New 35 caliber

[quilbilly]

Looks like I will be waiting in vain for a lever gun in 357 Max. Winchester is coming out with a new caliber, a rimless 357 max. Apparently it is just a cut off version of a 223 so it will fit on the AR platform. Hope springs eternal though.

[Ramjet-SS]

Saw this rather interesting evidently they feel the Bushmaster has made some ground and this caliber will compete? It definitely looks like a dandy cartridge ballistically and with the proper weapon to deliver it should be fun.

[bikerbeans]

350 legend and the rifles from winchester are bolt guns. They look like ruger american ranch rifles, complete with box mag and threaded muzzle. MSRP $550 to $800 with availability later this year.

BB

[P Flados]

It will fit the AR-15 based guns.

In these guns, the performance will be essentially the same as the 357AR for most rifle bullets. For shorter bullets (such as typical pistol bullets), the extra 0.11" case length gives the new 350 Legend a max effective OAL that will be a little longer. Not sure why anyone would have a good reason to push pistol bullets to say 2300 - 2400 fps, but I am sure some will.

Using straight wall ammo is not what the AR-15 was designed for. Most magazines either will not work, or require modifications. Folks working with the 357AR have found also that feeding is OK with some bullets, but other bullets will not feed from the magazine.

For more info on the 357AR check out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?312313-357AR-(Max-Rimless)-AR15

[northmn]

It is primarily aimed at giving people in States that require straight cases for deer hunting a cartridge that has some ballistic advantage over the pistol cartridges. It also does not give the recoil of the bigger cartridges like the 444 and 45-70. Its a good cartridge in its place, for that use, but I would not get excited about it in my rifle zone where I already have a 35R Marlin lever action. If I were to modify a lever to 35 cal the 35-30 would be a better choice. It looks good for its purpose. Standard re-bore for JES

Pictures show it with pointed bullets which I think Winchester may have developed for it. About the only lever rifle ready to adapt to it is the Henry Long Ranger. Its design is probably aimed at use in 223 rifles for deer hunting. If popular in those states its designed for, one might see the cartridge also in rifles like the Savage line. It would make sense in the Axis for instance. Its bullets weights are supposed to range from 150 to 265. Most stress is on the lighter ones like the 180.

The 357 Max might be a good one for tubular levers. Maybe if this takes off a bit Remington might re-introduce it kind of like they did with the 244 to 6mm and call it the 357 Marlin or something along that line. The straight case deer hunting cartridges are a whole new Market.

DEP

[cwlongshot]

Im kinda excited about it. Moleman had me excited when he started the 357AR threads... But feeding problems kinda turned me. But I'm a 35 Fan to the core and used the Maximum for many years and dozens of deer many, many bang flops with a 180 SSP bullet. (I have a bunch stashed.)

I just ordered a couple boxes of ammo to see.

CW

[Ramjet-SS]

Pistol bullets at that speed is not good however Winchester is making ammo with a plastic tipped bullet specifically designed for the caliber. Plus I bet this could be a dandy cast boolit gun with 180 WFN GC boolits.

[dragon813gt]

What’s new is not new and what’s old is new when it comes to cartridge design. Rinse and repeat over and over.

[Texas by God]

If it is .355" instead of .358"- what a mistake...

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[northmn]

If it is .355" instead of .358"- what a mistake...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I looked it up again and they stated a "357" bullet which is likely 358. Its really not all that adaptable to existing lever actions. Wonder when they will make a long m-1 carbine case to make a 30 cal straight wall case. Most of the allowable "straight walls have a taper anyway as they were made to seal the bore when fired to prevent blowback. 45-70 is not a straight case.

DEP

[smkummer]

Being able to work on a AR platform will be a plus for sales, maybe it’s biggest plus. They are already marketing a subsonic load for suppressors. I don’t think anyone will want to try the revolver platform with it but AR handguns, TC and other single shots will work.

I am guessing it headspaces on the case mouth. Neck tension with long bullets should prevent bullets walking from recoil.

[dverna]

Info I found:


Approximately 20 percent less recoil than .243 Win.
20 percent more more penetration than .243 Win.
Less recoil than 450 Bushmaster
Uses a modified, straight-walled .223 Rem. shell case and a .357-inch bullet
The 350 Legend round is initially offered in six variations:
Deer Season XP - 150-grain Extreme Point
Super X - 180-grain Power-Point
Hog Special - 180-grain Power-Point
USA White Box - 145-grain FMJ Flat Nose
Power Max Bonded - 160-grain Bonded JHP
Super Suppressed - 265-grain Open Tip

Sounds interesting. If it will feed from the AR, it will be successful.

I like the ability to make cases out of .223 brass. The .35AR was interesting but it is always better to have a gun in a factory supported cartridge.

I have a spare AR lower that I would consider using if the uppers are not stupid expensive. But will wait to see if others have feeding issues. Ideally using the same magazines would be perfect but even if specific magazines are needed, it would be OK.

[bikerbeans]

Everything i have read says the bullets are 0.357" diameter. Brass length is 1.71". I haven't found anything saying the bullets or brass will be available as components. Dies and chamber reamers are anybodys guess.

BB

[dragon813gt]

The .35AR was interesting but it is always better to have a gun in a factory supported cartridge.

I’m sure most of us have guns in the safes that take ammo that was factory supported at one time. W/ any new cartridge you should plan in case it goes away like the majority of them do. I converted a 336 to 356 Winchester well after the cartridge was dead. So factory support means little to me.

What’s confusing to me is the fact that the 357 AR has been around for many years yet people are acting like the 350 Legend is brand new and nothing is like it. I realize they are two different cartridges w/ different dimensions. But the similarities are very close and many people have been using the 357 AR w/ great success for years. Can’t wait for one of the big manufacturers to come out w/ their version of the 358 Yeti and claim it as their own [emoji23]


Everything i have read says the bullets are 0.357" diameter. Brass length is 1.71". I haven't found anything saying the bullets or brass will be available as components. Dies and chamber reamers are anybodys guess.

BB

Agree on case length but the reports I’ve read have said .355 diameter bullets. Components will happen over time and w/ popularity. You can make the case from 223 brass so that’s not an issue. And chamber reamers are already listed by one company. Dies will happen over time as well. Give it time and everything will be available.

[bikerbeans]

If the bullet is a 9mm and not a 0.357"or 0.358" it will not be a legal deer cartridge in Ohio.

BB

[cwlongshot]

Good chance that 38/357 dies most of us already have will reload this cartritage...

Back when I first spoke with Moleman I made up a few cases and seated bulelts uing my 357 mag dies.

CW

[Moleman-]

From the PTG reamer print the throat is .357" (so 9mm) and the chamber mouth is .391"ish. Might of just been a test version and the final size could be .355, .357. or .358. With the .012" case taper you'll want to use a modified steel die with some taper. Initally I was going to just push a 357AR reamer in another .110" on a spare pistol barrel I use for testing until I found out about the added taper.

[jmort]

It is a 200 yard gun
Not sure how it is going to displace much in the AR15 platform

150 grain 350 Legend Ammunition

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 2325 1800
50 -1.5
100 1968 1289 0
200 1647 903 -7.6
300 1373 628 -28.1

Same bullet/Ammunition, 150 grain Winchester tipped 300 BO with way "Better SD and Greater Penetration and Less Recoil" than the 350 Legend.

DISTANCE
(YARDS)
VELOCITY
(FPS)
ENERGY
(FT-LBS)
TRAJ
SHORT RANGE
(IN)
muzzle 1900 1202
50 1.1
100 1717 982 0
200 1548 798 -9

[Drm50]

As far as selling for deer in straight wall states it will have to bail at least a 150gr bullet at 23-2400 Fps to get much attention. White tail deer aren't hard to kill but what most serious guys are after is a cartridge that shoots
flatter than what's already on the market. With 38/357 minimum for caliber and the design bullets in this range it's going to be hard to come up with anything that will be a improvement on performance of what we already have. This might sell to hunters buying their first rifle but I'm not excited by it. I thought when I first herd about it that is was going to be a 35cal version of 375w which may have had some advantage in velocity. When I gets right down to it it's going to be hard to get 30/30 ballistics out of a straight case.

[MT Chambers]

Okay, in a levergun what is the advantage to this over say the .35 Rem. or the .356 Win? I know there will be those special ops Green Berets here that need it in an AR chambered for it.

[indian joe]

As far as selling for deer in straight wall states it will have to bail at least a 150gr bullet at 23-2400 Fps to get much attention. White tail deer aren't hard to kill but what most serious guys are after is a cartridge that shoots
flatter than what's already on the market. With 38/357 minimum for caliber and the design bullets in this range it's going to be hard to come up with anything that will be a improvement on performance of what we already have. This might sell to hunters buying their first rifle but I'm not excited by it. I thought when I first herd about it that is was going to be a 35cal version of 375w which may have had some advantage in velocity.

When It gets right down to it it's going to be hard to get 30/30 ballistics out of a straight case.

I'm just a curious aussie but isnt that the whole point of the straight case rules ? (misguided tho they might be) to limit carryover trajectory - so when you miss bambi at 287 yards you dont ping some kid on a bike a couple of farms away??

[dverna]

Okay, in a levergun what is the advantage to this over say the .35 Rem. or the .356 Win? I know there will be those special ops Green Berets here that need it in an AR chambered for it.

I believe it is targeted at those who need a straight wall cases due to local state regulations.

There is a market for AR owners as well.

It cannot match the ballistics of the .35 Rem or .356...but those are not legal in some areas and neither can run in an AR15.

[dverna]

I’m sure most of us have guns in the safes that take ammo that was factory supported at one time. W/ any new cartridge you should plan in case it goes away like the majority of them do. I converted a 336 to 356 Winchester well after the cartridge was dead. So factory support means little to me.

What’s confusing to me is the fact that the 357 AR has been around for many years yet people are acting like the 350 Legend is brand new and nothing is like it. I realize they are two different cartridges w/ different dimensions. But the similarities are very close and many people have been using the 357 AR w/ great success for years. Can’t wait for one of the big manufacturers to come out w/ their version of the 358 Yeti and claim it as their own [emoji23]



Agree on case length but the reports I’ve read have said .355 diameter bullets. Components will happen over time and w/ popularity. You can make the case from 223 brass so that’s not an issue. And chamber reamers are already listed by one company. Dies will happen over time as well. Give it time and everything will be available.

I had dozens of rifles at one time and the only one that was hard to find ammunition for was a .38/55. But even it could be fed factory if I ordered the stuff. I shoot very little factory ammunition except for .22’s and 12 ga., so reloading is normal for me. But, if selling a gun, there is a larger market if the rifle has factory ammunition available. Case in point....the .35AR will be a lame duck now that the .350 has been introduced. Why would anyone invest in one?

[P Flados]

The lever gun is easier now. Get a Henry in 223 and have a 35 Cal barrel fitted and you are there. If Henry will offer the 350, they will sell them plenty in the straight wall pistol round states.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Too bad the 351 Winchester is not more available. We have a .401 Model 1910 Winchester and it has all the thwap of the 414 Supermag ina 336 Marlin But in a semi auto. If ILLinois would just wake up !!!
Mike in Peru

[P Flados]

The 350 legend is a plus in a number of ways.


For hunters in the straight wall states that want a bolt gun, they will now have a capable deer gun with factory ammo.
For hunters in the straight wall states that want an AR platform gun, they will now be able to choose from 45 cal or 35 cal with factory ammo.
For hunters in the straight wall states that want a lever gun, they can hope Henry will jump on board.
For all reloaders going with the 350 Legend, loss of factory ammo will be "no big deal". There is the Starline 223 basic and there is the ability to neck up 223s (I have already confirmed this works). For dies, the 38/357 dies that many already have will do the job ok.
For 35 cal lovers everywhere, the gun will be a good capable 150 yard deer gun as is. Optimum bullets could extend effective range out probably another 100 yards provided the gun accurate and the shooter can deal with a trajectory and wind drift.
For all reloaders with 35 cal rifles, bullet selection should improve.


The gun will have a small performance edge over the 357 maximum single shot rifles. The hunters with 357 maximum rifles tend to be very happy with their guns. They have proven that the round is good, but they tend to complain more about the lack of choices for good hunting bullets more than anything else.

FYI, factory loads currently show a 150 plastic tip at 2325 fps and a 180 soft point at 2100 fps.

[500Linebaughbuck]

357 herrett or a 358 idc is there also.

[Texas by God]

If the.351 WSL had used .358" bullets it would probably still be with us.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[northmn]

Too bad the 30 Remington is not still popular, then the AR people could have a 375AR. It was a rimless 30-30.

Flados points are good ones. Personally I could care less about AR offerings but think the cartridge has potential in its place. We have both rifle zones and shotgun zones in MN but I think the shotgun zones are still shotgun. Still if MN follows the other states lead they might permit straight cased rifle cartridges. Looking at the advances of saboted shotguns and rifled shotguns they might as well.


DEP

[dverna]

The 350 legend is a plus in a number of ways.


For hunters in the straight wall states that want a bolt gun, they will now have a capable deer gun with factory ammo.
For hunters in the straight wall states that want an AR platform gun, they will now be able to choose from 45 cal or 35 cal with factory ammo.
For hunters in the straight wall states that want a lever gun, they can hope Henry will jump on board.
For all reloaders going with the 350 Legend, loss of factory ammo will be "no big deal". There is the Starline 223 basic and there is the ability to neck up 223s (I have already confirmed this works). For dies, the 38/357 dies that many already have will do the job ok.
For 35 cal lovers everywhere, the gun will be a good capable 150 yard deer gun as is. Optimum bullets could extend effective range out probably another 100 yards provided the gun accurate and the shooter can deal with a trajectory and wind drift.
For all reloaders with 35 cal rifles, bullet selection should improve.


The gun will have a small performance edge over the 357 maximum single shot rifles. The hunters with 357 maximum rifles tend to be very happy with their guns. They have proven that the round is good, but they tend to complain more about the lack of choices for good hunting bullets more than anything else.

FYI, factory loads currently show a 150 plastic tip at 2325 fps and a 180 soft point at 2100 fps.

Yes, that sums it up very well.

The only other thing I might add is the advantage it holds as a cheap plinking round for reloaders and casters. I currently use .38/.357 lever actions for that role. This round will need a bit more powder buy not much more to get say 1000-1200 fps with a 125-158gr bullet. And being able to load it with carbide dies, using cheap cases, will be a real plus over a bottleneck rifle cartridge. With the challenges of getting accurate .223 cast loads, this platform should be a lot easier if someone wants inexpensive blasting ammunition. Of course those mouse loads will not operate in an AR but this will be a significant improvement over say a Ruger 77 in .357 Mag. as it can operate over a wider range of velocities.

It eclipses the range of a .357 Mag. for deer hunting. It carries 900 ft-lbs to 200 yards.

Frankly, I do not see any negatives in this offering by Winchester. The XPR is not an elegant rifle but an accurate one. It would be sweet in a Howa mini-Mauser.

[Drm50]

I'm just a curious aussie but isnt that the whole point of the straight case rules ? (misguided tho they might be) to limit carryover trajectory - so when you miss bambi at 287 yards you dont ping some kid on a bike a couple of farms away??

That is the misguided reason for straight case limits. I irks hunters in my area for two reasons. 1st they allow
modern Muzzel loaders that use smokeless powder that exceed a 3030 class rifle in velocity- hence carry distance. Second they have 38 cal minimum which forces us to carry buffalo guns to shoot deer and there are
a few legal calibres that get into this range, like 405 Win. Lastly about 4/5ths of Ohio is fairly flat where wild shots could occur. The population even in flat portions is thin, major populations around the metro areas. I live
in Appalacian area. Very steep and rugged country where you could use anything safely. WVa is right across the
River. So if there is a 35 cal that will shot in realm of 30/30 it would be popular and legal- don't make sense do it?

[curioushooter]

The home for this cartridge will be the CZ527. I hope Winny won't make it proprietary and starline will pick it up and the Czechs have the good sense to make it in their outstanding platform.

The cartridge may find success in the AR...but that market is terribly flooded.

May also be good in the Win92/Mar94 sized leverguns, but they've never made one in max.

One thing I don't like about that cartridge is it headspaces on the mouth, and most jacketed .357 are meant for revolver duty and most .358 are meant for lever gun duty...both with roll crimps. Methinks that they better sort out getting a good taper crimp on these or a crimp on the case body.

[Moleman-]

Since we're in the levergun section and talking about a straight walled case for special DNR zones that prohibit bottlenecks or cases that are too long. The easy way to go would be to get a marlin 336. Get a 1894 Marlin 357barrel and ream it to 357Max. Shorten the ring on the front of the 336 bolt about .005"-.010" so you can actually headspace it and not have a false headspace reading caused by no gap between the bolt and barrel. Deepen the extractor and ejector cuts for the smaller rim. Put the 1894 barrel (or make your own) on the 336 and modify the carrier to work with the shorter and narrower 357Max cartridge. Do it right and it will feed 38, 357mag and max. Why Marlin doesn't do it is a very good question. The 336 action is already used for the 308 Marlin which runs around 47Kpsi. So from a gas handling angle we know Marlin feels safe with it at 47Kpsi and if you limit a 357 Maximum load to 47Kpsi you will match what the 350 Legend velocity runs according to the Winchester site. Using a 20" barrel (same as what they rate the legend with) a 180gr HCFN speer, 22.4gr W296, 2.145" COL, 2111 fps (Quickload guess which for 357max/357AR I've found to be usually just below the chrony average). Sure looks like it's the same performance. Need to cut the front sight, mag tube and forearm hanger dovetails on mine with an octagon barrel but it will feed fire and extract these 38/357mag/357Max cartridges with the mag tube held on with some "gunsmithing duct tape".

[bruce drake]

Too bad the 30 Remington is not still popular, then the AR people could have a 375AR. It was a rimless 30-30.

Flados points are good ones. Personally I could care less about AR offerings but think the cartridge has potential in its place. We have both rifle zones and shotgun zones in MN but I think the shotgun zones are still shotgun. Still if MN follows the other states lead they might permit straight cased rifle cartridges. Looking at the advances of saboted shotguns and rifled shotguns they might as well.


DEP


I built a Ar15 carbine upper in .30 Herrett Rimless last fall. It is made from a trimmed and formed 6.8SPC cartridge case. The 6.8 SPC is a direct descendant of the 30 Remington case. Its just shorter and necked up to 30 caliber. Its formed with a 30 Herrett sizing die and and 6.8 SPC shellholder. With the right powder and bullet, its equal to a 30-30 Win.

With that thought, I'd jump at a 35-30 Winchester 94 or a 35 remington bolt or lever-action rifle also.

[cwlongshot]

More info

SAMMI has approved the cartridge! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/01/25/350-legend-and-reloading-shot-show/

CW

[dragon813gt]

More info

SAMMI has approved the cartridge! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

That’s been known since the announcement. Problem is SAAMI’s site. It’s not listed under new cartridges. And you can’t view any of the old chamber drawings right now. I really want to see the dimensions.

[cwlongshot]

More info

SAMMI has approved the cartridge! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/01/25/350-legend-and-reloading-shot-show/

CW

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/30-cal-399-cal-chamber-reamers-nopix-/18327-350-legend-saami-chamber-reamer.html?search_query=350+legend&results=1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/A%2035020Legend20chamber20reamer_zpsjzpqb52t.jpg

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/new-winchester-350-legend-10003012?pid=1307190825

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/A%20deer-single-bullet_zpshlow7jfl.png

CW

[dragon813gt]

Check the date on the reamer print. That might not be the final version.

[curioushooter]

There's an easier way to make a lever gun legal for Indiana (which allows bottle necks but limits to 1.8" long) public lands...357 Herrett. Will work with Win 94/Mar336/Mossy464 etc. Just a straight forward rebarrel. No messing with the bolt. No messing with the extractor. The 200 grain FTX boolit is the obvious jacketed choice here. And many gas check cast boolits work as well.

For Ohio you just get something in 375 Winchester. Starline is making the brass now.

What's cool about the Legend is that it should work in the .223 envelope. Not that I am interested in AR15s in this cartridge. But I think the small frame bolt actions would be a great home for this cartridge.

I was all hot to get a ruger no1 or no3 coverted to max. Now I think I will wait and see what comes out in Legend. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Ruger no1 in it or a CZ527. Both of those I'd snap up, especially iff the CZ was offered in Left hand.

[bikerbeans]

How can it be a blow out 223 rem when the casehead on that print is 0.015" larger than a 223 casehead?

BB

[Moleman-]

How can it be a blow out 223 rem when the casehead on that print is 0.015" larger than a 223 casehead?

BB

Guys do it for 5.45x39 when fire forming 223 cases to it. The cases look funky with the rim and base still at .376"-.378" depending on who's brass it is. My gut says it can't be as safe as a proper case. I'm sticking with 357AR as the 350 legend doesn't gain you anything other than factory ammo which I don't buy anyway.

[dragon813gt]

How can it be a blow out 223 rem when the casehead on that print is 0.015" larger than a 223 casehead?

BB

The print is also showing it takes .355 bullets. The date is rather old and dimensions are conflicting w/ what’s been reported. Until an actual SAAMI chamber drawing is available I’m not believing anything. CMMG says it takes a standard AR BCG so we know what size the case head will be.

[richhodg66]

Is it just me or does this sound like a re-invention of the "obsolete" .351 WSL?

[NSB]

It headspaces on the case mouth. This will require sizing every time you reload....if you reload. I don't see brass being any more available than 357max brass was until Starline started making it. Everyone wants one of these because they want to shoot it out of an AR platform and there's nothing wrong with that but....it doesn't offer anything over the .357max. If they'd come out with a lever gun in .357max and just used that cartridge they'd have pulled a rabbit out of the hat. Much easier to reload and many states don't allow AR type guns to be used. I've been hearing and reading for years that everyone wants to know why they don't offer a lever gun in .357max. I guess Win just wants you to have to buy their gun and proprietary ammo. FWIW, even with the .1" longer case you're not going to get what you can get out of .357max reloads. I wished they'd have just come out with a new lever gun for the MAX round. You can use a lever gun anywhere you can use a rifle. It's also a great round in a rifle. I'm getting around 2400fps out of mine with 158g bullets and according to Bellm and White I can bump that up a couple more hundred fps if I'd like.

[bikerbeans]

There is one good thing about the 350L, something to talk about when its to dang cold to go to the gun range.

BB

BB

[cwlongshot]

CMMG announced they are building AR rifles, uppers and offering just barrels and magazines!!

CW

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I'm not a fan of trimming brass. If RCBS made a set of X dies for it that could hold headspace dimensions, I'd be down for the right bolt gun. A better and cheaper alternative to the Ruger 77/357 would be great!

[cwlongshot]

Straight cases tend to grow. VERY SLOW, and compaired to bottle neck cases RARELY require trimming. Take 9mm, 40 & 45... I dont ever remember “needing” to trim one.

I also dont remember trimming my 357max cases. I fail to see any evidence this 350 would be any different.

CW

[NSB]

Straight cases tend to grow. VERY SLOW, and compaired to bottle neck cases RARELY require trimming. Take 9mm, 40 & 45... I dont ever remember “needing” to trim one.

I also dont remember trimming my 357max cases. I fail to see any evidence this 350 would be any different.

CW

Your Max cases don't headspace on the case mouth. These do. The potential for headspace problems is real. It may not be a big problem, but it's certainly potentially a problem. I very rarely ever trim straight wall pistol cases myself, but I've had problems albeit infrequently in the past with semi-auto cases needing to be trimmed.

[beltfed]

one THING about the 357 ar, 357Maxi and now this WW reinvention:
A possible ISSUE in the use of 357 mag JSP Pistol bullets in these calibers:
These pistol bullets, when shot over heavy charges and to High velocities,
can leave a Jacket in the barrel.
This phenom was Known to happen back in the days of the Bob Milek publishing his loading
the 357 Herrett ctg with 158 gr JSP Pistol bullets and heavy charges.
Not just a rumor: This happened with a friend of mine in shooting Milek's loads in his T/C.
Not so good in his T/C contenders, but could be a real disaster in an AR-15
When I was shooting my 357 Herrett, I loaded it only with slower powders and Rifle
type Cast Bullets. No Problem

beltfed/arnie

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Straight cases tend to grow. VERY SLOW, and compaired to bottle neck cases RARELY require trimming. Take 9mm, 40 & 45... I dont ever remember “needing” to trim one.

I also dont remember trimming my 357max cases. I fail to see any evidence this 350 would be any different.

CW

Good point! I thought about this after I posted.

[cwlongshot]

one THING about the 357 ar, 357Maxi and now this WW reinvention:
A possible ISSUE in the use of 357 mag JSP Pistol bullets in these calibers:
These pistol bullets, when shot over heavy charges and to High velocities,
can leave a Jacket in the barrel.
This phenom was Known to happen back in the days of the Bob Milek publishing his loading
the 357 Herrett ctg with 158 gr JSP Pistol bullets and heavy charges.
Not just a rumor: This happened with a friend of mine in shooting Milek's loads in his T/C.
Not so good in his T/C contenders, but could be a real disaster in an AR-15
When I was shooting my 357 Herrett, I loaded it only with slower powders and Rifle
type Cast Bullets. No Problem

beltfed/arnie

FYI. Those probelms where with the popular (because chesp) Speer HALF JACKETS!

Offered and DISCONTINUED in 30, 357 & 44. When loaded they looked like a typical rn or swc LEAD bullet. Basically a tall thicker gas check.

As mentioned these are discontinued Speer bullets.

CW

[Moleman-]

SAAMI specs are up.....interesting choice for the case mouth dia, freebore/throat dia and bore/groove size. You're not getting a common .358" to fit, should be able to use .357" cast in the .355" barrel. https://saami.org/technical-information/new-cartridge-chamber-drawings/

[Texas by God]

SAAMI specs are up.....interesting choice for the case mouth dia, freebore/throat dia and bore/groove size. You're not getting a common .358" to fit, should be able to use .357" cast in the .355" barrel. https://saami.org/technical-information/new-cartridge-chamber-drawings/.355"? As Maxwell Smart says- "Missed it by that much." Oh Big Red, ya done it again.

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[Moleman-]

Looking at the SAAMI specs, there is a tolerance notation of +.002". That would allow you to use a 357 barrel, .380" case mouth dia, and .359" freebore/throat on your barrel so you could use .358" jacketed and cast boolits and still be within SAAMI specs........ Of course your reamer would have to be ground to those specs. Makes you wonder if the SAAMI prints are just a very strange choice or smoke and mirrors.

[dragon813gt]

Am I reading them correctly? Bullet diameter is .357 and the barrel spec is .355. That seems strange.

[beltfed]

cwlongshot.
The problem of hot "Milek" loads in the 357 Herrett occurred with
Hornady JSP and JHP bullets loaded in my friends and others' T/Cs.
I believe the powder was "a lot of" IMR 4227.
Not half jacketed Speers, tho I would NOT use them either in really hot loaded 38cals
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Oh, more specifically the bullets were 158 gr JSP and JHP Hornady Pistol bullets
beltfed/arnie

[Moleman-]

Were those the SJHP that they had before the XTP lines? I had a partial box of them left over from a 357Mag I had back in the early 90's. When I first started shooting the first 357AR test barrel they were the first ones that got used up. This is the only pic I could find of them real quick in my folders. Hornady 158gr SJHP on the top, Sierra 200gr RN on the bottom. They haven't made them in at least 20 years or so by now. Never had any issues with them though. Oddly out of the two, that 158gr needs the longer freebore.

[cwlongshot]

Bob Milek used and swore by H4227 as THE 357 Herrett powder.

I had a 14” Contender in Herrett because of the writings of Bob Milek and Steve Herrett. I read all his writings intently. He shot allot of the early offerings simply because the bullets like Gold Dot and XTP where not yet yet invented!
The bullets he shot alot of where a Sierra hp 158 and the silhouette bullets as well as the Speer 160 Half Jacket.
Later he shifted to the purpose built SSP Line from Hornady. The 180 in the 357 and the 130 in the 30.

CW

[P Flados]

Over at the msr site, I was looking at the SAAMI chamber / ammo dimensions. I posted my take on things, here is copy of what I wrote (with minor updating):

The overall chamber probably works fine for the meeting the Winchester primary target user (straight wall state, bolt action hunter, non-reloader). But darn if it does not mess with the rest of us in a number of ways.

The 0.355 is strange, but it is not a total disaster. People need to relax a little.

With the 0.357 min freebore, A 0.357 bullet will chamber ok and will size down in the barrel fine with no problems. They actually seem to call for 0.357 bullets in the factory ammo. If they allow 0.357 bullets, the chamber freebore really needs to be above min (0.357), mid SAAMI tolerance or 0.358 should really be minimum target for actual guns.

0.358 bullets can be used, but for most they will need to be seated very deep to avoid jamming into an undersized freebore.

The 0.355 bore makes a mess of the supply chain for new bullets. Regardless of the factory choice, some will want 0.355 bullets. Although 0.357 will be best for any new bullets from general bullet makers (this size will work fine for all three choices), they know that some will be too paranoid to use 0.357 in a 0.355 gun and 0.357 will also not sell to many with 0.358 guns. They also know that there will be a very limited market for true 9mm rifle bullets. It really messes the most with those wanting new/better 0.358 bullets (basically you can forget it).

A 0.357" bore size and 0.359 freebore would have been just so much better.

The min/max (1.71/1.72) on chamber length is not optimum IMO. If they had made the chamber 1.70/1.71 it would be much better/easier to convert 223.

And then there is the taper. The 0.012" taper is much more than we use for the 357AR. Some will reload with standard 38/357 dies, but they will be working their brass a lot. For bolt action guys, the standard 38/357 might make a reasonable neck sizer, but most 350 reloaders will probably need to pop for a set of all steel 350 dies (that I assume will become available).

For custom guns, some may want to go for a hybrid. Stick with enough standard 350 dimensions to allow factory ammo to shoot, but use a 0.357 blank and open the freebore up enough to allow using 0.358 bullets.

[HangFireW8]

Info I found:


Approximately 20 percent less recoil than .243 Win.
20 percent more more penetration than .243 Win.


Not this BS again (not your fault dverna). WHAT LOAD of the 243 Win?

Are we really going to compare to the .243 Win? How about trajectory? Muzzle energy? 300 yard energy?

Is there anything more pointless than comparing to a wildly different concept of cartridge?

Does any AR-limited cartridge really generate any excitement beyond a few gun writers, experimenters, and some newbies?

Make it really exciting, come up with a competition where only it is allowed to compete!

(crawls off of porch and goes back in house)

[dragon813gt]

I looked right past those claims because they’re bogus. The selling point for this round is less recoil than a 450 Bushmaster for restricted hunting zones. All the rest is creative numbers generated by a marketing department.

The dimensions aren’t surprising in the scheme of things. Winchester is in the business of selling guns and ammo. They don’t care about conveying cases from readily available 5.56 cartridges. They want to sell you loaded ammo and eventually cartridges for reloading. This may be the undoing for the round but we will have to wait and see. Part of the reason the 300BLK took off is because of relatively easy case conversion.

[bikerbeans]

I personally would not blow out 223 brass to make 350L. Bulging the sidewall just above the casehead with 55k psi seems really stupid to me.

BB

[dverna]

If it really is a .355 bore, they will regret that decision.

[Time Killer]

My too cents. Wish they would have contacted Mole Man and Mad Dog Weapons. Then tweaked or gone with a system that has been being tweaked for several years now. It would make a wonderful AR round if they would have SAMI specked something similar to what Mole Man created. If you can not convert 223 or at least straight wall 223 factory brass I do not think it will take off as well as the 300 BO did. To me the 357AR was looking to be both a better hunting round and a still be an excellent subsonic round. All I can hope for now is that Winchester has not changed it so much that they ruin all the work done with the wildcat round. One of the advantages of Mole Man's creation was the ability to raise the pressure of the round to 55k from the 40k listed for the 357 Max round. They also seem to be pushing the 150gr round. In my opinion Mole Mans original concept of using the 180 grain round was optimum for this cambering. This would have made it the little brother to the 450 bushmaster as it runs about the same speed with the 180gr and the bushmaster does the 240 gr rounds. If the rifling is built around the 150 gr round to give it the speed boost it may limit the accuracy of the heaver rounds in the gun. AHH rant over.

[dragon813gt]

If it really is a .355 bore, they will regret that decision.

Will they? This is the same company that gave is the WSM and WSSM cartridges. They sold lots of ammo, guns and components and then bailed on the product lines. They made money and left everyone hanging that bought the rifles. It may be the people that buy these rifles that will regret it.

[dverna]

Dragon,
I bought a .243 WSM at a killer price and regretted it. Luckily I sold it for what I paid for it. It was a good lesson.

I am fortunate that I do not need any calibers designed in the last 30 years. This has saved me a lot of money...and that should continue until I die. LOL.

[cwlongshot]

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf

Well, its pretty much dead to me now... I have a renewed interest so Ill be looking at the 357AR again!

Here is some more information on and about for those still enamored...

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/?forum=645266

[Time Killer]

Same here, my funds were a little tight with the most recent run. I will just wait for Mad Dog to have another run of the barrels. I prefer to be able to convert 223 brass and shoot a 358 dia bullet.

[beltfed]

Winchester would have been wiser to re-introduce the 38-55 Ballard and/or the 375 win in their m 94 lineup.
Likewise Marlin 336s in hunting carbines/rifles other than their 336CB

Of course these are not suitable for bolt rifles and ARs.
beltfed/arnie

[edp2k]

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAAMI-Z299.3-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-14-2015.pdf

Interesting, SAAMI drawings for bullet specs are:


350 legend 0.357
357 mag and 38 spl 0.358
9mm is 0.3555

tolerance for all 4 is -0.003

so the 350 legend is NOT a 0.355 bullet.

Looking at chamber dimensions (groove),

350 legend 0.355 tolerance +0.002
9mm 0.355 tolerance +0.004
357 mag and 38 spl 0.355 tolerance + 0.004

So, beside a slight difference in tolerance, 350 legend and 357 mag/9mm are basically the same.

I predict that, in the "court of public opinion", this cartridge will out "blackout" the 300 blackout.
I can't wait to see the stampeed of fanboys in the gun rags and gun boards dropping the old and going for the new! :)
Just like in the Dr. Seuss "Sneeches" story :)

Winchester should change the name to the "350 Blkout Creedmoor" and then
watch all the 6.5 and 6 mm creedmoor guys drop those cartridges and start praising this one!

Psst, anyone want to buy a star tattoo on their belly? :) :) :)

[beltfed]

Of note:
Colt made its modern revolvers-Python, Det spl, etc with 0.355" groove dia.
The guns functioned and were very accurate with the plethoria of 0.358 diameter
357 mag and 38 spl ammo out there. No one worried about it.
beltfed/arnie

[Drm50]

I'm in the over hyped camp. If this cartridge don't take off it will flop. It's not costing Win big retooling money on
guns or the ammo. The ony brite spot is endless supply of 223 brass to reload. There is much reason to buy one unless you are forced by game laws. I'm sticking with 375w and I wouldn't have them if it wasn't necessary in
Ohio. When Ohio came out with the law I had 28 deer class rifles. 30/30 through 30/06. I couldn't use any of them. Just happened to have a 1895 45/70. Never thought of it as a deer gun but had to use it. Then I got 375 and 44mg Marlins. Decided 375w best way to go and offed Marlin 375 and got Ruger#3s so I could shoot spitzer bullets. If they allowed 30/30, 32 or 35, I would get rid of 375s & 44mg. The only reason I kept the 45/70 in the
rack was for grins and it shoot well.

[Willbird]

IMHO the best thing to come from it might be some better bullets for us to use in 357AR :-).

It is a shame that Hornady stopped making the 180 SSP bullets.

Bill

[cwlongshot]

AMEN!!


Speer made another one that was great in the Maximum. A 170 Gold dot shortly after re named DEEP CURL. Then in typical speer fashion... DISCONTINUED.

CW


IMHO the best thing to come from it might be some better bullets for us to use in 357AR :-).

It is a shame that Hornady stopped making the 180 SSP bullets.

Bill

[Moleman-]

Every 6 months or so I'll send an email to Hornady asking about the 180gr SSP. Always get a canned response back but figure it doesn't cost anything and it can't hurt. Last one I sent mentioned the 350Legend shooters would be looking for a bullet and their best fit is discontinued which will push them to the Speer 180gr HCFN or Winchesters offerings.

[Warhawk]

I plan to build an AR in 350L once it becomes common and any bugs are worked out.

And if Henry were to chamber their Long Ranger in this caliber, I'd be a buyer.

[P Flados]

All indications are that the Legend was made for folks that must use a straight wall case, want a bolt gun and want factory ammo availability.

For the target crowd, it should work pretty well.

For other platforms, yes it should work in an AR-15 based gun.

Not as well as the 357AR (Rimless maximum) in my opinion. We are pretty far in "getting the bugs worked out" for the 357AR.

However, if you do want a 350 Legend AR, consider going with an "Optimized" Legend. Specifically, a 0.357" barrel, a 0.359" throat and a chamber depth right at minimum. The gun will still meet SAAMI specs and would be much better than a "standard" version.

One thing that will help AR folks in both the 357AR and the 350 Legend is a good source of ready to use magazines that work without all of the tweaking.

[FergusonTO35]

Winchester would have been wiser to re-introduce the 38-55 Ballard and/or the 375 win in their m 94 lineup.
Likewise Marlin 336s in hunting carbines/rifles other than their 336CB

Of course these are not suitable for bolt rifles and ARs.
beltfed/arnie

Yes, indeed. We could also argue that Winny needs to roll out a new lower cost lever action to chamber them. The Mirokus are nice but I just don't see too many hunters dropping over a grand on one simply to have an additional gun season option. Surely, there is a manufacturer somewhere that they could hire to produce an econo-94 in straight wall cartridges for the masses. I could see them selling really well in straight wall areas, especially because (unlike the .30-30) they wouldn't be competing against thousands of used rifles.

[P Flados]

A less than overpriced 357Max in a lever has been hoped for by many for a long time.

Regardless of how much sense it would make, do not hold your breath.

[cwlongshot]

A less than overpriced 357Max in a lever has been hoped for by many for a long time.

Regardless of how much sense it would make, do not hold your breath.

100% Agreed...:goodpost:

CW

[P Flados]

If I was more ambitious, I would find a beat up old marlin 30-30 and try to design a "conversion kit" with all of the small parts (not the barrel).

Actually the best hope at the moment is a Henry Long Ranger in 350 Legend. The $900+ price is not cheap, but if it came in a 35 straight wall rimless from the factory, there would be customers. And I really do not think it would take much at all on Henry's part. The big question would be how well the WW factory ammo would work in it.

[Willbird]

There's an easier way to make a lever gun legal for Indiana (which allows bottle necks but limits to 1.8" long) public lands...357 Herrett. Will work with Win 94/Mar336/Mossy464 etc. Just a straight forward rebarrel. No messing with the bolt. No messing with the extractor. The 200 grain FTX boolit is the obvious jacketed choice here. And many gas check cast boolits work as well.

For Ohio you just get something in 375 Winchester. Starline is making the brass now.

What's cool about the Legend is that it should work in the .223 envelope. Not that I am interested in AR15s in this cartridge. But I think the small frame bolt actions would be a great home for this cartridge.

I was all hot to get a ruger no1 or no3 coverted to max. Now I think I will wait and see what comes out in Legend. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Ruger no1 in it or a CZ527. Both of those I'd snap up, especially iff the CZ was offered in Left hand.

Easier for IN is to just trim 35 Remington brass to the legal length, and use it in a 35 Remingon rifle ??

The 375 Win does not fit into my AR15 :-).

Bill