Accuracy expectations?

[fatelk]

I have an AR I've been tinkering with. ARs aren't typically my thing, but they're so cheap an popular nowadays it's hard to resist.

I've been fiddling with it off and on for a while, put it together cheap a few years ago. It's mostly run-of-the-mill parts like DPMS. I had a friend get a barrel for me that he said was better than average and should be accurate.

About the best it would do is 1.25 to 1.5" groups at 100 yards. No, that's not terrible, and I don't NEED anything better, really. I never shoot past 100 yards (no access to longer range), and I'm not a hunter or an "operator". I have other rifles that are more accurate anyway, but I like to tinker so I thought I'd see what I could do. I picked up an A2 stock kit at a show to replace the wobbly collapsible stock. I bought a $100 Geissele trigger when they were on sale at Brownells. I bought a better scope mount and put a spare Leupold scope on it, instead of the Bushnell Banner I was using. I tried a variety of bullet weights and loads.

How does it shoot? Consistently 1.25" to 1.5" groups @100yrds. No improvement at all. So I get looking at the barrel my friend said was a good one known for accuracy. It's a Red X Arms barrel. A quick Google search tells me that I'm probably lucky it's as accurate as it is! So now I'll be looking around for another barrel, a decently accurate mid-length barrel on a reasonable budget. Either that or be happy with it as it is, but having already spent the other money on it, that seems a waste.

I went through this kind of thing many years ago. I bought a Colt HBAR back in the late 90's. I was disappointed with it from the very start. No matter what I did it just wasn't terribly accurate. It was a 2moa rifle at best. I ended up putting a different barrel, trigger, and free-float handguard on it, and it shoots a good 3/4moa now (about the limits of my abilities).

It always gets me when I some internet expert talk about how their M4-style carbine will shoot sub-moa "all day long", using bulk fmj ammo. I'd like to see that.

Anyone have a suggestion for a good mid-length barrel that won't break the bank? Am I likely to need a .223 chamber to get the accuracy I'd like, as opposed to the more common 5.56? Am I likely to end up going to a free-float handguard too? I don't need competition bench-rest accuracy (would be wasted on me anyhow), but something capable of consistently better than 1moa would be nice.

[trails4u]

Cheap AR that shoots 1.5? I woulda stopped there.

[Steelshooter]

I consider Palmetto state armory the best of the cheaper barrels. But before I would buy a new barrel I would try free floating the barrel, squaring the receiver and bedding the barrel into the receiver.

[Bigslug]

Anyone have a suggestion for a good mid-length barrel that won't break the bank? Am I likely to need a .223 chamber to get the accuracy I'd like, as opposed to the more common 5.56? Am I likely to end up going to a free-float handguard too? I don't need competition bench-rest accuracy (would be wasted on me anyhow), but something capable of consistently better than 1moa would be nice.

A barrel that's permanently attached to the action of a Remington 700, Ruger 77, or Savage 110 would be a good start. Honestly, you've got a rifle built from Lego blocks that will hold a deer's eye socket at a hundred yards. Rather than sink an ever-growing pile of money into a list of "well, THAT didn't work, let's try ________" consider the following:

GET OFF THE SANDBAGS! and use that rifle to practice shooting from field positions. The gun as it is will not miss a soup can or a water bottle from 200 yards if the operator does his job right. Doing so will give you a much better idea of what YOU can do. I used to chase bughole groups until it dawned on me to ask the question "What is this rifle FOR?", and in the case of a lot of my rifles, the answer was "hit the vital area of a large mammal from an improvised position from under 300 yards (experience has shown from under half that). A deer heart is about 4" across, and his usable target area about 8". A Soviet soldier is about 18". By the former standard, you have a 600 yard rifle; by the latter, over 1000. Keep it real - burn out the existing throat & be happy with it.

[Tackleberry41]

There is also 223 wylde, still shoot 5.56 but the better accuracy of a 223. I bought an AR stoner barrel, and it shoots really well.

[Black Powder Bill]

Pm sent have 6 barrels here. 1-9 twist . You need length 16" -20" Will look at manufacturer. Bushmaster I'll npost in swap later on.

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[dragon813gt]

You get what you pay for when it comes to AR barrels. Sometimes you’re lucky, the OP is w/ that barrel, and you get more than you pay for. This usually isn’t the case. Spend the money on the likes of a White Oak Armament or Krieger barrel if you’re trying to get every bit of accuracy out of an AR.

I don’t expect the cheap barrels to shoot any better then minute of man. Have a couple of Wilson Arms barrels that are little better than that. Perfectly acceptable for what I paid.

[fatelk]

A barrel that's permanently attached to the action of a Remington 700, Ruger 77, or Savage 110 would be a good start. Honestly, you've got a rifle built from Lego blocks that will hold a deer's eye socket at a hundred yards. Rather than sink an ever-growing pile of money into a list of "well, THAT didn't work, let's try ________" consider the following:

GET OFF THE SANDBAGS! and use that rifle to practice shooting from field positions. The gun as it is will not miss a soup can or a water bottle from 200 yards if the operator does his job right. Doing so will give you a much better idea of what YOU can do. I used to chase bughole groups until it dawned on me to ask the question "What is this rifle FOR?", and in the case of a lot of my rifles, the answer was "hit the vital area of a large mammal from an improvised position from under 300 yards (experience has shown from under half that). A deer heart is about 4" across, and his usable target area about 8". A Soviet soldier is about 18". By the former standard, you have a 600 yard rifle; by the latter, over 1000. Keep it real - burn out the existing throat & be happy with it.

Thank you for the response, but I think we’re talking apples and oranges. I have plenty of other accurate hunting rifles, and I haven’t hunted in 20 years. I hope to never hunt again, because if I do it would only be because my family was hungry. Nothing against hunting, but it’s just not for me. I hunted for years when I was younger just because it was the “man thing to do”, until one day I realized that I didn’t particularly enjoy it, and had other things I’d rather be doing. I haven’t hunted since. More game for the rest of you!

I know exactly what this rifle is for. It’s a “range toy” for shooting paper targets from sand bags. Something to tinker with for fun.

I still don’t have that much money into it, really. From looking around I can get a pretty good barrel with the Wylde chamber for about $250 (thanks Tackleberry). I might just leave it as is until I can justify that. I’m not in a hurry for it; it’s been a work in progress for years. Or I could take a chance on a good used barrel. Thank you for the offer Bill. I’ll return your pm in a while.

I have to shake my head every time I see someone at the range with an expensive new AR with an expensive scope, and they’re blasting away at 25 yards. One guy a while back I overheard bragging to his buddy about the high-dollar barrel on his, and he had a red dot sight on it, doing “mag dumps”. But then again I guess I’m not much better with what I’m doing.

[Tackleberry41]

I don't know people expect alot out of these rifles. Somehow in 1988, we managed to get good scores at the Parris Island range with some pretty questionable M16A2 w iron sights, that included 500yds. People anymore think they need a 10x scope to shoot 100yds. Or expect one out of the box w cheap Wolf ammo to give one hole groups.

[Texas by God]

Palmetto premium grade barrels are made by FN USA.
Good enough for Govt work.
Literally.

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[marek313]

I consider Palmetto state armory the best of the cheaper barrels. But before I would buy a new barrel I would try free floating the barrel, squaring the receiver and bedding the barrel into the receiver.

PSA uses many FN barrels in their ARs which are pretty nice considering the price. I think I paid extra $100 to get FN chrome lined, cold hammer forged barrel in my PSA kit. I think it was worth it but you have to read the description carefully to make sure you get the right barrel.

[fatelk]

I don't know people expect alot out of these rifles. Somehow in 1988, we managed to get good scores at the Parris Island range with some pretty questionable M16A2 w iron sights, that included 500yds. People anymore think they need a 10x scope to shoot 100yds. Or expect one out of the box w cheap Wolf ammo to give one hole groups.

I think a lot of people exaggerate their marksmanship abilities, especially online, leading those who don’t know better to think any old AR can shoot that magical “MOA”.

It is fun though when you can get one to do it, especially for fairly cheap. My old Colt will absolutely shoot under 1moa, with the right ammo of course. The barrel on it is a no-name heavy barrel that I bought from Century for $50, maybe 15 years ago. The one nice thing about these “Lego guns” is that it doesn’t take a lot of special tools and skill to swap parts around.

[koger]

Well I am going to muddy the waters some. I have 2 AR-15's, one Bushmaster that has a 20" barrel in .223 Wylde chamber and a Anderson lower with Wilson upper .300 Bo, 16" Hvy Nitrided barrel. Both have floating barrels, and lightweight tube forearms. I have replaced both triggers with a aftermarket single stage trigger, that breaks at #3, crisp and feels closer to#2. I have good scopes and mounts on them. Both shot 1- 1&1/2" groups. Every once and a while, I would shoot under an inch. It dawned on me that I did not have a good cheek weld. I ordered a pair of riser blocks that clamp on to the collapsible stock, and suddenly I had a great , solid sight picture. Now both shoot 1" groups or under, the .300 BO will shoot 3 shot groups with 9 different factory loads, under 1 inch at 100 yds. The .223 shoots 3/4 to 1" with HSM softnose 55 gr reloads and better with a handload. I guess I just got lucky, but doing one simple thing helped both guns greatly.

[Texas by God]

Kroger the stock weld thing is spot on. I like a fixed stock 16" setup; My daughter and son both have PSA uppers on Anderson lowers and they both will put three 77 gr reloads into an inch fairly regular. The bone stock FN15 I had would shoot moa with 80 gr Amax with the tips flattened for mag use. For a military grade rifle, the accuracy of the AR platform is probably second to none.

[fatelk]

Well I am going to muddy the waters some. I have 2 AR-15's, one Bushmaster that has a 20" barrel in .223 Wylde chamber and a Anderson lower with Wilson upper .300 Bo, 16" Hvy Nitrided barrel. Both have floating barrels, and lightweight tube forearms. I have replaced both triggers with a aftermarket single stage trigger, that breaks at #3, crisp and feels closer to#2. I have good scopes and mounts on them. Both shot 1- 1&1/2" groups. Every once and a while, I would shoot under an inch. It dawned on me that I did not have a good cheek weld. I ordered a pair of riser blocks that clamp on to the collapsible stock, and suddenly I had a great , solid sight picture. Now both shoot 1" groups or under, the .300 BO will shoot 3 shot groups with 9 different factory loads, under 1 inch at 100 yds. The .223 shoots 3/4 to 1" with HSM softnose 55 gr reloads and better with a handload. I guess I just got lucky, but doing one simple thing helped both guns greatly.

Sounds like you have some great shooters. This is what I was hoping to do with this one, with the A2 buttstock and trigger. What had really seemed to make the final difference on my old Colt (besides the barrel) was the free-float tube forearm. I was wondering if this is essential to fine accuracy on an AR style rifle.

I just realized, I could swap the forearm off the Colt and install it on this one for testing purposes. That would be cheap, relatively easy, and would tell me whether this barrel has any further potential accuracy.

[Adam20]

What ammo you using, I did not see that. With bulk 55 grain Hornady I get 1.5 average at 100yds

[fatelk]

I've tried several different kinds, from 50 to 69 grains. I prefer to shoot lighter bullets, since I don't do any long range shooting. The best was with Sierra 52gr match, the same load that shoots extremely well in my Remington 700.

Just to reiterate: this is a casual, long term project. I'm not frustrated or in a hurry to "make it work". I've been tinkering with it off and on for quite a while, and rather enjoy the challenge of learning and seeing how well I can make it shoot without pouring a bunch of money into it. I have plenty of other guns and I don't rely on this one for anything. I could just as well put it back in the safe for a couple years and continue the project in the future as time permits.

[Texas by God]

Definitely try the free float handgaurd.

[megasupermagnum]

I think a lot of people exaggerate their marksmanship abilities, especially online, leading those who don’t know better to think any old AR can shoot that magical “MOA”.

It is fun though when you can get one to do it, especially for fairly cheap. My old Colt will absolutely shoot under 1moa, with the right ammo of course. The barrel on it is a no-name heavy barrel that I bought from Century for $50, maybe 15 years ago. The one nice thing about these “Lego guns” is that it doesn’t take a lot of special tools and skill to swap parts around.

I think a lot has to do with what a "group" really is. Some guys will shoot 3 shots, and if it measures 1", that ammo in that gun shoots 1" to them. Some guys shoot 5 shots, some 15. Then it's a matter of group averages, rather than a cherry picked lucky group. There is a world apart between 3 shots, and 5-5 shot group average. Personally I feel 3 shots is about as useful as 2 shots, only good for adjusting sights.


The internet is what it is, but what really irks me is guys who will go through the trouble of shooting off the bench, then discount fliers. I've shot with a guy, more than once, who shooting 200 yards shot two 5 shot groups, different loads, that both were about 3" CTC from the farthest holes. He takes a look at each, and says this one is sweet *points to second target*. I asked why, they are both about 3"? He said the one had 4 shots inside of 1", and one flier, it must have been the wind. The other target was more randomly scattered. To this day, that is his "1/2 MOA" combo.
That said, I have seen some very accurate AR rifles. 3/4" is possible from a good barrel, and the right ammo. I remember one guy I saw shoot multiple 3/4" groups said the two biggest improvements he did to get there was a free floating handguard, and Douglas barrel. He was shooting factory ammo too.

[fatelk]

I have an old Mini-14 that I've had for over 30 years. My dad bought it back in the 80's. The first time I fired it, I shot a 3 shot group under an inch at 100 yards. I was amazed, and walked back to the bench to shoot another nice group, to be forever disappointed. Those first three shots were a total fluke.

I like to shoot five shot groups, and to be convinced of accuracy I need to see several good ones in a row. The occasional flyer means there is potential, but something is wrong, either with the gun or my technique.

Speaking of accuracy, I have another unrelated story. A friend of mine many years ago had joined the National Guard, and wanted to get some shooting practice. He bought a .22 rifle and came out to my house, since I lived in the country at that time and had a range out my back door. We set up a target at 25 yards. I gave him some basic pointers and let him shoot a few rounds at the bench. His shots were scattered around the paper target, maybe a 4" pattern, with one by sheer luck right in the bullseye.

I asked if I could shoot it, to see where it was sighted. I shot a nice little dime sized group high and right, as I recall (sights were off). He was ecstatic, and bragged that he had out-shot me! After all, one of his was in the bullseye!

[RoyEllis]

" I load 60 grain vmax with 25 grains of benchmark. It shoots .3” groups at 200 yards out of my POF."
Direct quote from a post made by a member on this very forum. Quite odd when one considers that the last I heard the standing NBRSA 200yd aggregate WORLD RECORD is .1558 moa...benchrest aggregate score is the average of usually 5 5shot groups divided by the distance in 100's of yards. Therefor, our illustrious members claim is that he & his off-the-rack AR 15 can outshoot (at will) a 10.5lb custom fitted 6PPC bolt rifle with a 36x scope, setting a new world record in the process as his .3" groups @ 200yds would be .1500 moa.
Yeah right.........

[lefty o]

the average ar is an inch to inch and a half gun @100. a good varmint ar typically 1/2-3/4", though some will do a bit better. set realistic expectations for whatever you are dealing with.

[55fairlane]

I shoot a rock river arms national match.....with hand loads and a sling my rifle will shot just under 1 1/2 m.o.a. out to 600......a free float hand gaurd and a good trigger are a must, but that being said any AR thatmshoots 1 to 1 1t2 m.o.a. is a winner........

[Black Powder Bill]

I had 2- M16 to use at North Island CA. after a few weeks of shooting I was able to hit a beer can at 200 meters off hand maybe every other shot 5 to 7 out of 10. The range armors wouldn't even allow me to clean the rifles.

I'd order 2 cans of cartridges and 2 rifles. Go to the range weekly for my training time. I was the assistant training petty office for the shop & because of my rate that allowed me to request the rifles and ammo. I'd like to again thank the AK2 in supply who informed me about the availability of cartridges allotted every month to the squadron that had not been used since 1975--this was 1977.

I have had a few pass by me and never owned one for myself. Just not what I want in a platform.

[fatelk]

I went out to the range this afternoon. We didn't have a lot of time and it was getting dark. I shot two five-round groups through the rifle in question. Two different loads, with a borrowed free-float handguard, one measured 1.5" and the other 1.8".

Just for comparison I shot five rounds through the old Colt. 100 yards, right at a half inch. I'll admit, I think that's a little bit of a lucky group. I don't have the skill to consistently shoot 1/2moa. I hadn't shot that rifle in at least a couple years, but it was always good for a consistent 3/4moa. I lucked out with the $50 barrel on it.

235139235140

[wrench man]

More often than not a chrome lined barrel WON'T be as accurate as a plain barrel, the chrome is for durability in full auto fire in humid conditions, NOT accuracy, I've got two DELTON "Government Profile" NON lined barrels on A2 platforms that are quite accurate for an AR!