1891 small frame 38

[Traffer]

Hi folks,
I have acquired an old Forehand Arms 1891 Double Action S&W 38. I want to be able to shoot with it. After doing quite a bit of research there are still many unanswered questions.
I intend to make all my own dies to reload for this. I would like to know what would be the best size and weight and style bullet to make (I swage lead bullets...making all the molds etc.,) My initial ideas are to make a simple round nose PC'd hollow based boolit of about 80 grains. But not sure what diameter to make it. (bore has yet to be slugged) ...any suggestions would be appreciated.
The cylinder front to back play is excessive. Someone filed or stoned the cog thingy when bubba-ing it. I measured the gap at the forcing cone at .018" with a feeler gauge. I figure I will have to make some type of spacer or way to reduce that gap. Again suggestions appreciated.
I got the action to run smooth EXCEPT for the trigger return spring. I believe the spring in it when I got it was way out of spec. It took two hands to pull it in double action and both hands to cock the hammer for single action. With the return spring out it is slick. The spring was so tight that it had forced a bend into the trigger guard. It was either installed wrong. (I tried to install it several different ways to no avail) Or the spring was way to heavy and big. I broke the spring trying to compress it. (a simple "v" shaped spring). Now I am in need of a spring AND the knowhow to modify it and install it properly. THIS is perhaps my greatest need, since the gun cannot be finished until this is corrected. i have ordered a "set" of springs from Wolf to try and get the right one to use...but they are on back order. I would like to cancel that order since I will never use the rest of the springs in the purchase.
Last but not least. What would be a recommended load for this old gun. I only have experience in reloading 22lr.
And Thanks Very kindly to "Bullet Maker 57" for sending me a bag full of good usable brass for this gun.
This video was made before I broke the trigger return spring that was in there.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/pxCrydPYQ-O29MsBkpAfpQ.I61vX-OGUSe_NMTylhxQI5

[crankycalico]

the fact that there is so much SAFETY issues with the cylinder,,,, lets just leave it as a nice paper weight you can use to scare the next boy your daughters bring home.

[Traffer]

the fact that there is so much SAFETY issues with the cylinder,,,, lets just leave it as a nice paper weight you can use to scare the next boy your daughters bring home.
The only issue with the cylinder is .018" end shake. Otherwise the cylinder is in perfect shape. Where did you read "so much SAFETY issues with the cylinder..."? I don't recall writing that anywhere.

[dubber123]

broken springs are pretty common on this type of gun, I've fiddled with old Iver Johnsons and H&Rs a bit, and they are similar. As far as the barrel cylinder gap, it was likely produced when black powder was the common propellant, and they left gaps on the large side to deal with fouling.

I would slug the throats before picking a boolit, if its in .38 S&W, I am betting the throats are in the .362"+ range.

[Traffer]

broken springs are pretty common on this type of gun, I've fiddled with old Iver Johnsons and H&Rs a bit, and they are similar. As far as the barrel cylinder gap, it was likely produced when black powder was the common propellant, and they left gaps on the large side to deal with fouling.

I would slug the throats before picking a boolit, if its in .38 S&W, I am betting the throats are in the .362"+ range.

If the throats slug at .362" what size bullet would be good. Wouldn't the normal .002" over size create a lot of pressure for this old gun? I am planning to be shooting at about 500fps to 600fps with an 80grain slug.

[rintinglen]

My experience in the 38 S&W is limited to 358-477 150 grain SWC's, sized .360, over 2,4 grains of Bullseye. That goes bang in my grandfather's old Forehand and Wadsworth and actually shoots reasonably well considering the heavy trigger pull. I got parts years ago from Numrich, so you might want to check E-Gunparts, the on line successor of Numrich.

[Traffer]

My experience in the 38 S&W is limited to 358-477 150 grain SWC's, sized .360, over 2,4 grains of Bullseye. That goes bang in my grandfather's old Forehand and Wadsworth and actually shoots reasonably well considering the heavy trigger pull. I got parts years ago from Numrich, so you might want to check E-Gunparts, the on line successor of Numrich.

Thank you very much. Yes Forehand & Wadsworth is actually the same gun. As I understand the company changed names during the time of this design. I had not looked to Numerich under the name Forehand & Wadsworth...will do that.
I was wondering if it would sling those heavier slugs well. Now I know. I'm looking forward to shooting this.

[rintinglen]

The standard bullet weight in the 38 S&W was 146 grains for many years, with the occasional 200 grain bullet to make the Brits happy. Your projected 80 grain ball would seem to be pretty light, and will likely shoot pretty far from POA. I think I'd plan on a 125-147 grain boolit , sized .360-.362, but understanding that your gun will tell you what it needs.

[dubber123]

As the fellows noted, 146 grains was pretty standard for .38 S&W. Occasionally an original mold shows up, or you get lucky and find an old Lyman or Ideal that will cast that fat, but most will be a bit on the small side. I have a custom cut LEE that makes the right diameter and weight boolit. I'll send you some if you would like.

[crankycalico]

well considering that over the history of the 38 Smith and Wesson, that only Smith and Wesson used the genuine .361 diameter for the barrel..... your gun has seen a lot of factory ammo loaded with a .358 slug

[Traffer]

As the fellows noted, 146 grains was pretty standard for .38 S&W. Occasionally an original mold shows up, or you get lucky and find an old Lyman or Ideal that will cast that fat, but most will be a bit on the small side. I have a custom cut LEE that makes the right diameter and weight boolit. I'll send you some if you would like.

Thank you very kindly for that offer. Hopefully I am going to make a core mold and swage to .361". That way I can powder coat them before swaging and end up with a precise concentric powder coated .361" boolit. But in the case that it takes a long time to develop the swaging setup, I will contact you to test some of your nice custom bullets.
I still want to slug the bore first...is it standard to go with .002" over groove diameter?
Another question: was this cartridge ever sold with a rebated bullet? Like when it was first developed? I know that the rimfire versions were probably rebated but don't know about the center fire. I ask because I also have the capability of creating a heeled bullet for this caliber.

A BIG THANKS to "rintinglen"...I ended up finding a trigger spring from Numrich after looking it up under Forehand and Wadsworth instead of just Forehand Arms. Now I can get the proper spring in there... Any input on the "cylinder shake" of .018"? It appears that it would be difficult to use a spacer or washer or shim on this little gun because of the small contact surface between the cog for turning the cylinder and the frame. I haven't figured out how to do that yet.

[dubber123]

I can't say I ever slugged any of my .38 S&W's, I just always sized to cylinder throat dimensions. I have shot .006" over bore in other guns with no ill effects, I personally don't get too wound up over it, especially with the soft alloys I usually cast for this caliber. Slugging yours certainly won't hurt though, and more information beats less.

I have checked S&W's, both old break tops and newer solid frame guns, and quite a few old Iver Johnsons, all were .361"+. The only gun I ever saw tighter than that was a Colt. Yours may be different.

As an aside, do you have the right dies and brass? It is NOT just a short 38 Spl case. Measuring a factory case tells me it is meant for a larger diameter boolit too, as the OD of the case is a good bit bigger than the Spl.

[Traffer]

I can't say I ever slugged any of my .38 S&W's, I just always sized to cylinder throat dimensions. I have shot .006" over bore in other guns with no ill effects, I personally don't get too wound up over it, especially with the soft alloys I usually cast for this caliber. Slugging yours certainly won't hurt though, and more information beats less.

I have checked S&W's, both old break tops and newer solid frame guns, and quite a few old Iver Johnsons, all were .361"+. The only gun I ever saw tighter than that was a Colt. Yours may be different.

As an aside, do you have the right dies and brass? It is NOT just a short 38 Spl case. Measuring a factory case tells me it is meant for a larger diameter boolit too, as the OD of the case is a good bit bigger than the Spl.
I'm going to make my own dies for reloading it.
I have a bunch of used cases and I will find the perfect sized ones and make the dies accordingly. Everything is going to be custom tailored to the cylinder bore.
I also find it interesting that 9mm cartridges fit perfectly into this gun.

[Traffer]

broken springs are pretty common on this type of gun, I've fiddled with old Iver Johnsons and H&Rs a bit, and they are similar. As far as the barrel cylinder gap, it was likely produced when black powder was the common propellant, and they left gaps on the large side to deal with fouling.

I would slug the throats before picking a boolit, if its in .38 S&W, I am betting the throats are in the .362"+ range.
I slugged the gun... I am perplexed... I do not know enough about these revolvers to know if this is in spec or something crazy is going on here...
The throat of the bore is dramatically tapered. At the very beginning of the forcing cone it is .3780" then within about 1/8" it tapers down to the bore size ...Which slugs at .357" at the groove and .353" on the lands. I have taken some pictures to show how that taper is "ground". Don't know if this is from the factory or if it was bubba'd. It was pretty easy to pound a soft, powder coated .3585" -.359" boolit through the barrel.
The diameter of the cylinder bores at the forcing cone is .383"
234057234058234059

[dubber123]

Some of the less expensive guns had cylinders that were basically bored straight through, no real "cylinder throat" to speak of, and it sounds like you may have one. With the chamber mouths that big, you may have better luck with a very soft hollow base wadcutter than you will with a solid booit design. I got decent accuracy from an old IJ break top years ago that way.

[uscra112]

Might be time to look for information on how to make flat and vee springs. The muzzleloader people are the place to go. Maybe Dixie or Track of the Wolf. It's not terribly hard, once you have the right steel, which can be purchased from Brownells. (I think that's where my selection came from.) McMaster might also have suitable flat stock. Worst comes to worst, you can anneal an old file. (That's what the colonial-era gunsmiths did.) Small springs I have sometimes made from an old clock spring.

[Traffer]

Might be time to look for information on how to make flat and vee springs. The muzzleloader people are the place to go. Maybe Dixie or Track of the Wolf. It's not terribly hard, once you have the right steel, which can be purchased from Brownells. (I think that's where my selection came from.) McMaster might also have suitable flat stock. Worst comes to worst, you can anneal an old file. (That's what the colonial-era gunsmiths did.) Small springs I have sometimes made from an old clock spring.
I found a used spring from the exact gun (so I know it's the right spring) for $10 shipped from Numrich. Waiting for it to arrive.

[Traffer]

Some of the less expensive guns had cylinders that were basically bored straight through, no real "cylinder throat" to speak of, and it sounds like you may have one. With the chamber mouths that big, you may have better luck with a very soft hollow base wadcutter than you will with a solid booit design. I got decent accuracy from an old IJ break top years ago that way.

This is the current design of the bullet. It is 125 grain .359" with grooves swaged out. The appearance of grooves is powder coat thicker where the grooves were. I could change the shape of the hollow base, making it more like a Minie' Ball.
234107

[uscra112]

Granted that you're into swaging, but a ramble thru the NOE online catalog will find you a mould for the right bullet.

[Traffer]

Speaking of making your own springs...
I was at the hardware store recently looking for something that I could modify into that spring (before finding one at Numrich) . The guy who was helping me used to work for a machine shop that subbed Smith & Wesson parts. He said that he had made springs from band saw blades. He even said that a person could heat treat them with a propane torch.
That would seem to be a good knowledge to have... will have to do some research on that.

[Traffer]

Granted that you're into swaging, but a ramble thru the NOE online catalog will find you a mould for the right bullet.

I am finding it really easy to make swaging dies for these things...so for me it is easier to experiment with that. Can change the shape, size, base etc., pretty easy. Any mold close to the right size can be used "as long as the diameter is a little smaller than the final boolit." That way I can powder coat before swaging and the final result doesn't have to be either lubed or powder coated.
The question that remains on this is, what shape and thickness would I want the base to be able to best obturate to form some kind of gas seal for this situation? It would seem that with such a big difference between the bore diameter of the cylinder and the bore of the gun, this thing is gonna lose a lot of gas any way I do it.

[uscra112]

Yes, that's true, but you have to get the CHEAP blades. For decades now we've had "bimetal" blades that have a flexible low-carbon back, and only the teeth are high-carbon and hardened. Ditto hacksaw blades. Anneal them if you need a very sharp bend, bend it up, then heat to orange in a torch and plunge into a can of old motor oil. Using oil cools them just that little bit slower, and you may not have to temper after hardening.

[NorthMoccasin]

Are the charge holes in the Cyl bored the SAME diameter all the way through or is there a step of smaller diameter?

[Traffer]

Are the charge holes in the Cyl bored the SAME diameter all the way through or is there a step of smaller diameter?

The holes are the same bore through the cylinder.

[Traffer]

I just removed the grooves on a 120 gn .358" RN mold. It is up to 130gn now. Gonna take it to 146 gn. Also going to open up the swaging die to .361" That should work well for these 38 S&W rounds. I hope also someday to make a rifle barrel for this cartridge to use in a converted 12 GA break open single shot rifle. Like the "Rook Rifle" on another thread.

[Traffer]

I also noticed from the "not impressed with Heritage Rough Rider" thread that those 22 revolvers are also bored straight through the cylinder with a gaping forcing cone. This relieves my concern about this old 1881 revolver. It it works on the Rough Rider, it should work on the Forehand Arms revolver.

[Traffer]

Speaking of making your own springs...
I was at the hardware store recently looking for something that I could modify into that spring (before finding one at Numrich) . The guy who was helping me used to work for a machine shop that subbed Smith & Wesson parts. He said that he had made springs from band saw blades. He even said that a person could heat treat them with a propane torch.
That would seem to be a good knowledge to have... will have to do some research on that.
Oops. I bored out the mold a little more than anticipated. It is now dropping 156 grain boolits at .358 with no grooves. That should still work for the Forehand Arms 38 S&W though I would think. Since the Brits took it to 200 gn.

[tucumcari_kid]

Old West Molds or NOE both make molds that will drop 360. I use the Old West 200 grain in my 38 S&Ws as well as my 38 Specials and 357s. I have at least 3 38 s&w from 1900s on up to 1970s. None of them are over .359 so I size them 359.
Here is a 146 grain .360 diameter from OWBM
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/products/38-sw-146-grain-bullet-360-dia-double-cavity-mould

And the 200 grain that drops closer to .363

https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/products/38-20038-super-police

Hope that helps.

[Traffer]

@tucumcari kid
Thanks for that info. Since mine slugs at .357 and my swaging die is now making .3585" boolits I think I will leave it at that. The mold is dropping them at 156 grains and I am swaging in a hollow base (albeit a bit shallow) This is what I am getting for boolits for the gun now. The only thing I may change is the depth of the hollow base. From what I have seen hollow bases are usually deeper. You will notice on the pictures that the inside of the swaging die still needs some polishing and I noticed a burr around the extraction pin hole that will have to be removed. Other than that the pictures show how simple the swaging die really is:
237146237147237148237149237145

[Traffer]

UGH! I just realized that my calipers were not zeroed and the boolits are actually .3595". Oh careless me. sigh