New Faster BP?? OBETEX is the name.

[Markopolo]

Take a peek at this guys....

234118

I been hearing rumors of some new BP that is much faster then Swiss.. hmmmmmm so an internet search has yielded this from South Africa....

https://www.bpsu.co.za/BPSU_Newsflashes/2016/BPSU%20Newsflash%207%20of%202016.pdf

https://www.bpsu.co.za/Obatex%203%20-%20ManMagnum%20December%202017.pdf

https://www.bpsu.co.za/Obatex%202%20-%20By%20the%20numbers.pdf

Seems to be gathering steam... wonder if it might be available here at some point? What do you think, Hype? Or the real deal? Don’t we have some folks here from South Africa?

Marko

[Squeeze]

https://youtu.be/nURta8-zu4E

[waksupi]

Speed is not necessarily your friend in BPCR.

[ofitg]

Several years ago, a BP substitute called "Sannadex" was sold in South Africa. It was classified as "black powder" by the South African government, but it was a mixture of potassium nitrate, sugar and iron oxide..... not the "traditional" recipe.

I suspect that OBETEX is another BP substitute, and not the traditional "Holy Black".

I did a quick search, but I couldn't find any details on OBETEX ingredients.

[Chill Wills]

Do you have a link to where I could read about the mix?... "It was classified as "black powder" by the South African government, but it was a mixture of potassium nitrate, sugar and iron oxide..... not the "traditional" recipe."

This is new news to me. Intriguing stuff.

[ofitg]

Chill Wills, the info I have was copied from a South African BP forum several years ago.... I am afraid that forum has since disappeared.
I will send you the info via Private Message.

[Maven]

Search the internet for red powder propellant, an improvised "explosive" from the U.S. military handbook.

[Markopolo]

Squeeze? That has nothing to do with BP.... do you mind? That belongs in the political forum, not inserted into a BP discussion.

Maven? Are you saying that OBETEX is redpowder? Or ???

[arcticap]

This is total speculation, but perhaps they're using special charcoal that's made from something akin to balsa wood.
I've read that balsa can help make some powerful and clean burning powder.
Balsa is the softest hardwood species there is, less dense that cork, fast growing and also grown on plantations.
And it has relatives....
If not balsa then probably another soft wood charcoal known for making fast black powder.

[Markopolo]

That is what I was thinking... some sort of Native wood species that was especially soft... hoping somebody might know what it is made of...

[Maven]

Marco...., I was responding to Chill Will's reply (#5 above), particularly the words highlighted in blue: No more/no less.

[megasupermagnum]

Not particularly related, but something I've been meaning to ask. In relation to so called fast blackpowder, why can't you use more of the slower stuff. I'll pull an example from thin air. If 110 grains of Swiss produces 20k psi and 1900 fps, while 110 grains of Goex produces 17k psi and 1800 fps, why can't I use say 120 grains Goex for the same speed. I know this is vague, and doesn't apply to BPCR, but why is the velocity a brand produces a concern in a muzzleloader?

[rfd]

This is total speculation, but perhaps they're using special charcoal that's made from something akin to balsa wood.
I've read that balsa can help make some powerful and clean burning powder.
Balsa is the softest hardwood species there is, less dense that cork, fast growing and also grown on plantations.
And it has relatives....
If not balsa then probably another soft wood charcoal known for making fast black powder.

somewhere someone posted that obetex used paulownia charcoal - this is a lightweight (varying densities, just like balsa) hardwood, fast growing asiatic tree (30 feet per year) that we also farm here in the USA.

[rfd]

Not particularly related, but something I've been meaning to ask. In relation to so called fast blackpowder, why can't you use more of the slower stuff. I'll pull an example from thin air. If 110 grains of Swiss produces 20k psi and 1900 fps, while 110 grains of Goex produces 17k psi and 1800 fps, why can't I use say 120 grains Goex for the same speed. I know this is vague, and doesn't apply to BPCR, but why is the velocity a brand produces a concern in a muzzleloader?

for me it's not about the velocity as much as the cleaner burning, with less fouling. this is where swiss shines for bpcr and trad muzzys.

[indian joe]

somewhere someone posted that obetex used paulownia charcoal - this is a lightweight (varying densities, just like balsa) hardwood, fast growing asiatic tree (30 feet per year) that we also farm here in the USA.

That was me but I put a question mark after it ---I dont know at all -- it was merely a suggestion as to how (maybe) they might have got the extra energy ----

also in the testing quoted they were looking at a wano load of 90 grains and the 50% reduced (by weight) load of obetex still filled a volume measure to the 80 grain Wano level - so this obetex powder is much less dense than other brands - (that also fits with the idea of pawlonia charcoal) - could also be a blend of that and sugar powder - lots of possibilities .

[indian joe]

Not particularly related, but something I've been meaning to ask. In relation to so called fast blackpowder, why can't you use more of the slower stuff. I'll pull an example from thin air. If 110 grains of Swiss produces 20k psi and 1900 fps, while 110 grains of Goex produces 17k psi and 1800 fps, why can't I use say 120 grains Goex for the same speed. I know this is vague, and doesn't apply to BPCR, but why is the velocity a brand produces a concern in a muzzleloader?

1) could be because of cost - ie assume Wano is slower than Goex so if they the same price then Wano costs more to do the same job
2) usually more powder equalls more fouling - (not necessarily the case tho)

[rfd]

for me, it's all interesting at best until obetex is stateside available for some real testing. ;)

[indian joe]

for me it's not about the velocity as much as the cleaner burning, with less fouling. this is where swiss shines for bpcr and trad muzzys.

agree with the first part ---cleaner burning + consistent velocity --both beat extra velocity ---dont know how Swiss rates - have never shot it - unobtainable down under at the moment.

[rfd]

trust me on swiss, it's that good ... or just look at who's using it at the matches. OE is good stuff, too.

[indian joe]

for me, it's all interesting at best until obetex is stateside available for some real testing. ;)

I think that is why squeeze posted his political bit - highly likely that South Africa will shred itself politically before they get to export any powder - there is white genocide going on in that country right now and nobody seems to care ................................

[indian joe]

trust me on swiss, it's that good ... or just look at who's using it at the matches. OE is good stuff, too.

I rang every gunshop I could think of just a few days back from the tropic of capricorn to the southern ocean - no Swiss - Wano or wano or Wano - just would have liked a can of Swiss to test
Have not seen Goex since 1995 but still have some of that left (Moosic Plant powder from before the blowup) its way better powder than any wano I have had - Aussie shooters filled the gap with Chinese fireworks powder for a good number of years -- I had some of that ages ago that was as good as the best ever for clean burn - later was dirty powder.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm going to guess you don't live in USA, I've never even heard of Wano. I've got access to Swiss and Goex. It might have a big effect on long range rifle accuracy, but for me I would not say Swiss has anything over Goex. I swab every shot with any powder, so cleanliness is not a high concern. I can't measure any difference on target or chrony. I personally only buy standard red can Goex now, but I only base that on #1 works well, #2 available and inexpensive #3 made in USA.

Now that I think of it, the only powders that don't work well are Pyrodex, and any powder in pellet form. I've never met a black powder I didn't like.

[indian joe]

I'm going to guess you don't live in USA, I've never even heard of Wano. I've got access to Swiss and Goex. It might have a big effect on long range rifle accuracy, but for me I would not say Swiss has anything over Goex. I swab every shot with any powder, so cleanliness is not a high concern. I can't measure any difference on target or chrony. I personally only buy standard red can Goex now, but I only base that on #1 works well, #2 available and inexpensive #3 made in USA.

Now that I think of it, the only powders that don't work well are Pyrodex, and any powder in pellet form. I've never met a black powder I didn't like.

I think Grafs sell Wano as Schutzen brand ??

[megasupermagnum]

I have heard of Schutzen. A quick search shows why, Swiss powder is made by Schutzen. Swiss must be to Wano, what Old Ensford is to Goex standard.

[arcticap]

somewhere someone posted that obetex used paulownia charcoal - this is a lightweight (varying densities, just like balsa) hardwood, fast growing asiatic tree (30 feet per year) that we also farm here in the USA.

Thank you for the enlightening info..

I get the feeling that since the powder and the OP's information about it is being displayed on a website that's affiliated with the MLAIC,
- The Black Powder Shooting Union of South Africa - it would seem to lend the powder some credibility as being authentic:--->>> https://www.bpsu.co.za

[ofitg]

Arcticap, I believe you are correct -

http://www.bpsu.co.za/Obatex%201%20-%20ManMagnum%20July%202017.pdf

Obatex is a true black powder, equivalent to the current Swiss and Wano powders, or the G-20 powders of former years. Obatex should not be confused With substitute powders like Sannadex which are not made from traditional black powder ingredients and are hence disqualified from use in national and international competitions.

[indian joe]

I have heard of Schutzen. A quick search shows why, Swiss powder is made by Schutzen. Swiss must be to Wano, what Old Ensford is to Goex standard.

Nope! Wano made in Germany
Swiss made in the Aubonne factory in Switzerland

Schutzen is the marketing / importer company joint ventured with Wano and brings them both into your country.

Wano comes into Australia direct from the factory - used to be marketed as Pioneer powder when I first started shooting.

[rodwha]

Not particularly related, but something I've been meaning to ask. In relation to so called fast blackpowder, why can't you use more of the slower stuff. I'll pull an example from thin air. If 110 grains of Swiss produces 20k psi and 1900 fps, while 110 grains of Goex produces 17k psi and 1800 fps, why can't I use say 120 grains Goex for the same speed. I know this is vague, and doesn't apply to BPCR, but why is the velocity a brand produces a concern in a muzzleloader?

For me it’s an issue because I use it in my revolvers where I’m quite limited on powder capacity. My NMA likes a 30 grn charge (weighs about 33 grns) of 3F Olde Eynsford with my 195 grn bullet. This is likely producing standard .45 ACP performance, which is acceptable. If I used standard Goex or the other powders I’d be getting under 300 ft/lbs of energy, which wouldn’t be acceptable. I don’t want to stock a bunch of powders so I use it in my rifle as well where the powder choice wouldn’t be such a concern.

[megasupermagnum]

For me it’s an issue because I use it in my revolvers where I’m quite limited on powder capacity. My NMA likes a 30 grn charge (weighs about 33 grns) of 3F Olde Eynsford with my 195 grn bullet. This is likely producing standard .45 ACP performance, which is acceptable. If I used standard Goex or the other powders I’d be getting under 300 ft/lbs of energy, which wouldn’t be acceptable. I don’t want to stock a bunch of powders so I use it in my rifle as well where the powder choice wouldn’t be such a concern.

I can completely understand the issue with a cartridge. I have shot Swiss and Goex in multiple handguns, and don't see nearly that much difference though. Realize I'm shooting them in calibers like 357 mag, 41 mag, and 44 mag.

Thanks for that bit of info on Wano powder.

[rfd]

MSM - the only allegiance i have to any real back powder is Performance. i absolutely find a difference using swiss with long guns - BPCR (swiss 1-1/2f for .45-70 PPB and greaser) and trad flintlock muzzleloaders (swiss 3f for .32 to .62, both rifle and smoothbore). burns cleaner, less fouling, more powerful, more Consistent. ymmv.