Consistently inconsistent 9mm load results...

[Idaho45guy]

Bought the new Glock G19 Gen 5 MOS for carry and GSSF matches.

Love the ergonomics and for fast combat drills, it is perfect and points extremely well for me.

However, for GSSF indoor matches, where I have to put 10 rounds inside of an 8" circle at 25yds in 15 seconds, accuracy is paramount. My first GSSF gun was a G29 in 10mm, since that was the only Glock I owned. It will do consistent sub 2" groups at 25yds and the occasional 1" group. I bought a G35 just for GSSF and it will do consistent 2" or better groups at 25yds.

But this G19 is consistently inconsistent in it's groups. One load will do 2" or so, and then vary wildly from 2" to 5".

I tried ten new recipes today and around 200 rounds.

I really hate loading for the 9mm as it seems much more finicky and seems impossible to nail down trends. With the 10mm and .40 S&W, I can easily tell which gun prefers heavier bullets and which prefers lighter bullets. With this gun, I was sure it preferred lighter bullets, but then today a 147gr XTP delivered a decent group once or twice, then awful groups later. Same load.

Searched for the most popular and accurate 9mm loads online, and they were mediocre in my gun. But then I'd get a good 2" group and the next two attempts would double that size.

The pistol is equipped with a red dot sight, and that really helped tighten things up. I also installed a Glock (-) connector and now the trigger pull is a decent 4.5lb pull.

Not sure if the inconsistency is in my booger hook, aging eyes, or somewhere in the loads.

The new Gen 5 Glocks have pretty shallow throats, so I've run into issues getting them to plunk with some round nose profiles in larger bullet weights without seating them pretty deep.

But I've also tried 5 different powders, 10 or so different bullets, and various charges and OALs. I still have no idea what the gun likes!!

I thought about maybe decreasing the distance from 25yds to 20yds to see if that would help eliminate the human error factor. Thoughts?

Here are some of the consistently inconsistent results...

147gr XTPs...

233991

233992

233993

124gr XTPs...

233994

[Idaho45guy]

RMR bullets are made locally and I shoot in matches with the owner. I desperately wanted my gun to like his bullets, but not so far...

233995

233996

233997

233998

233999

[JBinMN]

Have you tried getting a baseline of accuracy with a run of factory jacketed rounds from the same maker & not just your reloads?
IF nothing else, that might narrow things down to allow you to find out if it is the reloads, your aging eyes or "booger hook".

If you find that you don't consistently get better with a batch of jacketed factory loads (from the same "lot" to establish some fairly good "consistency" in the projectiles), then, you can start looking at your eyes, trigger control or other factors.
Basically removing one of the factors/variables that you might be having(ammo), to find the main cause. then work on another til you finally find out.

Ya never know, it might be a bit of all of it too.

Hey, just trying to help out. Take it or leave it... LOL
;)

G'Luck & I hope ya get it figured out!
:)

[Idaho45guy]

That's a great suggestion. Back to basics by shooting a string of groups using factory ammo. Will do.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I have a pistol rest that I use during load development. It is not the greatest, but it does lessen the variables to an extent.

[Idaho45guy]

I've been using the same rest and range for the past five years. It's my dad's private range. just

[tazman]

I don't own a Glock so can't comment on that particular weapon. I do own several different 9mm handguns and can comment generally on the cartridge. My 9mm weapons are Beretta, Taurus, Springfield Armory, and S&W.
I always start with a run of factory to see what the gun will do with that ammo and use that as a baseline.
I work with my reloads to see how close I can come or better the factory groups.
In most of my 9mm guns, I have found that they prefer full power, or nearly so, for best accuracy. Lighter loads will function the weapon but seldom produce really good accuracy.
I have a couple of cast loads that will equal the accuracy of factory loads. They are also nearly full power.
I use a lot of RMR bullets and have excellent accuracy with them across all my 9mm guns. I use both their FMJ and plated rounds. The FMJ seem to perform slightly better.

[CJR]

I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

Best regards,

CJR

[Dan Cash]

Have you considered a faulty barrel/slide/frame mating. It sure looks like a problem with the pistol more than ammo, unfortunately, it is also intermittent so very hard to find.

[Idaho45guy]

I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

Best regards,

CJR
I was just using random brass and I think that's a big part of the problem. For my 10mm and .40 loads, I always sort the brass and use the same brand. I haven't been doing that for the 9mm loads. Newbie mistake. Noticed that some bullets were seating easier than others. Duh.

[Idaho45guy]

I assume your first sizing die just resizes and deprimes the case. Does the second die re-expand the case and then bell the case mouth? If the second die is re-expanding the case, I'd suggest reducing the die's re-expanding stem diameter so that the re-expanding portion drops into a sized case without resistance. In other words, the second die should only bell the case and not re-expand the case. I've found that reloading die stem re-expanding diameters vary significantly between different manufacturers. Likewise, I've found that when the bullet re-expands the case, instead of the re-expanding stem, the bullet is more tightly/consistently held to allow proper pressure build-up. A tight case grip on the bullet reduces bullet movement in the case, as the round enters the barrel chamber, and pressures(round to round) are more consistent for better accuracy. Variations in case grip on the bullet and/or bullet movement in the case , during round chambering, causes different peak pressures for each round which in turn affects accuracy.

Best regards,

CJR
I was just using random brass and I think that's a big part of the problem. For my 10mm and .40 loads, I always sort the brass and use the same brand. I haven't been doing that for the 9mm loads. Newbie mistake. Noticed that some bullets were seating easier than others. Duh.

[marek313]

I would definitely sort 9mm brass and only keep major head stamps and remove any wild cards and nato brass. That was never a problem for me with other calibers (40,45,10mm,38/357) but it does make a difference with 9mm. There is a lot packed into that small 9mm cartridge and you dont get a lot of room for error so any inconsistencies will have more effect on 9mm then lets say 45acp.

I shoot RMR 124gr FMJs with no issues but I'm still trying to tighten up my cast 9mms myself. 9mm is challenging to say the least.

[KVO]

Have you considered a faulty barrel/slide/frame mating. It sure looks like a problem with the pistol more than ammo, unfortunately, it is also intermittent so very hard to find.

^ This seems possible given the number of loads you've tried and proven ability with other pistols of this type. I'd compare the slide to barrel hood fit compared to your other pistols and see if it is significantly looser. I had a Glock 22 that was very sloppy, shot 5-8" at 25yd no matter what I tried- until I replaced the barrel. Also look at the crown, a small touch up with some lapping compound may help if there is a burr or otherwise damaged. Also see if the chamber and throat appear to be concentric with the bore. I had a poorly performing aftermarket barrel from KKM with a visually off center chamber. Exchanged for a new one and groups shrank considerably.

[megasupermagnum]

If you figure it out let us know. I was helping someone with the same problem on a Glock 34. It too helped greatly to put on a red dot sight. The original sights were shifting each shot. Still, groups were up to 6". Visibly there was nothing wrong with the barrel, however, I am not familiar with Glock. After trying dozens of factory loads, even went so far as loading .357" bullets, still nothing. Glock requires the pistol be looked at by one of their local Armorers, so it can be verified that it needs to be sent to the factory, or can be repaired on the spot. He took it to a "Glock Armorer" who muttered something about a locking block. They then went into his garage, and shot free hand from WAY back, a massive 21 feet, and the expert shot a 5+" group. Claiming his $3000 S&W could do no better, the Armorer refused to repair it. That pistol got sold before we could figure out what was wrong.

I've got nothing against Glock, just the egg head who shot that gun and thinks it's ok. My recommendation is to check that it is locking up the same every time. How that is done, I'm not quite sure.

[Idaho45guy]

If you figure it out let us know. I was helping someone with the same problem on a Glock 34. It too helped greatly to put on a red dot sight. The original sights were shifting each shot. Still, groups were up to 6". Visibly there was nothing wrong with the barrel, however, I am not familiar with Glock. After trying dozens of factory loads, even went so far as loading .357" bullets, still nothing. Glock requires the pistol be looked at by one of their local Armorers, so it can be verified that it needs to be sent to the factory, or can be repaired on the spot. He took it to a "Glock Armorer" who muttered something about a locking block. They then went into his garage, and shot free hand from WAY back, a massive 21 feet, and the expert shot a 5+" group. Claiming his $3000 S&W could do no better, the Armorer refused to repair it. That pistol got sold before we could figure out what was wrong.

I've got nothing against Glock, just the egg head who shot that gun and thinks it's ok. My recommendation is to check that it is locking up the same every time. How that is done, I'm not quite sure.

It's funny, I moved from Glocks 20 years ago and found I liked other platforms better. Loved the S&W M&P series. Then I moved back to Idaho and was looking for a woods carry pistol and the Glock G29 10mm seemed perfect. Bought one and was amazed at the great trigger and accuracy. So I bought another Glock; a Gen 4 G19 and got rid of it after struggling with mediocre groups. Bought a G35 for GSSF matches and it's not bad, but not as good as my G29...

234038

[Idaho45guy]

Glocks are frustrating in that they are pretty inconsistent in their accuracy and trigger feel. I was told that the Gen 5 Glocks are much better in those regards. My Gen 5 came with a decent trigger, and is teasing me with the occasional impressive group. So I think I just need to tighten things up a bit with my reloads and learn to be happy with around 2" at 25yds.

[dverna]

It is a Glock and not an accurized 1911. Expecting much under 3” at 25 yards is unrealistic IMO.

6” groups are unacceptable. I would go to the Glock forum to seek help with evaluating the pistol after shooting a few different factory loads to establish a base line. If it shoots 6” groups with factory ammunition, there is a gun problem.

The wide variation in groups points to inconsistent return to battery.....as my best guess.

[Drm50]

Several years back I got a Browning HP Comp model, FN. I have loaded 9mm once in a while but always with jacketed bullets. 9mm was so cheap that it was easier to buy ammo and about as cheap as loading it. This HP
shots extremely well so I bought 3 molds and several different cast bullets and decided I was going to come up
with a killer target load. When through all these bullets and some 38/357 bullets. Fooled with different size dies and didn't find a cast load that would outshoot plain old Win white box. Several guys have had me try their pet
9mm loads. They are shooting Glocks, M&Ps and stuff like that. None of these loads shot in my pistol. I never did find a cast load for it. I shoot my own cast in 32 thru 45 in revolvers and they are target quality loads. Several of my S&Ws have never had a jacketed bullet in them. So it's not like it's my 1st rodeo but this HP has
me buffaloed on cast.

[Tom W.]

I couldn't hit where I was aiming with my Glock 19. Everything was low and left, no matter what I did. The Glock 17 was very accurate, but I ended up getting rid of all of my Glocks and got a CZ 75 SP01. It shoots .357 diameter boolits quite well, even at 25 yards. .358 boolits not so much. After two or three it will jam. I will always say that the Glocks shot whatever I feed them without hesitation, jams or stovepipes. Buy I just couldn't get used to the striker fired pistol and the long reset. My little Ruger LC9s Pro is striker fired, but has a really light trigger, and is great. The only other striker fired pistol is a Ruger 22/45, and it's in a class by itself.

[ReloaderFred]

Several years back I got a Browning HP Comp model, FN. I have loaded 9mm once in a while but always with jacketed bullets. 9mm was so cheap that it was easier to buy ammo and about as cheap as loading it. This HP
shots extremely well so I bought 3 molds and several different cast bullets and decided I was going to come up
with a killer target load. When through all these bullets and some 38/357 bullets. Fooled with different size dies and didn't find a cast load that would outshoot plain old Win white box. Several guys have had me try their pet
9mm loads. They are shooting Glocks, M&Ps and stuff like that. None of these loads shot in my pistol. I never did find a cast load for it. I shoot my own cast in 32 thru 45 in revolvers and they are target quality loads. Several of my S&Ws have never had a jacketed bullet in them. So it's not like it's my 1st rodeo but this HP has
me buffaloed on cast.

I've slugged the barrels on a couple of Browning High Powers and they both slugged at .358". You might try slugging that High Power barrel and see what it actually is, diameter wise.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[JBinMN]

I have seen "baseline"( a "benchmark") to work from, suggested 3 times in the now 21 posts before this one. Tazman, Dverna & me, each mentioned it. Doing so removes any doubts you may have with any reloads you have tried & likely is how Glock was expecting the firearm to be used. If the firearm behaves the same, or near same as the reloads you have tried, you can discount that the reloads have any major effect( from reloads possible) on the accuracy & work on other variables like you mentioned, Trigger control & finger placement, vision, stance , etc..

I'm not knocking anyone else advice/suggestions. Just trying to help get you to possibly eliminate one factor/variable, so you can then focus on others. If you are going to continue to use the same reloads, but the issue is one of the other factors/variables, how easy is it going to be to establish a "baseline" with those?

I.D.-ing the easiest to check , least expensive & one having a single common effect on your accuracy is just what is laving the firearm & going down range. If you can establish that it is the reloads, and the groups tighten up with factory to meet your expectation, then you do not have to consider the other factors/variables so much, since the groups tightened up with factory, now you need to work on the reloads to get them to give you factory performance.

If using factory as a baseline using the same other factors/variables as before, and you still get less than desired accuracy, then you can mostly eliminate you reloads as much of an issue & begin to look at the other factors/variables, like trigger control/finger position , eyesight/ sights, sight picture/alignment, etc..
But at least you would now know it is NOT the factory or reloads causing most of your accuracy issues...Or, at least to a lesser degree than the unknown before getting a baseline on the type of rounds fired...

Just mentioning that since it a is new/fairly new pistol, it may be just fine mechanically, and firing off a box or two, or more of factory jacketed rounds, (at or very near your "targeted" cast boolit grain weight), either off a sandbag or two/bench, or at least the most stable platform you can come up with & shooting for accuracy with those factory ( same lot#) rounds, will at least establish if you need to look at other things.

I will shut up now, since I feel as though I am repeating myself. I do know if it was "me", I would be shooting those factory rounds as a K.I.S.S. way of "knowing" that I need or do not need to look at other things for either being the whole, or part of the issue. Eliminating one of the simple things first.

Heck, I may just delete this post, but I am gonna think on it. I don't know if I am getting my thoughts into words well enough, and I may be waiting my time.
:???:

G'Luck! regardless! Go shoot!
;)

[Groo]

Groo here
9mm is famious for case thickness variations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#1 sort brass, #2 set bullet size to brass.[thicker brass smaller bullet]
You are having problems with bullet pull and case length.
Try this ,,, Pull barrel,,sort brass,,, seat bullet long,,, drop into barrel,, seat bullet shorter until case is even with barrel hood.[extention at chamber end of barrel]
this will seat all shells to the same head space and help with speed variations.
Old 45 match shooters trick.

[Idaho45guy]

I have seen "baseline"( a "benchmark") to work from, suggested 3 times in the now 21 posts before this one. Tazman, Dverna & me, each mentioned it.

I will shut up now, since I feel as though I am repeating myself. I do know if it was "me", I would be shooting those factory rounds as a K.I.S.S. way of "knowing" that I need or do not need to look at other things for either being the whole, or part of the issue. Eliminating one of the simple things first.

Heck, I may just delete this post, but I am gonna think on it. I don't know if I am getting my thoughts into words well enough, and I may be waiting my time.
:???:

G'Luck! regardless! Go shoot!
;)

Yeah, you suggested that yesterday and I agreed that I would do that, as well as start sorting brass for reloads. But, I work. In fact, I work 12hr shifts and for the next four days, will be working those 12hr shifts and don't have time to drive to the range.

I'm not discounting anyone's advice and in fact have found it be very helpful. But I'm not retired and work long hours and getting to the range is not a priority.

[JBinMN]

Yeah, you suggested that yesterday and I agreed that I would do that, as well as start sorting brass for reloads. But, I work. In fact, I work 12hr shifts and for the next four days, will be working those 12hr shifts and don't have time to drive to the range.

I'm not discounting anyone's advice and in fact have found it be very helpful. But I'm not retired and work long hours and getting to the range is not a priority.

I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression. I think you must have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was only trying to once again reiterate that the old,KISS adage of trying to do the baseline first before following everyone of the other suggestions, which are all great ones, but I was concerned that all of the suggestions may be overwhelming, as well as since you mentioned shooting matches in the OP, I thought maybe this might be a priority for you to figure something out quickly before the next match.

I certainly understand about working long hours, plus running my own business for many years sometimes you work even longer than everybody else does just to keep the wheels rolling.

So, do what you can when you can and I hope you figure things out.


G’Luck!

[Petrol & Powder]

The advice to get a good baseline is solid advice.
I also think the OP may be setting the bar a little high for that particular pistol. The 9mm is capable of outstanding accuracy but there are limits. A Glock Model 19 is a fine combat pistol (one of my favorites) but it is optimized as a combat pistol. That doesn't mean it is incapable of decent accuracy but it does mean that it's not a target pistol.

[Idaho45guy]

Picked up a new powder tonight to try. Power Pistol from Alliant. Heard good things about it. Will get some new loads created tonight from matching brass and then go to the range tomorrow before my shift to shoot a couple boxes of factory stuff to set a baseline, then try the new recipes with the sorted brass.

I have a match on Saturday, so hopefully will have time to crank out at least 50 rounds of accurate reloads.

[tazman]

I have heard good things about Power Pistol as well though I have not tried any yet.
I am looking forward to your report.

[megasupermagnum]

Good luck with that power pistol, it's a consistent poor performer for me to where it may as well get dumped out. I tried to pawn if off on a friend who (loading 9mm) also found it poor. Great if you like flash and boom, bad if you like accuracy. CFE pistol, 800x, or Unique are better ways to go.

[Idaho45guy]

Good luck with that power pistol, it's a consistent poor performer for me to where it may as well get dumped out. I tried to pawn if off on a friend who (loading 9mm) also found it poor. Great if you like flash and boom, bad if you like accuracy. CFE pistol, 800x, or Unique are better ways to go.


Yours is the first negative feedback I've seen on it.

[megasupermagnum]

I know, it's a running joke between my buddy and I. We didn't just try it once and give up. He loads jacketed bullets almost exclusively, and tried it in 9mm, 10mm, 45 acp, and 357 mag at a minimum. I load cast bullets almost exclusively, and tried it in 327 federal, 45 acp, 357 mag, 41 mag, and 44 mag. I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Some, maybe most powders provide so-so accuracy, and once in a while you find a gem that shoots great. Power pistol is consistently the worst accuracy of any powder I've tried, and some times you find one that is comically bad.

This is only two guys' experience, but I find it funny that it is so universally heralded as a good accuracy powder. It probably shoots just fine offhand at 7 yards as so many seem to do, but bench shooting at 25 or 50 yards, it is not good. Note that you will never find a picture of a group even claimed to be shot with power pistol.

Also, it could be a difference in what we call "accuracy". For me, I need multiple 5 shot groups, and I test at 50 yards. From a semi-auto, 4" is my benchmark, for a revolver 3" is good, but I am trying to cut that down more.

[Idaho45guy]

Good news and bad news... Good news is that Power Pistol delivered some excellent groups, bad news is that it has the most "shock and awe" of any powder I've tried. Shooting mild 9mm loads with Power Pistol is like shooting medium .40 S&W loads.

The other good/bad news is that I found a factory load that is nearly as accurate as the Power Pistol loads with much reduced recoil and blast. It was $8 a box of 50 at WalMart if I recall correctly. Bad news is that reloading 9mm now makes very little sense. I shot four groups of five of the Federal Brass 9mm 115gr RN and everyone was acceptable.

Shot four groups of five of Remington UMC 115gr RN and they were consistently larger.

I started testing at a shorter distance of 20yds to eliminate any of my vision issues and the groups got a little smaller. Will be going back to 25yds next trip now that I know what works.

My most accurate reload was using 115gr XTPs and 5.5gr of Power Pistol...

234627

But it wasn't much better than the Federal cheapo stuff...

234628

[Petrol & Powder]

You may be setting the bar a little high.

The pistol is clearly capable of good groups at 25 yards (75 feet) with factory ammo as your groups prove. Your only decision is do you want to buy factory ammo that your pistol likes or do you want to spend the time to reload and make comparable ammo?

A good compromise may be to buy a case of the ammo that shoots well and save the brass from that lot for reloading. You'll get consistent, once-fired brass, all from the same manufacturer. After you shoot that for a while you can decide if it's economically viable to reload or if you're better off with cheap factory ammo.

[Petrol & Powder]

And by the way, 1" groups at 25 yards from a combat pistol with a 4" barrel is pretty GOOD !

[tazman]

My experience with the Federal 115 fmj factory loads mirrors yours. Excellent accuracy.
Also the price is great.
If you don't load cast boolits for 9mm, reloading doesn't save you much money. By the time you factor in your time, buying new is at least break even compared to reloading.
Excellent groups, by the way. Good shooting.

[Sig556r]

My experience with the Federal 115 fmj factory loads mirrors yours. Excellent accuracy.
Also the price is great.
If you don't load cast boolits for 9mm, reloading doesn't save you much money. By the time you factor in your time, buying new is at least break even compared to reloading.
Excellent groups, by the way. Good shooting.

Agree...seen brass-cased East-Euro 115g fmjs on clearance for like $6.99/box of 50...that's less than 13c ea!
I still load heavy subs though, >158g, those are still worth reloading.

[megasupermagnum]

Very nice. That is the first legitimate good Power Pistol group I have seen. Shock and Awe is about right.