! Be careful!
Regards, James

[GrizzLeeBear]

James, it is nice to hear an ammunition maker/seller with a voice of reason and not obsessed with maximimum velocity/power. I do not need an elephant gun to kill whitetail deer. Just ask the last one I killed a few weeks ago with my .54 flintlock at 90 yards. Oh, thats right, you can't cause she's DEAD and im my freezer. :mrgreen: IMO a lot of people would shoot more accurately and kill/recover more deer with their shotguns if they shot ammo that didn't beat the crap out of them.
Looks like my estimate of 1500 fps with the 440 bullet is possible, even in a 2 3/4" shell. If the accuracy is there, I think it would be an excellent 150 yd. deer load.

[Dixie Slugs]

Grizz your post came in just after I posted my last one. Now....I have been in this game a long time and have pushed for proper designed cast since 2000 on Beartooth and four years on Ole' Dixie. I have suggested. on the Dixie page, that serious hunters should vist/post on Cast Boolits and Beartooth!
Yes, Dixie has developed some very powerful cast bullet loads indeed, but this sabot project was/is designed to give the everyday hunter a moderate hunting load with a bullet in the 450/460 cast bullet range. We have invested in/ordered a production mold for a .503"- 460 gr truncated cone bullet that is .930". smooth sides, with the truncated cone starting at .630" from the bullet's base. If everything turns out, we may offer that bullet as a component...but only if we are satified with it!
If you read my last post...you will see that we have to shut down further teating until our new mold arrives...we are in the middle of our biggest sale month indeed.
You can rest assured that Dixie is comitted to cast bullets and also those reloaders that do not but factory rolled ammo....and most of all to the everyday hunter!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

One thing I failed to mention last night was the fact that because the 440 .501 boolit has lube grooves, it is taller for that weight. If it were a "slug" or no grooves, it would be shorter for the same weight. So, okay most of you know that, but here's why I mentioned it. That makes the "tits" or nubs press against the side of the ogive of the boolit. That makes the outsides of the sabot bigger than the inside of the shell. I bulges it out, but not so much that it won't chamber. The boolit that James has ordered should just fit under the nubs, or just slightly push the petals out a bit.

Today dawned wet and windy, so no trip to the range. Maybe tomorrow, but once I enter the workweek, it's all I can do to get rested and ready for work another day. Come on retirement, 3 yrs 3 months away![smilie=1:

[remy3424]

Snuffy, The Iowa slug hunters for one, are loving the early load development you have going on!!! I told a buddy about this project and he ordered 100 sabots for me to play with this winter!! By January you and others should have the hard work done and the rest of us will have a huge jump-start to finding what the loads that we can use to replace our $2/each saboted shells. Thanks in advance!! I hope this group can get these things printing tight groups and flat shooting to boot!! You go!!

[snuffy]

Remy, it's my pleasure! I enjoy testing out what ever is new in the shooting sports. I guess the everyday stuff is getting boring, so I look for new endeavors. I'm only getting started, I have a few ideas to explore before getting ready for this year's deer hunt Nov. 22. IF I get a good load that's repeatable, I may carry the shotgun, even in rifle territory.

I'm thinking of casting some of those 440's in 20-1 lead tin alloy. Make them softer, maybe the sabot can get a better bite on the boolit. Besides, they would expand better too. Now calm down James, the hard cast has it's place also! That wide meplat of that 440 don't need to expand to cause trauma.

[Dixie Slugs]

I really do not care what hardness one decides to use in the BPI sabot. In some ways a softer bullet might be better for thin skin game. The bullet I have been shooting/testing is a pure lead bulet from No Excuse Bullets and has proven to be a good killer in my TC Grey Hawk.
I also know that there is a velocity/pressure level that the softer bullets set back. I don't know where that would be in the sabot and what effect it would have on side wall presure?
The main accomplishment to date is no blown sabots! BPI called us yesterday and was trying to find out the person on Slug Shootig Forum that was sayig things like BPI was smoking dope when they made the sabot....among other things. Since they all use computer names, I have read the posts but do not know who they are. I have now pulled all posts off the Dixie page about the sabot until our mold comes in and we can resume testing. During my converastion with BPI, I did state that I was critical about the loading data they had rushed out, but also said that there was nothing wrong with the saot's design indeed.
I do see potential with this sabot for the cast bullet fellows...and BPI overlooked that market! There are variuos reasons that Dixie will go with the hard cast heat treated design. That would let us use the same alloy and production setup we use for our other ammo. It would also mean we would not have to drain the casting pots and bring uo another lead mix. We would also use the same hulls, waxed wads, X12X, and maybe our standard powders. The two cavity mold we have ordered would also go on on Magma Master Casters, etc. That way we would not have to break down equipment, other than a quick mold change, each time we needed to run sabot bullets. All this matters to us, but would not matter to the reloader.
We sell quite a bit of ammo in the Southern market for big wild hog hunting...and that does call for a stouter cast bullet design. However, just look at the different ways the cast bullet loader can go with various alloy bullets! I also want to try to get away from sizing the new bullets! In the big Star Sizers, it would mean they would have to cut off the air pressue, lube heater, and pull/shut off the auto bullet feed. So much for that!
It is most important that the people here on Cast Boolits iron out all the kinks on this sabot!...no one else will with cast bullets. While we may not agree on bullet alloy...after alll it's all cast bullets!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

Oh Yes! What I would really like to know is just what real world weight and velocity the meat hunters are looking for in this sabot load?....say with a .503" - 460 gr bullet...James

[docone31]

While you are doing some great stuff with shotgun sabots, have you considered the smaller calibers?
I ask this question as I would love to be able to cast for my .30s, and load with sabots. I am not referring to .30 to .22. I was thinking about .30 to 7mm.
I do not know much about things on your end. My thought would be to size the lube lands off the castings, and use a sabot. Don't even know if it is practical. I went from trying to cast and shoot, to casting, paper patching, and shooting. I am getting better groups with my .303 British with paper, than jacketed.
You seem to put a lot of time and effort into your sabots.
I would try some if they are ever made in my calibers.

[snuffy]

Welllllllll, another range trip is over. Much to report as usual.

First I tried these loads. The X12X wad, 1 .135 federal card wad under the BLS sabot, 20.0 of E-3, 350 XTP. Never hit the 50 yard target. Recovered sabots were in terrible shape, not burned through but it looked like the xtp bullet had punched through the base of the sabot.

Next I tried some 3 inch loads, 33.0 longshot, FS12, 500 hornady sp, BLS sabot. Burned distorted sabots, holes in both the O.P. wad and sabot, 3 sideways keyholed bullets. Also a 220 fps extreme spread in velocities. These were all with the COS,(clear overshot ),wad. 3 shots each, trying to conserve sabots,(got some more coming). Huge fireball, minimal recoil.

Next were some 2- ¾ loads with the X12X wad, 33.0 longshot, 500 H, and the BLS sabot. Same story all over again as with the 3 inch load, perforated gas seal, and sabot, keyholed bullets.

Then I tried a 33.0 longshot load behind some soft cast 440 lee lead boolits,(20-1 lead/tin). These were loaded as before, a .135 card wad between the X12X and the sabot but no clear overshot wad. Finally got a somewhat decent group! The velocity was a bit higher, than with the 30.0 load I tried last Sunday. Huge extreme spread on the first 3, average of 1437, hi was 1533, but the low was 1336. Can't explain that. A second group of 3 went into a same sized group as the first, BUT the exception was the velocity averaged 1390 and the ES was only 50 fps! The recovered sabots looked pristine! AND they were opened wider, only went 20 yards, and had the imprint of the lube groves on the inside of the sabot petals!

My take on all this is; the sabots are too soft! They lack the structural integrity to endure the pressures of the powder and the bullet inside the petals. Hence the holes being poked in the base of the sabot. Only when the hard card wads are put between the O.P. wad and sabot do they perform as they should. They HAD to make them that soft to make the cushion section work.

I'm through working with the jacketed bullets. It seems they are too slick for the sabot to get a grip on them to impart spin. I'm going to fire up the lead pot again tonight to make some more of the 440 lee boolits. IF the weather holds, it was cold, grey and windy today but no rain, I may make another trip tomorrow with some new loads, or should I say more powder behind those lead boolits.

I recovered one of the card wads with a perfect imprint of the X12X wad on it's behind. I could re-use it, completely undamaged.

[longbow]

I have read both pro and con to sabot rounds though in fairness most cons are regarding price. This system should address that at least partly by allowing home casting and assembly.

I also read that many sabot shooters report flyers ~ maybe not often but enough to be a concern.

Is there that big an advantage in ballistics to go this route instead of full bore?

Slugs like Brenneke, Gualandi and Dixie Terminator or Tusker should all be quite effective to 100 yards or better.

Do the sabot slugs pack enough more energy, with accuracy, farther enough to make a big difference?

Just curious.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

At the risk of being redundant....at present I do not think you will get enough support under the sabot in 12 2 3/4" to make a consistant load.
And again..that BPI plastic thing under the sabot is a real problem imdeed. In our 3" load we are using, at present, an X12X - .250" hard nitro - 3/8" hard waxed wad. I also do think there is a velocity/pressure level that will max out this sabot.....?
In the jacketed bullet...there may need to be some knurling applied to help the sabot grip the slick bullet. Really a rather simple solution that I am sure will be overlooked....as have been many suggerstions about making the sabot work.
It looks like people are just going back and repeating the basic problem of not enough support under the sabe and continued use of that BPI palctic spring thing!
What more can I say?
Regards, James

[Al in Mi]

James, how much do you left to roll crimp with that wad stackup?

The knurling idea is a good point too, a light roll between two files to give it some grip.

I'm off to try a couple of Bluedot and Steel loads this morning, with 440gr, .510 diameter, cast bullets from buddy Lloyd. They seated fine in the sabot, od across the petals is right at .729 now.

Not a nice day here, so just going to see what things do @ 50yds if I can keep the target standing in the wind.

Thanks for all your inputs and insights.

[Dixie Slugs]

I do not know exact, but a liile deeper that a standad roll crimp....no real problem, just play with the crimp until it touches the sabot lips.
A per our latest post on Dixie....we are pulling back on all sugestions/design for the BPI sabot...due to some people running the forums copying our research and saying they developed the solution to blown sabots.
When we finsih testing with the molds we have ordered and have a round ready for the market...you can rest assured we will post the load's components, bullet design, and powder/pressure on Dixie, Cast Boolits, and Beartooth...exclusive!
Regards, James

[Dixie Slugs]

For your information...attached is a picture of some recovered BPI sabots for our tests. No blown sabot indeed! No BS, just good old facts!
Regards, James

[44man]

I am going to have to study all of Dixie slugs posts because I used BP load data and here is what I got. :twisted:

[Dixie Slugs]

If you would tell us what your load was, we just might be able to help. Just more pictures will not remedy the problem....nor will keeping using components that fail each time. Again...blown sabots are not just BPI's sabots. The same thing that is blowing BPI's sabots would blow other sabots and even heavy plastic wads...we have been there and done that also! At this stage of the game, I do not care whose loading data it is...unless people just want to prove that there is a problem with BPI loading data (or sabots) and want to trashed them while favoring some other makers loaded ammo. If that's the case, there is another forum that will welcome that.....in fact that forum would trash any product not favored by a very select group there.
The only reason I have become involved in at this here on Cast Boolits, is becaue I want to see a sabot the relaoder can use with cast bullets that does not cost up to .75 cents per sabot.
After seeing all the pictures and hype all over the web...I am starting to believe there are those that want to trash BPI instead of solving the blown sabot situation. Could it be some of these posters have a tie in with some other maker?...it's happen more that once indeed! Could it be some other sabot maker is worried about competition from a sabot that's cheaper?...that's happen before! There[s just too much post movement going on and not enough common sense in correcting the problem.
Dixie has teated BPI sabot enough to know first hand that there is a problem in the other BPI components...but one that can be corrected for/by the reloader.
One more time....the blown sabots are caused by two things...single or both at the same time. The wrong wad column under the sabot or the bullet moving forward in the sabot, thereby leaving an unsupported sabot bottom. It has been said that the little post in the bottom of the sabot is punching a hole...really, look at our recovered sabots. They were shot with 38 grs of Longshot! Some have said an Alcan Air-Wedge should be used as a filler...why? Some have said the X12X wad tilts...we have been using them for four years in ammo we sell and have never had one tilt! It fact there are other plastic over powder wads failed when
X12X still held the line! And on and on!
Oh well, all this is going nowhere if the people really do not want to solve the problem for various reasons mentioned indeed! If that's the case the reloaders here will lose!
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Some more tests done today, maybe some more tomorrow.

Nothing surprising today. I stuck with the 20-1 lead 250 grain,(it's supposed to cast at 240), I tried some sabots with the cushion cut-off. Same load as before, 33.0 of longshot, X12X 2 .135 card wads with a ¼ cork wad between the card wads. The group was okay, the usual 2- 2½ to 3" group @ 50 yds. Sabot was undamaged, opened and fell to the ground at 20 yds. in front of bench.

Then I tried some completely experimental loads. One was 40.0 of Aliant steel. Huge BOOM low velocity,(1125), with over 200 fps ES. Sabots went almost all the way to the 50 yd target, they were intact, looked unfired except being dirty. The petals were completely unopened. Group was 8" wide by 4" high, one bullet was slightly keyholed.

Next was 35.0 of blue dot. Probably the most uniform in velocity 20 fps ES grouped into 2" However the velocity was only 1250 fps. Since blue dot is rumored to have poor ignition in cold weather, I'll stick with longshot.

Now I opened the throttle a bit. Since BP has a load for the 500 Hornady SP at 36.0, and my boolits are 450, I could safely go there. Being careful, I loaded 3 at 35.0 and 3 more at 36.0. Here's a scan of the target, the group on the right is the blue dot load.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/bp%20sabot%20group%202.jpg

Then I shot the 36.0 load, here's a scanned pic of that.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/bp%20sabot%20group%201.jpg

Velocity is in the low 1500's, and the recoil is about all I can take. Of course I saved the hardest kickers for last. After the first 16 or so, had me softened up. Even with a past magnum pad on, it was painful.

Now, okay I know that BP says I could go up to 38.0, but somebody else better volunteer to shoot them! Besides, that's plenty good enough accuracy AND the velocity should certainly be plenty.

I'm gonna load quite a few more of the 36.0 load, just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. Then a move over to the 100 yd range, maybe even 200?

I knew I'd forget something! Rolling Eyes

Every single one of the sabots were intact, oops except for one that lost a petal. The ones that were from the 36.0 longshot load were opened the widest and all fell at 25 yds. All were shot with the X12X wad with a card wad between it and the sabot.

I also forgot the test with the alcan airwedge. Nothing spectacular, velocity was nearly the same as with the X12X, accuracy also in the ballpark.

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent indeed! The bottom group looks about like our 38 grs of Longshot in the 12 ga 3" Mag...except we have not cut the bottom of the sabot off....and our present bullet weighs 460 grs. And...you are correct...a velocity beteen 1500'/" and 1700'/" with a 450/460 gr bullet is fine hunting load in the real world. It will compare nice with some of the famous 50 caliber guns of the past.
Regards, James

[snuffy]

Thanks James, but only one group of four sabots had the cushion cut off. It didn't make any difference whether the cushion was cut off or not.

That nice group 36.0 longshot, which was 1-¾ inches, was with the intact sabot cushion included. As I said, the hard .135 card wad prevents burn/blow through of the sabots like we had without the card wad with the jacketed bullets.

On shotgun world, some are finding that the sabots are undersized. The inside is exactly .500 and the outside or O.D. is .715. Where the barrels are running .729-.730, that leaves a sloppy fit for the bullet to get gripped by the sabot and spun by the rifling.

It should, if anything, be a real tight fit. Kind of like a sabot in a muzzle loader, hard to ram, you know they're going to work.

[snuffy]

I just took some pics of the recovered sabots;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA310085.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA310087.JPG

Looks like near perfect performance. You can even see the imprint of the lube grooves on the inside of the petals near the bottom. Rifling marks are well defined on the outside.

[44man]

I just used the listed load of 23 gr of Clays with the 350 Hornady. I didn't expect such results but can see that what you say is correct. I bought a lot of extra sabots and BPI also sent some free wads and more sabots when I asked them about the problem. Nice people.
I am not too worried about the jacketed bullets anyway and have the intent of making a mold.
I have been wondering if making the nose large enough to sit on the petal angle would work, like a modified hammerhead slug. Any setback would also cause the sabot to expand into the rifling tighter too.
Then the question of grease grooves, dry of course, do they help with grip on the plastic?
I might have to buy the Lee mold too. What is the mold number?

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent Indeed! I knew that when the folks here on Cast Boolits put their heads together they could solve the blown sabot thing....indeed.
In fact Grant Fackler said the spec sheet showed a bottom of .509".....so we have enough room to make the cast bullet bigger. The mold I ordered to be cut throws at .503" with pure lead...our bullet alloy will be a little larger.
It appears that the shouler of the bullet must be at .630: from the base for it to lock under the tits inside of the petals.....you all check that out also.
It looks like we are homing in on a succcesful combo....put I do not think we will reach (or what to?) the velocity on BPI data sheet...but who cares! I am looking for a good hunting load with a well designed hard cast!
Great work team!
REgards, James

[44man]

Hey, has anyone tried a .50 caliber maxi ball? I no longer have my mold having sold my TC .50 long ago and I can't find a maxi to check. I don't know what the length is.
Rapine also has some molds for the 50-70, .515450, 385 and 320.
I wish I had some samples.
James, what is the best length of the shell above the top of the sabot for a good roll crimp without the overshot wad?

[snuffy]

Then the question of grease grooves, dry of course, do they help with grip on the plastic?
I might have to buy the Lee mold too. What is the mold number?

Well it's my theory that the petals extruding into the EMPTY lube grooves helps grip the boolit. I suppose you could argue that if they weren't there, the petals would have more surface area to grip. But it doesn't seem to pose a problem.

The mold is C501-44-RF.

As I said, the lee boolit is a bit too long for the tits to close over the ogive. This causes the ends of the sabot petals to flare a bit. It makes the tits bite into the boolit when it's seated in the shell casing. Also, they are putting pressure on the boolit while it's in the barrel.

As far as how much case you need after everything is seated to get a good roll crimp, I haven't really measured anything. All I can say is, not much! Certainly not nearly as much as is required for a good star crimp. I'll take a couple of pics later, before and after crimping with a few measurements.

[44man]

Thank you. A few more questions though. What happens if wads are put in the sabot to raise the Lee so the tits go in the crimp groove?
Is the gas check needed to enlarge the base? Would it be a good idea to open the gas check portion of the mold for a larger base?
How about making a mold with GG's like a tumble lube Lee for more bite but with sharp edges instead of rounded ones.
There are other options too like the Lee .50 caliber Minie' balls, number .500-354M and .500-360M. Change the hollow base plug for a flat base.
Lots of things to look at but to save money we need the guys with these molds to send a few boolits to see what they look like in the sabot.
James, I agree that we don't need the super velocities. Accuracy is more important then anything. That has been my criteria for revolvers but this sabot thing is new to me. I only shoot round balls in my muzzle loaders. I shoot one ragged hole at 50 yd's and can hit tiny targets at 200 meters off hand with a round ball, NO WAY I will buy a modern pistol bullet shooting abortion called a muzzle loader! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: I can shoot over 200 rounds a day without EVER wiping the bore using the right lube, patch and ball fit. Try THAT with a sabot!

[snuffy]

Hmmmmm, lots of good questions, but first here's a couple of pics of before and after roll crimping.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PB010088.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PB010089.JPG

These had 80# pounds of pressure put directly on the ends of the boolits, to seat them completely into the sabots, and to put pressure on the OP wad and card wad. That left between .390 and .410 between the end of the sabot petals and the end of the shell.

Oh, I found another use for bullplate lube. It works great for lubing the roll crimper. That makes the roll crimp oh so smooth and perfessional looking!:mrgreen::bigsmyl2:

Now, I just tried to see where the boolit would have to sit to allow the tits to engage the crimp groove. OMG the boolit would be at least ¼ inch from the bottom of the sabot! I do have some ¼ .410 card wads, but that would make the boolit stick way out in front of the end of the petals. Not worth trying IMHO.

As for the gas check rebate, it makes an impression in the bottom of the sabot, caused by acceleration upset. That seems like it might help grip the boolit even better than if it were full caliber down there. I'm not about to try anything else, why argue with success?

AND this is getting expensive. I got another 2 bags of sabots, but I'm running out of primed MT'S. I haven't tried REloading any of the fired shells,,,YET. I may do that, the crimps don't look that bad.

[snuffy]

Another range session. Today I decided to go try longer ranges. I sighted in about 2" high @ 50 yds.

I got to thinking about the Lyman sabot slugs I had cast about a year ago. I came up with a load from the Lyman shotshell handbook. 35.0 grains of IMR 4756, a AA red wad, WW 209 primer, in a rem. gun club hull. The following pic is the 50 yd. target with the BP sabot scope adjuster group around the upper bull. The lower group is four of the Lyman sabot slugs. Not bad for picking a load out of a book! I expected them to kick a lot harder than they did. I didn't bother to set up the chrono, so I have to remain in the dark as to velocity.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/50yd%20sabot.jpg

Next I went to the 100 yd range. The next pic is the scanned target from the 100 yd range. The 30 cal holes are from my Savage .308 that I was sighting in/shooting a group. It never has been a tack driver!

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/100yd%20sabot.jpg

Horizontal stringing, can't figure that one out! But what is surprising is the elevation stayed the same as 50! Then I moved over to the 200 yd range. That 3 shot group had to be measured with a tape measure! :( 19 inches wide by 4" high, with a drop of 14".

All the sabots looked identical to the ones from Friday, near perfect opening, no damage. The 200 yd sabots were all in a 6' circle about 20 feet in front of the bench.

I'm not through messing with these sabots. But I'm through for now, I'll hunt with this load in this years season.

[Dixie Slugs]

We are all new to this BPI sabot, but from what I have seen done on Cast Boolits there is potential indeed. The point being is the folks here started from scratch and figured out the blown sabot's problems. Since Dixie is interested in a load for the hunting market, we must use the sabots themselves as they come from BPI....no cutting off the bases, etc. As all of you know that have been following this project....the single most important fact was/is to have a very firm wad column under the sabot!
Now....it looks to me that there are many designs of cast that can be used in the sabot ....as long as the shoulder/ogive of the bullet is up around .630" (at the tits in the petals)...even if some little nitros are used to build up the height. I really do not think it hurts if there are lube grooves or whatever on the bullet...and even leaving off the gas checks.
When the molds we have ordered come in and are tested...we will show photos ofwaht we fine...good or bad.
Again...I think the real potential here is the many types/designs of cast bullet that look like they can be used!
Great work, Team!
Regards, James

[44man]

Snuffy, I have been playing with the Lyman Sabot slug since it first came out. I can't get consistency no matter how I load, pressure, no pressure, new cases, fold crimp or roll crimp, all powders listed, soft lead, hard lead, etc.
Sometimes I would get 5 shots almost touching at 50 yd's, the next time they scatter all over.
The red wads get destroyed and that changes as the temperature does. If it is cold, they break up faster. Most look like a petal or two is run over by the slug, twisting the wad in the bore. Shot wads are just not strong enough.
I have bought every kind of wad from BP trying to get a firmer one without luck.
The Lee slug is also hard to get to work as is the Lyman full size slug and two sizes of round balls. There is just no predicting where they will go. I can't tell you the years I have been trying to load slugs and have NEVER had one shoot as good as the WW slugs. I bought the rifled Hastings and it has not made it any easier.
Wads blown into hollow bases, no matter how or what wads are made from, even a filler of every kind put in the hollow including resin and micro balloons did not make them accurate.
There is just nothing that can be bought that will equal factory slug loads and is why I am putting my faith in the BLS-12 sabot.
Like you, I have too much other work to do right now so I can't test for a while or cut any mold blocks. I have to cut cherries and size dies too.
Then the question of what the boolit should be shaped like! [smilie=1:

[snuffy]

44 man, the AA red wads looked pretty good after firing. I was pleasantly surprised. I only wish I had taken the time to set up the chrono, then I'd have learned a bit more. Those were star crimped with about 30# of wad pressure applied before crimping. They don't list a roll crimped load for any of their sabot loadings, just the foster type.

I agree that the standard plastic wads are too soft to take the beating they receive carrying a sabot through a barrel. An idea I have is to try some steel shot wads. They are usually much harder/tougher, but also thicker. May be a future project![smilie=1:

Another idea is to anchor the barrel extension of that 870 barrel to the receiver. Via a screw through the receiver into the barrel extension. I did that on the smooth bore barrel, it seemed to make a difference. That MAY be the reason for the horizontal stringing I got.

Lots of ideas, damn little time left before I put it to work!

[44man]

I tried steel shot wads but the Lyman slug will need to be sized to fit. A future experiment.
My Hastings fits the receiver tight and I get no dispersion with the hammer head slugs at 100 yd's. Accuracy was amazing but since I don't hunt with the gun, I don't like to spend the money. This is only a fun game for me.
I think it was luck that the Red wads were OK when you shot. I have had it happen but not very often. Most of the time they are destroyed. Any time a wad is ruined, the accuracy is gone.
Please do more work with the Lyman, if something works, let me know.

[44man]

I tried some different gas wads this time. First I put a .060" LDPE wad in the bottom of the sabot. On top of that I put a disk cut from a .125" nitro card, to raise the 350 gr Hornady.
First I tried just the FS12 under the sabot in a 3" shell. That didn't work at all, the bullet going through all the wads.

However it worked better in the 2-3/4" shell and all gas seals were intact. One sabot has the LDPE and paper wad driven down into the cushion of the sabot and neither one recovered showed signs of the sabot opening. I had about a 2' pattern. It shows promise and might work with felt wads under the bullet for more cushion. It is the 5 gr difference in charge between the 3" and 2-3/4" that was easier on the load.

Then I tried a 1/4" hard card between the sabot and FS12 in the 3" shell. All of those were destroyed with the bullets almost making it through the gas seal.
I found a sabot at 55 yd's and one of the LDPE disks at 60 yd's.
None of the petals show any sign of taking the rifling even though I had a tight fit in the bore from the bullet pushing the tits.
I have one bullet left and have to wait until I buy or make a mold.
I put 80# of pressure on all loads without any damage to the cushion sections. I only have Clays powder and I reduced the loads for all shots. I suppose cutting the charge in the 3" shells to the 2-3/4" load and using more wads under the sabot might work better.
They are fun to shoot, kind of like shooting blanks! :bigsmyl2:

[Red River Rick]

Interesting thread, lots of good information. Nice to see a few members here have tried a couple of various bullets with some positive results, but I’m thinking that a larger diameter bullet may help improve the accuracy.

The lack of any rifling engraved on some of the recovered sabots would lend me to believe that the bullets used for testing, in conjunction with the sabot, are/where to small to properly fill the bore. Therefore, contributing to the lack of good accuracy.

I have a Remington 870 Express, with a “Cantilever” fully rifled barrel and have been pondering the idea of loading some saboted rounds, which will be a lot cheaper than the factory rounds. The groove diameter on my barrel measures 0.727" - 0.728", and with this 0.510" diameter bullet, that'll make the assembled bullet/sabot measure at about the same diameter or slightly larger (which will be OK).

Based on the information posted earlier, I machined a mould to cast bullets for these new sabots. The bullet diameter is 0.510”, and drops out of the mould at 460 grains, cast in WW. I’m going to load a few rounds up using Blue Dot, starting out with 30 grains and then gradually increasing the load by 1 grain increments until signs of pressure present themselves. I have lots of different hulls, so I’ll try loading various makes and see what the results are.

If anyone is interested in this new bullet, you can send me a PM, I’ll pass on the specs.

RRR

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/12Gauge460gr002.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/RedRiverRick/12Gauge460gr001.jpg

[snuffy]

That's a nice looking boolit Rick, it should solve the problem of bullet/boolit fit inside the sabot. At least for the sabots available now. I suspect a BLS II will be forthcoming, with thicker petals to accommodate .500 J-word projectiles. Maybe even a thicker base of the cushion section as well. I suspect the dies for making a complicated plastic casting like this sabot are very expensive. Altering them might be less expensive, but there's no going back either.

I've given up on hunting with the shotgun this year, as the season starts Saturday. The last 2 range sessions produced flyers at all ranges, even after eliminating the old Tasco scope as a potential group wrecker. The new Nikon prostaff 2-7X32 didn't help. This was with the C501-440-RF lee boolit. Cast of 20-1 and 450 grains, it comes out at .502-.503.

I stuck a sabot in the barrel of the 870 cantilever, then put a ½ to ¾ snap gauge inside the sabot petal below the nibs. It measured .504-.505. So my boolits have about .002 clearance. NOT what you want for a sabot to impart spin and be consistent. My bore comes out a a nominal .729. If it were the other way around, as it would be with your boolits, THEN I would expect better groups.

Not having a machine shop at my disposal, I can't do much to alter or create a mold. I'd love to be able to punch the lube grooves and gascheck out of that lee mold to produce a cylinder like yours. Then a reamer to finish at a final size. Question, how much do you have to allow for shrinkage, in other words, what is your mold machined at? I may bug the local gunshop owner, he likes experiments AND casting boolits, he may work with me on a project like this. His Jet mill would work, all I need is a ½" drill and a reamer of the right size.

[Red River Rick]

Question, how much do you have to allow for shrinkage, in other words, what is your mold machined at?

Snuffy:

I machined the cavity to 0.5135" - 0.5140". Casting with W/W, the bullet drops out of the mould at 0.510" - 0.5105". I've loaded about 50 rounds, using Blue Dot. Started out at 30 grains and quit at 35 grs. I what to try them and see how well they group, velocity isn't important right now.

I"ll have to wait until the weekend before I get the chance to try these loads, I'll post my findings as soon as they're available.

RRR

[snuffy]

Thanks Rick, I did an ask.com search, got the MSC site for machine tools. They've got a reamer that should do the job set up in a mill.
http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1700338

.5118 is 13 mm, it should be able to enlarge the cavity in my lee mold without drilling first. From what I'm told by machinists at work, I can enlarge a hole by .010 without a problem, especially in aluminum.

Then there's this one, a bit closer to your diameter, and less expensive.
http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1700602

Is your mold aluminum? I wonder if the mold material makes a difference? Pure guessing right now, I should be getting packed and knives sharpened for leaving for the woods tomorrow.:mrgreen:

[Red River Rick]

Snuffy:

I make all my moulds out of Dura-Bar 65-45-12 (ductile iron), its extruded, not cast and was designed for use in the mould making industry. It takes heat very well and lends itself well to very little or no warping or distorsion.

Check out: http://www.kbctools.com/usa/main.cfm

They have chucking reamers available in 0.001" increments, so looking for that special size shouldn't be a problem. I don't use a reamer or cherri cutter when cutting my moulds, I program my CNC mill, so machining a certain diameter isn't a problem.

I'll try to get a picture, of the mould I made for this new boolit, posted this evening, so you can see for yourself.

Leave the mould making for later, get your gear packed and concentrate on the task ahead of you, HUNTING. Good Luck!

RRR

[snuffy]

Well, here's what I came up with so far. I went to KBC tools, ordered a .514 reamer. Figuring .004 shrinkage. I reamed one cavity of this 2 cavity mold.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PC080098.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PC080099.JPG

That's the 50 cal mold I was using before to cast for the sabots. So much for the good news. The mold casts at .514, using the 20-1 alloy. The mold measures .516, the reamer cut a little big. At that size, the bullets won't enter the bottom of the sabots. I may try some wheel weights to see if they shrink more. I see that lee has a push through sizer at .510. One is on the way, should get here tue.

Rick, how did yours shoot?

[Jim]

http://www.hastingsbarrels.com/choke.html