3 1/2" Lead Loads

[richhodg66]

Gonna try this, I want a lead shot load for coyotes. Seems you can either get buck shot for deer, steel shot for waterfowl or #4 or 6 for Turkeys, but nobody makes a heavy load of something like BB size lead shot anymore.

I bought some #4 turkey loads and shot a few to get the hulls (Winchester). My Lyman book has data for this hull using 2 ounces of shot, 40 grains of Blue Dot and a WAA12SL wad. I'm pretty sure I can slightly modify operations on my Load All to make it work fir 3 1/2" shells, and I have everything for that recipe, but for the life of me, looking at those wads, I cannot see it holding 2 ounces of shot. The shot cup simply does not look like it has anywhere near that much volume.

Will that wad hold that much shot and it'll become apparent when I put it all together?

[Ginsing]

The call for that wad is likely to get the correct cushion leg length for a good crimp. There will likely be half of the payload above the wad petals. Though I could be wrong

[megasupermagnum]

The shot cup doesn't hold it, but those loads do work. 2/3 rds of the shot column rides outside the cup. 3 1/2" hulls are ok for steel shot, but just not needed for lead shot. You can get 2 ounces in a 3" hull with no fuss. I've loaded 3 1/2" hulls on a Lee load all, but I don't think it can de-prime or resize hulls. The most devastating load I've ever found for what you want is a 3" federal plastic base, Fed 209A primer, 32 grains Bluedot, Turkey ranger wad (now ranger elite) + 1/8" 20ga felt wad, 1 3/4 oz shot, PSB buffer, fold crimp. I use F shot which stacks perfectly in this shot cup, but it would work equally well with BB. This load runs 1050 fps from my gun. You will be running 1250 fps or so with the 3 1/2" loads, which often is not a good thing.

[richhodg66]

The Lyman book shows a velocity of 1162 and pressure of 9,500 psi, which is low as loads go. Gun will be a Mossberg 835.

I'll be basically handloading these one at a time. There's a video on youtube where the guy shows how to extend the depriming pin, which I wouldn't do, just use a punch. The little sizing rings the Load Alls use could be used with some kind of a spacer. I'll probably have to reposition the wad guide. Don't plan to use the shot and powder bushings, I'll just weigh those. Getting the crimp to work right will be the biggest challenge, I think.

Would a modified or full choke likely work best with a load like this? I have both.

[gpidaho]

Rich: Just use your 12ga, Lee sizing ring and a short length of pipe on an arbor press to do the sizing and the punch to depriming. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

Full choke will provide a tighter pattern. I have not tried anything tighter than full, but modified works well too.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not sure why one would want to throw 2 ounces of lead shot and then step down to a smaller size pellet?

When using sheet shot you can compensate for the lower mass of steel compared to lead by using larger pellets and then using a longer shell to compensate for the increased bulk of those larger pellets. But when using lead shot, throwing more pellets doesn't do much other than give you a denser pattern but by the time the pattern opens up enough for the density of the pattern to be important - the individual pellets will have lost a lot of energy.

It does you no good to send more pellets downrange if those pellets lack the energy needed to penetrate and kill the animal when they reach it. Peppering the target with more shot doesn't increase the effectiveness of that shot if the individual pellets lack the energy needed to penetrate when they arrive at that target.

And, adding more pellets doesn't make the pattern larger at a given range, it just makes that pattern denser.

So in a nutshell, I think it would be better to accept fewer pellets strike the target but know that the pellets that did strike the target had enough energy to adequately penetrate the target and kill it.

[richhodg66]

I read up on this quite a bit, seems BB lead is the best all around compromise for coyotes. The buck shot loads I've shot I wasn't convinced would do the job, too many holes in a pattern. Also read on a couple of varmint forums that steel won't cut it.

I haven't killed a lot of them, but enough to know they are tough. The one and only I killed with a shotgun was with BB lead and it layed a big, running coyote out graveyard dead instantly at 35 yards. Reading up on it has convinced me BB or #4 buck or similar is the way to go. Shooting something like 00 buck if your pattern only hits one or two in the animal, you've just shot a coyote with a .32 ACP, I think I want more than that.

Less shot might be an option, was just looking over some heavy 2 3/4" loads in that Lyman book. Using the 2 3/4" would allow the use of an auto loader which might be an advantage.

[bikerbeans]

Hogtamer has a thread in this subforum about his "perfect" buckshot load. A highly effective load for deer and hogs so i think would work well on a song dog. IIRC, his load uses 0.311" round balls, approx. #1 buckshot.

BB

[megasupermagnum]

I read up on this quite a bit, seems BB lead is the best all around compromise for coyotes. The buck shot loads I've shot I wasn't convinced would do the job, too many holes in a pattern. Also read on a couple of varmint forums that steel won't cut it.

I haven't killed a lot of them, but enough to know they are tough. The one and only I killed with a shotgun was with BB lead and it layed a big, running coyote out graveyard dead instantly at 35 yards. Reading up on it has convinced me BB or #4 buck or similar is the way to go. Shooting something like 00 buck if your pattern only hits one or two in the animal, you've just shot a coyote with a .32 ACP, I think I want more than that.

Less shot might be an option, was just looking over some heavy 2 3/4" loads in that Lyman book. Using the 2 3/4" would allow the use of an auto loader which might be an advantage.

I think you are on the right track. I don't think it will be long before steel shot is a thing of the past, it was never a good thing in a shotgun. Talking lead here, from patterning, I'm confident with my F shot (48 pellets) reloads to 65 yards. According to KYP shotshell ballistics program, it estimates that gives 3.84" gel penetration at that range. The same thing, 1050 fps, but with BB (89 pellets), provides 3.84" at 28 yards. A 2 3/4" 1 3/8 oz load is about 70 pellets of BB, and at the higher velocity would be a great choice. I never could get good patterns with T shot or #4 buck. I have not shot a coyote past 30 yards with my reloads yet, but F shot passed completely through a fox at 45 yards.

[trapper9260]

At first it was about usen a 10ga not 12ga. Now I see it is 12ga. If you going to save the fur you do not want the pelt mess up. like stated a 3" would be better for lead.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not remotely suggesting the OP even consider steel shot, I only mentioned steel shot because steel is the reason behind 3 1/2" shells. The lower density of steel shot requires larger pellets and those larger pellets require more room to keep the pellet count high, hence the invention of the longer 3 1/2' shell for steel shot.

With lead shot (which is what I'm recommending) a 2 3/4" shell provides plenty of space for the payload. The question becomes how many pellets do you need to put on target and how much energy does each individual pellet need when it reaches that target?

It's a compromise - with equal payload weights and at the same range; smaller pellets equal more pellets but with less energy per pellet and larger pellets equal more energy per pellet but fewer pellets.

There is no free lunch.

00 buck in 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells generally equals around 9 pellets, which admittedly will produce a fairly sparse pattern at 35 yards (the range given by the OP).
Going to a smaller pellet will give you a denser pattern at the same range although not necessarily a larger pattern BUT the individual pellets will have far less energy when they get there.

With the same 1 oz. payload the BB size will give you about 50 pellets/ounce but those .180" pellets will have shed a lot of energy by the time they get 35 yards out.

If the range is 35 yards and we use the rough guide that a full choke pattern opens up about 1" per yard after the first couple of yards, we're talking about a roughly 35" pattern at 35 yards. (that rule is not set in stone but it gives us a little something to work with)

A coyote is big enough that even with only 30 pellets inside that 35" pattern, there will not be "holes" in the pattern large enough that the coyote will escape unscathed. You're going to get multiple hits. The issue becomes = how much energy will each of those individual pellets retain at 35 yards?

I would rather hit the coyote with 10 pellets that penetrate deeply than to hit it with 20 pellets that barely get past the fur and outer muscle wall.

In other words - I would sacrifice pellet COUNT to improve pellet ENERGY.

[richhodg66]

I think you are on the right track. I don't think it will be long before steel shot is a thing of the past, it was never a good thing in a shotgun. Talking lead here, from patterning, I'm confident with my F shot (48 pellets) reloads to 65 yards. According to KYP shotshell ballistics program, it estimates that gives 3.84" gel penetration at that range. The same thing, 1050 fps, but with BB (89 pellets), provides 3.84" at 28 yards. A 2 3/4" 1 3/8 oz load is about 70 pellets of BB, and at the higher velocity would be a great choice. I never could get good patterns with T shot or #4 buck. I have not shot a coyote past 30 yards with my reloads yet, but F shot passed completely through a fox at 45 yards.

What's your source for F shot?

[megasupermagnum]

Ballistic products. I use their super buck. They also sell nickel plated which may or may not be worth the price.