7.65×53mm Argentine Mauser

[dh2]

I have found a 1909 mauser in a local pawn shop it looks to have been sporterized it looks to be in good condition, but is very cheap for a reason , it has no bolt . I do know that changing the bolt the head space will have to be checked which is not an issue . Go and no go gauges can be found and getting a gun smith involved is also not an issue.

My Question is do I need to find a bolt from a 1909 Mauser or can I use a 98 Mauser bolt out of Sarco or the like??

I am wanting to know what I am in to before I buy this one

[lefty o]

any standard length 98 mauser bolt will fit. whether or not it will headspace is another question.

[Adam20]

My German k98 bolt fits in my 7.65 argintine 1909 and dry fires. I have checked measurement between them I have found no difference.

[cwlongshot]

Great rifles!

Great base for customizations.

Good luck with it!

I just picked up a 1889 Mauser in 7.65x53. (Not nearly as strong as your (98 based action.) Its a early version of the more popular, 1891 Mauser.

CW

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here's how I see it, based on my experience, but others with different experiences may see it differently:

First, Mauser bolts within a certain model have about an 85%-90% chance of head spacing with no issues. Not all, but the big majority. Probably a 1909 bolt will work for you with no problem. It might be more difficult to locate a bolt specifically for a 1909 than, say, a K98, but I'm sure you could turn one up as there are many sources for gun parts.

As for a bolt for a '98 Mauser manufactured in another country working in your rifle, I'd give it a maybe 45% chance. If it will fit properly and does head space, then you'll be o.k., and if it will fit but doesn't head space properly then it most likely can be made to work with some barrel work. But, of course, the overall project becomes more expensive if that is necessary.

I would seek a 1909 bolt.

[Texas by God]

Great rifles!

Great base for customizations.

Good luck with it!

I just picked up a 1889 Mauser in 7.65x53. (Not nearly as strong as your (98 based action.) Its a early version of the more popular, 1891 Mauser.

CWWho manufactured your 1889? Hopkins and Allen made some of them in the United States.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Ed in North Texas]

Here's how I see it, based on my experience, but others with different experiences may see it differently:

First, Mauser bolts within a certain model have about an 85%-90% chance of head spacing with no issues. Not all, but the big majority. Probably a 1909 bolt will work for you with no problem. It might be more difficult to locate a bolt specifically for a 1909 than, say, a K98, but I'm sure you could turn one up as there are many sources for gun parts.

As for a bolt for a '98 Mauser manufactured in another country working in your rifle, I'd give it a maybe 45% chance. If it will fit properly and does head space, then you'll be o.k., and if it will fit but doesn't head space properly then it most likely can be made to work with some barrel work. But, of course, the overall project becomes more expensive if that is necessary.

I would seek a 1909 bolt.

I agree (here comes the but) but if it will be the only 7.65x53mm he will have and the headspace is very close, he could fire form brass specifically for this rifle. I'd go with -06 GI brass cut and formed for it because of the heavier brass and, once converted, nobody would ever confuse it with real -06 cases (7.62x61mm). Start forming with a file and trim die and keep trying the fit until the bolt closes on the case. Don't forget to anneal. I'm not keen on this, but it can work. I have a Model 1910 RB in 7mm. Known for long headspace vs the 7mm Mauser bolt guns, I make the cases from .270 Win brass because I don't have a .270 and have no desire to own one at this late stage of my life.

YMMV.

[Larry Gibson]

FYI; The bolts from my M1909 DWM interchanges with the bolt from my F.M.A.P. M1909. The bolts from my VZ24 and Yugo VZ 24/47 also interchange in the M1909 DWM. The bolts from my two other standard length M98s also interchange in the DWM M1909.

As to headspace, it is not nearly as critical in a CRF action as in a push feed as the extractor holds the case back regardless of the actual headspace. Thus fired cases will only fire form. If forming cases from '06 type cases or from 8x57 cases then the cartridge headspace can be adjusted to the chambers headspace whether "in spec" or not. It's basically a non issue unless the headspace turns out too short not allowing milsurp or factory to chamber. If the OP uses neither and forms his own cases then that also is a non issue.

[TNsailorman]

Larry you are dead on right. A claw extractor will hold the cartridge for the first firing of a case(fire forming it to chamber) and from then on, neck size and you are in business. If worried about that method, another one is to load a standard case with a lead bullet(preferable) and seat it to just kiss the rifling to make sure it is held in place and use a reduced load to fireform the case. Both work and the second one will work for push feed also. At least that is my experience.
james

[cwlongshot]

Who manufactured your 1889? Hopkins and Allen made some of them in the United States.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Hopkins and Allen right here in Connecticut!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/BD0BEB96-0042-4071-8B6F-F5E433743D79_zpsxgkcbtgk.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/902363F8-BD18-476E-947C-A36FEE14FF69_zpsqvl03lkb.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/C62135A1-8489-46D3-AFE9-A18CBB7C6FB0_zps9h3ni71d.jpeg

[dh2]

I am looking at ammo is made by PPU that would give me brass to start with, I am hopping the heads space is right with a new bolt, redoing the chamber would be a pain because it would up the price that would be invested.

[beemer]

I was given a sporterized 1909 with no bolt, it had been restocked and D&Ted. I replaced the bolt with a 98, it worked fine and fed properly. The headspace didn't matter at the barrel was a bad sewer pipe and it got rebarreled anyway. I used a Norwegian 98 target barrel in 7.62X51 and was surprised that it headspaced properly, just luck on that one.

[Hick]

If you are worried about confusing headstamps, you can also make 7.65 x 53 brass from 270 cases instead of 30-06-- I do this because I don't have anything in 270. The case length of a 7.65 x 53 case comes out in the shoulder of both 30-06 and 270 cases-- so either one works for 7.65 x 53.

[Multigunner]

Could 7.62X51 NATO cases be sized to work in a 7.65X53 Chamber? I know that the Kortnek 7mm being 4mm too short was a problem for the Boers due to not filling out the chamber neck but if cast Boolits and mild loads are used it shouldn't be a problem.

[samari46]

Used some late 50's Israeli 8mm brass to make 7.65x53 mm brass. Started out with a form and trim die not screwed down against the shell holder. So with one case would form it and trim with a hacksaw then lightly file till flush with the die. Chamfer the case mouth. Test fit to the chamber if too tight screwed down the form and trim die a little and try again. When I got to the point where the case would chamber with a little pressure called it good. Loaded up with about 10 grains unique and a 32-20 jacketed bullet to fire form the case. I once tried the same 32-20 bullet with a full powder charge at the range. Bullets were coming apart before they got to the target@100yds. I had explained to the RO what I was doing so got stuck way at the end of the firing line. Some hit the dirt as they came apart. Safe to say they are not designed for high velocities. That was back when Norma was the only game in town for factory brass expensive back then as well as now. Still have about 150 of the Israeli 8mm cases. Now that PPU makes good 8mm brass the brass and dies just gather dust. Frank

[cwlongshot]

I make my 7.65 brass from mil 30/06 or any non marked boxer 57mm case. The 30-06 is most plentiful.

I prefer no caliber designation as someone else could need to use and I don't want confusion of a wrongly marked caliber.

I anneal first, always. Lately I have been trimming (close) first. But I have made many with a 1" neck too to be trimmed later.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/B89E94A7-50B4-4DC2-9DD2-FFC74C81236A_zpswjvrnkmw.jpeg

The ones I'll use in my 1889 will be only lead and only light for the respect this ol timer deserves. Your 1909 should handle any published load easily.

I have been lucky to have a few NON reloaders that shoot 7.65 near me as I find it in a few stores on the used rack.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/8D64B205-90F2-428B-9199-C3E4C15C3636_zps4tj2blwk.jpeg

CW

[Larry Gibson]

Could 7.62X51 NATO cases be sized to work in a 7.65X53 Chamber? I know that the Kortnek 7mm being 4mm too short was a problem for the Boers due to not filling out the chamber neck but if cast Boolits and mild loads are used it shouldn't be a problem.

Not really. When FL sized in a 7.65 die the 7.62x51 cases shoulder is about .150 back. Even if fire formed the neck would still be only about half the length of the already short 7.65 neck. If you don't want to form the cases from '06 length based cases then using commercial boxer primed 8x57 cases works quite well. they can simply be run into a 7.65 FL die and then minimally trimmed to length. No cutting off of excess brass, neck turn/reaming or annealing is necessary.

Commercial Norma brass is sometimes available but it is more expensive than Winchester or R-P brass. I've also converted some Argentine Berdan primed cases to take boxer SR primers. Those cases are holding up well.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Guess I was lucky by falling into a deal that had 5 factory loaded ammo boxes of 7.65 and a bag of 100 unfired norma brass. No problem with the headstamp being different.Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, you were lucky.....

[bob208]

one other thing make shore it is 7.63. some were imported and sporterized and also reamed to .30-06. they will shoot hat size groups at best. my father had one if I reloaded with .311 bullets it was a real shooter

[Hardcast416taylor]

one other thing make shore it is 7.63. some were imported and sporterized and also reamed to .30-06. they will shoot hat size groups at best. my father had one if I reloaded with .311 bullets it was a real shooter


A friend bought an `09 that was chambered in `06. He had a gunshop do a full sporter job on it. I worked up a load using the Nosler 180 gr. BT and a max load of IMR 4350. That was and still is 20 years later a 3 shot in same hole shooter at 100 yds.Robert

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The story on the .311 .30-06 South American Mausers is that during WW II several of those countries sided with the Allies. They were promised all the .30-06 ammo they could use for continental defense, so some of them rechambered their rifles to .30-06 but did not rebarrel them to a .308 bore. I've got two Peruvian Mausers that were so treated, a long WW I- style Gew '98 made in Germany and a shorter model made by FN. Both had worn finishes, but great bores, and shoot quite well with .311-06 loads. Both have that very nice Peruvian crest on the receiver rings.

[Multigunner]

I've heard most like that had .314 bores, though I'm sure there was a lot of variation.
The .312 Hornady 150 gr works very nicely in .303 British and 7.62X54R rifles with bores of .314 or larger. It should work fine in a rechambered 7.65 rifle. They make a 175 gr bullet as well. Originally intended for reloading for 7.7 Jap rifles or Jap 7.7 rifles rechambered in .30-06.

[GUSTAVOAR]

Hello:
The Mauser nominal barrel spec is .311 for the model 1891 and .312 for the 1909, both models have same chamber specs with a long free bore to accept the original 7,65 x 53 ammo. The 1891 bullet was 211 gr RN (.311) and the 1909 was 182 Gr Spt (.312). In 1904 there was a pointed bullet for the 1891 rifle (182 Gr .312).
As for the bolt question, any 1909 bolt will be Ok. You must check the head space but I am sure that 90% will be in specs, and if you form brass you can correct any small diference.

SALUDOS
From Argentina

[leadman]

I recently bought a bag of new 100 PPU cases from Graf & Sons. Don't remember the exact price but thought they were a bargain.
I had a friend give me a partial box of PPU loaded ammo as he sold his gun. I found this ammo was on the hot side when I shot it here in the Arizona summer.
I made brass from 30-06, etc. for quite a few years with a full length sizing die. Had to size some, remove, trim, size some more. The trim die works much easier. The reformed cases have thicker brass in the new neck which actually helps fill the generous chamber neck.

[Battis]

I went into a local shop yesterday and they had a metal ammo box filled with boxes of Argentine Mauser factory ammo. No dates or any marks that I could make out. Not even sure if it was Berdan primed. I walked away, not knowing for sure what the ammo was. The shop assured me that it was 7.65X53, probably based on the seller they bought it from. I'm sure my Mauser could handle it if it's the correct ammo, but what markings other than what's on the can would you look for?

[bob208]

back in the 90's I bought 2,000 rounds of surplus real cheap. I never fired any of it. but I think it is berdan primed. it just has a date on the head.

[Tackleberry41]

I lucked into a really nice 1891 rifle, sat in someones closet for a long time, had a scope mounted, nice sporter job on the stock, aftermarket rear sight fitted, everything matching. Guess whoever owned it thought it was junk as it had zero accuracy. Tho shooting 7mm mauser out of a 311 barrel might have been the problem. Gunshop had it labeled as 7mm.

The PPU ammo they ordered was junk, loaded with 308 bullets. With proper 311 174gr match it drills them. I converted some cases I had, but way easier to just buy brass.