Winchester 1886 45-70 and Lead Bullet Composition

[Just Duke]

Well I'm in this deep so I am looking at shooting BP out of one of my 1886 Winchester/Miroku's. This will be the solid frame and I will be sending it to Turnbulls to have the Marbles tang sight attached or possibly if someone knows of a better sight. My question is do I use the same 20-1 mix for the 485 grain NEI like I would in a Sharps?
TIA,
Duke

[wills]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/KEL86SGBASE.jpg

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/KEL86SSG.jpg

Base and add a staff or complete sight

[Just Duke]

WOW! THANKS Wills! , that looks better than the Marbles! Way more adjustments. Is that particulair sight for the 1886? Cost or link?

[montana_charlie]

My question is do I use the same 20-1 mix for the 485 grain NEI like I would in a Sharps?
Soft alloy is good for any cartridge using black powder.
The only 485 grain .45 bullet I see in the NEI catalog is #346F. That nose won't work in a lever gun unless you load them one at a time.
CM

[Just Duke]

MC, mine feed in both the Marlin and the Winchester

[wills]

WOW! THANKS Wills! , that looks better than the Marbles! Way more adjustments. Is that particulair sight for the 1886? Cost or link?

Not cheap

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6245.html

[Just Duke]

Ouch! Looks like it wont't fit pistol grips. The one in the link says straight grip

[Jon K]

Soft alloy is good for any cartridge using black powder.
The only 485 grain .45 bullet I see in the NEI catalog is #346F. That nose won't work in a lever gun unless you load them one at a time.
CM


Charlie,

Look at this post, it's a 3 GG FN GC Boolit.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36404

Although, if it was me, I think I'd opt for the Lyman Goulds 457122 in the levergun, mine drops @342 gr (25:1)

Jon

[Just Duke]

That's the one Jon! cool!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/027-1.jpg

[Just Duke]

Charlie,



Although, if it was me, I think I'd opt for the Lyman Goulds 457122 in the levergun, mine drops @342 gr (25:1)

Jon


342 gr. Really? LOL!


















http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee247/jpomazi/Kodiak092.jpg

[wills]

How about this one
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6267.html

and look through the riflesmith sights, someof them say for the 86 but dont specify straight or pistol grip.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,275.html

and if you are going to send it to Turnbull, he can probably find one that fits, or make one of them fit

[Just Duke]

Looks like straight stock and pisol grip stocks are the same.
Here is my fav. http://www.montanavintagearms.com/mva_sight_bases2soule.html
They make one so to not cover the safety but I want to cover that freakin safety. Looks like they make a regular one for the straight stock also. Thatl'l cover that goofy safety. ;)
Thanks again Wills. Give me a jingle sometime. :-D

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,

Look at this post, it's a 3 GG FN GC Boolit.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36404

I see what you mean, Jon.
The catalog number which most resembles those is NEI's #344D. That one is listed as a 405 grain design...which seems closer to reality for a lever action.
CM

[Just Duke]

I see what you mean, Jon.
The catalog number which most resembles those is NEI's #344D. That one is listed as a 405 grain design...which seems closer to reality for a lever action.
CM

Check this thread. ;)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=27620

[Just Duke]

Comes out to 485 grain on the scale for some reason.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-440-GC.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/NEI45-70MOULD.jpg

[Just Duke]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/KEL86SGBASE.jpg

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/KEL86SSG.jpg

Base and add a staff or complete sight


I like the brass and case hardening. $480.00 :shock:

How is the quaility of the Kelly?

[Just Duke]

How about this one
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6267.html

and look through the riflesmith sights, someof them say for the 86 but dont specify straight or pistol grip.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,275.html

and if you are going to send it to Turnbull, he can probably find one that fits, or make one of them fit



I just talked to the nice lady that owns Axtell Arms/Rifle Smith sights they claim their sight are and exact reproduction.
http://www.riflesmith.com/sightswinchester.html
#6AW This is priced right! :)

[Nazgul]

I've purchased from Axtel Arms before, they are first class.

Don

[Just Duke]

Oh! Duh! The NEI 485 grain mould is a gas checked. :groner: What was I thinking. :roll:
A 405 grain Saeco 2 cavity FPFB #018 arrived today. So I will give these a try.

[Just Duke]

Oh! Duh! The NEI 485 grain mould is a gas checked. :groner: What was I thinking. :roll:
A 405 grain Saeco 2 cavity FPFB #018 arrived today. So I will give these a try.

Looks like the nose is to long. :roll: I'll use it in my Sharps.
What should I use?.............

[Jon K]

Duke,

The Lyman 457193, that you have will also work. Tthe one I had would drop @427 grains in 20:1.

Jon

[EDK]

You need to get a copy of Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST and read up on 1886 45/70s....save yourself some time and money by NOT getting boolit moulds that won't work in your guns!

If gas checks are not a problem, the RCBS in 300, 405 and 500 grain flat nose all have the same nose profile. I use the 300s in several MARLIN 1895 Cowboys. Lyman has 3 plain base designs in Midway's catalog. THEN you can look over the custom guys' offerings.

Axtell/Riflesmith makes some great sights...and 1877 pattern Sharps rifles to boot...my brother bought one from Miss Carmen at Quigley. I have Montana Vintage Arms #107 on my SHILOH SHARPS and a spare #130 staff fitted to the base for short range. You might look at their web site or call and ask their advice on the tang sight....and look at the Hadley style eyedisc they make also.

I have no experience with some of the other items. I can only comment on the ones I've used....and would recommend or buy again myself.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Just Duke]

You need to get a copy of Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST and read up on 1886 45/70s....save yourself some time and money by NOT getting boolit moulds that won't work in your guns!

If gas checks are not a problem, the RCBS in 300, 405 and 500 grain flat nose all have the same nose profile. I use the 300s in several MARLIN 1895 Cowboys. Lyman has 3 plain base designs in Midway's catalog. THEN you can look over the custom guys' offerings.

Axtell/Riflesmith makes some great sights...and 1877 pattern Sharps rifles to boot...my brother bought one from Miss Carmen at Quigley. I have Montana Vintage Arms #107 on my SHILOH SHARPS and a spare #130 staff fitted to the base for short range. You might look at their web site or call and ask their advice on the tang sight....and look at the Hadley style eyedisc they make also.

I have no experience with some of the other items. I can only comment on the ones I've used....and would recommend or buy again myself.
I use the 485 grain NEI in my other 5 45-70's but they are smokless dedicated.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:


I have all Mikes books on the way. Mail is slow where we are.
I have GC bullets that work and don't want to use GC's with BP.
One can't hve to many moulds.
I have already benn to the sight talked to Axtell about the correct sight. Again she was very pleasant.

[Just Duke]

Duke,

The Lyman 457193, that you have will also work. Tthe one I had would drop @427 grains in 20:1.

Jon


Cool! and thanks Jon. Also thanks for all the help and the phone chats! :drinks:
Now you see why I bought so much tin. lol
What do the numbers all mean Jon? The guy that I trade with threw several moulds in because I sent him a whole lot of extras.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/009-2.jpg

[Just Duke]

The top one is a SOLID FRAME and is going to be dedicated to BP. It is also the one I would put the tang sight on and cover up that goofy safety after I remove it.

The bottom two are TAKE DOWNS and are smokeless dedicated.
They look real pretty now but after a few trips in a scabbard.... well..... it's just a tool! ;)
I am looking for an EL for the wife also.
I have shot the top two. The bottom one still has the sticker on it and has been deemed MY SPARE! LOL and was to be sent out for a 50-110 or 50 AK conversion. I'm still thinking though. :roll:



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/L63.jpg

[McLintock]

Have you tried a gas check bullet with black powder, I'm getting by far my best accuracy in my 38-55 '94 with the Lyman 375449 gas checked bullet and Swiss 1.5. It's head and shoulders over any plain based bullet and wad combo I've tried. I just ordered one of Boomer Mikey's 405 gr group buy gas checked moulds to try in my Browning '86 for this reason. Haven't been too successful so far with a plain base bullet.
McLintock

[Just Duke]

I have a 5 cavity NEI GC 5 cavity.
Bill Bagwell advised me not to mix copper anything and black powder. Don't remember why.
That's a cool avitar pic Mclintock. Any chance of a larger one? I'm going to start a new thread for that.

[McLintock]

Yeah, I've got the original pic on a DVD; it was taken at the SASS Winter Range match in 2004 during the Single Shot Long Range Side Match. The professional photographer doing the whole match took it and several others during my single shot and lever gun 10 shot runs. He got some good ones.
I've talked about using a gas checked bullet with black powder on several forums like BPCR.net and nobody's ever said anything about a problem in doing it. Also, I have lots of books and articles on black powder shooting and haven't noticed anything contrary; so, I guess I did'nt know enough to not do it. Works for me so I'll keep doing it I guess.
McLintock

[barefooter175]

Are there any known issues with the Browning 1886 not stabilizing cast bullets? I am not looking to shoot the long 500's obviously, but want to stay in the 350-450 range.

[Just Duke]

Are there any known issues with the Browning 1886 not stabilizing cast bullets? I am not looking to shoot the long 500's obviously, but want to stay in the 350-450 range.


That is all relative to rate of twist. Most I have talked to use 405's and or 450 to 500 grainer with great success. Myself, I would not shoot anything lighter than 405.

[barefooter175]

I have 350's and 405's that I will be testing. This is the first serious testing I will be doing with this gun. I sized samples of each at .458 and .459". Any idea what this gun likes best?

[cajun shooter]

Mclintock, for what it's worth, as Duke stated BP and copper don't mix. The man he talked about Bill Bagwell is one of the most knowledgeable persons around when it comes to the "HOLY BLACK". I would heed the advise as Duke is right on. Later and good shooting to aaaall Y'ALLLLL

[45 2.1]

I am looking for an EL for the wife also.

I know where an 1886 extra lite is sitting. PM me if you want contact info.

[Gellot Wilde]

How is the quaility of the Kelly?

Superb...I have one of the L/R Soule sights and it functions flawlessly, looks great too. Very smooth operation on the elevation and windage due to those silicone bronze bearings. Kinda like the browned staff too, gives it that old world look along with the case colours straight out the box.