Imminent Domain, what to do

[richhodg66]

A few years ago, the wife and I bought an 18 acre place just outside a town of about 1500 people (maybe three miles out of city limits) which had a house and shop on what was a rock quarry 60 years ago. Perfect for a guy like me as it is wooded and rolling and the nearest house is at least a half mile away. Across the county road is a 30 acre tract with a construction company office on it and nothing else, to our direct west a guy has a hunting cabin and woods (he's not there much) the rest is farmed all around us, particularly right across the road to our north which I learned is a 200 acre + place owned by a man and his wife in their '80s or thereabouts who've had it forever.

About two weeks ago, the fella who owns the construction company next door drove up and let me know the city needed to build a new sewage lagoon (apparently the current one is inadequate for some reason) and is planning to force the old guy to the north to give up 56 acres to build this thing maybe a half mile from me. This is going to involve running pipe out from the town along Highway 40 then north along my side of the minimally maintained county road I live off of which just from what I've discerned will be a big mess and encroach on a bunch of my property (not sure what the county has as easement for this) and will block my driveway while it's going on (500 feet from the road to the house).

They had a quick town hall meeting which I missed most of due to a work commitment which apparently got rather heated. My wife did attend and it apparently did get ugly and they tabled the discussion for a while. When I got there, I met the father of the guy who told me about this, their family has been around here forever and knows everybody. He was in a heated conversation with the mayor, but it came to light that he knew someone who successfully fought a gas pipeline that was going to similarly run right next to their rural house and he was going to discuss it with them when they got back from traveling. I need to get back in touch with him.

Bottom line, it's wrong all around, I can't see where piping sewage out three miles and building a new lagoon could possibly be cheaper than fixing what they have. I know I need to get more information, but where do I start to fight this? I'm at least in touch with the other affected people now, I'm new to this town/area and work in another town and county, so I don't have the connections they do.

Anybody been through something like this? Seems like an awfully sneaky and under handed way they went about it, I was never notified by any city or county government about this plan and been living here with a mailing address for three years now, they could have sent something out, apparently, I was expected to find out when the back hoes showed up on my property. This is obviously gonna raise my property taxes since they'll have to upgrade the gravel road from what it is and no doubt will kill property values. Thoughts?

[Wayne Smith]

Just on the surface the lack of notification to residences should be a major issue that stops it at least until that is done. Check both the state law and local ordinances on notification.

[koehn,jim]

Get an attorney and fight it. There are lawsuits filed in Texas that stopped the wall in 2006. Imminent Domain can be stopped, but its not a simple thing to do.

[Rick Hodges]

Not enough information about what property they intend to take....ultimately immanent domain means the gov't unit will take the property it needs for the government good. It must make fair compensation for that land. You can hold them up in court for a while.
In my area the city was even able to condemn private property to sell it to GM for a new auto plant. (yes one of them they are now closing) on the grounds that the new plant was good for the city. It was challenged all the way to the Supreme Court, and the city won.

You can fight for the best deal you can get....but it really is difficult to fight city hall. Next election throw the bums out.

[EDG]

There is a good chance that someone influencing this new lagoon is going to make a lot of money.
For one thing a new paved road will increase the value of hard to reach property. Some land owner may be angling to make a killing once a new road is built.
You need to find out who all is pushing the project and why.
You also need a lawyer that is used to seeing these dirty tricks.

[Three44s]

The city seems to have the county in their pocket on this?

I agree on the lawyer but chose wisely. Any lawyer can take your money but it takes a tough experienced one to win. Expirience in condemnation law specifically. I know, we fought a condemnation with the USFS for eight years, collected damages five times what the compensation was to be and still kept our property protected. But only because we were steered to a very specialized capable attorney before all was lost. Our matter was so rotten, the local US Attorney told me he was glad our family won (it was not handled out of his office).

You basically have a two front war ahead for you, one to stop it in the first place and two to get enough compensation in case the first fight ends poorly. I don’t think you will want a stinkin’ sewage hole across the fence from your house to live by.

The city likely wants to pump the misery their folks generate onto you rural folks.

You mentioned a rock pit. Perhaps you need to wrangle the county into permitting that in addition to the compensation fight. You would likely sell out and who would buy your property to live on? If the need for rock is substantial and there is still plenty of material left maybe you could enhance your departure.

Just thinking outside of the box as we have a substantial one ourselves.

Three44s

[Minerat]

Fyi check the county road ROW. In Colorado the Feds gave the Counties a 30 foot wide road easement each side of a section line back in the late 1800's. This ROW was granted on any lands not held in private hands at that time. They could build in the road ROW if that is the case but would need County permission. You can find this out by calling the county road dept. Plus they cannot block your driveway or access unless they provide an alternate access, check with local Fire dept on that. Also you don't live in the town and are not an adjoining owner so they would not provide you notice. They probably posted notice in a paper of local circulation and that is your notice. That is why EVERYONE should read the notices in their papers of record for their town or county.

Do they have to get a county permit for this or are they doing a flagpole annexation. Can't imagine that is their plan with it being 3 miles out if town. Check into the annexation requirements, that may be a way to monkey wrench it too. If they have to get a county permit then they would not condemn until they get that approval. The more expensive you make it to condemn the better luck you will have in stopping it. Good luck.

[William Yanda]

I think you mean "eminent". Just sayin'...…...

[MUSTANG]

This will take multiple focused efforts to stop.

(1) Research and see what City/County official stands to have personal gain (Adjacent/on sewer route properties, Lift/Pump Station locations, ownership/stock in contracting companies, etc..

(2) Engage the printed press, radio, and TV for coverage of the oppressed rural land owners. Engage with a well spoke & researched representative on radio talk shows (lots of people who are active and vote still listen to talk radio).

(3) Research and find out where the Money for the New Sewage Lagoon is coming from. If it is from a Federal or State Grant then write letters opposing the legislation for the Grants, have representatives against show up on hearings, engage the press against the "Wasteful" Spending on the matter. If funding, grant etc.. is already approved, research how and initiate a fight to freeze ALL OF the money pending additional hearings, route validation, impacts, etc...

(4) Research the existing lagoon/sewage system. Can it be remediated, expanded, new technology applied to meet the needs (plan for 20-25 years out on this solution as that's the lifecycle for facility and the length of most BOND FUNDS. Get this information out to public, particularly show how it would be cheaper than taking others property 3 miles or so away.

(5) Research if other parcels around/adjacent to the existing facility can be annexed (or taken by Emminent Domain). This is a case where ALTERNATIVES should be put forward and why the alternatives are better than the taking of land 3 miles away.

Given the size of the Community; I suspect this is a dolling out of Public Monies from the State or Federal Government. Contact the State or Federal elected officials (State or Federal House (Assembly or whatever you have) & Senators and make your case; then let them know if they persist in seizing your property you and many neighbors will vocally campaign against them in future elections = this must occur in conjunction with number 5 above; as a Swamp Critter or a State Swamp critter has to have a way out as they are dangerous when cornered.


Also; research what "Endangered Animals/Insects/Plants" are in your area. Claim that some (or all) are located on the route to your property and a "In Depth Study" must be done. This is a delaying action only. You do not want them (Government) stopping the use of your or your neighbor land.

[adcoch1]

As has been said, figure out why they want to pump it that far out, it sounds like a grant funding thing. As to seizing property, they can do it if they need to, but not without compensation. I used to develop the maps and ROW plans for wsdot for roadway and construction projects like this. They probably have a 30' road easement at minimum. In that they can do whatever they want to, but you have to be able to retain reasonable access.

Side note, most property owners that fought back received 125%-150% value for their property. Also, by offering alternative solutions you may be able to head it off, but these things are rarely a quick thing, and planning could have been ongoing for years before this. Still sounds like they think this location will be either cheaper or less hassle than other locations. Gotta speak up. And vote out those pushing it if they get nasty. Take away the authority from those kind of people.

[lightman]

I'm not an expert but I have a limited amount of experience with this. My experience is with power lines, different than a sewer pond for sure. With my company, the company rep will research property values in the area and attempt to buy the right of way at a reasonable price. If that fails they condemn the property and it goes to court. On power line right of ways they take a right of way out of the property and deed the property back to the land owner. The land owner can use the property as he sees fit with a few exceptions. No buildings, no trees, ect. They can farm it, use it as pasture, ect. Like I said, somewhat different than a sewer pond.

In all deals of this sort the land owner will be fighting an up hill battle. Basically an individual against a municipally or large corporation.

As to blocking your driveway, this should be very temporary. It won't take long for a trackhoe to dig the trench and lay the pipe. Most contractors deal with this all of the time and should make accommodations to you. Such things as using steel plates as bridges, ect. They also usually fix or repair any damage to your existing driveway and yard. Often it is left better than it was.

It still sucks to be the little guy. Please don't mistake that I'm taking sides against you. I'm just relating my experiences. I won't discuss strategies as you already have plenty of post offering advice.

[gnostic]

Save your money, some dirtbag lawyer will tell you he can handle it, he can't... The Las Vegas strip is built on land that was taken by eminent domaine. Make the city, county or state pay a reasonable price that includes a nuisance fee... With the government, the path of least resistance is best...

[Wag]

Great advice in the above. Mustang wrote most of what I was going to add.

Get into the City Council Meetings at EVERY meeting, especially if they have a time set aside for public comment. Raise all of the issues and make all of the accusations you can while you're in those meetings during the public comment time. It's a frustrating time to talk, but be very sure to stay very civil during that process, otherwise, you can be banned from the meetings.

Note that they have to have an agenda of items to discuss during their meeting but that does NOT limit you and your comments. Raise the issue at every meeting, regardless.

If you've gotten your opinion in the local paper and the local radio and pushed people to get to the meetings, you'll have the presence of people in place to make yourself matter a lot more. The kinds of things people hate the most are wasted public money so make a case for that there. Also, a lot of people hate that ecological damage will occur so talk about that, too. Morality is also a huge issue for people so I'd be willing to accuse the city of trying to "steal" the land from a helpless 80-year old owner.

Don't pull any punches. You'll likely only have one to three minutes of time to talk so find out and then get your speech on paper and rehearse it a few times in front of a mirror in order to ensure your own civility while allowing your anger to show. That's hard to do but if you get into too much of a temper tantrum in front of a meeting, you'll lose credibility. And do NOT threaten anyone on the council, even though it's tempting to threaten that you'll get them voted out of office. This will not likely help your cause.

Others on your side may comment as well so feel free to help coach them if they are willing to listen.

Also, if your council meetings try to ban public comment, I believe there are rules which require them to allow it but I'm not certain. You'll have to research it.

At the very least, you may be able to stall this project if you play your cards right. Stall it long enough and they'll finally back off.

We've had an issue on the table in our local county for four years because of a LOT of people going to EVERY meeting, giving almost the exact same speech, recruiting every special interest group they can find and persisting every step of the way. They have "succeeded" in beating that issue so far and while I believe they will finally fail, they have done surprisingly well. FWIW, I don't agree with them, but I have to admire their resiliency and their success so far.

Keep us posted on how it goes. It's a tough battle and I don't envy you at all.

--Wag--

[tomme boy]

You can thank Obama for this. It is part of the EPA unfunded mandates for cleaning up the water at the sewage plants. It is happening at all plants. It just depends on how outdated the system your town has on how it has to be done.

Our town just went through with this. After all was done, our bills went up 400% to cover the cost. And here is what was the most BS part. We have two towns near by. After the plant was finished, they were able to tie into the plant but their bills were no where near as high as ours are in our town. All they had to fund was the pipe that was to be laid to get to the plant.

[Petrol & Powder]

It is Eminent Domain not Imminent Domain. Easy mistake and not critical.

Be careful in the way you approach that fight, you never want to spend more money than is at stake. I've seen more than one overzealous land owner fight "for the principle of it" when they would have been FAR better off negotiating a better sale price for the lost land.

The government DOES have the power to take land for public use and the government must compensate you for the taking of that land.
If the property in question is worth $5000 and the government is willing to give you $5000 for it - IT MAKES NO SENSE to spend $15000 of your own money to ultimately walk away with a $5000 check and $15000 attorney bill.

You have to take the emotional component out of these things or you will fall prey to someone else that will simply capitalize on your emotions.

Think about the fact that you ultimately cannot stop the action from occurring so it's better to walk away with the maximum amount of money and the least amount of cost.
The government agencies involved would rather pay a little more to the landowner and avoid a court battle (that they are ultimately going to win anyway) than to litigate the issue for months or years.
The issue is rarely, "can the government take the land for public use". The answer is almost always - YES, the government can take the land.
The issue occasionally is, "what is a fair market value for the land taken"?

So if they are going to take a small sliver of land, make them pay fair market value and carry on.
If they are going to take so much land that the remainder is no longer useful or marketable - sell the entire parcel to the government. You will not be able to sell it to anyone else so don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

I saw one of these issues with a state road that could have turned out better. The government made an offer that was low. The land owner countered with an unreasonably high demand. They couldn't reach an agreement and ultimately there was a lawsuit that resulted in a fair market value for the land but by the time the land owner paid the attorneys he would have been FAR better off to have reached a settlement prior to trial.

Don't let your emotion drive the boat.

And one last piece of free advice - Don't join other people's emotional battles.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Corruption aside, there must be some reason why the city wants to build a lagoon at that location? Maybe it is close to a river/stream/ditch, so they can drain it periodically?

If they are set on that location, and they need some of your property, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have contacted you already? Maybe they aren't that far in their planning? or maybe the don't need any of your property, if the easement of that unmaintained road is wide enough...then Eminent Domain would not be required.

Fighting Eminent Domain:
It is nearly impossible if the city/county have not made any mistakes in planning. A friend of mine lives on a farm on a county road in Minnesota, when the county planned to widen road and widen the curves, they needed more land to achieve what they wanted to do. Many landowners attempted to fight it and spent lots of money doing so, and the County had all their T's crossed and i's dotted and not one land owner was successful in their fight...except getting a higher compensation for the land that the county needed to buy.

I wish the best for you and your situation and wait to hear more info as you uncover it.

[rkrcpa]

It sounds like two different issues. From what I understand, the impact on your property will be temporary, ending when the pipeline project is complete. If that is true it is not a case of eminent domain so much as infringing upon your right of way. If they already have an easement there is not much you can do to stop them.

As far as the neighbor goes, that sounds like eminent domain and they should be compensated if the project is not stopped outright.

As far as property taxes, it would be a rare thing to have your property taxes go up because of something that lowers the property values.

[MUSTANG]

There is an argument for the "Government Taking" associated with reduced land/property values based on a Government Project. A sewage pond installed by Government next door reduces your property value and utility (Smell, Traffic, other decreasing elements). Through this Government Action; one can argue that the Government has "Taken Value"; outcome would all depend on the eloquence of the owner & lawyer; Disposition of the Judge, and the feeling of ones peers who would be in a Jury if it were a Jury issue.

This in a different vein can be used against the relocation of the Sewage pond. In the Flathead Valley (Kalispell Montana Area) many people were against a Bottling plant being established to bottle water; they argued the environment and the water table would be negatively impacted, resulting in reduction of their Land and Home values. Argument was weak given the volume of ground and surface water in the area; Courts ruled against the neighbors challenge - Bottling Plant is moving forward.

In the Moapa Valley (Moapa Nevada) residents in Moapa argued against a "Drive Through Wild Animal Park" based on the potential for dangerous animals escaping and becoming a threat to the residents of the area, and escaping animals being a threat to the eco system. Never went to court as the County Commissioners wee leaning towards the "Residents" so the developer pulled the plans.

In the Moapa Valley (Moapa Nevada) the power company wanted to put up a bunch of solar panels to create a "Renewable Energy Solar Farm" in the Upper Muddy River area. Myself and other locals argued against it; strongest argument was the "Study" that the power company had made years before that the property the wanted to use was "A Sensitive Area" that needed protection. Of course the reason the power company wanted/owned the property in the first place was because Water Rights were tied to it and if they lost the property- they lost the Water Rights. We won the issue and the Solar Power Farm was cancelled because the Judge it would have gone to said that either it WAS or WAS NOT a sensitive area. If the power company was going to bulldoze the ground and kill off the vegetation and ground/sub surface animals in the area then it was "Obviously NOT a Sensitive Area. The issue of the Power Company Owning and Controlling the Water Rights would come into question, with them falling out of compliance with the State Law/State Engineer requirements to keep the water rights - so they cancelled their plan for a Solar Electric Farm on a couple hundred acres.

Fighting these encroachments requires one to look at the whole environment; find something that will hurt/cause pain to those seeking to "TAKE PROPERTY" or diminish your value; ten hitting them hard where it hurts. Most Government Elected Officials, Bureaucrats, etc.. are not used to a well informed, well organized, and determined opponent. Arm yourself with knowledge, research and allies and go forth and challenge those who would yield power without thought, deliberation, discussion and negotiation for a Best Outcome.

[popper]

Check the eminent domain authority of the city AND county. They should be separate which means the city has gone to the county unless it actually is a county water district. My guess, somebody has a bunch of $ interest in it, like the construction Co? Txdot was planning a connector here between existing roads, to take ~40 300K$ homes. Didn't go very far. Also watch for the possibility that the city will annex out to where the tank is to be built - or another location the other side of town. What is a sewage lagoon? Around here that would be illegal, has to be a sewage processing plant. A open air lagoon (pond)would need EPA air & ground water tests. This sounds more like a remote septic tank deal.

[MUSTANG]

Check the eminent domain authority of the city AND county. They should be separate which means the city has gone to the county unless it actually is a county water district. My guess, somebody has a bunch of $ interest in it, like the construction Co? Txdot was planning a connector here between existing roads, to take ~40 300K$ homes. Didn't go very far. Also watch for the possibility that the city will annex out to where the tank is to be built - or another location the other side of town. What is a sewage lagoon? Around here that would be illegal, has to be a sewage processing plant. A open air lagoon (pond)would need EPA air & ground water tests. This sounds more like a remote septic tank deal.

Current Sewage Lagoons will have either a very thick Pond Liner, or an Impervious Clay layer to prohibit water (effluent) from seeping into the water table; along with aerators; sweeps to address floating debris and algae growth, and other devices. Over time, the sludge is going to build up and the Sludge is "Mined" from the lagoon with a Tractor Bucket, Track Hoe, or.... and then spread over some pre- approved ground.

Of course, one who is trying to stop the project should find out how current sludge is "Mined" and see if there is an argument against the existing or future Sewage System based on the Sludge issue.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

What is a sewage lagoon?

These eight "private" sewage lagoons (owned by Seneca, the sweet corn canning plant), which make up about half a section, are about 2 miles from my back yard.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glencoe,+MN+55336/@44.758102,-94.2018626,1830m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f591fc7fda656f:0x6c389 a6c3a8c2152!8m2!3d44.7690437!4d-94.1517524


These five sewage lagoons are part of the City of Cologne's sanitary sewer system, as you can see, it is right at the edge of that town...about 20 miles from me.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cologne,+MN+55322/@44.7713715,-93.7939303,530m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f5e31f4f98922f:0x587b8 4a7fe385752!8m2!3d44.7688889!4d-93.7805556
notice the proximity to the two lakes, which are connected by and to Carver Creek, which drains into the Minnesota River.

[MUSTANG]

JonBinGlenco has a great photo describing all the things I mentioned on Sewage Lagoons. The "Green" is where algae and other life is growing in the Sewage Lagoon, the Brown - well that is newer raw effluent sometimes referred to as ****, and then the dark (gray turning to black) is a sewage Lagoon where the water has either been removed/evaporated (or new and not yet used) - one can see machinery in that pond which looks to me as if they are cleaning the sludge out and the Black area is the Pond Liner where sludge is gone (Of course an Expert on Sewage Lagoons ad **** processing could weigh in and correct my observations).

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Mustang,
I think that machinery is a pump. They pump the aged sludge/slurry, it has some water content to make it pump-able for up to a couple miles through a flexible hose that may be about 10" dia? The hose get connected to a tractor and plow, they 'incorporate" the slurry right into the soil. They do this once in the spring and once in the Fall...if there is a west wind, then the whole town can smell it. But that is the only time the smell is noticeable.

[MUSTANG]

The local Septic Pump Trucks in both Moapa and Kalispell dispose of Sludge on Fields. Acts as a Fertilizer and soil moderator; Greenies Hate This as they think it contributes to "Algae Blooms" in the waterways. In actuality; all of the high levels of nutrients are gone by the time it is spread on the Fields. Unlike Chicken, Hog, and Stockyard run off where the Nitrogen and other "Fertilizer" items are in high quantities; so high in fact they would burn grass and other items growing in a field - why so much of the ground in those locations has no vegetation; but grows well at the borders.

[richhodg66]

Lots of good information, thanks.

Gonna get in touch with all of the affected people. I'm not the guy who's gonna lose property here, just the encroachment of running that pipe through part of my property and the almost certainty it will raise taxes and drop property values. The old guy whose 56 acres they're talking about taking is the one to lose the most.

I'll ask around, in rural Kansas there has to be a lawyer who has experience in this sort of thing, I just have to find out who that is, get all of us affected by it on a united front and figure out what to do.

[Petrol & Powder]

Can the government take land for public use ? = YES
Can you stop them from taking that land for public use? = NO
Is the government required to compensate you for the land they take? = YES
Does the government have to give you "fair market value" for the land they take? = YES
Is "fair market value" sometimes disputed and settled by the courts? = YES


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO.......find out EXACTLY what the proposal is. Don't ask your neighbor, don't listen to rumor, don't refer to social media, don' listen to the guy at the convenience store down the road.....- go to the government agency and LOOK FOR YOURSELF. Look at plats, plans, drawings, etc. and determine EXACTLY what will be impacted.
Then decide what your loss, if any, will be.

Make your decisions concerning fair market value based on your property that will be impacted.
Don't get emotionally involved in other people's fights and don't base your decisions on emotion.

If the government is going to take a small sliver of your property for a pipeline, get fair market value for the little sliver of land they are taking and go on with your life.

Don't lose money over "principle". Make what money you can because they are going to take that land regardless of how you feel about it.

[popper]

I was raised in a small town in east Ks doring the 50s, it had a real sewage disposal plant. Concrete basins with rotating arms to increase sludge. Don't ever remember seeing any city septic tanks around the small towns. Basically same as a sewage pond. I guess these are really just sludge pits for evaporate drying.

[rancher1913]

been down this road not to long ago. city wanted to expand the airport and take some land from one of my neighbors and the air space from everybody within a 5 mile radius. we were successful in stopping the taking of the air space and the neighbor almost bankrupted himself trying to stop the taking of his land, he lost, they took it.

there is a very big difference in stopping a pipeline from crossing your land and stopping city hall. one is a private company and the other is, well, city hall.

every road has a governmental row that extends "x" number of feet from the centerline of the road, telephone and power and other utilities have unhampered use of the row and you have no say so in what goes thru or get any compensation for it.

[Kraschenbirn]

Dunno about the guy who's losing the 56 acres for the site of the sewage lagoon but it may be that the OP has no actual control over the land where the pipe is to be laid. Most public roads have an easement on both sides ranging from just a few feet to as much as 50 yards and owner of adjacent property has, essentially, no say about public work performed within that boundary. Same goes for 'navigable' waterways. We've recently had a considerable outcry from property owners along a drainage slough feeding into a tributary of the Vermilion River. County drainage commissioners decided to dredge and clean up the slough and, in the process, cleared a 30' strip along both sides of all the brush and trees. Adjacent property owner raised a considerable fuss and, in the end, found that, under state law, they had no recourse against 'public work' performed within the easement zones.

[MaryB]

We redid the sewage lagoons here about 20 years ago... they added a temporary pipe to tanker trucks for the sewage and asked people to keep water use to a minimum for 5 days while they pumped the ponds out, dug down to the clay liner, relined with a rubber membrane system to stop the ground water leak. Back in business on day 6... and it was 1/2 the cost of developing new ponds

[Petrol & Powder]

................ - and the neighbor almost bankrupted himself trying to stop the taking of his land, he lost, they took it.

...................

/\ This is the key point

When it comes to eminent domain the question is not "can the government take the land for public use". The answer to that question is almost always - "Yes, the government CAN take land for public use". That's not where the fight is.

The real question is: "what is fair market value for what they are actually taking"? You have a better chance of winning that battle or at least improving your outcome if you're smart.

[Three44s]

All public roads do not have an official easement. The county road past our ranch is a good example. Our county claims they sort of have an easement. What they are really hang their hat on is adverse possession, beyond that they are bluffing.

The local power company wanted to move the rest of their line down onto the county road like a portion they already had several years ago. The problem is that too many folks run off the road and often shear off poles or anchors in the process.

One such incident while our father was also using the road. A hot rod kid meeting him oncoming sheared a pole on a corner and dropped 12,000 volt three phase right onto the road surface missing him by a few feet.

A few weeks latter .....

We caught the power folks out driving stakes and we told them to roll up their sleeves and meet with us. The area boss tried to be cute with us, telling us they had no record of accidents of the kind we were concerned with. One of his underlings indicated to me the company knows full well the danger after the boss drifted away. The power boss tried to impress us with the imaginary county road easement. That fell flat. We wanted to keep the power line where it is and offered to assist in building better access ourselves as an incentive for them to keep it where it is (out reach of sloppy drivers).

The net result was a stalemate and the power company just left things as they are. That is sad because the power load has grown and the line needs upgrading.

If we were just bean counters we would cheer them moving the line down to the road because if they did that we would have more freedom to dig rock in our pit. But it’s not about money to us. We are concerned about human life and to a lesser extent long power outages while the utility company fix the damages.

Do not kid yourself, government does not always get their ducks in a row. In our fight with the USFS did more blunders than I can enumerate here. The killer goof is that they failed to do an Environmental Assessment to build a new road system. Further, they cooked the books. When the FS let a timber sale contract (three days after the Declaration Of Taking) the logger got in touch with us. We gave him a tour and he was impressed with our road system enough that he requested that the FS delete the unnecessary road segments thus saving the taxpayers that cost. The cooking of the books became obvious when the actual timber sale contract was laid side by side with the cost analysis the FS used in the Taking just three days prior to letting the logging contract. Interestingly, when we asked for a copy of that analysis prior to the Taking, we were informed that the document had been THROWN AWAY!

We were more than willing to accommodate the agency but the they wanted it all their way. We wanted the government to harvest their defective Hemlock more so apparently than they did. With declarations from the government’s own logger on our behalf and a mistake by the US Attorney in Spokane, we were finally able to have our day in court.

The Federal District Judge ruled in our favor by Vacating the Taking. This rattled chops all the way to DC as it had only happened once before (1977 in Ohio I believe). Now the Dept Of Justice took the case over. They appealed to the Ninth Circuit.

We went full on public relations and had things stirred up all the way to the Cheif’s office. This area is a huge hit with the public and we found we had friends from all over the region, the trail using public (primarily horse backers) ready in the wings to let the FS how they felt, which they did, so much so that the Dept of Justice tried to scare our attorney by threatening to get her disbarred!

The Government was HOT!

But our public outreach had nothing to do with any lawyer and our attorney is not one to scare easy.

During Oral Argument at the Ninth Circuit, the lead judge (a Reagan appointee) stopped the DOJ lawyer dead in her tracks ten seconds into her presentation and chewed the Gov a new back side. The DOJ lawyer was struggling for words. Even the two (Carter) judges were starring in disbelief.

While the Ninth Circuit did reinstate the vacated taking they did it such that the FS could not effectively use it. We substantially prevailed on the lack of an environmental assessment and the agency had to ultimately pay us damages.

Now I have no illusions about the situation of our fight being the same or remotely on the same scale as the OP because we were saving our families 3400 acres of good timber land that was being threatened by the government taking just 15 acres from us. But there are parrellels .... We were told ..... “well there is nothing we can do now” by outsiders. “ Just take your lumps and move on .....”

The FS logger ended going broke and those defective Hemlock trees are still spreading their misery. In the settlement there is administrative access for the FS just like we offered repeatedly. Oddly where the Gov stated they were intent on public access to justify the condemnation, when the deal was struck they never even mentioned the trails across our lands even though we also specified trail access for the public in our offers prior to the taking.

We learned a lot, met a lot of good people, made lots of friends. We paved a partnership with the trail using public that gives the FS pause even after 28 years. Least the Government chooses to get high an mighty again .....

Three44s

[samari46]

We had a company that wanted to build a medical and hospital waste right in the middle of town. That got shot down. However in your case a effluent (polite word for human waste) Just cannot be built so as to allow the waste to be pumped into a pit with no remediation or treatment. They the town would have to do an epa environmental study, possibly install a liner to prevent waste from getting into the water table and much more. The idea of just pumping untreated human waste into a pit with no treatment borders on the insane. Sounds like some one or a bunch of someones stand to make some serious bucks thinking they can get away with it. What about plans for treatment, or heavy rains causing the retention pond to overflow onto someones property or into the navigable waterways?. Last I looked it was a 30K fine for causing a sheen or discoloration on or in the navigable waters of the United States. Are the provisions for preventing this??. Maybe they think the quarry would be
the perfect place since its all rock. Who will be responsible for maintaining the pumps and pipe? What type pipe are they going to use? Regular schedule 40 pipe will start to corrode very quickly due to the corrosive elements in human waste so it would have to have a liner of some sort. Plus piping exposed to the elements would have to be also protected. Will they being installing cathodic protection? Gas and oil companies do this as a regular thing when installing pipelines. It protects against corrosion from stray or eddy currents that both occur naturally and from electric lines buried in the ground. Will they have an emergency plan in place regarding monitoring it for leaks or pipeline failures?. And quality of welds. When doing new installs or replacing old pipelines we actually had to have certified welders who could do X ray quality welds. And each joint was actually x rayed to check the quality of the welds, if the weld failed the x ray test it was supposed to be ground out and the weld redone. And Re x rayed.
I could go one but you get where I'm going. There must be a thousand and one details in installing pipelines. Most oil and gas lines are installed underground today. Rarely does one above ground. Hope this does provide arguments in your favor. I will say this. There is a 4-5 foot easement on our property for oil and water lined that runs through our front of the property. They dug it up one day with no notice to tie in a new house across the street. Kicked them off the property and told them send someone for me to talk to regarding the easement. 4 hours later guy shows up and very heatedly starts telling me that it will be done wether or not I want it to. Told him to get off my property. I knew darn well there was an easement when we bought the property. What I objected to was the foreman telling me it will get done with or without me. And no prior notice. Next day another guy shows up and patiently explains to me about the easement. And can they proceed?. I explained to him where was the written notice time and date when this was to be done. he had no argument there. I told him any excavation and back fill was to be done so as to leave my property in as found condition. Well that was not done. called the water company and told then what happened. Showed up with a crew and equipment and did not leave until I was satisfied. Told him I cut the grass there and didn't want busted or broken tractor blades. They did the same to a neighbor of mine, gave him the contact number next day crew shows up at his place. Frank

[Greg S]

My question is how far are you from the proposed new lagoon and what is the prevailing wind direction perticularly during times of calm, (late evening/early morning). Think odor.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup sadly that's the best advice here. You can pay a lawyer thousands to research all of this and make an attempt at it but in the end you will probably loose and what they pay you will be nothing after you pay your lawyer. I worked for the power company for over 30 years. I saw them force right aways onto many people who didn't want them. Nevers saw a single case where the power company lost and that's a private business. You would be fighting the government officials that would rule on the power company.
Save your money, some dirtbag lawyer will tell you he can handle it, he can't... The Las Vegas strip is built on land that was taken by eminent domaine. Make the city, county or state pay a reasonable price that includes a nuisance fee... With the government, the path of least resistance is best...

[richhodg66]

The small town we lived in for years and still own a house in has its sewage lagoon south of town, but probably isn't any farther, maybe not as far, from where we lived than this proposed one will be from us here. I never would have noticed that one if I hadn't driven past it pretty regularly. Done right, I'm sure these can be built with minimal impact.

They said it's a pretty big engineering firm in a nearby town that's doing the work. Not sure if they have done all the EPA studies and bureaucratic details it takes to do just about anything anymore. Gonna look into that too. Like most rural folks, we're on well water out here, so definitely concerns about that.

[Three44s]

It seems like the city folk would rather have the “the hicks in the sticks” smell their “do” than they who have made it, otherwise they would fix what is already serving the purpose where it is now.

Three44s

[waksupi]

yup sadly that's the best advice here. You can pay a lawyer thousands to research all of this and make an attempt at it but in the end you will probably loose and what they pay you will be nothing after you pay your lawyer. I worked for the power company for over 30 years. I saw them force right aways onto many people who didn't want them. Nevers saw a single case where the power company lost and that's a private business. You would be fighting the government officials that would rule on the power company.

A local guy did fight the power company and won, when they were widening the highway. Drive north from my place towards Kalispell, and you will see where the power lines make a jog around the front of the Cycle Haus property.

[popper]

Google Leonard, KS for a well done one. Hamilton,Mo has a poor one (actually several). Don't know the KS rules but Tx a city cannot eminent domain county land. They can annex it. County can take the land if a county 'water/sewage' district (tx calls them MUD) provides city service.

[TCLouis]

Have not read all responses yet, but will add this . . .

Is anyonne planning a subdivision/commercial/industrial development in that area?

[Lloyd Smale]

Im sure a few win but at what cost? Id also venture to guess that he didn't win just because he didn't want to give up his land. Id bet he proved some environmental issue was at stake.
A local guy did fight the power company and won, when they were widening the highway. Drive north from my place towards Kalispell, and you will see where the power lines make a jog around the front of the Cycle Haus property.

[rancher1913]

i'd bet your right lloyd, and I'd also bet when those existing poles that feed that guys house finally rott out they will not be replaced and the guy will have no power service to his property. the local REA wants me to drop service to my remote pasture because I am the only one on it for about 6 miles of line that they hate to maintain.

[wills]

The first reported eminent domain case involved Naboths Vineyard. Noboth decided to contest the taking, as distinguished from contesting value.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+21&version=KJV

Contesting the take can also be time consuming. Here is a case we have been watching since 2007.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-supreme-court/1764658.html

Incidentally, it is "Eminent Domain".

[wills]

/\ This is the key point

When it comes to eminent domain the question is not "can the government take the land for public use". The answer to that question is almost always - "Yes, the government CAN take land for public use". That's not where the fight is.

The real question is: "what is fair market value for what they are actually taking"? You have a better chance of winning that battle or at least improving your outcome if you're smart.

That is what most people litigate.

[waksupi]

Im sure a few win but at what cost? Id also venture to guess that he didn't win just because he didn't want to give up his land. Id bet he proved some environmental issue was at stake.

Ha! Scotty's place IS an environmental concern. He has a motorcycle junk yard, and piles of odd ball stuff piled all over. He sure doesn't have a lot of money, I don't know how he went about it. He may have just scared them out of the idea, he's a bit spooky.

[David2011]

Can the government take land for public use ? = YES
Can you stop them from taking that land for public use? = NO
Is the government required to compensate you for the land they take? = YES
Does the government have to give you "fair market value" for the land they take? = YES
Is "fair market value" sometimes disputed and settled by the courts? = YES


A big question in my mind here is if this is for the public good or for the benefit of a single company. If for a single company then imminent domain is a more difficult justification.


been down this road not to long ago. city wanted to expand the airport and take some land from one of my neighbors and the air space from everybody within a 5 mile radius. we were successful in stopping the taking of the air space and the neighbor almost bankrupted himself trying to stop the taking of his land, he lost, they took it.


Um, it makes a good story but they cannot take airspace away from individuals because they can't take away what was never theirs. The FAA claims that all airspace is under FAA authority and that no airspace is the domain of individuals. Individuals do not own or have private access even one foot of airspace above their property according to the FAA. Whether I agree that it should be that way is a separate discussion. (I do not agree BTW.) This has been a hot topic of discussion on RCGroups.com and throughout the RC community as new regulations and laws are being imposed on model aircraft operators. This isn't just department store toys. Lots of radio control flyers have many thousands of dollars invested in a single airplane. Think $5000 or more for a jet turbine engine in an airframe worth twice that, for a single engine jet. What the FAA is attempting to take away from modelers is access to the publicly owned airspace more than 400' above ground level. The consequence is that it renders sailplanes and large, expensive models useless.