Selfishness/fear as religious motivation

[T_McD]

What is the motivation to do or be good outside of fear? I say fear but my thoughts encompass the idea that all actions good or bad are in some way self serving.

When applied to religion, it makes me question virtually all aspects of organized religion. What is the point of faith when it is dependent on the writings on long dead humans?

Just some of my musings.

[rl69]

I think :) I try to do right not from fear but from wanting to please so yes self serving

The secound part I'm not sure what your saying my faith comes from the spirit that resides in me.

[BigMagShooter]

Those long dead humans were told what to write by the current Living God.

Self serving, yes, but the good deed usually has it's good reward and the bad one has it's reward too, both are sometimes sooner than later. I'd rather have a bunch of good deed rewards catch up to me later and all at once, rather than the bad ones.

[dverna]

Doing good should come out of love...not fear. Spend more time in the New Testament.

BTW, my belief is that God is not perfect, He makes mistakes in spite of trying His best. His love is perfect. We would not have needed Jesus or the New Testament if living by the rules of the Old Testament would have worked....they did not....and never will.

[Ickisrulz]

Ideally, for the Christian, motivation to do good should not come from fear of punishment or desire to be rewarded. Motivation should be a genuine desire to do the best thing for other people for their benefit and well being . This is what motivates God. We are to be like God.

However, we are not all at this place in our life. The Bible stresses proper action even if proper motivation is absent. The Bible does mention both punishments and rewards to motivate.

[3GRacing]

'What is the motivation to do or be good outside of fear?'- To please the Father. Live a life that pleases the Father through His Son and the Holy Spirit and you will have peace in your heart.

'I say fear but my thoughts encompass the idea that all actions good or bad are in some way self serving.'- Self serving falls in with vanity and greed. We are here to serve the Father through His Son and the Holy Spirit. Remember the words of our Savior as we walk this earth "This is my commandment, that ye love one another even as I have loved you."

'When applied to religion, it makes me question virtually all aspects of organized religion. What is the point of faith when it is dependent on the writings on long dead humans?'- Organized religion to keep the faith alive in the hearts of living mortals, to teach the living the way of our Lord. The point of faith is to follow the word of God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. Remember, long dead humans taught us how to read and write, tie our shoes, use a fork and knife etc., all in service to God.

Fear- In one way or another the New Testament tells us 365 times, one for every day of the year, 'Do not be afraid'.

[Thundarstick]

Fear, perhaps we look at only a partial meaning of the word? For example, I do not wish to die. That would be a self serving statement, or selfish as some would say. I wish to preserve myself, does that mean I'm greedy? Yet, I follow the traffic rules in my country, because I fear the consequences of driving on the wrong side of the road, speeding, losing control, and crashing etc,etc. I wear protective gear when I ride, I also wear protective gear at work. I do this to mitigate damage and possible death to myself. So is the desire for self preservation evil or good? If you answer good, then it would seem obvious that self preservation here, and in the after life would be a noble endeavor. But back to fear! You see I fear the consequences of NOT doing the things that would protect, save me! I don't fear driving, my work, or ridding bicycles and motorcycles, however I do fear the consequences of breaking rules, laws, or just being careless!
Do I fear God? I do not, I know he loves me! I also know he has revealed a plan for my saving, salvation, eternal self preservation, if you will. The plan involves me. I have the power to reject and ignore the plan. There really are only two involved in the outcome of the plan, the planner, rule maker, rewarder, saviour ie God, and me, self, the one in need of preserving, the follower! Do I fear the consequences of ignoring the rules laid out by God? You are darn skippy I do!
Now God didn't leave us out here floundering in the dark, waiting for us to run off the road, crash, burn, and be lost! He gave us a map! It's full of examples, rules of the road, and rite paths,designed to bring us to a destination.

Can you pour from an empty cup? Can you help others while you have neglected self? I could go on and on, but I just don't get where Christians allow themselves to be bullied about saving self, caring for self, and putting self first etc! As in so many things spiritual, it's the motivation that's evil, not the act, and such it is with fear, and self preservation!

[T_McD]

I just struggle with the “why” folks believe. Just doesn’t seem to be a rational thing. If I told you to “have faith” that my investment opportunity would double your money in a week, you’d likely be skeptical. But a book tells you a man defied all natural laws, and you believe.

To be clear I am not trying to be inflammatory in my language, it just seems odd to me. And it’s not like I think I have a better explanation or world view, I just can’t seem to get over the obvious disconnect that otherwise rational thinkers abandon reason when it comes to religion. To the point where folks argue over which interpretation of a book is correct and will come to blows if you disagree.

[MrHarmless]

If you could get everyone to agree which version of god is the real one, you wouldn't have to ask this. It's a result of the idiosyncrasies of sixteen hundred years of words of mouth and inter-language translations, coupled with your brand of religious upbringing.

[rl69]

It wasent a book that led me to faith,it wasent a man preaching His word.it was a draw in me that set me looking for the truth. that draw led me to faith

[T_McD]

So you believe god exists and most religion is a derivative of miscommunication over the years. That’s actually fairly reasonable.

[Rizzo]

I just struggle with the “why” folks believe. Just doesn’t seem to be a rational thing.

So, it sounds like you do not believe in God.
Is that true?

If so, I do not understand how anyone can look around at the diversity of life on earth including animals, insects, plants, etc., each with their own complexity. and not be awed by all of it.
To think that all of this just happened by itself is incomprehensible to me.

How do you see it?

[rl69]

I've never understood how one could believe in God, believe He created the heavens and earth, all life as we know it ,set in place the seasons, the stars , the moon, but He is unable to keep his word true for a few thousand years?

[T_McD]

I've never understood how one could believe in God, believe He created the heavens and earth, all life as we know it ,set in place the seasons, the stars , the moon, but He is unable to keep his word true for a few thousand years?

I don’t follow?...

[rl69]

It hard for me to understand how a God so great can do all these things but He can't keep The message He gave us true? He is able to keep the moon in rotation with the earth causing the rise and fall of the oceans but He can't stop man from distorting his message

[T_McD]

Rizzo, I do believe in some higher power as it seems as likely as winning the cosmic lottery. It does seem to me that more than random chance was involved.

Where I start to doubt is when one religion is supposed to be “the” one. If actual evidence existed to support ones definition of “god” I could understand, but absent that.... how can you possibly debate Scripture when there is no evidence it’s legit in the first place

[T_McD]

Rl69, I see what your saying. I also struggle with all the amazing displays of godly powers and miracles claimed by the Bible that are conveniently absent in today’s world.

[rl69]

I understand. I have heard it preached that we live in a different age,and that those kinds of miracles ended with Paul's death. I'm not going to argue that one way or the other I haven't been shown that in scripture.

I believe miracals still take place but are explained away. Mostly I believe that we don't see more miracles becauseof our lack of faith and understanding! We follow the teaching of men and rely on our understanding. We do not follow the spirit we are scared to lean compleatly on him to sustain us.

There is scripture to back this up but before we can understand scripture we have to know God.

Do you fill that pull / call for something greater? Are you willing follow
Him ? He will show himself to you if you are ready

[Thundarstick]

I just struggle with the “why” folks believe. Just doesn’t seem to be a rational thing. If I told you to “have faith” that my investment opportunity would double your money in a week, you’d likely be skeptical. But a book tells you a man defied all natural laws, and you believe.

Well, as a matter of fact, it was a book that brought me to believe. However it, is unlike any other book in the earth. Authored by 35-40 different writers over a span of thousands of years, it tells a dual story, a story of God and man. To a believer, it contains the fall of man, and the path of reconciliation back to God, the words of the"I AM", to the nonbeliever is nothing more than a collection of stories. I believe there is ONLY ON ONE GOD, only one way to get to him, and only one book that tells the way to be saved. A book we know as The Bible.

rl69 keeps talking about a pull, what's he talking about? I'll attemp to answer my own question.

Since God made all human kind, I believe he put this (call it what you will) pull, search for the truth, a reason, an answer, a need to find and worship him. All mankind have this, and worship something, places, things, times, power, even themselves! So I think mankind is going to seek God, but wether he follows the true God is ultimately up to the individual (back to that fear/ self preservation). I could go on, but I'll say I've read the books of other religions, I searched, and I found the Bible the most convincing and I believe it to be the way, after all, I was seeking something I didn't even know where to find at the time. You may, and are free to come to a different conclusion.
Love for all!

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, I do believe in some higher power as it seems as likely as winning the cosmic lottery. It does seem to me that more than random chance was involved.

Where I start to doubt is when one religion is supposed to be “the” one. If actual evidence existed to support ones definition of “god” I could understand, but absent that.... how can you possibly debate Scripture when there is no evidence it’s legit in the first place

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I have similar views about certain religions claiming to being the "one" (true religion).
If we call the "higher power" the Creator, then I can see where many religions are praying to, worshiping, etc. to the same Entity.
God (Creator) is not just for the Bible believers but for everyone.

Man has developed different views, rules, rituals, etc. and incorporated them into the various belief systems we have today.

Regarding there is no evidence that Scripture is legit, the Bible is a history book of sorts that documents happenings in the past. These happenings were witnessed by people who verbally passed on the happenings or documented them.
Some amazing things were witnessed back then.
The documentation of those events could be considered evidence, but for some "seeing is believing".

I do not follow any organized religion for various reasons. I have experienced this "pull" that has been mentioned. I feel it in my heart and intuitively know it is God (Creator) calling me back home.
This "pull" has changed my life and I am a better person now because of it.

I think having doubts is a normal phase we all go through. I certainly did.
It's a good start and hopefully you will find peace and understanding on your path.

[T_McD]

That "pull" for me is the fear I was referencing in my original post. Maybe its just me, but I think I would be more unscrupulous in my daily life if I could guarantee getting away scot free. Fear keeps me in line. From a religious perspective, the fear of an afterlife keeps me worried about believing enough to get into whatever club you subscribe to. And I hate to come across as against religion, I was raised non-denominational christian and am glad for it as the morals impressed on me have served me well in life. But that comes back to the crux of my doubts, I value religion because it has been useful to me, not because I believe or have faith. I most identify with Thomas, I am fairly open minded, but ****** give me proof.

[Don Purcell]

There is such a thing as having to live with yourself whether you can get away with something scot free or not. If I had any associates that I knew thought that way they would no longer be my associates. How you conduct yourself when no one can know or see what you do determines what kind of character you have.

[MT Gianni]

I believe many pass through three stages of faith. First they believe/obey from fear, either of parents, pastors or hell. Second they believe/obey from greed, recognizing that He blesses them for righteous living. Thirdly they obey from Love. That love of the Lord pushes them to a higher state of living.

[rl69]

Proverbs 9:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

[T_McD]

There is such a thing as having to live with yourself whether you can get away with something scot free or not. If I had any associates that I knew thought that way they would no longer be my associates. How you conduct yourself when no one can know or see what you do determines what kind of character you have.

So thought matters more than deed? I prefer to judge based on actions.

[rl69]

In a way yes. Actions can be faked you are unable to hide your heart from God

[rl69]

I very much agree,man has taken traditions,and customs and turned them into doctrine. God gave his son to die so that you can draw closer to Him. This is a gift given to you becuse of His love given freely to all who would believe. To the best of my knowlage no other god has done this all other gods call for your work to receve salvation.

Be clear there is only one God and one path to Him

[dverna]

T-McD

I was an unbeliever until just over 18 months ago. I am in my late sixties. My journey has not been easy and it continues. Most of the books recommended to me were not convincing as to God and His exsistence.

There is no “right” religion IMHO. Anyone who speaks to you in those terms is better ignored.

You will find churches filled with hypocrites, that does not lessen the value of the Word.

I have reached the point I believe in God. But He is not the perfect being that religion preaches...in fact, I can find nothing in the Bible where God decrees He is perfect. But His love is perfect. That allows me to accept the inconsistencies in the Bible, why evil things happens to innocent people....especially babies and children....and how the world works.

I was like you. Stay with it brother. God comes to us in different ways. He had to hit me a few times with a 2x4 but He got through to me.

When you accept Jesus your life will change dramatically....and for the better.

[rl69]

Don do you mean denomination or religion? If you mean denomination I agree but there is only one true religion only threw the blood of Christ are we saved

[Don Purcell]

T McD, reread what I said. What you DO (which by the way begins with a thought) when no one will ever see or know determines your character.

[MrHarmless]

So you believe god exists and most religion is a derivative of miscommunication over the years. That’s actually fairly reasonable.

No, I'm not religious at all. But I was raised in a religious environment, and I understand it well.

[dverna]

Don do you mean denomination or religion? If you mean denomination I agree but there is only one true religion only threw the blood of Christ are we saved

You are correct....when it comes to Christians...those who believe their denomination has it right.

But on a wider scope, God sent Jesus to the Middle East....and for whatever reason not to the Far East, or the Americas....etc. He loved/loves all these children too, and so I believe He providess for a way for them to also be saved. These other races, and regions, could not have know about Jesus or the Bible until centuries later. I believe He took care of them in His way.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It feels good to do good, or have done good, does it not? If you have a conscience, it feels bad and is the source of regret to have done bad. If you do not find this to be true, then you are without principles, and a truly amoral person.

Ancient writings do not make truths suspect or less valid because they are ancient. Sir Francis Bacon's discovery of gravity is no less valid today. The truth and existence of God does not diminish with the passage of time.

[rl69]

10/4 I agree there is no one right denomination
I have found freedom in the cowboy church but there are some things that I disagree with them about.

Jesus was sent to Israel because that was Gods chosen people. He was sent to make a way for all to be saved Jew and gentile

When we were instructed to spread the word,it was not to spread law,it was to tell the world Jesus had come to save it. John 3:16

Manny have been called to shepherd the flock which is a different calling. some shepherd to the bankers,lawyers, doctors. Some to bikers. Others to cowboys ,or construction workers. In those diferent class's of people there are diferent customs ( customs not laws )

So you throw me in with a bunch of blue haired ladies,and I start preaching like I would to a construction worker. Just stand back and watch the wreck. The flock would scatter. Manny are unable to see the value of following different customs and sadly many don't understand the difference between law and coustom

Love your brother as you love yourself and you will fulfill all the aspects of the law.

Salvation is simple;but it is only threw Jesus Christ. " I am the way the truth and the light a none comes to the father but threw me"

It's the blood he shed that allows us to come close to God a true and perfect sacrifice one that was not found in the law

[T_McD]

Ancient writings do not make truths suspect or less valid because they are ancient. Sir Francis Bacon's discovery of gravity is no less valid today. The truth and existence of God does not diminish with the passage of time.

Sure but gravity is a highly evident testable phenomenon. Where is the similar evidence for the “truth” of god?

[MrHarmless]

You gotta remember that people of the religious persuasion generally aren't moved by logic or empirical evidence because the basis of their religion is faith, which... you know... is the antithesis of testing a hypothesis for repeatable results. Fairly certain somewhere in those thousands of books are lines which specifically state not to test/challenge your deity. And the reason is that in the absence of Faith it doesn't exist. You won't find some effervescent all powerful being with all the science and testing in the world.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Sure but gravity is a highly evident testable phenomenon. Where is the similar evidence for the “truth” of god?

Look around you. Is it an accident?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Look around yourselves. Is it all an accident?

Can you explain all of the amazing cures of incurable medical conditions that have occurred? One almost untouched person among a car full of deaths at a traffic collision? Persons booked on a plane who inexplicably decided not to fly and the plane crashed with no survivors? So many more examples....

Can you explain the human mind, capable of abstract thought and entertaining the concept of God? An accident? Do rabbits aspire to go to the stars?

Atheists love to say, "Show me your God, and I will believe." God is all around you, but reveals himself only to those who earnestly seek him. Can I show you the wind? No, I can show you the fluttering leaves, the results of the wind. I can show you the creation all about you, but I can not show you the creator. Do you know that the wind exists? Yes, you can feel it, and see the fluttering leaves. I know that God exists. I see his works and creation daily. I have both seen and benefited from answered prayers, but have not seen He who answered. The Bible says, "No man at any time has seen God." This refers to the Father, but the Son was seen and touched in his human form by many. Doubting Thomas touched his wounds. Many saw him ascend into the heavens. Their accounts of these events were recorded in "ancient writings."

When he returns, "All eyes shall behold him." Everyone will believe in the existence of God at that time, but until then most must search him out. Until that time you must be cognizant of the fluttering leaves, the incurable that are cured, the amazing complexity of Creation. If he isn't knocking on your door, you should knock on his.

Can you prove to me that God does not exist?

[T_McD]

Look around yourselves. Is it all an accident?

Can you explain all of the amazing cures of incurable medical conditions that have occurred? One almost untouched person among a car full of deaths at a traffic collision? Persons booked on a plane who inexplicably decided not to fly and the plane crashed with no survivors? So many more examples....

Can you explain the human mind, capable of abstract thought and entertaining the concept of God? An accident? Do rabbits aspire to go to the stars?

Atheists love to say, "Show me your God, and I will believe." God is all around you, but reveals himself only to those who earnestly seek him. Can I show you the wind? No, I can show you the fluttering leaves, the results of the wind. I can show you the creation all about you, but I can not show you the creator. Do you know that the wind exists? Yes, you can feel it, and see the fluttering leaves. I know that God exists. I see his works and creation daily. I have both seen and benefited from answered prayers, but have not seen He who answered. The Bible says, "No man at any time has seen God." This refers to the Father, but the Son was seen and touched in his human form by many. Doubting Thomas touched his wounds. Many saw him ascend into the heavens. Their accounts of these events were recorded in "ancient writings."

When he returns, "All eyes shall behold him." Everyone will believe in the existence of God at that time, but until then most must search him out. Until that time you must be cognizant of the fluttering leaves, the incurable that are cured, the amazing complexity of Creation. If he isn't knocking on your door, you should knock on his.

Can you prove to me that God does not exist?

Is this the kind of evidence you would want to be convicted of murder on? That's my whole point, take the "evidence" of out the context of the divine, and it doesn't hold muster. Can you prove that your religious text is actually from god and not from some dude who wrote it in a long dead language, that some other dude translated, and finally a group of dudes voted it was important enough to be included in the collection of texts?

I am hungry for meat and potatoes evidence not a wispy feel good thought process that is dependent on how much I beleive.

[T_McD]

You gotta remember that people of the religious persuasion generally aren't moved by logic or empirical evidence because the basis of their religion is faith, which... you know... is the antithesis of testing a hypothesis for repeatable results. Fairly certain somewhere in those thousands of books are lines which specifically state not to test/challenge your deity. And the reason is that in the absence of Faith it doesn't exist. You won't find some effervescent all powerful being with all the science and testing in the world.


I used to think that too, but there are way too many intelligent people that simultaneously analyze and use logic for 99% of things and just abandon it all when it comes to their religion. I am most interested in the mental gymnastics that it takes. Not out of derision, but out of a sincere desire to be able to pull it off.

[wv109323]

There are about 5800 manuscripts and transcripts that back up the Bible. Their similarities are nearly verbatim. So records over 2000 years that say nearly the same thing from all parts of the world has some merit. The New Testament was completed in about 96 AD and all but Revelation was completed by 70 AD. The writings were by the actual participants or eye witnesses. There is very few writings that call the Bible a fraud and they are far more unreliable than the Bible.
The death burial and resurrection of Jesus took place in Jerusalem when there were millions of people around but no creditable evidence that what is recorded did not happen the way it is recorded.
There is a book called The Case for Christ(IIRC). It examines the life of Christ and concludes that the Bible is true. I was started by an atheist to disprove the Bible but the further he examined and dug into the Bible the more real it became. You should read it.
I mentioned the 5800 transcripts for the Bible in the time frame of 100 years. The entire story of Alexander the Great was written 600 years after his conquests and there are 2 copies of that writing, yet mankind believes that recorded history.
There have been more Transcripts and manuscripts of the Bible discovered after the King James Version was translated into English than before its translation but all are true to one another.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You see, T Mc D, you have been given the evidence. Irrefutable evidence, which you just refuse to recognize as such. Your eyes and mind are closed, and I alone do not have the power to open them. There is far more evidence to support the existence of God, than to prove that he doesn't exist. I notice that you haven't picked up the gauntlet and attempted to do so.

There are literally thousands of miraculous healings on record, and they happen daily. How can you explain an x-ray chart that shows tumors in a patient's lungs, which subsequently vanish on following visits? Documented cases of terminal cancer where the patient is sent home to die, but doesn't, and a later exam shows the cancer gone? I think that's pretty hard evidence. Look into it. Are you prepared to say that it isn't so?

Again, I ask you to explain all that is around you. No one can reasonably think that it all "just happened" and was some sort of accident of a chance meeting of some chemicals. There is even less chance of that happening than you winning the Power Ball Lottery. It is absurd. The environment you find yourself surrounded by is hard evidence. Can you make a tree?

As stated by wv109323 (above), contemporary documents written at, or shortly after, the time of the New Testament support it. You might look into the writings of a fellow of that time period named Josephus.

You seem to be into the definition of "evidence". All students of the law know that the two types of evidence are direct and circumstantial. Would I like to be convicted of murder on the type of evidence I've presented. Well, I'd rather not be convicted of murder at all, but am convicted of the existence of God. But here we have both types of evidence present. The direct evidence, where someone testifies directly to the existence of God is found in the Bible. The circumstantial evidence is all of the things I have named, plus more, that point to his existence. A third, less used form of evidence is that of regularly kept records, also present. Things that are written down are often given more credence than memory. So, while I don't wish to be convicted of murder, I do believe that the evidence of God's presence is established, and you offer none to disprove the fact.

It has become so fashionable now days to deride Christians and their beliefs in God. I feel so sorry for those in your position who have.....nothing. Having engaged in this type of discussion in the past, I know that continuing it is unrewarding. It goes on and on, and nothing I can say or offer will be accepted by a closed mind. I was there myself at one point in my life, and somewhat understand; but a truly intellectual person must maintain a mind which is open to ideas that it hasn't previously entertained. So I probably won't respond to additional skepticism. Best wishes to you.

[rl69]

The sad thing is once you have faith God gives you proof. If you was able to see the things I've been blessed to see you would have your proof.

If I may ask why are you unwilling to to give your life to somthing you don't understand? What is it you will lose?

If I was to tell you there was a road you canot see, all you you have to do is step off the cliff to find it. I could see your hesitation. It cost nothing to follow Christ. Let me refries that it cost nothing of value.

[T_McD]

You see, T Mc D, you have been given the evidence. Irrefutable evidence, which you just refuse to recognize as such. Your eyes and mind are closed, and I alone do not have the power to open them. There is far more evidence to support the existence of God, than to prove that he doesn't exist. I notice that you haven't picked up the gauntlet and attempted to do so.

There are literally thousands of miraculous healings on record, and they happen daily. How can you explain an x-ray chart that shows tumors in a patient's lungs, which subsequently vanish on following visits? Documented cases of terminal cancer where the patient is sent home to die, but doesn't, and a later exam shows the cancer gone? I think that's pretty hard evidence. Look into it. Are you prepared to say that it isn't so?

Again, I ask you to explain all that is around you. No one can reasonably think that it all "just happened" and was some sort of accident of a chance meeting of some chemicals. There is even less chance of that happening than you winning the Power Ball Lottery. It is absurd. The environment you find yourself surrounded by is hard evidence. Can you make a tree?

As stated by wv109323 (above), contemporary documents written at, or shortly after, the time of the New Testament support it. You might look into the writings of a fellow of that time period named Josephus.

You seem to be into the definition of "evidence". All students of the law know that the two types of evidence are direct and circumstantial. Would I like to be convicted of murder on the type of evidence I've presented. Well, I'd rather not be convicted of murder at all, but am convicted of the existence of God. But here we have both types of evidence present. The direct evidence, where someone testifies directly to the existence of God is found in the Bible. The circumstantial evidence is all of the things I have named, plus more, that point to his existence. A third, less used form of evidence is that of regularly kept records, also present. Things that are written down are often given more credence than memory. So, while I don't wish to be convicted of murder, I do believe that the evidence of God's presence is established, and you offer none to disprove the fact.

It has become so fashionable now days to deride Christians and their beliefs in God. I feel so sorry for those in your position who have.....nothing. Having engaged in this type of discussion in the past, I know that continuing it is unrewarding. It goes on and on, and nothing I can say or offer will be accepted by a closed mind. I was there myself at one point in my life, and somewhat understand; but a truly intellectual person must maintain a mind which is open to ideas that it hasn't previously entertained. So I probably won't respond to additional skepticism. Best wishes to you.

You seem to miss the point. I do believe in “A” god. I am questioning with what confidence you can proclaim to know which god/religion is correct. For that yes, I require evidence. If I am to align my life with an ideology, it will be based on rational thinking.

To put it more simply, why do you worship Jesus instead of Mohammed? My guess is geography and upbringing are the main factors, not evidence based decision making.

[T_McD]

The sad thing is once you have faith God gives you proof. If you was able to see the things I've been blessed to see you would have your proof.

If I may ask why are you unwilling to to give your life to somthing you don't understand? What is it you will lose?

If I was to tell you there was a road you canot see, all you you have to do is step off the cliff to find it. I could see your hesitation. It cost nothing to follow Christ. Let me refries that it cost nothing of value.

I place an incredibly high value in free will and thought. You are not asking for a mere trust fall, you are asking for a continued participation in an ideology. There are rules to follow in all religions, so I am asking how do you know you are following the right set of rules?

[popper]

Sure but gravity is a highly evident testable phenomenon. So is God. Where does it come from? When the brain guy says the universe we know came through a wormhole from another universe, where did the other one come from? Where does fear in 'religion' come from? Same place as the fear of fire. Treat it incorrectly, you get hurt.
Where does love come from? Same place it did for you as an infant - that is where the 'goodies' come from. Is that 'self-serving'? Yup. God gives us the air we breathe, food we eat, land we stand on. He provides and takes care of us. And love is self-serving to Him, as He states in scripture - He created and was pleased with His creation. We can't 'take care' of God except by taking care of his prized creation, us. He makes the rules, is not manipulated (doesn't make errors!) and desires us to obey. He sent Jesus (ONLY sinless human) to the Jew first (who preferred their rules), then to the Gentiles (us) so that all who believe (not just know of him) that He is the only salvation available.
What is salvation? It is NOT holding our sins against us and we ALL sin. What is sin? Spelled out in the 10 (not 12) Commandments.

[dverna]

I place an incredibly high value in free will and thought. You are not asking for a mere trust fall, you are asking for a continued participation in an ideology. There are rules to follow in all religions, so I am asking how do you know you are following the right set of rules?

In fact, the rules for a Christian are simple IF you follow the teachings of Jesus.

[Traffer]

I have tried to make sense of the op. I just plain cannot understand it. Seems like two completely different statements. Neither of which is really a question.

[dverna]

I have tried to make sense of the op. I just plain cannot understand it. Seems like two completely different statements. Neither of which is really a question.

Most Christians never ask the tough questions. They are raised as Christians and the “brain washing” starts at a very early age.

I know where the op is coming from....I traveled his road. When/if he accepts Christ, he will be a better Christian than the scores of “Sunday Christians” we see.

If you, or I, or the majority of folks on this thread were born in a Muslim country, we would have been Muslims. Does anyone really believe otherwise?

It took me two years to accept Jesus but I do not, and cannot, believe everything in the Bible or that God is perfect. Other Christians will believe I am a lesser Christian than they are....God will decide my fate...and Jesus will still forgive me.

To the op....do not give up your questioning. Realize there may not be answers to every question. In the end, Jesus will make himself known to you in His way.

[Hamish]

Down through the last 2K years, when things are good, there's a whole lot of "Jesus Loves You". When times are bad, it's "You're going to eternal ****ation".

There was no idea of Hell, Satan, and ****ation in the early Jewish religion.

[Traffer]

How about someone rephrase the question so I can understand it.

[T_McD]

How about someone rephrase the question so I can understand it.

I will try, and I realize I am all over the place cuz most of this is word vomit.... if i had it figured out I wouldn't be asking :)

To devoutly follow any religion requires more than just simply saying "I believe" and being saved. It requires adherence to a code, set of rules, morals, rituals, etc. I am saying that before I am willing to publicly participate in such rituals, I must first fundamentally believe in the religion itself. By being Christian (picking on this religion since its most relevant), you give up free will to be accepted by the group. This is not always a bad thing, and is where my desire to "fit" into a religious group lies. I was born and raised in the church and am better for it, but that is not the stated purpose of the church. you are to win souls to avoid eternal ****ation. Thats quite the leap from simply being a good person, and is where my requirement for proof rears its head. If I am to convince people to join my club, I'd like to know its not a sham.

[wv109323]

OP,
You are correct in that there are numerous beliefs/denominations but you must realize that man started them and not God. Most beliefs have started since the Bible was in the common mans hand. That was in about 1500AD when the Bible was printed instead of hand copied.
The only way to determine what is right is to study, read and listen. I try to read both pros and cons of a subject before I make up my mind as to what I believe and what is pleasing to God. Still there are many things that I can not or will not "take a side on". I call many of these "non-essentials" for salvation. If you accept Christ and If you strive to live by the 10 commandments you will do well.
Paul settled on what Gentiles must practice before they could become Christians. That list was 1.)not to eat meat sacrificed to idols,2.) Do not practice fornication 3.) Do not worship idols.
After that those that professed Christ as their Savior were to be accepted as Christians
The one thing I will present as evidence for Christians: Do you know of a life long Christian that was nearing death,that recanted on their faith? Do you know of any that said"Take my name off the church membership, it was all a big joke" Or have the saints faced death with boldness?
Like I said man has made a mountain out of a mole hill. After all man is not perfect. All God asks is that we have faith, belief and obedience. There are subjects I have changed my mind about and many I have moved to be open minded about, especially those that are not essential to my salvation.

[T_McD]

Most Christians never ask the tough questions. They are raised as Christians and the “brain washing” starts at a very early age.

I know where the op is coming from....I traveled his road. When/if he accepts Christ, he will be a better Christian than the scores of “Sunday Christians” we see.

If you, or I, or the majority of folks on this thread were born in a Muslim country, we would have been Muslims. Does anyone really believe otherwise?

It took me two years to accept Jesus but I do not, and cannot, believe everything in the Bible or that God is perfect. Other Christians will believe I am a lesser Christian than they are....God will decide my fate...and Jesus will still forgive me.

To the op....do not give up your questioning. Realize there may not be answers to every question. In the end, Jesus will make himself known to you in His way.

Yes, you've got my brainwaves figured out. And since you seem to grasp at what I am poorly trying to explain, how does one reconcile these misgivings about religion with raising a child. No matter what I do, I am brainwashing my child to believe or not believe. And at this point I think believing is the lesser of two evils, even though its difficult to indoctrinate what you don't yourself believe.

[T_McD]

OP,
You are correct in that there are numerous beliefs/denominations but you must realize that man started them and not God. Most beliefs have started since the Bible was in the common mans hand. That was in about 1500AD when the Bible was printed instead of hand copied.
The only way to determine what is right is to study, read and listen. I try to read both pros and cons of a subject before I make up my mind as to what I believe and what is pleasing to God. Still there are many things that I can not or will not "take a side on". I call many of these "non-essentials" for salvation. If you accept Christ and If you strive to live by the 10 commandments you will do well.
Paul settled on what Gentiles must practice before they could become Christians. That list was 1.)not to eat meat sacrificed to idols,2.) Do not practice fornication 3.) Do not worship idols.
After that those that professed Christ as their Savior were to be accepted as Christians
The one thing I will present as evidence for Christians: Do you know of a life long Christian that was nearing death,that recanted on their faith? Do you know of any that said"Take my name off the church membership, it was all a big joke" Or have the saints faced death with boldness?
Like I said man has made a mountain out of a mole hill. After all man is not perfect. All God asks is that we have faith, belief and obedience. There are subjects I have changed my mind about and many I have moved to be open minded about, especially those that are not essential to my salvation.

Ah yes, I realized early on people were the worst part of church. That is part of what drives my unwillingness to conform blindly. I can deal with my religion being twisted and abused by people serving their own best interest, bad apples exist. What I fear is it all being a cruel sham invented by some ancient *******. I just don't have much confidence in Christianity, and perhaps the solution is to simply accept what i can accept and let the rest go.

[rl69]

To answer you question to me ....faith ...threw my faith God has shown himself to me.

Look back at my posts
The thing you are not seeing is that Christianity is not a set of ruels to follow. It's not "you live this way or you will be thrown in the pit of hell" Christianity IS FAITH nothing more nothing less that's all that is required

once you have that faith,your life it will be changed. you will no longer want to live a life that is unpleasing to God. He will show you what thouse unpleasing things are.

The answer you seek will only come from faith. Read the book of Romans a few times.it will tell you how sin condemns us,and how Christ saves us from that condemnation,and how we have freedom threw Him.

Again I ask what have you loose threw faith?what will happen if you blindly trust and turn to Christ?

[dverna]

T
First, do not equate "the church" with Jesus. By that I mean churches are run by people and some are petty and narrow minded. Pastors come and go. The new Pastor at one of the churches I attend is a really nice man, but not a good preacher. Most of the people attending there are good Christian,s so that keeps me going back. You will need to shop around for a denomination that fits your needs and a church that you are comfortable with.

The only acceptance needed is for you to accept Christ. Being accepted by the congregation should not concern you....real Christians will accept you even if you have questions and doubts. If they cannot...move on. And IMHO, accepting Christ does not require that you accept everything in the Bible and certainly not everything a pastor preaches. There are "truths" that you must accept. To love others (one of the most difficult things to do BTW) and to serve others who are in need. NO ONE I know is perfect at doing those two seemingly simple duties. God does not expect us to be perfect but He expects us to try our best.


Let me give you an example. Jesus loves LBGTQ people as much as any "straight" person, and He expects us to love them too. I cannot make that step...at least not yet. Before accepting Jesus I justified my feelings towards that group of people very easily; but having accepted Jesus, I know my feelings are wrong. I would never have assaulted them, even when I was an atheist , but there are "Christians" who would advocate burning down the homes of gay couples (posted on this site BTW). Being a Christian is not easy.

One last item. Every church I have attended wants money over and above the work you may do to help maintain the building, cut grass, plow snow, serve at community events, work at the food pantry, etc ,etc. It takes cash to run a church. I do not tithe but give every week. There is no requirement to give and if your church insists on it (some keep track!)...move on. You will feel compelled to give, so give what you are comfortable with.

[Sig556r]

Faith is believing what you don't see yet feel...so it defies logic.
So does belief in intuition or gut feel, it's unexplainable yet you know you feel it.
Free will is doing what you feel is right & not just what your church teaches.
A wise feller once said...if you believe you got brains, you got faith as only a brain surgeon or a coroner can verify that, not you...

[popper]

T Mc D - your title is correct in many ways. Many respond to religion through fear or selfishness. That is NOT Christianity. Take the word catholic. To many that is the Roman Catholic church. Nope, means the Universal Church Of Christ. You either realize that Jesus is the Son of God (God incarnate who came to earth for a purpose) or He is not. Most of us do not get the experience that Paul had on the road. So yes, blind (intended pun) faith. But once you believe, it's not blind faith. But why is Jesus important? Will you put your innocent child up for execution so that a guilty murderer will go free with no consequences? trick question - because YOU are now a guilty murderer. Who will give their life for yours, on so on! Once you understand, you want all around you to understand. Does it mean you will be rich, famous or beautiful? Nope.
As to a remark by Dverna (not personal Don!), if you believe God can make mistakes, be careful. You are humanly defining a mistake. That makes you a god.

[Thundarstick]

My faith is NOT based on some "gut feeling"! My feelings CAN NOT be trusted!

My faith is based on a promise made by a God, that has been proven to MY satisfaction through historical recordings (both inside the Bible and out), to be true, and that He is able to deliver on the promises He made!

I assure you that EVERY follower of every religion FEELS that they are walking a path to heaven! You couldn't pull the pin on your suicide vest if you didn't. I commend anyone who is truly searching for the way to be saved. If you seek, you will find!

To me, faith isn't some bungling around in the darkness of my heart. Here's an example that would fit my faith. I've never been to Seattle, but I believe it's there, I've read about it, I've seen pictures, and I've talked to some who say they have been there. The evidence is overwhelming that Seattle exist, ie there is enough proof for me. I have a road atlas that shows twisty turning roads that would take me there if I desire to go there. Soooooooo I can load up my bicycle with gear, follow the map, and after weeks on the road, I BELIEVE I will arrive in Seattle! I've been promised it's there, with evidence, I have a map to guide me, I have the means to arrive, yet, yet, it's still up to me to load up and go! However, if I don't believe Seattle is there, AND I have no desire to go there, it doesn't make the existence of Seattle any less real.

Once again, I commend anyone looking for proof! It's out there!

[Traffer]

I still don't understand. Maybe it is because I don't care. One of the big differences between God and me is that God cares for all people. I try to but really don't. I figure that those who do not believe will have quite a rude awakening when they face Him on judgment day. I have warned many and have even said that I will bear witness that I did so at their judgment.
As far as fearing God...seems a prudent thing to do since God himself said, "do not fear man who can only kill you, but fear God who after taking your life can send you to eternal torment". Yes, it is a good thing to fear God. Just like it is a good thing to fear a gun that is pointed at your head.

[dverna]

popper,
No offense taken my friend.

So far, I have not seen in the Bible where God tells us he is perfect but I am not a scholar. I cannot find anything using Google either. What I have found is something written by someone on the subject. This person stated that it was ancient theologians who wrote about God being perfect...it was their belief. And that belief has permeated modern religion. It anyone can point me to areas in the Bible where God confirms His perfection, I would be very appreciative. It will help the op too!

There are sections in the Bible that make more sense to me if God is not perfect. The simplest example is the 613 laws of the Old Testament. These were given to man to follow even after Adam and Eve could not follow even one rule. Why would God expect His children to know and follow 613 Laws, when mankind showed in Genesis they could not follow one?..... unless He wanted us to fail??? God made a mistake...I think...and, after realizing man could never meet His standards, He sent us Jesus so His children could find salvation. There are numerous other examples but that is enough thread drift for now.

[popper]

Don, I believe you are referring to the Israelite rules and ordinances of the Celebrations, offerings, cleanliness and general 'methods' (my words) of worship. Tithes, celebrations, not working on Sabbath (Saturday) were IMHO given by God but the 'refining' and application were of man. Some are real life rules (expanding 10 Commandments), others are tradition.
As an example, Mary tell Jesus to 'solve' the wine problem. As a parent one can give instructions to grown children; but to the Son of God? Jesus response was to honor God (wasn't His time yet but IMHO, he got permission?) yet he honored his mother. When reading that passage in our language I get the impression that Jesus is ticked (feeling manipulated?), Mary realizes what she has done and acquiesces to His action. Jesus has a choice, sin and deny a parent's legitimate request or not. It gets tricky and we don't always do the right thing. Is cooking or chewing wheat as you walk through a field on the Sabbath a sin, as it involves 'work' of your muscles?

[wv109323]

T McD,
Don't let all the manmade rules and regulations keep you from accepting and serving Christ. The best rulebook for serving Christ is the Bible. I agree there is a mind boggling amount of manmade rules out there that have nothing to do with your salvation. And many are in conflict with one another.
The best way is to read the Bible and decide for yourself what is right. Commentaries on the Bible can help, so can Bible study groups. Also if you know some one that you can respect for his beliefs ask them to counsel you when you have questions. He/they will be able to show you what they believe in the Bible.
I attend a church where the pastor recently observed 70 years as a Christian and about 67 as a preacher. I have never heard one person criticize him. He has a balance of humbleness and boldness that is respected. A persons testimony will bear them out.
I did an extensive study on the Bible to confirm it was Gods word. The best book I found on the subject was a book" How we got the Bible" by author Lightfoot. I have read it 5 times and learn more each time. The bottom line is the King James is very,very reliable. I refer to the Bible and not man.
I belief what is in the Bible. I believe that God can operate outside our laws of time, space and matter so I accept what is written. I can not explain explain it all nor does the Bible require me to know it all.
Just start slow and learn. The Holy Spirit will guide you to the correct understanding.

[Hickory]

What is the motivation to do or be good outside of fear? I say fear but my thoughts encompass the idea that all actions good or bad are in some way self serving.
Just some of my musings.

Love, is the motivation.
It is the same reason you do good to your wife and children, it's because you love them.
But, even in marriage there is fear. Fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of of a divorce and the punishment of its outcome.

It is the same with God. God loves us and expects us to love him. If we reject God and his love we end up lost and bound for punishment.
Divorce court and Hell can be quite the same. Only, one last forever.

[Ickisrulz]

popper,
No offense taken my friend.

So far, I have not seen in the Bible where God tells us he is perfect but I am not a scholar. I cannot find anything using Google either. What I have found is something written by someone on the subject. This person stated that it was ancient theologians who wrote about God being perfect...it was their belief. And that belief has permeated modern religion. It anyone can point me to areas in the Bible where God confirms His perfection, I would be very appreciative. It will help the op too!

There are sections in the Bible that make more sense to me if God is not perfect. The simplest example is the 613 laws of the Old Testament. These were given to man to follow even after Adam and Eve could not follow even one rule. Why would God expect His children to know and follow 613 Laws, when mankind showed in Genesis they could not follow one?..... unless He wanted us to fail??? God made a mistake...I think...and, after realizing man could never meet His standards, He sent us Jesus so His children could find salvation. There are numerous other examples but that is enough thread drift for now.

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

[T_McD]

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

Why when you don’t understand do you fall back on a “perfect” god, we are asking the same question just from a different viewpoint.

[popper]

Read about Martin Luther. He finally realized that he was worried about everything he did, was it a sin? God gave the Commandments for us to follow, they are not suggestions. However, He knew we couldn't keep them so it is a proof to us that we aren't 'good'. We try, fail and our failures are covered by Jesus, only if we truly believe He is perfect Son of God.Is it a sin to miss church once in a while to do something else? Paul started churches to spread the Gospel, teach others; not to require attendance or 'else'.

[T_McD]

I still don't understand. Maybe it is because I don't care. One of the big differences between God and me is that God cares for all people. I try to but really don't. I figure that those who do not believe will have quite a rude awakening when they face Him on judgment day. I have warned many and have even said that I will bear witness that I did so at their judgment.
As far as fearing God...seems a prudent thing to do since God himself said, "do not fear man who can only kill you, but fear God who after taking your life can send you to eternal torment". Yes, it is a good thing to fear God. Just like it is a good thing to fear a gun that is pointed at your head.

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes. How do you have the audacity to believe you have salvation when you gleefully envision others being denied it? It is mind-boggling to me. The greatest commandments are to love god and to love people. Explain how “not caring” fits into either category?

[Ickisrulz]

Why when you don’t understand do you fall back on a “perfect” god, we are asking the same question just from a different viewpoint.

When I look at creation, I see proof of a Creator that might just know a little more than I do.

I have read and studied the Bible for decades and have concluded its story is the only feasible explanation for our existence, our present state and solution for our problems. No other religion or philosophy comes close.

Additionally, I have seen God's hand and goodness in my own experiences.

So, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

[T_McD]

When I look at creation, I see proof of a Creator that might just know a little more than I do.

I have read and studied the Bible for decades and have concluded its story is the only feasible explanation for our existence, our present state and solution for our problems. No other religion or philosophy comes close.

Additionally, I have seen God's hand and goodness in my own experiences.

So, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough, I appreciate the acknowledgement of doubts. Seems to be all I have at the moment

[dverna]

God's perfection is rooted in his sinlessness, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. These four attributes are clearly stated many times in the Bible and enable God to always act perfectly. God is never surprised or defeated and only reluctantly destroys that which has failed. The only thing that holds up God's plans are people. This is because God works in cooperation with them.

The Old Covenant given to the Jews had a purpose. It was to show man he could not please God by following a list of rules. The Law was also meant to lead man to Christ. Read Romans/Galatians for an explanation, it is all in there. Despite the Law and man's inability to follow it, many people in the Old Testament pleased God through their faith.

I don't mean to come across as a jerk, but why when you cannot understand something do you put the blame on God and claim he is imperfect?

How can people hold up God’s plans, when God knows all that will happen and He knows who will fail before the fact.

BTW, you are correct....when I cannot understand something I believe I should be able to understand, I question His perfection. Especially when He never states He is perfect. I have found where the Bible says His love is perfect, and I truly believe that.

He allows natural disasters to take numerous lives....even those of babies who could not have sinned, but I believe He loves them and saves them. I cannot understand why He allows it, but I accept there is a higher reason I cannot comprehend. I do not see these as mistakes...they are acts of God.

I will study Romans and Galatians as you suggest to understand why the 613 laws were not a mistake. Thanks for the guidance. My issue with the Laws is that He gave them to us as a way to live our lives as He desired....and any rational person knows mankind could never satisfy them.

I have never seen you as a”jerk”.

[Thundarstick]

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes.

Yes friend, this is correct! As you see, church is made up of people, people aren't perfect, God's plan is perfect however. God's still working on me and I'm sure he will continue to work on all who follow him. However, we are ONLY made perfect in Christ before God's eyes. I attend church services and study the Bible BECAUSE I'm not perfect, and I want to be the man God wants me to be! NOT to see how many perfect Christians I can find there.

An old friend (he's passed on now) told me once, "christianity is more than just a belief, it's actually a life style we choose to live. ".

[Ickisrulz]

How can people hold up God’s plans, when God knows all that will happen and He knows who will fail before the fact.

God has chosen to partner with people when it comes to the human race. God never works alone. Here are some examples of successful endeavors:

1. We plant our food and God causes it to grow.
2. God sent a flood to wipe out evil but Noah had to save specimens of each animal.
3. Moses was sent to deliver Israel from Egypt and God worked the miracles.
4. Prophets sent to Israel to deliver God's message.
5. Jesus was raised by a human familiy and educated by Jewish teachers.
6. Jesus multiplied the fish/bread and the disciples served it.
7. Jesus bought salvation for mankind and the Apostles spread the Gospel.

However, when man does not do his part, God's plan is either postponed, cancelled or changed. One simple example: it is God's will that everyone have enough to eat. However, (traditionally) a person who does not plant a crop, harvest and process it will starve. One complicated example: When Israel moved into the Promised Land, God told her to remove the wicked inhabitants to eliminate their bad influence. God could have removed them with a plague or other disaster, but he made Israel responsible for this (warfare). Israel failed to do as God commanded and was repeatedly lured into idolatry. This eventually led to the Exile. This was not what God wanted for Israel.

People see God as all powerful and all knowing and come to the conclusion that he will press on no matter what to get his way, or at least not set on a course of action that will not succeed. The Bible shows this way of thinking just isn't true.

[pmer]

5 or 6 years ago I was in a similar boat to where T_McD is and I was asking/posting about how to read the bible. Where to start and getting confused about some of translating from the old languages to the modern terms we see in bible. Like love God and hate my brother is more about holding God first and others second. When I see the word fear in the bible I often think respect.

At our ''church'' we try to not mix the terms religion and church. The church is the body of Christ and religion are all the various denominations of people adding, changing and tweaking. I'd try to a find a church that sticks very close to the bible as it is written.

When T_McD mentioned growing up in a church when the parents bring there kids up in the religion that they are attending that caught my mind because that was me too. Sure the parent is bringing up the child in a tradition of faith but at some point in time that child gets confronted by the Spirit on their own and has to decide for themselves about God. A parent can only take you so far down this road, the remain steps are up to T_McD.

The doubt you are facing is the heavenly battle for your soul. The doubt is real, it's something you can feel and I'm praying for you. My hope for you is to keep searching for your answers and not give up. I suspect the proof you're looking for is not far from you. The proof was all around the Pharisees' and they chose not to see it.

Up until I asked Jesus into my life I thought I was christain. One day the Spirit started working on me and after a while it finally turned into a life changing event and I wouldn't go back for anything.

[Ickisrulz]

My issue with the Laws is that He gave them to us as a way to live our lives as He desired....and any rational person knows mankind could never satisfy them.

God is motivated by love. Therefore, the Law was given for man's well being, happiness and education. Sure, no one could follow the entire Law and no one was justified by the Law. However, the closer an Israelite adhered to the Law the better off he'd be during his life on earth (e.g., see Psalm 1).

If we take out the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Law, we are left with commands for loving God and loving our neighbor. The more any person or society follows these commands the better things will be. If you think about it, no one wants to live in a place where crime is rampant, no one cares about anyone else and the justice system is corrupt.

So, was the Law a TOTAL failure? Not in my understanding.

[Traffer]

And this is precisely why Church sucks... it is full of similar attitudes. How do you have the audacity to believe you have salvation when you gleefully envision others being denied it? It is mind-boggling to me. The greatest commandments are to love god and to love people. Explain how “not caring” fits into either category?

Well someone took the bait. I do actually try to care for people ...love them. I know it is essential to representing Christ on earth. Or being an ambassador for the Kingdom of God. It is something that I realize must change in my character. I pray for it nearly every day. Just as Hickory stated, "love is the motivation". I like most people, was not raised as a Christian. I was taught to judge and hate my enemies. Turning to God, the Bible and Jesus when I was 32 years old, I began to learn that my perspective was way out of synch with God. Indeed the conviction in my heart came after reading the first chapter of Romans, then reading the first sentence of Romans 2. I was seized, literally seized by my conscience. I fell on my knees and started to beg God to change me. I promised him to live by his word since it had just revealed my heart is such a way. That is how I began my quest to know God through his word.
It is an ongoing struggle for me to keep the right perspective and carry the love in my heart to continue with the "ministry of reconciliation". This is how God refers to the work of Christ and the continuing work of his disciples. We live to reconcile others to God. The reward is to be "with God", having his Spirit dwell inside of us. As it says in 2 Corinthians Chapter 3..."But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."
This is the "offer" or "promise" that is given to us in the Bible. That we may be transformed into the likeness of Christ.
So why are there so many Christians like me? People who are fed up with those who perpetrate evil, hate God and do everything in their power to destroy Christianity and the faith of those who believe?
We have a powerful enemy. The Deceiver. He is better at what he does that anyone realizes. When we take our eyes off of God we immediately begin to be effected by his cunning. (Thank God for His Grace and Mercy) I am just rambling here now... I guess to sum it up, being a Christian is a personal thing between a man and his Creator. It certainly has much to do with a man and the others around him also. But if a man keeps close to God he reflects his God. As far as the Church is concerned, that is a very long topic. Certainly the Christs Church is flawed as the people are flawed. Even to the point that we cannot define who is a member and who is not. It is the possession of Christ and He determines who is part of him. "not everyone who comes to me and says "Lord, Lord" is ..."
I think it is utterly missing the point to try and defend a "religion". It is not about that and the discussion should not be about that. It is just another mis-direction by the Deceiver. I think it foolish to try and reason with Satan. No man is a match for him. Like a pea shooter against cannon. No match. The best we can do is to identify his tactics and not fall for them. In the mean time I will try to love people and become more like my Lord.

[wv109323]

The lifestyle of a true Christian is a lifestyle that gives us the least trouble in today's world.
We should have no trouble with the law or jail time.
We should have no illnesses from alcohol or drugs and hopefully cigarettes.
No STD.
No problems with alimony,child custody or child support.
No DUI or car crashes from speeding.
But being a Christian is not an insurance policy against all misfortune. The Bible says "it will rain on the just and the unjust" meaning all are subject to acts of God.
One thing that God does not promise is a guarantee of long life or freedom from adversiety. God does promise Christians eternal life that supercedes anything we can encounter in this life. If death was not random then God would have to give everyone the same life span. Then no one would prepare for death until their life time was up. That is why there are eathquakes and tornadoes and Christians dying in them. If Chrristanity was an absolute insurance policy against misfortune than many would sign up for the coverage.
All in all there is no downside of being a Christian. As quoted "I am not perfect but perfectly forgiven". Within any group there will be those not living as they should and maybe hypocrites. But it is better to go to church with them than to go to hell with them.

[Thundarstick]

Another thing I have come to accept is that every Christian is not in the same place in their spiritual life at the same time! We should mature in our walk with Christ as we grow in understanding.

I'll shurly second the statement that there is no downside to being a Christian and living a Christian life!

[dverna]

Another thing I have come to accept is that every Christian is not in the same place in their spiritual life at the same time! We should mature in our walk with Christ as we grow in understanding.

I'll shurly second the statement that there is no downside to being a Christian and living a Christian life!

Wise words

[T_McD]

The lifestyle of a true Christian is a lifestyle that gives us the least trouble in today's world.
We should have no trouble with the law or jail time.
We should have no illnesses from alcohol or drugs and hopefully cigarettes.
No STD.
No problems with alimony,child custody or child support.
No DUI or car crashes from speeding.
But being a Christian is not an insurance policy against all misfortune.

This sums up my motivation for wanting my kid to be raised with a moral compass.

[wv109323]

I am going to comment on this post one more time.
There has been a few comments about God's perfection. Matt. 5:48 says God is perfect. Psalms 18:30 says God's way is perfect. Though I may not understand it God's complete plan for mankind existed from day one. Everything God created was perfect. It was man's freewill that allowed man to sin, that introduced sin and death to the world. God is perfect but man is not.
I break religion down into those things essential for salvation and "non-essentials" for salvation. There are a whole lot of things of denominations that are non-assential to salvation. The problem comes when man/denomination puts the ultimatium of "my way or the highway' on these beliefs. You believe like me or you are going to hell. This division is to me the greatest hinderence of local churches and biggest obstacle to attract new members. I do not understand mans mind set that "you must believe like me or you are wrong". I think it takes a mature Christians to overlook these flaws. You can always start an arguement about politics,Ford vs. Chevy or religion.
Paul was quite different in his approach. In first Cor. 9:19 Paul wrote he became" all things to all people so that he might save some". Paul accepted the local practices and went on with his message of "Jesus Christ and him crucified". Paul did not entangle himself in petty non-essential matters as they would detract from his true message. I think we should do the same today.

[wmitty]

Answer to initial question- in one word is “Love”. Men are born from above into the kingdom of God. We don’t choose to be born physically or in “Spirit. God gives the gift of eternal life to whomever He is pleased to give it. It’s a gift! The Son came into this fallen world to live a life of perfect obedience to the Fathers will; even the wrath of God the Father fell on the Son. Jesus willingly bore His Fathers wrath for us! He was completely innocent; we’re the ones who should have been crucified. His perfect obedience was placed to our account when we believe He is from God. And the faith that is required to believe is from God! Eph 2v8 Do I love God the Father and His perfect Son? You better believe I do!

[dverna]

I am going to comment on this post one more time.
There has been a few comments about God's perfection. Matt. 5:48 says God is perfect. Psalms 18:30 says God's way is perfect. Though I may not understand it God's complete plan for mankind existed from day one. Everything God created was perfect. It was man's freewill that allowed man to sin, that introduced sin and death to the world. God is perfect but man is not.
I break religion down into those things essential for salvation and "non-essentials" for salvation. There are a whole lot of things of denominations that are non-assential to salvation. The problem comes when man/denomination puts the ultimatium of "my way or the highway' on these beliefs. You believe like me or you are going to hell. This division is to me the greatest hinderence of local churches and biggest obstacle to attract new members. I do not understand mans mind set that "you must believe like me or you are wrong". I think it takes a mature Christians to overlook these flaws. You can always start an arguement about politics,Ford vs. Chevy or religion.
Paul was quite different in his approach. In first Cor. 9:19 Paul wrote he became" all things to all people so that he might save some". Paul accepted the local practices and went on with his message of "Jesus Christ and him crucified". Paul did not entangle himself in petty non-essential matters as they would detract from his true message. I think we should do the same today.

The passage in Matt 5:48 refers to loving others. There is no question that God’s love is perfect. But that does not extend to conclude everything that God has or will do is perfect. Of course, we can agree to disagree.

Psalms 18:30 speaks of Gods way as perfect. There is no elaboration on exactly what that means. It can be argued that, being unconstrained, everything about God and what He does is perfect. But this was the opinion of David...as God has never proclaimed His perfection. Quoting from the Quest Study Bible “The Psalms are poetry, not doctrinal essays. The palmists frequently were interested in how something felt more than what it meant.....” IMHO not a firm basis for providing the question of perfection.

[1hole]

What is the motivation to do or be good outside of fear? I say fear but my thoughts encompass the idea that all actions good or bad are in some way self serving.
Don't know who or what you are fearing but no one truly comes to a believing faith (trust) in our God from fear; who could fear someone or something they didn't truly believe in? Truth is, it is saved Christians who fear the reality of a physical eternal living he77 apart from all the good things of God, not the lost!