.38 S&W is prudent gunsmith’s choice to restore antique rook rifles.

[Outpost75]

A condensation of Ed Harris article from The Fouling Shot - cross-posted by permission:

The attraction of the British "Rook Rifle" concept is that medium-bore cartridges, similar to black powder revolver cartridges, when fired from a rifle, are quiet. They make little more noise than standard velocity .22 LR, but they hit harder than a .22, making them more useful for dispatching larger small game animals or farm varmints such as coyotes or groundhogs.

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The small powder capacity of the similar .38 S&W cartridge is an advantage for this purpose. Powder positioning is not an issue affecting ballistic uniformity, which it can be in the longer .38 Special case. New .38 S&W brass and factory ammunition are readily available. No factory +P or jacketed loads are produced in this caliber, so the .38 S&W is the prudent gunsmith’s choice to safely restore black powder action rook rifles to service. It is also historically appropriate, because it dates from the same era as the long-obsolete .380 Rook and .360 No. 5 British rook rifle rounds we would use it to replace.

There is a very modest velocity gain when the .38 S&W cartridge is fired from a rifle, but its potential for producing a supersonic, “cracking loud” report is very limited. This is because the expansion ratio of a longer rifle barrel exceeds the limitations of its tiny powder charge for adiabatic expansion. The result is that standard-pressure, smokeless .38 S&W revolver loads, at less than 14,000 psi, using fast-burning powders like Bullseye, produce ballistics from a rifle very much like the .38 Special fired from a 6-inch target revolver. I say, that is just right for "rural-agricultural" and "suburban pot shooting."

A wide-flat-nose or wadcutter at subsonic velocity performs on of proportion to its kinetic energy. A .38 Special wadcutter deposits about the same energy into a 20cm gelatin block before exiting that .45 ACP hardball does. Modern .38 S&W hand loads assembled with large meplat 190-grain cast bullets with about 2 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup do likewise. No expansion occurs at these velocities, but the straight-through penetration is simply astounding. In the 1880s the .380 Rook and .360 No. 5 were used for culling "park deer" and if pressed to shooting coyotes and such the .38 beats any .22 rimfire in spades!

I had no interest in trying to see how "powerful" a load I can assemble for my .38 S&W Rook Rifle. I have a .357 rifle which scratches that itch. The objective from the beginning was to enjoy a mild, small capacity cartridge producing ballistics almost like a large-caliber air rifle, exploiting a heavy, blunt, slow bullet, ideally "silent without suppressor" at 600-700 fps and under NO cirsumstances over 900 fps, which would produce low noise, while being hard hitting, equal to full-charge .38 Special from a 6-inch revolver and accurate out to 50 yards.

In particular, I wanted to explore the possibility of using as heavy a bullet as could be launched at the lowest velocity which would reliably exit the barrel, which we found to be about 600 fps with soft lead, 190-grain FN bullet from the rifle and 500 fps from a 5" S&W Victory revolver.


A 1:10" twist 9mm barrel ensures adequate gyroscopic stability with 190-gr. bullets at <700 fps.
In previous extensive testing of a .38 Special barrel to fit this action, having a 1:20" twist, I found it very accurate with standard pressure as well as +P 110-158-grain revolver loads. Heavier bullets over 180-grains had to be driven about 1050 +/- 30 fps to be accurate and stable, resulting in a LOUDER gun, which I DIDN'T want, if the obective was to dispatch both small furry and hooved edible critters in the garden, without disturbing the neighbors.

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The “object of my desire” was a handy, short rifle, less than 36” long, less than 5 pounds. The result is both stealthy-quiet and "hard-enough" hitting. John Taylor turned down and fitted a Green Mountain "Gunsmith Special" 9mm barrel and chambered it with a Manson .38 S&W "Rook Rifle" reamer having a 3 degrees Basic forcing cone of .363" major diameter at the case mouth. It engraves the noses of either the 36-187H or 36-190T Accurate bullets upon chambering, just like Eley Tenex chambered a Winchester 52.

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While it is true that firing a heavy, "fat" .362 lead bullet raises pressure a bit when being squeezed down into a 9mm barrel, the resultant pressure-rise is well within the design limits of our “Infamous Bunny Gun.”

Other barrels I have for it chambered in .38 Special +P and .45 ACP operate nicely at 20,000 psi or so. Testing of .38 S&W heavy-bullet loads has substantiated that normal revolver loads squirting soft lead .38 S&W slugs down a 9mm barrel are mild, extract easily and are accurate. The Manson .38 S&W Rook Rifle reamer provides a gradual forcing cone into the origin of rifling, and has proven highly satisfactory with both factory .38 S&W ammo and standard-pressure, heavy-bullet handloads. Fired cases are lightly smoked, primers are round, and a clean burn indicates efficient use of the tiny 2-grain powder charge. Charges which have proven safe and accurate in the rook rifle, S&W Victory Model and S&W Model 32-1 Terrier are 2 grains of TiteGroup or Bullseye with either Accurate 36-187H or 190T bullets or 2.5 grains of Bullseye, WST, or 452AA with the 36-151H, 36-155D or 36-159H.

Factory .38 S&W 146-grain LRN gives 850-900 fps in a 20-inch rifle vs. 650-700 in a 5" revolver.


My "Lettuce Protector" was built on a pre-war H&R .44/12mm shotgun frame. These are a simple rebounding-hammer break-open design, without transfer bar, made from the 1890s until just before WW2. Before 1900 these guns were chambered for the .44 Game Getter (.44-40) shot cartridge. Guns produced after WW1 are marked either .44/12mm or .44/.410, being chambered for the Eley Two-Inch cartridge. It is common for these old guns to be found, having been rechambered for American 2-1/2" or 3" shells.

My Bunny Gun pictured is 34-1/2 inches long and weighs 4-1/2 pounds. I have found it best to utilize an "optimum trajectory" in which the maximum bullet rise over its 100 yard useful trajectory does not exceed about 3 inches. I take a 6:00 hold on a typical small game animal until the front sight bead about covers the critter, and then if it does, I just blot him out and shoot.

With the .38 S&W cartridge this works out to a 75 yard zero and a 90-yard "point blank" range, at which the path of the trajectory drops about 3" below line of sight. The maximum useful range where rifle velocity decays to about the same level as a revolver near the muzzle is 150 yards, with 36 inches of drop, about the height of an Army E silhouette if you must discourage or repel marauding, Wild Indians, Sasquatch, or Zombies invading your garden vegetable patch. Please don't shoot The Moth Man, as latest intel here says he's really a CIA Black op, but is supposed to be "friendly."

Ten-shot groups with .38 S&W factory loads and simple open sights average 3" at 50 yards, and 6" at 100 yards. This is about the same as I do with an open-sighted lever-action cowboy rifle firing .38 Specials. Entirely adequate for making "gong music" on the steel targets and scaring Mr.Wabbit.

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The lightest charge I can measure, 1.7 grs. of Bullseye using RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #00, with Accurate 36-190T exits the 20 inch barrel every time, at 600 fps, and from the 5" S&W Victory at 500. They are quiet enough to shoot without ear protection and hit 3" below the front sight at 50 yards, making 3" ten-shot groups. Raising the open sight elevator to the second elevator step centers the group at 50 yards. Using the third step and blotting out the 12" gong at 100 yards I ran ten straight hits, and again on the full sized “E” silhouette framing the shoulders with the front sight. The slow bullets whacking the steel targets make more noise than the gun going off!

For those wanting to build their own "American Rook Rifle" which can also use factory loads and for which a companion revolver is affordable and readily available, the .38 S&W cartridge represents absolute “Cat Sneeze Perfection!”

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[ajjohns]

Bravo! I have a S&W third model in this dandy little round, something like this would be a great companion.

[Outpost75]

Bravo! I have a S&W third model in this dandy little round, something like this would be a great companion.

All it takes is money...

But if you already have a donor .410 shotgun action, total cost is less than a new .38 Special lever-action Cowboy rifle.

[rking22]

Thanks for posting, I love the little rifles! I think I may begin t he search for an original, again :bigsmyl2:

[Outpost75]

Thanks for posting, I love the little rifles! I think I may begin t he search for an original, again :bigsmyl2:

Here are a few you can drool over, a Cogwell & Harrison .380 Rook, and an Army & Navy .320 relined to .32 S&W Long.

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[dverna]

Neat article. Just wondering...

Why not do the rifle in .38 Spl and use a 1 in 10 twist barrel? I had a M52 S&W with a sleeved Douglas 1-10 barrel about 45 years ago and it shot very well...2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards

The .38 Spl would be an advantage for those who already load for it and have companion revolvers. The concern expressed "Powder positioning is not an issue affecting ballistic uniformity, which it can be in the longer .38 Special case." is rather silly when 2.7 gr target .38 Spl loads shoot so accurately.

Again, good post on an interesting topic.

[sharps4590]

That's pretty cool. I expect the 38 S&W is close enough to the 360 Rook that the difference is meaningless in performance.

I had my Jeffrey Champion relined then chambered to the 25-20 WCF. The rifle had a sewer pipe for a bore and had already been re-chambered to 25-20. The original 255 Jeffrey was significantly out of my comfort zone when everything was priced for a correct .251 liner, having 255 Jeffrey reamers ground and go/no go gauges. The 25-20 easily loads to 255 Jeffrey ballistics and with the new liner is a tack driver.

The little rifles are a hoot!!! Just wish there was more rabbits around here.

[Outpost75]

Neat article. Just wondering...

Why not do the rifle in .38 Spl and use a 1 in 10 twist barrel? I had a M52 S&W with a sleeved Douglas 1-10 barrel about 45 years ago and it shot very well...2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards

The .38 Spl would be an advantage for those who already load for it and have companion revolvers. The concern expressed "Powder positioning is not an issue affecting ballistic uniformity, which it can be in the longer .38 Special case." is rather silly when 2.7 gr target .38 Spl loads shoot so accurately.

Again, good post on an interesting topic.

The .38 Special case is too large to work efficiently with VERY small powder charges giving <700 fps in the rifle. Factory .38 Special wadcutters produce about 900 fps from a rifle barrel. To get to minimum bore exit ~600 fps the charge must then be reduced by about half. In the .38 Special you simply cannot get uniform velocities, with Sds <1% of sample mean below about 2.4 grains of Bullseye with a flush-wadcutter unless you position the charge base-tap before firing.

I wanted the .38 S&W case to reduce free airspace. I also wanted to use a cartridge in which there were no jacketed or +P loads, so as to be suitable for older black powder actions to avoid inadvertent mistakes in ammo. I also wanted a cartridge case and brass which was easily obtained and for which both factory loads and empty brass were readily available.

The .38 S&W presses all of those buttons.

I already had a .38 Special barrel for this action. For the reasons explained I wanted a smaller case which did what I wanted and could do so with factory loads.

Firing .38 wadcutter was close, but the common GM 1:20" barrel is not sub 2" much beyond 50 yards except with full-charge loads. Had I started on my .38 Special rifle with a 1:10" twist barrel it may have done what I wanted, but no such barrel was available to me at the time and there was still the excess free airspace issue. MUCH different situation exists in a pistol or revolver vs. longer rifle barrel, bore drag, avoiding bullet-in-bore malfunctions, etc.

Agree that for most people a .38 Special with 10" twist barrel and .38 AMU type chamber set up for wadcutters may make more sense in a strong action where you don't have to worry about some Toff who is all mouth and no trousers, after you are gone putting a +P SD load into a black powder action. While my particular action is strong enough, antique Brit rook rifle actions are not. We used my rifle to prove initial concept, but having a well-known solution for restoring tiny antique BP rifles to service was the design intent and .38 S&W does it better, for the reasons stated.

For me there is no problem in finding companion .38 S&W revolvers, other than making a choice, as I have as many of those as .38 Specials.

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[Jack Stanley]

Thanks for the post , I really enjoyed it . Rifles like that are lots of fun to shoot . I had a H&R shotgun with the small firing pin chambered in .357 . Could have done .38 just as easy since I've never fired a .357 from it yet , lots of .38 ammo though .....................

Jack

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the post , I really enjoyed it . Rifles like that are lots of fun to shoot . I had a H&R shotgun with the small firing pin chambered in .357 . Could have done .38 just as easy since I've never fired a .357 from it yet , lots of .38 ammo though .....................

Jack

Jack,

My pleasure. Could we perhaps have met at Camp Perry? Were you active in service rifle competition in the 1970s to early 1980s? I would have been on the Navy Atlantic Fleet Team 1971-74. Prior to that VA State Civilian and VA Tech Cadet. Afterwards on NRA Staff.

[Shawlerbrook]

Very interesting and appealing project. Would love a 38 S&W companion for my S&W revolver. Now need to find a SS 410 donor.
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[ajjohns]

All it takes is money...

But if you already have a donor .410 shotgun action, total cost is less than a new .38 Special lever-action Cowboy rifle.

True, just need a little time. I'm in the middle of fixing up a H&A 932, reamed to 32 S&W long. It goes with my Ruger single six 32.
I have a Savage 219, maybe need to find a donor barrel to work with and make it happen.

[Bigslug]

We've sorta been down this road on a couple of Webley threads, but my thought has been that the .38 Short Colt might have some utility here, since it's essentially the same thing with the more common .357/.358" bullet diameter and uses the same size case head as the .38 Special and .357 Magnum. In theory, one could be annealing and cutting down their old Special cases that have cracked at the mouth from too much resizing. Not really an issue for those of us casting and ordering custom molds, or are running a .38S&W already, but if such a thing were to go commerical. . .

[Shawlerbrook]

Outpost, love your lettuce protector. Besides the simplicity and trim design of your older donor 410, are there any drawbacks if using a more commonly available modern 410 with transfer bar ?

[Outpost75]

Outpost, love your lettuce protector. Besides the simplicity and trim design of your older donor 410, are there any drawbacks if using a more commonly available modern 410 with transfer bar ?

Most modern guns are much heavier. The Yildiz and Midland single-shots are tiny and lend themselves to building a 4 pound gun.

The transfer bar mechanism is much safer, if you can find a very light donor gun that fits the bill.

[Jniedbalski]

This is a very good post. It is so good I want to find me a old 410 and make me a 38 special and a 32 h&r mag or 32 long. I would like a 357 maximum also so many choices so little money. The maximum barrel sounds really but the 32 long or the 38 special for me would be more practical. Thanks again for the great post

[Jniedbalski]

This is a very good post. It is so good I want to find me a old 410 and make me a 38 special and a 32 h&r mag or 32 long. I would like a 357 maximum also so many choices so little money. The maximum barrel sounds really but the 32 long or the 38 special for me would be more practical. Thanks again for the great post

[rking22]

If you are close to an Academy Sports, give the Ylidiz folder a look. 3.3 lbs and very nice fit and finish. If you like 410s, buy two so you dont have to make a 2nd trip! I need to see what can be done with the trigger, not terrible but not a rifle trigger either.

[JWFilips]

I have yet to find anyone to cut a true 38 S&W chamber in a rifle: 38 special or 357 mag yes! ....but no one that cuts a true 38 S&W
If any on has a lead please post it!

[Jniedbalski]

Is the 20 gauge frame of the ylidiz at acadamy bigger than the 410 frame? I would rather have a 20 gauge barrel and then take a barrel and have it fitted on this frame., just because I really like the 20 gauge

[Jniedbalski]

It might be cheaper to buy two guns than have a barrel fitted don’t know

[Outpost75]

This is a very good post. It is so good I want to find me a old 410 and make me a 38 special and a 32 h&r mag or 32 long. I would like a 357 maximum also so many choices so little money. The maximum barrel sounds really but the 32 long or the 38 special for me would be more practical. Thanks again for the great post

I would NOT put a .357 Max. on an iron shotgun action! Of the several barrels I've had John Taylor do for me on my pre-WW2 H&R frames, none of the cartridges substantially exceed 20,000 psi. The .32 H&R Mag., .38 Special +P, .44-40, .45 Colt and .45 ACP are all fine. Max. is not recommended. You will also want to have the firing pin bushed.

[rking22]

The only single barrel Yildiz that I am awzre of, are 12ga and the sweet little 410. I like 20ga as well and hope they make one soon, but the 410 is the one for a "lettuce protector" supreme! The 12 ga is much larger, about 5 lbs. Light for a 12 bigger than needed for revisiting the "Rook Rifle" concept.

[Outpost75]

I have yet to find anyone to cut a true 38 S&W chamber in a rifle: 38 special or 357 mag yes! ....but no one that cuts a true 38 S&W
If any on has a lead please post it!

PM me your email address and I can send you the chamber print from Dave Manson. Unable to attach a .pdf here

[Jniedbalski]

I would only do the maximum on a 357 single shot rifle or a h&r made for rifle use.?If ever Henry ever builds one in 357 I will look at them. The cva hunter looks like a decent rifle but only a few calibers.

[crankycalico]

well there is that one company that makes the chamber inserts that makes the full size insert barrels for shotguns.

Sure it may not be as nifty as having a fixed liner, but being able to swap out whenever you wanted IS a good option.

[rfd]

another reason and use for a henry h015-357mag and cat sneeze .38spl loads. :)

[John Taylor]

I have yet to find anyone to cut a true 38 S&W chamber in a rifle: 38 special or 357 mag yes! ....but no one that cuts a true 38 S&W
If any on has a lead please post it!

Outpost 75 had a special reamer made for the job. It is at my shop now. I may have to make up one for myself now. His new 10X25 is also interesting and makes a fun little rifle.

[JWFilips]

John,
Just out of curiosity : Can a New England Firearms .223 Barrel be re-chambered and rebored to 38 S&W cartridge?

[John Taylor]

John,
Just out of curiosity : Can a New England Firearms .223 Barrel be re-chambered and rebored to 38 S&W cartridge?

It may be possible but I have not had much luck getting a smooth cut rifling on some of the late model barrels. I usually just install a new barrel or line the old barrel. Some barrels will cut very good and other don't, I never know until I start cutting.

[tbx-4]

my thought has been that the .38 Short Colt might have some utility here, since it's essentially the same thing with the more common .357/.358" bullet diameter and uses the same size case head as the .38 Special and .357 Magnum. In theory, one could be annealing and cutting down their old Special cases. . .

I like this idea, a rook rifle in .38 Short Colt. I have plenty of .38 Spl brass and an extra 20" .357 rifle barrel. All I need is a donor 410.

But the question is where can one get a .38 SC finish reamer?

Edit to say I found Pacific Tool lists a .38 SC reamer for $219.50! Ouch!
Hoping Dave Manson can make one but can't get through on the phone.

[John Taylor]

I like this idea, a rook rifle in .38 Short Colt. I have plenty of .38 Spl brass and an extra 20" .357 rifle barrel. All I need is a donor 410.

But the question is where can one get a .38 SC finish reamer?

Edit to say I found Pacific Tool lists a .38 SC reamer for $219.50! Ouch!
Hoping Dave Manson can make one but can't get through on the phone.

Use a standard 38 Special or 357 reamer and stop short, cut the rim separate. I don't have a 38 special reamer but I do have a NRA long taper throat 357 that gets used for both.

[tbx-4]

Use a standard 38 Special or 357 reamer and stop short, cut the rim separate. I don't have a 38 special reamer but I do have a NRA long taper throat 357 that gets used for both.

I actually wondered about doing something like this but didn't know how feasible it was. So I take it there are separate rim cutters available?
And I do have a .357 mag reamer, it would be nice to get more use out of it and spread the cost out.

[John Taylor]

I actually wondered about doing something like this but didn't know how feasible it was. So I take it there are separate rim cutters available?
And I do have a .357 mag reamer, it would be nice to get more use out of it and spread the cost out.

The rim cut is done with a boring bar in the lathe.

[tbx-4]

The rim cut is done with a boring bar in the lathe.

John,
I just received a boring bar set in the mail today and thought "I could do the rim cut with this". Thanks for the confirmation! I still learn'n.

[firebyprolong]

If a guy where going to buy a 357 mag (barrel) reamer who grinds the best throat for cast? I've kind been getting a little more serious about just buying reamers lately for my assorted projects. A 38sp on a Iver 410 is one of them, just curious as to what has worked the best for others. John what is the taper on your NRA reamer?

[Outpost75]

If a guy where going to buy a 357 mag (barrel) reamer who grinds the best throat for cast? I've kind been getting a little more serious about just buying reamers lately for my assorted projects. A 38sp on a Iver 410 is one of them, just curious as to what has worked the best for others. John what is the taper on your NRA reamer?

I've been very satisfied by the .357 NRA chamber, which has the same minimum chamber body as the .357 SAAMI pressure and velocity test barrel, but with the .38 AMU throat, 1-1/2 degrees, Basic, direct from the .379" mouth diameter with no transition to a ball seat. This is the reamer which John Taylor has. It shoots both .38 Special lead and .357 lead or jacketed well and you can also seat heavy bullets out longer to increase powder capacity in a single-shot rifle.

[firebyprolong]

Thanks for the write up and the reamer advice outpost, and since I forgot to say it earlier that is one neat 38s&w!

[Drm50]

I can see the purpose of 38S&W for these old rifles. Instead of using 38S&W chamber and brass why not 38sp
short chambered and trim 38sp brass down to desired length? Seems chambering would be easier to get done and 38sp brass is avaible by truck load.

[Outpost75]

I can see the purpose of 38S&W for these old rifles. Instead of using 38S&W chamber and brass why not 38sp
short chambered and trim 38sp brass down to desired length? Seems chambering would be easier to get done and 38sp brass is avaible by truck load.

Rationale for the .38 S&W was for people wanting a safe factory load to use in the antique rifles, NOT handloading.

Also, for those of us who collect old revolvers in this caliber, having a companion rifle is a sensible choice.

.38 S&W brass and ammo is also common and plentiful.

[Drm50]

I loaded a box of 38S&W a couple months ago for a friend that inherited his dad's house gun. A H&R break top
from 60s, like new. He went to Cabelas and they wanted $38 and change for a box of 50, Rem I think. I do see where you are coming from. I've done a few 25rfs to 32short with salvaged barrels. Biggest PIA is to convert to
CF. Bought a Hopkins and Allen basket case that was labeled 25rf at action. Turned out to be 25/20 single shot.
I haven't figured out what I'm going to make out of it. Leaning 32 long if I can find barrel.

[Traffer]

Thanks for the great thread.
I have a project on the back burner... bought an old break open 12 ga receiver for making a 22 WMR test gun. I plan on reloading 22 WMR in the future. I now need one of these guns. So I will have to make a barrel for the 38 S&W and rifle it to 1/10 It won't be a vintage rook rifle but I will love it just the same.

[BAGTIC]

I would like to have a custom 38S&W but at my age and budget I have about given up. Instead I use 357 brass in a 357 chamber and simply seat the projectile deeply. In a single shot gun that does not present a problem as there are not feeding problems. It even works with .360 diameter lead balls (69grain) for small game. The RB seated directly on 4 grains of RD works fine. I prefer Red Dot because it is so bulky that low loading density has never been a problem.

[Cheshire Dave]

How well do you think a Stevens 101 44 shot gun would work? With the takedown Barrel it seems like it would be easy to make a second barrel for the gun and it's already a Centerfire. Seems like just a barrel and a separate extractor and you could keep the original 44 shot Barrel.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

Frank DeHaas' opinion was that the Model 101 would stand .38 Special "if only the very lightest loads were used". I have two, and keep looking for a .32 barrel for one to make a .32 Long Colt rifle. Personally I think that .38 is a bit risky, unless I deliberately cut the chamber short, and the brass likewise, to keep factory loads out of it. It's true that a good many 101s were rechambered to .410, and I've never seen any reports that they broke or blew up, but I'll bet they never got shot much either. The recoil in that 4 pound gun was probably a little "sharp". The extractor is a stinker to make from scratch, but you could find one from a Model 12 Marksman and trim it.

[Outpost75]

How well do you think a Stevens 101 44 shot gun would work? With the takedown Barrel it seems like it would be easy to make a second barrel for the gun and it's already a Centerfire. Seems like just a barrel and a separate extractor and you could keep the original 44 shot Barrel. Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

That should work fine. I used an old H&R .44 shotgun as a donor action for one of my Bunny Gun projects and had John make a .44-40 barrel for it and a .45 Colt. VERY happy with it. I still have the .44 shotgun barrel for it, and a .410 I have off another action also fits it. Sometimes you get lucky. Not always.

[uscra112]

Um, Outpost, the old Stevens 101 isn't a patch on that H&R for strength. It was originally a .22 rimfire action, with option for .25RF and .32RF. Just sayin. He should keep his loads very light.

[Jedman]

You have to remember that nearly all of the early Stevens rimfire rifles were mainly scaled for kids or smaller people. They were made as low priced as they could be and most will shoot loose even with today's hi speed 22 ammo. I am not saying they were junk by any means but just a low priced rifle to learn to shoot with. I don't think Stevens would ever barrel one for even the lightest 38 S&W cartridge. I have owned several of the early Stevens rifles and the main action parts like the firing pin, extractor, linkage pins, ect. are all very small and are just adequate for light 22 rf.
I have some doubts if the small mainspring arrangement on the M 101 would have enough power to fire centerfire primers ?
I have a early Stevens tip up that was a 12 ga. Shotgun that I rebarreled to 38 spl. It has a ruggedly built frame and the flat sided barrel is fitted well into the receiver and the pivot for the barrel is as close to inline with the bore as possible and that gives it strength.
That rifle is a bit heavy to call a garden gun or rook rifle but will hold up well to even 38 spl + p loads.

Jedman

[uscra112]

You hit upon the greatest weakness of the Marksman series, Jedman. The hammer is too light and the mainspring too weak. It will fire pistol primers, I know from testing, but it's not up to modern rimfire cases, which are thicker and stiffer than the copper that was still typical in 1912. Misfire rate is high, and when I tried my homemade .25 Stevens (reformed .17 HMR) it wouldn't fire them at all.

Occurs to me to mention the post-1900 Hopkins and Allen falling-block boys' rifle. It is quite up to the .38; it was sold new chambered for the .38 rimfire version. A 922 or 925 is easily converted to centerfire by making a new link.

[Ajohns]

uscra112, you think the H&A 932 is capable of handling 38 Smith and Wesson? I have one right now converted to 32 S&W long, always thought 38 would be fun. I have 38's loaded light for my third model Smith double action, they're a hoot.

[uscra112]

uscra112, you think the H&A 932 is capable of handling 38 Smith and Wesson? I have one right now converted to 32 S&W long, always thought 38 would be fun. I have 38's loaded light for my third model Smith double action, they're a hoot.

Certainly. I wouldn't go to .38 Special, because there's some +P+ ammo on the market that rivals .357 magnum, but .38 S&W, sure. What little commercial .38 SW ammo there is, (is there indeed any?), will be loaded safe for the old revolvers. I'm attaching a photo of an H&A catalog showing that there was indeed a 938 model specifically for the S&W centerfire cartridge in the 1900-1914 period. I'd have done one already, save that I have umpteen dozen other projects ahead of it.

[Jedman]

I also have a H & A model 922 rifle in 22 rf. It is sturdy enough for some low powered centerfire cartridges but mine has a good bore so it will stay a 22 LR.
The weak point in these rifles is the removable barrel, having a decently sized cross bolt that passes thru a rounded cut on the bottom of the barrel shank.
It does keep the barrel snug well but I don't know why most of the early rifles had this takedown feature ? I doubt many owners took the barrel off very often as you can clean them easily by opening the action.

Jedman

[Ajohns]

Very well then, thank you. I may just have a new project in line. Was not aware they went bigger than 32, should've did some more homework. These little gems are a nice petite arm, make fine pop guns.

[uscra112]

The selling point of the takedown was that it made it possible to pack the gun into a trunk or even a large suitcase. This was important, because back then any long-distance travel at all was done on trains. Stevens and some others also sold "bicycle rifles", takedowns that could easily be packed on a bicycle. The Model 18 Favorite even had a neat leather and canvas accessory case that hung under the upper frame bar of a full-size man's bike.

[Outpost75]

Um, Outpost, the old Stevens 101 isn't a patch on that H&R for strength. It was originally a .22 rimfire action, with option for .25RF and .32RF. Just sayin. He should keep his loads very light.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Chev. William]

I also have a H & A model 922 rifle in 22 rf. It is sturdy enough for some low powered centerfire cartridges but mine has a good bore so it will stay a 22 LR.
The weak point in these rifles is the removable barrel, having a decently sized cross bolt that passes thru a rounded cut on the bottom of the barrel shank.
It does keep the barrel snug well but I don't know why most of the early rifles had this takedown feature ? I doubt many owners took the barrel off very often as you can clean them easily by opening the action.

Jedman

Remember that most Urban Travel was by Public Transit means and a take down rifle packed in a case was much less threatening to fellow passengers.
Sport target shooting and Competitions were much more popular in the late 1890s and on into the 1920s, before the 1929 'crash' reduced everyone's spending.

Chev. William

[samari46]

I once asked Michael Petrov in Alaska about a new barrel for one of the cadet martini's. Had no plans to hot rod the cartridge and he suggested 38 special. Plenty of brass ( I have a 40mm ammo can full of 38 special brass), plenty of different bullets both cast and jacketed and no reason to bush the firing pin. I have no argument with the OP with the 38 S&W cartridge. Not very far from the 38 special. And in light of the various break open actions or really fancy english rook rifles probably a pretty good choice. I'm just using plentiful brass I have,its all once fired from ccw courses so I know its pedigree. Matter of fact swept up a lot of it when the classes were over. Mixed wadcutter and jacketed brass. And have a Douglas barrel blank with a 1x14 twist. Frank

[Chev. William]

Only partiality on topic:
A while Back I bought an old "Winchester" leather carrying case for a take down rifle off of Ebay. It was in deteriorated Condition with rotting sitching so I had a local Saddle maker go over i tan drestore it with new Sitching and leather Treatments.

It Turned out very well but it is NOT fo ra Winchester 1890 of 24 inch barrel length as it is too shor to allow the disassembled rifle to fit with the cover closed. It appears tt fit a 20 or 21 inch barreled one though.
the case is rectangular in section; with a divider to separate the Stock end part form the barrel end part, opening on one end rather than from the Long sides. 'Winchester' is 'branded' into the Leather and the closure latch has a lock built into it; so it is a 'Locking Cary Case' as originally made.

I am thinking it will make a 'neat' case for my project .25ACP converted Winchester 1890 pump rifle with it's 20 inch, lined, barrel.

Chev. William

[BigEyeBob]

I have an early Francotte martini small frame in 380 Rook that is in good condition .The action does not come apart like the later BSA martinis where the guts comes out in an inner frame .The barrel has full length top rib that is part of the barrel and nicely engraved for its full length.The stock is straight hand and checkered ,fore end is splinter type ,and checkered with horn tip.Markings on the Barrel state TAndrews ,London 380Rook.The bore has some slight pitting but is pretty good shape for its age .First job was to strip it down and clean the 120yrs or so of oil,dirt and gunk out of the action oil and reassemble then I cleaned up the stock and fore end cleaning the grime out of the checker with an old tooth brush ,then a few applications of my red oil mix rubbed in buy had to generate heat to finish the timber .I slugged the bore and this is where I got a surprize , the slug measured 362" over the grooves .mmmm 380 Rook should be 375" .So my rifle is 360 No5 .
The two cartridges are almost ldentical the 380 uses a heeled projectile where as the 360 has a inside lubed one .The person I acquired the rifle from had a mould from CBE that dropped a 378 projectile but had not made any bullets and obviously had not slugged the bore.I thought of swaging these down in a home made die , but on advice from Dave Commens from CBE ,I decided to get him to knock a new mould up for me ,so a 375 mould arrived the other day ,and Im planning to cast some of those .Ive already modified some 50x 38 special cases to load up in the future . Id rather stick to the original caliber than change it to some thing else , I load some very obscure cartridges and 360 No 5 is a fairly easy one to do.

[uscra112]

That's neat. I see that the case of the 360 Rook is longer than our .38 S&W, too. Pics would be nice.

[BigEyeBob]

That's neat. I see that the case of the 360 Rook is longer than our .38 S&W, too. Pics would be nice.

I have pics of the rifle some where on my tablet ,tried to find them to post into the post ,but ****ed if I could track them down .I will endeavour to put some up even if I have to take some more.And I messed up on the mould size its 365 "not 375"as I stated .

[BigEyeBob]

Pics of my 360No 5 rook rifle .The ugly number stamping on the barrel was done by the British police or the police here in Oz ,because the rifle had no serial number that I could find .Pity they didn't use a smaller stamp .The number has PD after it signifying Police Department ,number required for registration.Very tidy rifle for its age ,has a saftey at the top of the action which blocks the tumbler and striker ,rather than the trigger like on some Martinis . Also a cocking indicator (teardrop shaped lever on the side of the action) .The barrel and full length rib are one piece ,the rib has not been joined to the barrel afterwards . Have never seen this feature before .The 380 Rook is pretty much the 38 long colt I believe ,IIRC the 360no5 case is slightly longer by a few thousands ,.020" ,will have to check that .Unlike the later BSA small frame actions the gizzards of this action are not in an inner frame ,they are held in with screws through the frame sides ,of which the heads are locked with keeper screws .The innards come out individually and it was a challenge to get all the components lined up to reassemble it .Need more than two hands .As far as it being a Francotte action ,I maybe wrong but I have another martini of similar vintage thats almost identical with Francotte proof marks ,but in 300Sherwood ,but this one instead of having a 300 bore ,it slugs at 312 ".Any hoo I 'm going to enjoy shooting this little gem.Just need to cast some boolits and load up .

[Chev. William]

Ah yes, Lovely it truly is.

Chev. William

[Ajohns]

I don't know how fast I will get to it, but picked up a .357 barrel this week. I have access to a lathe and will be fitting to my Hopkins and Allen 932 as soon as I can. Can't wait to try it out, pics to follow.

[BigEyeBob]

I don't know how fast I will get to it, but picked up a .357 barrel this week. I have access to a lathe and will be fitting to my Hopkins and Allen 932 as soon as I can. Can't wait to try it out, pics to follow.

Ive made 100 cases from 38 special Eagle cases , acquired a CBE mould that drops a 265 " cast boolit , and ordered a set of 360 #5 dies from CH4D , Ill be casting some projectiles and loading them up soon .The dies were posted three or four days ago and I expect them here within the next two weeks , pending customs and if I have to pay tax on them . I have a new Lyman lube die for 363" so I can push them through and lube them easily . I already had a mould for 380 rook another CBE job ,378 heeled but the bore in my rifle slugs at 362" so I determined that my rifle is a 360 # 5 not 380 as it is marked . The 378 diameter boolit would be too much of a squeeze for my liking .Any way Ill report back when I get some results .

[quail4jake]

I really like the idea of the .38 S&W in a rifle. I always thought I'd like to take a Marlin 1894 full mag rifle chambered in .357 Mag and take a bit off the breach to rechamber in .38 S&W. I'm guessing the capacity at well over 20 and the fat bore microgroove barrel eats .360 sized boolits anyway...
Imagine that combined with a S&W perfected double action as backup! Now that's a steel clanging, groundhog spinnin' duo!

[Outpost75]

I really like the idea of the .38 S&W in a rifle. I always thought I'd like to take a Marlin 1894 full mag rifle chambered in .357 Mag and take a bit off the breach to rechamber in .38 S&W. I'm guessing the capacity at well over 20 and the fat bore microgroove barrel eats .360 sized boolits anyway...
Imagine that combined with a S&W perfected double action as backup! Now that's a steel clanging, groundhog spinnin' duo!

Although most people don't realize it, MANY common .38/.357 DA revolvers have chambers which are large enough on the back end to accept REMINGTON (R-P headstamp) factory .38 S&W ammo or handloads assembled in R-P .38 S&W brass so that you can use them like "shorts." Use your .38/.357 sizer with either a .38 S&W RCBS Cowboy expander and seater, or you can use a 9x18 MAK expander and seater if you already have them. A 9mm seater will work if you use a full-diameter .358" expander plug and flare brass a bit to start the .359-.360" bullets.

It also works great to use 148-grain soft swaged factory HBWC wadcutters, loading them in .38 S&W brass, seating them out long and crimping to 1.20" OAL with the same 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye you would use in .38 wadcutters at the same OAL.

This works only because Remington .38 S&W brass is smaller in diameter ahead of the rim than Starline, W-W, older Western, Rem-UMC, Kynoch or Fiocchi. None of those other .38 S&W brass will fit.

My S&W Model 940 9mm will fire R-P .38 S&W and .38 Colt New Police ammo without clips, and 9mm Para with clips. I can also use R-P headstamp .38 S&W in my S&W Model 36 (no-dash), my Model 37-1, both of my Model 12-2s, my Model 10-5, my Ruger Speed Six, and S&W Model 28-2 Highway Patrolman.

Not Camp Perry target accuracy, but fine for plinking and trapline work at close range where you don't need a heavy load.

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[BigEyeBob]

Ive made 100 cases from 38 special Eagle cases , acquired a CBE mould that drops a 265 " cast boolit , and ordered a set of 360 #5 dies from CH4D , Ill be casting some projectiles and loading them up soon .The dies were posted three or four days ago and I expect them here within the next two weeks , pending customs and if I have to pay tax on them . I have a new Lyman lube die for 363" so I can push them through and lube them easily . I already had a mould for 380 rook another CBE job ,378 heeled but the bore in my rifle slugs at 362" so I determined that my rifle is a 360 # 5 not 380 as it is marked . The 378 diameter boolit would be too much of a squeeze for my liking .Any way Ill report back when I get some results .

So I have the dies and have cast some boolits .Next is to size the boolits and load some up .I need to make a new expander for the dies ,not sure what CH4D had in mind when they made them but they seem to have made the fls die for a 357 bullet and an expander at .360" .Ill be sizing the boooits to .363 " and the expander is way too long and cant get the flaring bit near the case mouth to give a little flare .Rather than send them all the way back and suffer a long wait Ill try to mod them myself .


So I made a larger expander at .2625 " added a small flaring section just to give a tiny flare to the front edge of the case mouth . Seated a boolit to the correctbdepth and ended up with a handsome looking cartridge .Now to load some up ,Trailboss or RedDot will do the job Id reckon .

[Outpost75]

An Update...

How heavy a bullet can you shoot in a .38 S&W revolver and Rook rifle, and have it exit the barrel, be "combat accurate" and have low noise level with still good penetration adequate to shoot through a deer?

Well, we got the answer now!

259165259166

Accurate 36-240H was designed with the intent to be the heaviest plainbased bullet which would be stable at subsonic velocity when fired from a 1:16" twist of rifling in the .35 Remington, for use with a "can."

I specifically wanted to further explore the Rook Rifle and "Low Noise Blooper" load concept, seeking the lowest velocity which reliably exited a rifle barrel, about 700 fps, while using a fast-twist barrel, to ensure that the bullet would be well stablized to give the deepest possible penetration to shoot clear through any dinosaurs raiding my vegetable garden, and do so without disturbing the neighbors.

So I loaded some test rounds in .38 S&W cases with 3 grains of AutoComp. Upon chambering, the bullet nose is lightly engraved. Velocity from the 20-inch barrel at about 720 fps with a mild report like a .22LR. Penetration is amazing, zipping through EIGHT 1-gallon water jugs, straight through like a laser, with absolutely no signs of yaw, thanks to using a the 1:10" twist Green Mountain 9mm Parabellum spec. "Gunsmith Special" barrel. The fired bullet pictured was captured in a 5-gallon jug of kitty litter placed as a backtop behind the 8th water jug.

259167259168259169

I got an X-ring 25-yard group from the Lettuce Protector using simple open sights, and firing over the chronograph. I'll take it.

I also shot a few from my 5" S&W Victory Model because I wanted to see whether they keyholed in a slow revolver twist. Not exactly Camp Perry match accuracy, but "Combat-Accurate." There was one full-profile keyhole out of ten shots, but the keyholed shot would have still been on an "E" silhouette at 25 yards. Grouping was about the same as 178-grain WW2-era Mk2z FMJ. The Point of impact is quite high to the sights, as would be expected, given the heavy bullet. The 240-grain .38 S&W load with 3 grains of AutoComp gives 617 fps from the 5-inch Victory .38. It kicks like a .455! and probably hits like one too! I gotta shoot some more water jugs with this load in the revolver. Given that the bullet holes from the revolver DO show yaw, I'd bet they will likely tumble in soft targets and should be deadly at CQB distances.

[3leggedturtle]

Outpost75, that is just to cool. I was gonna try my Saeco 250gr FP's in my 38 Special Contender carbine, but have not as yet. Todd/3leg

[Outpost75]

How well do you think a Stevens 101 44 shot gun would work? With the takedown Barrel it seems like it would be easy to make a second barrel for the gun and it's already a Centerfire. Seems like just a barrel and a separate extractor and you could keep the original 44 shot Barrel.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk


That is exactly what I did..John Taylor is "da Man" who can do this for you and has my reamer!!

[junkbug]

Can that boolit be made to work in a Marlin 94 in 357 Mag, perhaps with shortened cases? Probably would still be a single load only proposition.



An Update...

How heavy a bullet can you shoot in a .38 S&W revolver and Rook rifle, and have it exit the barrel, be "combat accurate" and have low noise level with still good penetration adequate to shoot through a deer?

Well, we got the answer now!

259165259166

Accurate 36-240H was designed with the intent to be the heaviest plainbased bullet which would be stable at subsonic velocity when fired from a 1:16" twist of rifling in the .35 Remington, for use with a "can."

I specifically wanted to further explore the Rook Rifle and "Low Noise Blooper" load concept, seeking the lowest velocity which reliably exited a rifle barrel, about 700 fps, while using a fast-twist barrel, to ensure that the bullet would be well stablized to give the deepest possible penetration to shoot clear through any dinosaurs raiding my vegetable garden, and do so without disturbing the neighbors.

So I loaded some test rounds in .38 S&W cases with 3 grains of AutoComp. Upon chambering, the bullet nose is lightly engraved. Velocity from the 20-inch barrel at about 720 fps with a mild report like a .22LR. Penetration is amazing, zipping through EIGHT 1-gallon water jugs, straight through like a laser, with absolutely no signs of yaw, thanks to using a the 1:10" twist Green Mountain 9mm Parabellum spec. "Gunsmith Special" barrel. The fired bullet pictured was captured in a 5-gallon jug of kitty litter placed as a backtop behind the 8th water jug.

259167259168259169

I got an X-ring 25-yard group from the Lettuce Protector using simple open sights, and firing over the chronograph. I'll take it.

I also shot a few from my 5" S&W Victory Model because I wanted to see whether they keyholed in a slow revolver twist. Not exactly Camp Perry match accuracy, but "Combat-Accurate." There was one full-profile keyhole out of ten shots, but the keyholed shot would have still been on an "E" silhouette at 25 yards. Grouping was about the same as 178-grain WW2-era Mk2z FMJ. The Point of impact is quite high to the sights, as would be expected, given the heavy bullet. The 240-grain .38 S&W load with 3 grains of AutoComp gives 617 fps from the 5-inch Victory .38. It kicks like a .455! and probably hits like one too! I gotta shoot some more water jugs with this load in the revolver. Given that the bullet holes from the revolver DO show yaw, I'd bet they will likely tumble in soft targets and should be deadly at CQB distances.

[bruce drake]

I inserted and epoxied a 16" 9mm barrel blank turned to fit the inside of the 12 gauge shotgun barrel on an old Iver Johnson frame and then cut the chamber for a 38-44 Bain & Davis. eventually, I will make an extractor for the smaller diamter case but for now, a smallflat-bladed screwdriver I have in the butt of the shotgun works for when my fingernails can't pop the empty case out. I've trimmed the shotgun barrel down and mounted a scope rail on top for a light single-shot stalking rifle. 90gr and 124gr 9mm cast lead bullets make great rabbit loads and if I want to use it for deer, heavier bullets in 38 caliber can be used for more impact. I'm not going to try to replicate a 35 Remington with this cartridge but it does make use of the large number of 44 Magnum cases I find each year at the range prior to deer season without my having to invest in another caliber of bullet molds.

And if I hadn't used the old Iver johnson singleshot, it would have sat in my local gunshop's bargain barrel until he got tired of seeing it and destroyed it and took it off his books. total invested...under $150 because the dies were a bargain on Ebay for $35.

[Outpost75]

Can that boolit be made to work in a Marlin 94 in 357 Mag, perhaps with shortened cases? Probably would still be a single load only proposition.

Either use .38 Long Colt brass in the .357 magnum or trim .38 Special cases 0.95" to stay within 1.60" OAL to feed from magazine.

[bruce drake]

John Taylot is on my short list for new projects once I get a few other projects in line. I've been looking for an excuse for a singleshot rimmed 300BLK built off a 357 Magnum case for a while.

Bruce

[junkbug]

Thanks!

[Outpost75]

Have ordered a 36-220H mold from Accurate with same 0.6" nose length, but shorter overall length to better stabilize in the S&W Victory Model .380-200 revolvers, and also reducing seating depth to reduce pressure. This 215-220 grain flatnosed bullet in COWW will give 1.40" overall cartridge length in .38 S&W brass, and produce about 620 fps from a 5-inch barrel with 2.5 grains of Bullseye or 3.0 grains of AutoComp.

259504

[Mk42gunner]

On the Stevens Model 101 .44Shot gun; the one I have has a 2" deep chamber, not that 2" .410 shells are readily available these days. I have trimmed a few .444 Marlin cases to fit the chamber but will load them with around 140 grains of shot, at least to start.

It is a very tiny gun to be trying a 2" .410 from, at least with my face on the stock.

The gun is destined to be either a .22 Ladybug rifle or a .32 S&W Long bunnygun.

So many projects, so little time.

Robert

[BAGTIC]

For years I have been shooting round balls in an H&R single shot .357Magnum. The problem of 'too much' case capacity is solved by seating the projectile very deep. The same should be true when seating a long heavy bullet in the longer case. Seat the bullet so that the case capacity remaining under the bullet will be the same as the case capacity for the shorter .38 S&W. That is an advantage of single shot guns. One does not need to concern oneself with magazines or feeding configurations.

[curdog007]

Some of the 19th century English ammunition companies produced ammunition like this, with a ball seated deeply on a reduced load of black powder. The case would be crimped right above the ball. I have seen examples in .360 x 2 1/4" BPE.

[Ajohns]

I had to bring this old thread up. Because I really like it.
In the last couple years, I've been accumulating stuff. Reloading components, and a few rifles. Some for parts, one ready to go.
Soon I'll post some pictures.
But I finally found a couple of good Hopkins and Allen singles of the 9 series. One in 38 S&W, one in 32 Long Rimfire. They need some work, but the barrels are good. My previous 32's, the barrels were too far gone. This 32 is only getting a longer block link, make it centerfire. Lastly, I found a good mini Martini in 380 Long. This one to go along with the components I've gathered for my 1896 Colt Double Action in 38 Long Colt.
I'm really looking forward to this.
As fall is coming, I will have some time to get some of this stuff rolling. Be starting with a lot of bore cleaning of the H&A's, then slugging them. I believe the Martini should only need a cleaning, probably slug it also to make sure the boolits I have will be ok.

[uscra112]

You found a "9xx" Hopkins & Allen in .38 centerfire? I would have said they were only made for rimfire. Pics please. That's a trophy find.

Moving the breechblock to make a centerfire interferes with the motion of the extractor when the action is opened. My 932 with the lengthened link needs a tool or a very strong fingernail to remove the spent case, because the rim barely clears the chamber. I wish I'd modified a breechblock instead. Not that I have spare breechblocks just lying around.

[Ajohns]

I did. As said, it needs work. But the barrel looks to be ok with some cleaning. Wood is ok, receiver guts need some work and parts. For the research I've done, it should be the 938 model, 38 S&W. Though I'm not sure I saw that on the gun, just 38 stamped on the top of the barrel. The block is positioned for centerfire.
For the problem you speak of, the rimfire block I'd used before, from another gun of mine (932), I put it in the mill and machined a bit off the top. Not to make it square, but take some of it away to clear extractors.
Long story, I was trying to make a rifle the best I could out of parts I had, and thought worked the best. The skinny 9oclock one didn't work very good at all. And a 6oclock extractor won't clear if converted to centerfire. Mind you these pieces that are modified come from pretty spent rifles I've got my hands on for parts. That M&H 932 I showed a few months back was a reblued job, but the barrel was about a smooth bore. It is being set aside for a maybe liner job. I doubt I will mess with it otherwise because of the brand name.
As it goes, I will get some pics on here sometime next week. And later the mini martini when it arrives.

[beshears]

I have a H&A small action chambered in 32-20. Marked Murdock.

[uscra112]

Did some catalog reading this morning. In one of the H&A reprints I got from Cornell Publishing -(plug, plug)- it does indeed show the 938 as using the centerfire .38 S&W cartridge. Neat.

[barrabruce]

Came across a Stevens 0.410 12mm single shot. It said 3" shells I think.
Couldn’t find a model. Seemed well covered in patina but the trigger and hammer seemed fine.
It has a take down screw at the pivot point and was tight. Probably because it had a 2 or three threads extending past the action.
It was very skinny for a 410 action and sort of deeper than normal very small fore end and long barrell.
The hammer obscured the barrel when in the fired position.
Had a thumb shotgun type lever on the tang to open it.
I was wondering if this could be a candidate for a lettuce protector.
I was wondering if it would be safe to fire 3" 410 shells in it or formed brass ones as well.
Never seen one before.

[uscra112]

At first I thought you might have a Model 101, but the shotgun style action-opening lever defeats that idea. Not at all savvy about Stevens shotguns, so I won't comment further until I do some reading. If it's marked for 3" shells I suppose they would be OK.

[Mk42gunner]

I'd be cautious with the Stevens .410/12mm. reason is the 3" .410 didn't come out until 1933 with the Winchester Model 42. It is very simple for just about anyone to run a 3" chamber reamer into a break action gun, whether it should be done or not.

On another note, my Model 101 is now destined to become a .25 ACP rifle, thanks to a rifle length liner and a purchase of about a quart of bullets (>2,100). Debating how long to make the barrel right now.

Robert

[uscra112]

Well, Stevens(Savage) is still making single-barrel, breakopen, hammer-fired .410s, so it's entirely possible that the OP's was made after 1933.

[barrabruce]

I think it is pretty old.
I was wondering if it was reamed out or not.
I will contact the seller and maybe they can send me some pictures.
Thanks for the effort and help.

[uscra112]

@Mk42gunner: I'd keep it to the legal minimum length. That tiny cartridge won't hold much powder, and a short barrel will be much quicker for snap shots in the woods. Only thing you lose is sight radius.

[Outpost75]

@Mk42gunner: I'd keep it to the legal minimum length. That tiny cartridge won't hold much powder, and a short barrel will be much quicker for snap shots in the woods. Only thing you lose is sight radius.

With a barrel shorter than 20 inches report is very MUCH louder.

In 20 inch barrel report is like standard velocity .22 LR.

In barrel longer than 24 inches it's hardly louder than an air rifle. No "can" is needed.

240-grain flat-nosed bullet at 720 fps with 3 grains of AutoComp is well stabilized in 10-inch twist 9mm barrel and drills through EIGHT gallon water jugs like a laser with no tumbling.

My rifle with 20-inch barrel is 34-1/2 inches overall and weighs 4.5 pounds.

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[uscra112]

What's your load for that .25 ACP rifle, Outpost?

Oh, you're still talking about the .38 S&W. I was responding the Mk42gunner's plan for a .25ACP barrel on a Stevens 101 action.

FWIW I've got a 20" .25 Stevens barrel on a 101 frame, and it's about the same noise as a .22 SV, when loaded to the same MV. Load is 1.7 of Bullseye with a 65 grain bullet, using crunched-down Hornet brass.

[Mk42gunner]

I think I'm going to install the liner and check the balance before deciding. The .44 barrel is ~26" long same as the liner (within ¼"). Adding a 7/16 tube with a .251" hole through it will change the balance of the gun, how much I don't know.

I do like longer barrels as a general trend, so maybe leave it full length? Quieter is better too.

Still debating a 35-40 grain boolit or going the heavy route with a something around 65 grains. I basically want a .25 for .22 LR jobs. Probably try both and go with the one that shoots best.

Robert

[Ajohns]

I took some pics and took the gun all apart. The receiver is in tough shape, as the mortise for the block is waaaay out. The block measures the same as any, but something has gone on here.
The block is a true centerfire block, the pin is up a little higher in it than the rimfire model. But the barrel cleaned up ok. Have to slug soon, but just a quick caliper measurement, I'm assuming it will be around .362. And as for the chamber, it seems big. It measures about .008 over normal of around .386.
It would not chamber my wadcutter load the way I do it, being the same overall length of a factory round. It's about maybe .060 short of fully chambering.
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So, there's going to be some investigating as to making this one a nice shooter. Hoping it turns out ok.

[uscra112]

Key question is: What is headspace? That receiver is just malleable iron - yield point no better than mild steel. Could the receiver be stretched?

[Ajohns]

It maybe. It seems large in every part of the mortise. I will not use it.
I have already put the parts in another six oclock extractor receiver. Though it needs an extractor, which I will make. The gun did not have one in it. I tried one from a 32, but hence too long because of the rim diameter difference. The barrel cleaned up pretty good, about as good as one could expect.
As far as headspace, the rim machined area is good. The rounds fit flush, and it's block in the "other" receiver is tight. Though that chamber diameter has me a little concerned. Will ahve to try and see what a fired case looks like.
I don't want to swing away from Outposts original topic, but I am hoping to be able to have this rifle running soon. An extractor and slugging will be in order and then to load rounds to try.

[ndnchf]

I just started working on a similar project - a #2 Remington rolling block, originally 38 rimfire. I've swapped in a centerfire block and been shooting what is essentially .38 Colt. But previous owners shot a lot of 38 short rimfires in it, resulting in pitting at the front of the chamber. This makes it really hard to extract the 38 Colt brass. I have to knock them out with a rod. So, I made up some .38 Short Colt brass and it extracts fine. The bore is worn and pitted ahead of the chamber, but pretty good further down to the muzzle. I've been using Old West's 150gr heel bullets that run about .375" OD. Barrel groove size is .371". They shot pretty well with the longer case, but now I'm going to use the short case. Today, I tried 9.5gr of Reloader 7 in the short case. That is near a full case. It gave an average of 589fps out of the 26" barrel. I'd like to get up around 750-800 fps max.

Thoughts on powders/load to start with?

[uscra112]

Well, 1680 is next up my speed ladder from RL7, but not by a lot. Then 4227.

I'd probably be trying 2400 or Blue Dot, about 4-5 grains to start. Mostly because I've got plenty of both in stock, and very little if any 4227.

I'm only guesstimating. My boilerplate Quickload model thinks your RL7 load is 143% of case capacity even with your heeled bullet.

[ndnchf]

I have plenty of 4227 and 2400. For reference, these cases are .755" long, the heel goes in .150". I've used 2400 in other vintage small cases. It generally works well, despite leaving a fair amount of unburned powder. I haven't done much with 4227.

Its odd that your quickload model for RL7 is so out of whack. Not sure what to make of that.

[uscra112]

I just tried it again, using the boilerplate for .38 S&W instead of short Colt. Still haywire. Need to know the exact case capacity in grains of water. I'm thinking their default is less than what you actually have.

[ndnchf]

I measured water in a just fired Remigton .38 SC case. It came in at 13.9gr of water. There could be a slight variation from the shortened Starline .38 LC that was cut to the same length. Those are what I loaded the 9.5gr of RL7 in. But they should be very close.

[uscra112]

That helps. QL wanted to make it 11.0 grains.

Now your RL7 load is only slightly compressed, and QL suggests 5 grains of 2400 and 7 of 4227.

Still a SWAG, but worth a try. Neither one calculates to more psi than your RL7 load., so you'd have room to grow.

[ndnchf]

Great - that gives me a starting point. Thanks !

[barrabruce]

Sorry I haven’t got back to you’s on this thread but the gun has been sold.
Things have taken a bit of a turn and side track .
I’m waiting for a 1:8 twist 30 cal barrel for a martini cadet to show up.
Thanks for the help.
I do enjoy reading about these builds thou.

[ndnchf]

That helps. QL wanted to make it 11.0 grains.

Now your RL7 load is only slightly compressed, and QL suggests 5 grains of 2400 and 7 of 4227.

Still a SWAG, but worth a try. Neither one calculates to more psi than your RL7 load., so you'd have room to grow.

uscra112
I went to the range today and tried about a half dozen loads. The only ones that shot consistently and were the most accurate were the .38 short colts loaded with CCI SP magnum primers, 7.5gr and 8.0gr of 4227 and the Old West 150gr heel bullet.

7.5gr - 728fps avg, 28.29 ES, 10.81 SD.
8.0gr - 794fps avg, 33.7 ES, 13.45 ES.

The other revelation is that my previously tested .38 long colt cases were annealed too soft. This was allowing them to stick at the front of the chamber where some pitting is. Today I tried the same .38 long colt loads, but used once fired .38 special brass, cut down to .38 long colt length. These were not annealed. These extracted just fine :-)

So now I'd like to build on these two lessons learned by loading the .38 long cases with 4227 and the same primer and bullet. Would you be so kind as to check Quickload for 4227 data for the .38 long colt and 150gr bullet? The case length is .875", water capacity is 16.0gr. I'm thinking now that 800-950fps may be a sweet spot.

Thanks,
Steve

[uscra112]

Well, QL wants to tell us that 8 grains of 4227 would yield MV of 996 fps from a 24 inch barrel, much higher than your chronograph detected, so the model is still pretty far off somewhere. Go up in steps to 10 grains in the Long case with water capacity of 16 grains.

On another front: I ordered a special reamer from Dave Manson to do the pockets for 6mm blanks in our rimfire adaptors. He's going to take a standard .22LR reamer and reduce the body diameter to .2225 +/-0001". This will, I expect, make the process a lot quicker, since the reamer will form the rim recess instead of doing that in a separate operation. Should have it in about three weeks, (just in time for me to be entering rehab for my back surgery - oh, well).

[ndnchf]

Well, QL wants to tell us that 8 grains of 4227 would yield MV of 996 fps from a 24 inch barrel, much higher than your chronograph detected, so the model is still pretty far off somewhere. Go up in steps to 10 grains in the Long case with water capacity of 16 grains.

On another front: I ordered a special reamer from Dave Manson to do the pockets for 6mm blanks in our rimfire adaptors. He's going to take a standard .22LR reamer and reduce the body diameter to .2225 +/-0001". This will, I expect, make the process a lot quicker, since the reamer will form the rim recess instead of doing that in a separate operation. Should have it in about three weeks, (just in time for me to be entering rehab for my back surgery - oh, well).

Great - thanks. I figured to start with 8.0gr of 4227, but wasn't sure how far to go. That reamer sounds really nice. It certainly will be easier to use than drill bits and .224" chucking reamer that i use.

[uscra112]

I'm hoping the .2225 diameter will provide a bit of a press fit for the Walther blanks I have in stock. They're hard to measure, but I think they average about .2230" . If it's too tight I'll have to pass another reamer through. We'll see. At this point I have three .25-10s with mint bores to feed, in addition to a couple of .32 Long rimfires. So I'm probably going to be making quite a few cases over the winter.

Keep us posted on how the .38 RF loads go. At some point I ought to refine the QL input data I'm using to make the model fit the reality.

[ndnchf]

To be clear, this .38 I'm working with is the centerfire version of .38 rimfire. I swapped a centerfire block into the #2 RRB rifle.

For my cases converted to rimfire I use these starter pistol blanks as primers:

https://www.lcsupply.com/collections/blank-ammo/products/lcs-22-crimp-blank-ammo

They measure .225" - .226" diameter. So using a .224" chucking reamer provides a nice press fit. To seat them, I made a flat top seating anvil that replaces a shell holder in the loading press. I use a die that the case easily slip fits into, but stops on the rim. I place the blank on the anvil, then the case over it. Then raise the ram, which seats the blank flush in the case. It works great.

[uscra112]

Hmmm - those blanks are bigger than the Walther ones I have. No standardization? I may be happy that I ordered Walther again last week. At least, if I ream small, I can enlarge if necessary. Hard to put metal back.

I already have that flat-top "shell holder". Made it a long time ago for some purpose that I can't even remember. Lately been using it to size down 32 S&W into .32 Colt, and now Hornet into .25 Stevens.

Phil