lead non HP for self defense

[Whiterabbit]

Dumb question. If you have a cartridge that is far bigger than needed to do the job, say a 357 magnum, then is it possible to backtrack on premium bullet construction while maintaining reasonable effectiveness?

So, the way I figure, practice with 1000 rounds of bullet A is better than practice with 100 rounds of premium bullet B at the same cost. Goes to muscle memory, confidence in the reliability of the round, ability to hit what you aim at, etc. But if the cost is the same, the bullet for the 1k rounds is not going to be a premium bullet. It's replacing an XTP mag with a cast lead bullet with solid meplat (as one example). This might be an issue if the cartridge is at the bottom end of the power spectrum (32 acp?). But if there's no worries about power, like 357 mag, 10mm, etc, Then the question is: Can I substitute premium bullets for practicing WITH a preferred SD loading. Seems prudent.

And if that is the case, given that the premium bullets for 38 +p seem to be in the 125 grain weight range, even lighter, of course with massive hollowpoints, what would be a reasonable equivalent load for a 357 using a budget friendly bullet? hammerhead? WFN? 158? 180? stick with 125? Hardcast wadcutter?

What do you think?

(or am I thinking about it too much, and should just buy the cheapest 158 SWC I can find, practice, carry, and be confident)

[Wheelguns 1961]

I think that you are overthinking it. I use cast hollowpoints for my self defense rounds. I don’t use hollowpoints for hunting. The reason I use hollowpoints for self defense, is because they are supposed to expand and dump their energy in the target, and not travel through the target and go into the house next door, or the room where your daughter is sleeping. This is not a problem in the woods. Since I cast my own, I practice with the same thing that I carry. This is my opinion and my logic. Others will disagree.

[onelight]

Nothing wrong with using cheaper bullets for practice a piece of paper won’t know the difference between cast bullet a fmj or a premium hp but it might be wise work in plenty in the same weight and velocity range as your carry ammo.:bigsmyl2:

[GhostHawk]

Trigger time is trigger time, what bullet you are using makes little difference IMO.

I agree with wheelguns about over penetration indoors. I actually vastly prefer the shotgun for inside the house.

Pistol is for getting too the shotgun if needed.

My 9mm semi pistol is kept loaded with factory hollow points. But I practice with my cast boolits over moderate charges of Red Dot. No HP's there as they are not needed for punching paper.

My two .32's don't yet have any factory loads. So they remain loaded with my Lee .314 90 grain truncated cone with BLL over 2 grains of Red Dot.

It is your pistol, your call. Me I prefer to cast my own and use them. Load them as reasonable as possible and not even think about ammo cost when I am at the range.

[tazman]

I don't worry too much about using a magnum level cartridge for defense unless I am defending against vehicles. Very few people will be able to stand up to a 200 grain SWC moving along at 800fps or so.
45 caliber holes don't need much in the way of expansion to get the job done.
That 800-850fps load is easy to control and very accurate in my guns. I get 3 inch groups at 15 yards with them. A good shooter could do much better.
For the 9mm, I use hardball or XTPs. You get two holes(front and back) and I don't have to worry about who is in the next room where I live.
For 38 special, I use 158 grain RNFP or full wadcutters at standard full power depending on which revolver I happen to have in my hand. Superbly accurate and enough to get the job done.

Which gun I pick up depends on where I happen to be standing in the house at the moment. I practice with all of them enough to make sure I won't have a mistake when I pick one up. Usually 200-300 rounds per week.

[jcren]

I worked up a load that has simular feel and poi of the factory ammo my wife carries (i carry handloads). Works great except that the nose is a bit fat powdercoated and will ftf one in 10 or 20 in her pistol. Planned to get a better mold, but noticed she has gotten much more familiar with what to do if it doesn't go bang, and decided that is not such a bad thing.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Whiterabbit, YES!
I’m strongly in favor of full wadcutters cast soft and driven hard. Especially in the magnums, they can produce moderate expansion, good penetration and are great performers under 50 yards.

I suggest you line up gallon water jugs and shoot through them. I like my defensive boolits to stop in the fourth water jug and shred the first couple of jugs. It’s a great way to compare boolit to JHP performance, and boolit to boolit performance.

I’ve used cast hollow points in 357, 9 and 40. But the noses tend to blow up and limit penetration to the second jug. I’ve switched to cup points (NOE molds) and the boolits stay together, expand and penetrate to the 4th jug. My typical alloy is 96% pb, 2% sn and 2% sb, air cooled and I usenFelix lube.

My 38’s, 44s (Spl and mag) and 45 Colt all use soft wadcutters. I do still have some 357 soft wadcutter loads that work great, but I’m playing with the cup points now and they’re doing just fine too.

[FergusonTO35]

For any purposeone might use a firearm, I suscribe to an old adage: Shot placement is king and penetration is queen. For .38 Special wheelguns I use 150 grain SWC's loaded about halfway between standard and +P. .380 Auto gets a 100 grain plated flat point at 930 fps from my Glock 42. And, my 9's get a 124 grain plated flat point around 1000 fps. All are super accurate, easy to shoot, and reliable.

[bmortell]

I may be misunderstanding your question but for revolvers in particular theres no need for your practice ammo to be the premium carry load. in autos you'd want to shoot a decent amount to ensure function but revolvers one cylinder full can tell you all you need to know as long as you measure crimp jump on last one. this being the case I have no problem paying premium for a box since its all I need to buy, then just cast cheap for practice rounds.


so ya I get the tying to save money thing but I don't think revolver SD ammo is a place its needed. it sounds like you want low recoil 357 ammo id just buy a box of golden sabers, they do about 1130 in a 2 inch (slightly more than 38+p) and aren't super expensive. sure you could come up with a cast load that replicates the reliable expansion and pen depth after a while working on it but I don't think its worth it over a 15 dollar box unless your shooting your carry load all the time for some reason. most cast loads you were mentioning would have collateral damage concerns behind the target.

[Petrol & Powder]

I am in total agreement that trigger time is trigger time. There is little need to expend large amounts of costly SD ammo in practice BUT the bullet weight of the practice ammo needs to duplicate the bullet weight of the SD ammo.

I agree with bmortell - if carrying a semi-auto you need to be certain that your SD load will function with 100% reliability in your gun. That requires more than just a magazine or two worth of cartridges fired through the gun. Revolvers are a bit more forgiving in terms of functioning.

When selecting SD ammo I am a BIG fan of long track records. I do not like fads, gimmicks, new trends, etc. Pick something with a well established track record and then pick a less expensive practice load that has the same bullet weight. Try to avoid huge differences in the velocities of the practice load and SD load but absolutely keep the projectile weights very close between the two.

Going back to the OP - I disagree that the premium bullet weight for the 38 Special +P is 125 grain. Not saying that's a bad projectile weight but I wouldn't use the word "premium" in that context.

When shooting a revolver, bullet weight is a key factor in point of impact vs. point of aim. So, if your SD load of choice utilizes a 125 grain projectile then your practice load should use the same bullet weight.

[Tripplebeards]

I think that you are overthinking it. I use cast hollowpoints for my self defense rounds. I don’t use hollowpoints for hunting. The reason I use hollowpoints for self defense, is because they are supposed to expand and dump their energy in the target, and not travel through the target and go into the house next door, or the room where your daughter is sleeping. This is not a problem in the woods. Since I cast my own, I practice with the same thing that I carry. This is my opinion and my logic. Others will disagree.

Unless your alloy is too hard.lol check out my post first deer(s) with cast boolits using the Lyman devastator. I casted them out if 80/20 plus 12 % pewter with a BH of 15.4. They blew through three deer with a boolit diameter exit. Pushed them with 21.2 grains of lil gun with a MV of 1750 fps. Two out of the three deer ran a 100 yards. The third one dropped on the spot but kicked around a good 10 plus yards. I definitely would want a soft expanding boolit if I was trying to stop something in its tracks because HARD boolits didn't for me even with all the rib bone fragments that shattered inside the animals. IMO something close to pure lead would expand and shed lead causing the most trauma for as close to an instant shock and death. If not, it will be so soft that it will only penatrate so far and the energy and shock will stay inside your perp and I would think knock them sideways...if not down. Kind of like a varmint ballistic tip. Guess I'll find out next season when I try the same HP boolit with an alloy of 7.5 BH pushed at 1575fps.

If you check my home page I shot a few through my S&W 329 nite guard with a minimum charge of trail boss using AC COWW plus 2% pewter. The boolits expanded and just barely passed through one wood pallet. I found the expanded boolits laying on the ground next to the pallet I shot at from 10/15 yards away if I remember. Just depends on your alloy choice. I have the pics of my expanded boolits on my member page.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I practice more with a 22LR just for trigger time and mussel memory

[Whiterabbit]

Learning how to shoot a safari rifle taught me I cannot shoot my CZ455 trainer and expect to have the right discipline when shooting 510 wells express in a CZ550. My school of thought is that we "play like we practice." That's the discipline I follow these days.

[charlie b]

I agree that trigger time is key. But, I think it needs to be with the weapon you carry as well. Unless maybe all you have are DA wheel guns. I have a revolver, 1911, HK striker fired (no manual safety) and a DA/SA auto (with safety). I practice mainly with the HK since I carry it more. I had 1911's for over 30 years so I have some trouble with a pistol that has no safety. The HK is more like a revolver, point and pull trigger. Then there is that big difference between a DA trigger and a single action.

I have never used premium ammo for practice. I either cast my own or I buy cheap bullets for reloading These days I shoot a lot of the plated lead bullets.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[FergusonTO35]

Learning how to shoot a safari rifle taught me I cannot shoot my CZ455 trainer and expect to have the right discipline when shooting 510 wells express in a CZ550. My school of thought is that we "play like we practice." That's the discipline I follow these days.

No, I imagine a .22 would not make effective practice for a .50 caliber anything!

[Tom W.]

I carry what I practice with, and cast what I carry.

God forbid that the time comes that I'll have to shoot a person, but I want to be confident with my loads.

[RED BEAR]

I don't feel that you must use the premium ammo to practice with but i load my practice ammo to be comparable to the premium. Bullet weight and velocity pretty much the same. So the recoil of gun will be bout the same. I must say that my new carry gun has me rethinking this a little . I now carry a 23 oz 41 mag and much more than a couple boxes at a time really take a toll on my old hands.

[Tripplebeards]

I just loaded up 150, 44 mag devastators with a BH of 7.5. If they don't penatrate a Kevlar vest they'll lift the perp up, up, and away with the 21 grains of H110 I loaded them with. What ever you choose cast them soft as a self defense bolt/bullets are made to be fragile so they don't pass through the bad guy, through the wall, and into the unknown.




http://i.imgur.com/CxBISZN.jpg

[wv109323]

I would search the net for some info. There was a man that worked in the coroners office in Atlanta,Ga. He worked there for something like 20 years. Untold autopsies on gunshot victims. His perspective was unique after 1000's of autopsies. He was not big on hollowpoints under 40 caliber. He also said most manufacturers hype on hollowpoints is just hype. He says bullet performance in the human body has little resemblence to ballistic gelatin.
The important thing was not what the bullet started out as but where the bullet ended up at and what it went through to get there.
The ideal bullet / ballustics could not be determined, until the autopsy was completed.

[bob208]

I loaded 358429 to about 1000 fps for police use back in the bay. not much will just stand there when slapped with that 180 gr. bullet at that speed.

[725]

Police departments across the country used lead 158 gr SWC's for decades, with good effect. I have seen them work very well, even against heavily clothed subjects. This is another case of so many work well, there is no definitive right or wrong. Enough speed with enough weight, works.

[bmortell]

id have to disagree, potential risk from agreeing is too high. saving 5 dollars by calling expensive ammo "hype ammo" is fun, but if one don't expand, overpenatrates and hits a bystander that 5 dollars isn't gonna cover the damage. also don't think it matters if gel isn't accurate cause there no logical reason why it wouldnt proportionally translate to scale when comparing different loads.

for home defense or carry in public load mitigating over pen is top priority and a good factory loaded hollow point or a soft expanding cast should be chosen and tested in your gun with several water based mediums to be sure of reliable expansion before carrying it. woods carry is different and a solid may be better in that case. in example loading your CCW 357 with 180gr flatpoints before heading off shopping probably not a good idea, much safer with something that can be catched with loose cloth after going through 10-12 inches of water. when people say things like shot placement is what matters that don't mean all your other responsibilities are gone.

[mold maker]

With hunting or target loads, choosing the best combo load is easy since there is ample time to test and improve for a given circumstance.
Self defence demands use of what is onboard regardless of situation. ie Still-fast moving, heavy-light clothes, shot aimed-cntr mass, safe-no choice background, ect. The out-come may even depend on how many shots are available.
If the shape and content of the projectile is that important, your using too small a gun.

[FergusonTO35]

I would search the net for some info. There was a man that worked in the coroners office in Atlanta,Ga. He worked there for something like 20 years. Untold autopsies on gunshot victims. His perspective was unique after 1000's of autopsies. He was not big on hollowpoints under 40 caliber. He also said most manufacturers hype on hollowpoints is just hype. He says bullet performance in the human body has little resemblence to ballistic gelatin.
The important thing was not what the bullet started out as but where the bullet ended up at and what it went through to get there.
The ideal bullet / ballustics could not be determined, until the autopsy was completed.

I once talked to an old copper whose issue side irons spanned from the Colt Police Positive Special to the Glock 17. He said that the most effective handgun round he ever saw was the .38 +P 158 grain lead hollow point. He had sat in on the autopsies of perps who had their careers cut short by them and the results were always impressive. "One per customer is all you need!" he quipped.

[gwpercle]

160 grain cast wadcutter , Lyman # 358432-160 , or NOE's recreation ,
38 special +P load of 5.2 grains Unique .
The flat wadcutter nose hits hard and cuts a full diameter hole.
Get an NOE hollow point mould and you have a good SD boolit.
Gary

[RED BEAR]

Even though i carry a pretty large gun most times (41 mag). There are plenty of times i carry something a lot smaller 22, 25 or 32 acp . It is far more important where you hit than what you hit with. Most bad guys will stop doing bad things when shot with anything not wanting to be shot again. And if they don't thats why you don't carry a single shot. And i know a lot don't see the lowly 22 or 25 as a self-defense round but a hole in the head is a hole in the head and many a person has been laid low by those calibers. If you feel better carrying something bigger then by all means do so. I normally carry a substantial gun . The main point i am making is if you hit something in the right place it is more important than what you hit them with.

[FergusonTO35]

Even though i carry a pretty large gun most times (41 mag). There are plenty of times i carry something a lot smaller 22, 25 or 32 acp . It is far more important where you hit than what you hit with. Most bad guys will stop doing bad things when shot with anything not wanting to be shot again. And if they don't thats why you don't carry a single shot. And i know a lot don't see the lowly 22 or 25 as a self-defense round but a hole in the head is a hole in the head and many a person has been laid low by those calibers. If you feel better carrying something bigger then by all means do so. I normally carry a substantial gun . The main point i am making is if you hit something in the right place it is more important than what you hit them with.

:drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

I have constructed practice loads via reloading that closely duplicate my carry ammunition's performance characteristics for almost 40 years. Some of those loads use cast bullets, others use jacketed bullets.

[Chainsaw.]

No point in practicing with premium bullets. Load cheap ammo so you can get alot of trigger time, occasionally load some cheap bullets over a full power (SElf defense) load and shoot those to get the feel of shooting the full power loads. The recoil is the only real factor you need tk aorry about unless some how your point of impact is radically different.

[Jtarm]

Whiterabbit, YES!
I’m strongly in favor of full wadcutters cast soft and driven hard. Especially in the magnums, they can produce moderate expansion, good penetration and are great performers under 50 yards.

I suggest you line up gallon water jugs and shoot through them. I like my defensive boolits to stop in the fourth water jug and shred the first couple of jugs. It’s a great way to compare boolit to JHP performance, and boolit to boolit performance.

I’ve used cast hollow points in 357, 9 and 40. But the noses tend to blow up and limit penetration to the second jug. I’ve switched to cup points (NOE molds) and the boolits stay together, expand and penetrate to the 4th jug. My typical alloy is 96% pb, 2% sn and 2% sb, air cooled and I usenFelix lube.

My 38’s, 44s (Spl and mag) and 45 Colt all use soft wadcutters. I do still have some 357 soft wadcutter loads that work great, but I’m playing with the cup points now and they’re doing just fine too.

Have any pictures of your cup-point booits?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Just took one. 357 and 9mm NOE cup points. They’re really just shallow hollow points. 235765

[brewer12345]

I think the primary goal is trigger time. No reason to use premium ammo. Just shoot, a lot. Ideally you would spend at least part of the time shooting a load that has similar boolit weight and power as your defense load, but getting enough trigger time is the most important thing. If you can shoot your chosen gun almost in your sleep, switching up ammo when the time comes is unlikely to make much difference. I have a ways to go with my usual revolver for self defense, a long way to go with the 45 ACP, but with the shotgun I have shot thousands of rounds with for trap and killed everything from squirrels to geese I know I could make shots under stress because it is instinctive.

[FergusonTO35]

Just took one. 357 and 9mm NOE cup points. They’re really just shallow hollow points. 235765

Is your revolver a Security Six?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Ha. Yep that one is a high mileage 4” Security Six. It’s a 151 series. I’ve got another I like a little better that’s also a 4” 150 series. The 150 was hardly fired when I got it and has the better trigger of the two. The low back suits me fine. The 151, well it’s part of my security system. Carries well too.

[FergusonTO35]

Awesome, love those Sixes! I have a Service Six .38 in stainless from 1988, last year for them.

[Norske]

Am I the only one that uses Skeeter Skelton's load for 38 Special? It uses a swaged hollow base wadcutter bullet (from Hornady or Speer) seated backwards. I doubt it would penetrate heavy clothing very well, but it should work as a defense load when people wear light clothing.

[FergusonTO35]

Every test I have seen indicates that the backwards HBWC will likely plug up and behave like a standard wadcutter upon encountering heavy clothing.

[35remington]

Most report poor accuracy and tumbling of the bullet at anything much beyond powder burn range, which includes my experience. I’d rather load it with the front end to the front and rely upon the flat point for effect.

The accuracy was much too lacking for my taste when loaded with the hollow base to the fore. Penetration seems much too abbreviated when they do expand.

[tazman]

When I loaded the swaged hollow base wadcutters backwards in 38 special, the results were pathetic from both an accuracy and penetration standpoint.
When I did the same thing using my own cast version, acccuracy was much better, quite usable in fact since the boolits were a harder alloy. Unfortunately, there was little effective expansion since when the hollow opened up, the sides invariably broke off and I was left with the short, solid portion of the boolit.
Now I use a version of Lyman's 358432. It shoots really well and penetrates well also. It has a large meplat that, while it doesn't expand, has enough surface area to be effective.
The only way to really improve on it would be to cast it soft and with a standard type hollow point. NOE makes a version of this boolit that can be cast as a hollow point and should work quite well in that regard.

[Groo]

Groo here
When talking JHP many say an impact speed of 1000fps is needed to insure deformation .[in under .40 cal]
Faster is better .
This puts the smaller stuff at a disadvantage..
Even 9mm is on the edge...
When you go to 38super,357sig 357 mag there is a large jump in speed , 200 fps or greater at same weight bullet.
For jackets in revolver I like the Rem SJHP in the lighter weights , lots of lead exposed...
Autos need jackets all the way up to feed well and dont deform as easy.
SOFT cast is very different , but still needs close to 1000 fps to work well..

[FergusonTO35]

I must say, the Remington UMC .38 +P 125 grain SJHP with a thin, scalloped jacket works really well. Back when I had an SP-101 I tested it in dry and wet newspaper and was impressed how much it opened up. The exposed lead nose expanded easily, the jacketed part fairly little.

[Jtarm]

Another vote for the .38 full wadcutter.

An expanding bullet may or may not expand.

A full wadcutter will always cut a .357 hole and penetrate in a straight line.

It does all that with minimal recoil and shoots to POA in most fixed sight revolvers.

[Blammer]

Most report poor accuracy and tumbling of the bullet at anything much beyond powder burn range, which includes my experience. I’d rather load it with the front end to the front and rely upon the flat point for effect.

The accuracy was much too lacking for my taste when loaded with the hollow base to the fore. Penetration seems much too abbreviated when they do expand.

so, if the bullet hits sideways do you think it will hurt more or less?

:D

[tazman]

so, if the bullet hits sideways do you think it will hurt more or less?

:D

Sorry to say it but, hitting sideways, it may just bounce off if the person is wearing a winter coat. Lots of surface area that way. It would definitely hurt but might not kill.

[T_McD]

Learning how to shoot a safari rifle taught me I cannot shoot my CZ455 trainer and expect to have the right discipline when shooting 510 wells express in a CZ550. My school of thought is that we "play like we practice." That's the discipline I follow these days.

Well yea I would train with the same gun which means the same cartridge.

You mentioned cost per round so I will assume you are not fabulously wealthy. Use coated lead bullets to train and your favorite SD round to carry, keep grain weight reasonably close.

Practice is the key here, not components.

[bmortell]

I don't think a sideways wadcutter could be stopped by heavy fabric, when I was testing heavy fabric as a catch box for being behind water or whatever, blunt bullets required 350-400fps to go through a layer, of course that would vary a good amount with shape and materials, but doubling speed would vastly increase how much fabric it could go through. I would go try for fun but its all ice 20 degrees high wind outside. not that I recommend backwards, but testing would be fun anyway.

also Im surprised that I still seem to be the only person on the thread with oven penetration concerns, ive watched many hundred self defense incidents and there's usually people around the background. to me something that could go through a gallon jug a few layers of loose fabric then a jug or two more should be woods use only or home defense if its safe in your area, definitely not public safe if you ask me.

[Chad5005]

I normally carry a 45 acp with cast 230 gr hp,if not its a 45 colt with 275gr hp or 44mag with 270gr hp all loaded about .5 gr under max load,i don't want to have to shoot a perp 2 or 3 times,im in a wheelchair so it does make it a little easier for me to hide a large weapon

[T_McD]

I don't think a sideways wadcutter could be stopped by heavy fabric, when I was testing heavy fabric as a catch box for being behind water or whatever, blunt bullets required 350-400fps to go through a layer, of course that would vary a good amount with shape and materials, but doubling speed would vastly increase how much fabric it could go through. I would go try for fun but its all ice 20 degrees high wind outside. not that I recommend backwards, but testing would be fun anyway.

also Im surprised that I still seem to be the only person on the thread with oven penetration concerns, ive watched many hundred self defense incidents and there's usually people around the background. to me something that could go through a gallon jug a few layers of loose fabric then a jug or two more should be woods use only or home defense if its safe in your area, definitely not public safe if you ask me.

I am not worried about over penetration near as much as outright misses. I think many folks fail to consider the likelihood of a poor back stop in a self defense scenario. If folks are in the background, that’s a no shoot for me.