Minimum velocity using a 255 grain WFN boolit out of my vaquero for whitetail

[Tripplebeards]

Probably 75 yards or under would be my max shot. I’m guessing I would need at least 850 FPS with the proper shot placement to get it done?

[Tom_in_AZ]

I’d say 850 would be plenty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quilbilly]

For perspective, a few years back I was muzzleloader elk hunting with a 260 gr SWC boolit in a sabot and got a huge cow elk (live weight over 500#) from about 50 yards. My estimated impact velocity was about 1200 fps. The last image I had before smoke filled the scene was that elk completely off the ground with hooves rotating skyward. I agree with the above that 850 terminal velocity will work just fine.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Corn Crunchers have been popped with a whole lot less and become the evening meal. The old 44WCF BP loads with a 220 grainer go clean through bean eaters hit in the chest.
Been using a 52# recurve bow for 20+ years and with a good slice through the breathers it is just a matter of time and following the trail.
Mike in Peru

[Wolfer]

In my new Vaquero I’ve run different 250/255 boolits at anywhere from 925 to 1075 fps. Some are hollow pointed.
Observations
Distances traveled after the shot are about the same no matter which boolit I use. The HPs leave a little better blood trail if they exit. If they don’t blood trail is generally pretty scimpy but not very long. I quite often see them go down. 75 yds is my farthest blood trail so far.

Perspective
Ive killed 2 deer with a 58 Rem cap and ball. Shooting the Lee 452-200 RF cast pure with a full cylinder of FFFg. Velocity was 700 fps. These deer acted no different than if I had been using my more powerful rounds.

Where you put the little hole is far more important than what you put it with.

[Tripplebeards]

Am I better off picking up a Lee 200 grain mold? Keep thinking I’d pick up velocity with keeping pressures low. Looking at the 200 grain RF. I see there’s a 160 grain RF offering but figured that might be too light?

[sharpsguy]

You will be better off with the 255WFN.

[dk17hmr]

You'd be better off with the heavier bullet. But a 200gr SWC through the ribs at about 1000fps would do the job also.

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
I would also agree with the 255 observation. You live where corn crunchers can be Big. Cold where the hide gets thick.
I have not heard about 255 grainers that did not exit with side to side chest hits. A 200 grain may get through the chest only to get stopped by the far side hide. Corn Cruncher hide is tough on an exiting slug. Take a blunt stick sometime and try to push it through. Even a dull knife point will remind you forgot to sharpen your knife.
Mike in Peru

[crankycalico]

IF you worried about impact velocity you could always get a 44 magnum. 250 grains at 1100fps WOULD give you a tad better chance at blowing through the deer LENGTHWISE....

keeping your shots short is all that you can really do to optimize chances of catching a deer. One wise handgun hunter once posited in a hunting guide article with this:

Handgun hunting is just like hunting with a bow, short range and quick shots taken.

[dk17hmr]

250 @ 1100fps is very doable in a strong 45lc...

[Tripplebeards]

IF you worried about impact velocity you could always get a 44 magnum. 250 grains at 1100fps WOULD give you a tad better chance at blowing through the deer LENGTHWISE....

keeping your shots short is all that you can really do to optimize chances of catching a deer. One wise handgun hunter once posited in a hunting guide article with this:

Handgun hunting is just like hunting with a bow, short range and quick shots taken.

I own 4, 44 mags but wanted to play around my my new model vaquero 45 colt. I believe 20,000 psi is the limit for this model but didn’t want to have to go over the level one, 13k loads everyone listed so I’m not beating up my cowboy pistol. Just figured it I take it out some time I’d like to know the ammo i end up loading is deer harvesting capable. I have some 250 grain RNFP factory loaded ammo with a velocity of 750 FPS. I would ammume this will also get the job done out to 75 yards? I know it’s a little on the slow side.

[crankycalico]

new model vaquero, always heard to load em like a genuine colt.

that factory ammo probably shouldn't get used past 50 yards..

original 45 colt loads in the original barrels has always been touted as putting out 950-1000 in the original barrels

[Jedman]

I agree with all things Wolfer wrote. If you want to know more what a Ruger in 45 Colt can do look up articles by John Linebaugh.

Jedman

[GLynn41]

While it is understood as to the why of the min. load-- just a little bit more might be better. Not trying to get you to over pressure a good 6 gun, over the years I have shot several broad side deer and then discovered they only looked that way. They were instead at an angle. This could change the needed power level and it has happened to me a number of times. aim for the best --load for the worst. Just a thought

[DougGuy]

Tripplebeards, 23,000psi is the limit on your new vaquero. That is the same as 45ACP+P which is what that gun is rated for. You can easily get a 255gr to 1200fps and stay under this ceiling. I did it in Schofield brass. Look at the Tier2 loads for 45 Colt.

The reason I like to load to 1200fps at the muzzle, is because it will hit hide just above the speed of sound. No "buffeting" as the boolit goes subsonic, there is more killing energy than at slower velocities, but one of the main reasons I choose this velocity is that animals react VERY FAST to sight and sound, MUCH faster than humans, so let's say you have a deer standing broadside at 50 yards, perfect shot, she/he does not know you are there. You drop the hammer on a round loaded to 850fps at the muzzle. The muzzle blast and smoke will be visible to the deer immediately, the sound reaches it's ears in slightly less than 1/8 of a second, the boolit strikes the animal some 2 1/2 tenths of a second later. In that time the deer can react and move considerable distance, causing a missed shot or a gutshot deer. I would prefer the boolit hit hide milliseconds before the sound reaches the ears.

Also if I have to shoot one of North Carolina's thousands of black bears off me, I'd rather depend on the 1200fps load as opposed to the 850fps load all day long.

[Tripplebeards]

Tripplebeards, 23,000psi is the limit on your new vaquero. That is the same as 45ACP+P which is what that gun is rated for. You can easily get a 255gr to 1200fps and stay under this ceiling. I did it in Schofield brass. Look at the Tier2 loads for 45 Colt.

The reason I like to load to 1200fps at the muzzle, is because it will hit hide just above the speed of sound. No "buffeting" as the boolit goes subsonic, there is more killing energy than at slower velocities, but one of the main reasons I choose this velocity is that animals react VERY FAST to sight and sound, MUCH faster than humans, so let's say you have a deer standing broadside at 50 yards, perfect shot, she/he does not know you are there. You drop the hammer on a round loaded to 850fps at the muzzle. The muzzle blast and smoke will be visible to the deer immediately, the sound reaches it's ears in slightly less than 1/8 of a second, the boolit strikes the animal some 2 1/2 tenths of a second later. In that time the deer can react and move considerable distance, causing a missed shot or a gutshot deer. I would prefer the boolit hit hide milliseconds before the sound reaches the ears.

Also if I have to shoot one of North Carolina's thousands of black bears off me, I'd rather depend on the 1200fps load as opposed to the 850fps load all day long.

Never thought of the sound factor! I have about a dozen load books and its either 13k loads or stout old vaquero/ black hawk loads. Where do I find tier 2 data?


I have h110 and lil gun to work with.

[megasupermagnum]

Tripplebeards, 23,000psi is the limit on your new vaquero. That is the same as 45ACP+P which is what that gun is rated for. You can easily get a 255gr to 1200fps and stay under this ceiling. I did it in Schofield brass. Look at the Tier2 loads for 45 Colt.

The reason I like to load to 1200fps at the muzzle, is because it will hit hide just above the speed of sound. No "buffeting" as the boolit goes subsonic, there is more killing energy than at slower velocities, but one of the main reasons I choose this velocity is that animals react VERY FAST to sight and sound, MUCH faster than humans, so let's say you have a deer standing broadside at 50 yards, perfect shot, she/he does not know you are there. You drop the hammer on a round loaded to 850fps at the muzzle. The muzzle blast and smoke will be visible to the deer immediately, the sound reaches it's ears in slightly less than 1/8 of a second, the boolit strikes the animal some 2 1/2 tenths of a second later. In that time the deer can react and move considerable distance, causing a missed shot or a gutshot deer. I would prefer the boolit hit hide milliseconds before the sound reaches the ears.

Also if I have to shoot one of North Carolina's thousands of black bears off me, I'd rather depend on the 1200fps load as opposed to the 850fps load all day long.

DougGuy, you are right about so many things, but you are moving into Hollywood land here. I calculated the flight time based on the following formula. (distance to target in feet X 2) / (muzzle velocity + velocity at target. Using the Federal ballistic calculator for 45 colt, I did the following (150 X 2) / (850 + 812) = 0.18 seconds. Doing the same for sound, assuming 1125 FPS, I get 0.13 seconds. The fastest recorded reaction time by a human is 0.101 seconds, and they didn't even start moving until that point. Look at bow hunters. With a measly 250 fps arrow, the best a deer can do is duck a few inches.


This is nothing against you, just hard facts in a world where we think too much. I am as guilty as anyone.

[DougGuy]

DougGuy, you are right about so many things, but you are moving into Hollywood land here. I calculated the flight time based on the following formula. (distance to target in feet X 2) / (muzzle velocity + velocity at target. Using the Federal ballistic calculator for 45 colt, I did the following (150 X 2) / (850 + 812) = 0.18 seconds. Doing the same for sound, assuming 1125 FPS, I get 0.13 seconds. The fastest recorded reaction time by a human is 0.101 seconds, and they didn't even start moving until that point. Look at bow hunters. With a measly 250 fps arrow, the best a deer can do is duck a few inches.


This is nothing against you, just hard facts in a world where we think too much. I am as guilty as anyone.

I had a fox outrun a 180gr plain base from a 308 at 400' he was stopped, and at the instant the shot broke, he looked right at me and saw the muzzle flash. At 2400fps, it took the boolit 1/6 of a second to cover 400', the boolit struck the dirt where he was standing, but the fox was long gone. I went and laid my head down where the boolit struck, eyed up where I was sitting with my back against a fence post, and the shot was true. That was one quick fox. Hollywood would have loved to film that one!

As far as the calculations, thanks for that, I didn't know how to realistically calculate it, I was just outlining out the possibility of the subsonic shot not hitting point of aim in the event the deer would happen to move quickly at the sound of gunfire.

[Tripplebeards]

Fox and coyote will run out of the shot on 3650 fps bullet...ask me how I know dozens of times. Have to lead on them a few body lengths or more when they're on the run at a few hundred yards distance away.

But I'd never take a shot like that on a deer. Just TRYING for vermin elimination. They very first coyote I shot at out west was on the dead run directly away from me at 279 yards. Right up the tail pip free hand...its been all misses on runners ever since. I wait for them to stop before pulling the trigger now.


But if a deer is in a slow walk or trot at close quarters I'll let one fly.

[GLynn41]

GOOGLE OR Bing +P loads for the COWBOY.. the Vaquero

[Tripplebeards]

I would assume that's for the OLD vaquero

[rdwarrior]

The fastest recorded reaction time by a human is 0.101 seconds, and they didn't even start moving until that point. Look at bow hunters. With a measly 250 fps arrow, the best a deer can do is duck a few inches.


Deer have a much faster reaction time than humans. If you have ever deer hunt with a bow, then you know at 30 yards, the deer can drop completely and jump up, causing the arrow to completely miss the them. They react that fast to just the sound of the string. They duck way more than a few inches. Watch some of the videos of deer "jumping the string" and you will see what I am talking about.

[megasupermagnum]

The time between the sound getting there and the bullet .05 seconds. That deer isn't ducking a bullet, end of story.

[Hickok]

45 Colt, 8.5-9 gr of Unique under a 250-270 gr SWC from a New Model Vaquero will shoot through a deer's shoulder as far away as you can hit them. I have done it with my NM Vaquero.

[5Shot]

Here's the Brian Pearce article that has the various levels of 45 Colt, using the RCBS 270...should be a good start.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[RP]

Not sure about you old timers but I can cut the front porch light and be in bed before it gets dark. I have also ran to the target to see where the bullet hit and have to wait on it to get there.[smilie=l:

[cwlongshot]

I have shot end to end on two 120-130# deer with a 300G Speer FPJ bullet. This bullet is soft with a plated "jacket" Both times the bullet entered chest facing and exited hind quarters. Impact velocity was 1000-1100fps.

I don't remember shooting any with a 255G, but I have shot probably 4-5 with a 310 WFN cast at 1100-1150 Muzzle vel in a 7.5" Bisley and not one of them complained. :bigsmyl2:At least a dozen more from my Marlin 20" with same load. That load was almost 1300 from a 10" Contender. That's only one I remember for sure chrono testing and don't remember shooting any deer with the 45C Contender.

IMHO, shoot for 1200< you do NOT need big velocity, the 45cal bullet esp a WFN is a very efficient killer. Interesting theology with deer dodging the bullet... I hadn't given it much thought. I tend not to shoot many nervous deer...:veryconfu Generally they are dead (if I'm gonna shoot them) seconds after I see them. :)

CW

[reloader28]

13gr HS-6 is an excellent load if you have it. It'll run about 1050fps in a 5 1/2" barrel at about 18,000 pressure.

[Ramjet-SS]

You will be better off with the 255WFN.

This is the best advice you can get. Meplat as wide as you can get. A cast them #2 Lyman alloy and you will have great pass through and very good disruption of the soft tissue.

LBT WFN

[Tripplebeards]

So a 44 mag and 45 colt are both straight walled pistol rounds with similar lengths. My question is why can't I find any lil gun or h110 loads receipies for the 45 colt? If I have to buy powder so be it but one or both of these powders I would think would work in the 45 colt?

[cwlongshot]

http://img.p[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/DFDBD456-612B-4629-91B1-681E3D89598D_zpssltg6sur.jpeg

http://img.potobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/5F2C923F-D5C6-482F-BE7D-958B462B6D39_zpslrqmzthw.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/FF25F76E-13F0-46A9-A5D8-3EE84FCEB4F9_zps24recfhl.jpeg

CW

[Tripplebeards]

The only powder I have that I can find loads for,which is trail boss, loaded to the max recommendation of 6 grains loaded long obviously won't give me enough velocity to get the job done.

http://i.imgur.com/oiLYAR0.jpg

[BAGTIC]

The elk must have been an accomplished high jumper as the bullet could not have lifted it off the ground.

[Bigslug]

Check the first two posts of this thread from my .45 ACP adventures from four years back, specifically the second post where it gets into penetration testing: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255216-Feeding-Big-Meplats-in-1911-s-Continued-The-LBT-LFN

Deer aren't Tiger tanks, and your bullet mass at about 1000 fps was considered sufficient to chill out a horse back in the day. Since you've got a fixed sight gun, how fast do you need to push it to hit to the sights and about 50 yards?

[M-Tecs]

Only shot two deer with that type of load. Both were medium size whitetail bucks. Load was 8 grains of Unique with a 250 grain Lyman 454190 soft cast out of Cattleman 1873 Colt copy. Both broadside shoulder shots. They got the job done. Range was about 30 yards and 50 yards. Had some issues with the Cattleman and it was traded for a Ruger Blackhawk. After that I used top end Ruger only loads. Only shot a little 3 x 3 buck and a full size doe with them but I could not tell the difference.

With archery I haven't had any deer jump the string since I got above 240 FPS. My current bow is about 340 and I have shot a couple of bucks at around 35 yards that were looking directly at me. No string jump.

[5Shot]

So a 44 mag and 45 colt are both straight walled pistol rounds with similar lengths. My question is why can't I find any lil gun or h110 loads receipies for the 45 colt? If I have to buy powder so be it but one or both of these powders I would think would work in the 45 colt?

They are only used for high pressure recipes.

[M-Tecs]

The elk must have been an accomplished high jumper as the bullet could not have lifted it off the ground.

Very true. Disruption to the nervous system is what most people are seeing. Energy is energy. Recoil is generated by the bullet and mass for the powder accelerating. The reverse is also. If a bullet enters the barrel from the muzzle and it decelerates at the same rate it accelerated you would be unable to tell the recoil from the impact. Small targets like prairie dogs do get "thrown" but that is from hydrostatic expansion.

[M-Tecs]

So a 44 mag and 45 colt are both straight walled pistol rounds with similar lengths. My question is why can't I find any lil gun or h110 loads receipies for the 45 colt? If I have to buy powder so be it but one or both of these powders I would think would work in the 45 colt?

These are above the new model Vaquero pressure limits. The original Vaquero are Blackhawk frames. The new Vaquero's are smaller frames and cylinders.

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

Hodgdon list both powder but they are above new model Vaquero pressure limits.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[dk17hmr]

IMR has data on their site for H110 in 45lc but it's high pressure/strong action loads

[white eagle]

So a 44 mag and 45 colt are both straight walled pistol rounds with similar lengths. My question is why can't I find any lil gun or h110 loads receipies for the 45 colt? If I have to buy powder so be it but one or both of these powders I would think would work in the 45 colt?

Check John Linebaugh's website he has plenty of 110 recipes
however you won't find any weak loads

[Tripplebeards]

It says 5.8/5.9 grains of trail boss has a Muzzel velocity around 855 fps. I loaded mine longer and with 6 grains. I'll have to chrony them to see where I'm at. I would assume 850 fps would work OK out to 75 yards if it patterns? I've seen people deer hunt with air rifles with the same or less velocities on YouTube so I'm sure it would work.

[DougGuy]

So a 44 mag and 45 colt are both straight walled pistol rounds with similar lengths. My question is why can't I find any lil gun or h110 loads receipies for the 45 colt? If I have to buy powder so be it but one or both of these powders I would think would work in the 45 colt?

H110 works very well in 45 Colt, especially with heavy for caliber boolits. It likes a greater than 73% case density, and is for max loads in large frame Ruger revolvers and others of the same high strength. It is NOT recommended to download H110 below published starting weights.

LilGun and 2400 are excellent powders to get into the 75% ~ 90% power band with performance just below those 30kpsi loads listed in the (large framed) Ruger Only loads. I think AA#9 will also work for this purpose.

There IS however, a workaround of sorts for using less H110, and this involves using the 45 Schofield case, and a lighter boolit, case density is very high, and pressures remain within the 23kpsi rating of the medium framed Ruger revolver. You can throttle down H110, but you have to bring everything else in the load down as well, case capacity, boolit weight, to have a safe load.

[white eagle]

can also use cowboy special cases

[fastdadio]

A lot of good info being hashed out in here. How about we reverse think this for a bit. Since we're working with fixed sights, how about developing a load that hits to point of aim at, say, 50-75 yds. and let the rest fall into place and be as it may. Would that work?

And a quick comment on a side tangent in this thread.....I swear a caggy, neverous old doe who had made me on stand, ducked a shot from my muzzle loader at about 50 yards. It was a good resting shot. When the smoke cleared, she was gone. No blood, no hair. Just a hole in the ground where she was standing. Go figure.

[M-Tecs]

And a quick comment on a side tangent in this thread.....I swear a caggy, neverous old doe who had made me on stand, ducked a shot from my muzzle loader at about 50 yards. It was a good resting shot. When the smoke cleared, she was gone. No blood, no hair. Just a hole in the ground where she was standing. Go figure.

When I was younger I hunted a lot of coyotes. I can't remember how many times they bolted just as I was applying pressure to the trigger. That happened from very close to over 400 yards. Had the same happen a couple of times with deer. Unless it was a flintlock with a improper flash hole I have a very hard time accepting that a deer jumped the shot at 50 yards from a muzzle loader.

[fastdadio]

Unless it was a flintlock with a improper flash hole I have a very hard time accepting that a deer jumped the shot at 50 yards from a muzzle loader.
Yup, I agree. I had a good steady rest. No 'buck fever' syndrome. I even took the rifle to the range after and checked it out. Spot on at 100 yds. after multiple shots. She was a smart ole gal. Had me locked in, huffin and stompin, and she wasn't letting go. I never moved a muscle. I tried to wait her out hoping she'd get bored or lose interest in me, but nope. The only explanation is that she decided to bolt at the exact time I let it fly.

[Petander]

Yep,where I live almost every hunter has a suppressed 22 LR rifle. They have been common for many decades.

It's well known that many birds turn/move/escape the slow subsonic bullet @ 50 yards or longer. Very easy to see with a scope.

Kinda makes us humans feel slow.

[plinky56]

Just saw ur thread, so I may be a little late... I carry a Blackhawk, 4 5/8" brl with target/pest loads with me in antlerless season and have popped a doe with it the last 3 years. I use 6.5gr of promo(red dot) and cast a Keith 250gr SWC. I'll only take the shot up to 75 yds, cause the red dot(sight) is pretty big out that far, but they only ever go about 50 yards, or up to 15 seconds - whichever occurs first. 2 where lower lung shots and ran leaving a big blood trail, 1 was in the brachial plexus and DRT. Load the same boolit for a friends daughter in early season ML, in a sabot and push it with 60gr of BP and she has the same results - 50yds and blow throughs. You'll get good results with good shot placement from 900 - 1000fps if you do your part. It's a confidence inspiring combination! Good luck.

[1bluehorse]

It says 5.8/5.9 grains of trail boss has a Muzzel velocity around 855 fps. I loaded mine longer and with 6 grains. I'll have to chrony them to see where I'm at. I would assume 850 fps would work OK out to 75 yards if it patterns? I've seen people deer hunt with air rifles with the same or less velocities on YouTube so I'm sure it would work.


I ran 6 rounds of 45 colt 260gr cast bullet over 6gr. Trail Boss powder over my chrony a few years back. Avg was 766fps but I don't recall if that was a Vaquero 4 5/8inch barrel or my 4.2inch Redhawk. I figured 6.5gr would get me right at 800fps about the same as 8gr. Unique load. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer out to 50ys with either load. Soft shooting and pretty darn accurate.

[popper]

Had a pig duck a 150 gr @ 1900, maybe a 50 yd shot.

[Jedman]

Trying to picture a pig duck ? Must be one of those animals that a tablet come up with. �� +��

Jedman