using sr primer to improve the burn of slower powders ?? 38 spcl

[mike in co]

i have seen sr primers used in 9x21 hot ammo for pressure protection,
but this is a different subject.
i am getting ready to do load development for 135's in a 3" 38.
several sets of data from guickload show poor powder burn/lots of unburnt powder/not efficient.
i was considering going to a sr primer, and working up from a lower starting point,
and see what happens, i have several flavors of sr primers to chose from.
anyone done this ??

[mike in co]

going a bit further,
i expect to be shooting at max..17000 psi plus or minus a little, but not plus p.
bullets are the newer speer 135 short bbl hp..really big hp. they are designed for low speed operation,
short bbl'd 38's have a hard time creating velocity. i am looking for 900+ fps.
really fast powder burns clean, gets the velocity, but the speed of the burn greats(imho) a "snap" and i would like to reduce
the gun movement for faster follow up shots.
computer data
accurate #2 gives 909 with 93% burn
accurate #5 gives 939 with 77% burn
so back off the starting load of #5 add a sr primer, and see how much powder to get to 939.
then subjective..look at the pistol...did it burn cleaner ?

[35remington]

I think you are expecting too much from a small rifle primer.

And I think you are obsessing over theoretical calculations over what the real science is, which is trying various load combinations to see which gives the highest velocity and ballistic consistency. A small rifle primer does not help to overcome low loading density and low pressures, which cause the problems you might find.

Experiment until you find a good combo, but ballistic miracles are not to be found. Just acceptable performance when you find it. I’ll save you time and suggest you avoid Hodgdon Universal powder like the plague in any attempt to find your Grail.

You also must accept that ballistic consistency will be lower than, say, a 9mm or 40 caliber pistol no matter what you try. Just the nature of the limitations you are up against.

[mike in co]

but it is not low pressure nor low load density.
unless you are saying 38s is a low pressure round to begin with.
all the data is at the top without going into plus p.
load density goes from 50-88%
considering some powders will do 30% i do not see these as low.
just looking to see if the primer will improve the burn, it is the effeciency that sucks.


A small rifle primer does not help to overcome low loading density and low pressures, which cause the problems you might find.

[35remington]

Compared to the two rounds I mentioned, the 38 Special is a low pressure low loading density round. Such things cause issues with poor powder and bullet selection. Using lighter bullets increases the tendency toward low loading density.

In any event you have to work within the limitations you have, but good results can be had. Just temper your expectations with reality. Ballistic uniformity is found by measuring it, not by looking to see how clean a case is.

I have never found primer type, including small magnum primers, to be a key component of 38 Special load uniformity. I had better luck with good selection of bullet type and avoiding the more undesirable powders.

It really is not complicated.

[Tom W.]

Somewhere on this forum ( I think) a fellow checked with the primer company and found that there is no difference between a SP and a SR primer. I know I had a few hundred left over from when I had a .454 and used them in my 9mm just recently. I didn't notice any difference, and I was using several different powders and loads.

[TNsailorman]

I have been under the impression for years now that the only difference between rifle primers and pistols primers were the hardness of the metal used to form the cups. I know there is a difference in the powder composition between regular and magnum primers in both. . Am I right or wrong? james

[FergusonTO35]

Use a magnum small pistol primer. Small rifle primers are harder and usually will not ignite consistently in .38 revolvers.

[Tom W.]

I have been under the impression for years now that the only difference between rifle primers and pistols primers were the hardness of the metal used to form the cups. I know there is a difference in the powder composition between regular and magnum primers in both. . Am I right or wrong? james

SP & SR are the same size
LP & LR are different sizes. Use your micrometer and you'll see this. I believe magnum primers may be a bit hotter. I know Match primers are those that passed Q.C. scrutiny with flying colors. I used the magnum match primers when I had my 7mm Rem Mag. After a LOT of tinkering and testing and different things I found that they DID help to shrink my groups considerably, all other things being equal....

[mike in co]

but i am only shooting a 39 spcl...not a 9mm not a 40 s&w , so bringing them up is just wasted bandwidth.
when you have some positive personal input to using different primers in 38 spcl , please feel free to comment .till then please go away.
look at my question, not what you want to talk about.


Compared to the two rounds I mentioned, the 38 Special is a low pressure low loading density round. Such things cause issues with poor powder and bullet selection. Using lighter bullets increases the tendency toward low loading density.

In any event you have to work within the limitations you have, but good results can be had. Just temper your expectations with reality. Ballistic uniformity is found by measuring it, not by looking to see how clean a case is.

I have never found primer type, including small magnum primers, to be a key component of 38 Special load uniformity. I had better luck with good selection of bullet type and avoiding the more undesirable powders.

It really is not complicated.

[crankycalico]

if your starting with quickload why not simply use a powder that the computer program says is a better choice then what you want to use?

example if you want to use powder x, and the program says its "a really crappy choice", why not simply use a powder the program says is a good choice?

[35remington]

I did say that primer type does not help. You may have been hoping to hear otherwise, but that does not change my findings.

[Forrest r]

It's really up to the company that's making the primers. Call the cci 800 # and ask if the sp & sr primers are the same & they'll tell you something stupid like "Heck, the anvil's ain't even the same." Then pick up a box of s&b primers and right on the box they say for rifle, pistol or revolver.
https://i.imgur.com/psC0I4B.jpg

As far as sr primers aiding in a better/more consistent burn? Absolutely!!! I use those s&b primers pictured above for the 223rem (h335/bl-c2/h380), all p+ 38spl loads, all 9mm loads & all 357 loads. You will not get huge jumps in velocity using the sr primers in the 38spl's. But you will get a lot lower sd & es's. All's you need is a firearm in good working order. There's a lot of talk about wrong components but yet I've seen the same people post they're getting huge +/- 80fps swings with the same powder I'm getting +/- 40fps. I guess that's called wrong components or they have firearms issues don't know it or how to recognize it. Or posters that say there's no way to get that kind of velocity other than using a lighter bullet with the same load. ???? Last I knew if you use the same load the heavier the bullet, the higher the velocity. But , heck, this is the internet after all.
Do yourself a huge favor, call a couple 800 #'s and get it strait from the horses mouth. Then do a little testing, it will not take long for you to answer your own questions.

[Mr_Sheesh]

My guess here is that the 3" barrel is THE limiting factor on how much of your powder is going to burn; If you had a longer barrel more would burn, low pressure is also contributing. Maybe try a bit faster powder? Should give you more efficient & cleaner loads.

If you want to stay with Accurate powders, of course, #2 and #5 are your only real choices in that speed range; Is Winchester 231 a possibility?

[reddog81]

The rifle primers aren’t going to change much of anything. If you only want people who will validate your question you might not have anyone answer the question.

If you think the rifle primers will work better, try it out. You aren’t going to hurt anything, and most likely you won’t even notice any difference. If you do notice any difference it’s only because you are hoping to see a difference.

[mike in co]

i have dome load development for a 6" 357 in both mag and 38 spcl.
i have done load development for a 3" 38 spcl with 125gr bullets.
i purchased speer 135 gr SHORT BBL BULLETS for load development in a 3" 38 spcl.
now( go read what i posted not what you want it to says) i am trying to find out if i can improve the BURN of some of the slower POWDERS by changing PRIMERS.
improve EFFICIENCY, NOTHING ELSE



My guess here is that the 3" barrel is THE limiting factor on how much of your powder is going to burn; If you had a longer barrel more would burn, low pressure is also contributing. Maybe try a bit faster powder? Should give you more efficient & cleaner loads.

If you want to stay with Accurate powders, of course, #2 and #5 are your only real choices in that speed range; Is Winchester 231 a possibility?

[Drm50]

The only thing I can add to the subject is non uniform ignition. I tried the same thing with 38sp in a K38 with
6" barrel. For same reason unburnt powder. I didn't get as far as checking that because groups opened up considerably. At first I thought sights had come loose. Quit the project and had used CCI & Rem SR with same
results.

[35remington]

Let m explain concisely what I did.

Variations in velocity, and therefore in pressure, and therefore in how the powder burns, occur most notably when the powder is allowed to wander from primer to bullet.

Therefore, I used several brands of primers, from mild Remington 1 1/2 to hotter, supposedly, magnum primers to CCI small rifle primers in one instance.

Improvements were desired in reducing extreme spreads from a powder forward to powder rearward position. This mimics the variation in position possible whe the pistol is drawn from a holster versus say, being tipped up before shooting the first shot when handled.

I modeled the worst case scenario to ensure it occurred consistently when shooting. In several instances the supposedly hotter primers did no better than, and in several cases a little worse than, the regular primers in reducing velocity variation from extremes in powder positioning. Depending upon powder type used, and there were a number from fast to slow, supposedly hotter primers did not give higher velocities with identical powder charges than slower primers.

My suppositions for those observed results are as follows.

Firstly, with powder near the front of the case, a limited area is presented for the primer to ignite. Therefore a hotter primer’s flash is not communicated to more powder because it is not thrown about.

To explain the lower velocity results or no improvement in velocity results or extreme spreads with powder near primer, I suppose the hotter primer may have moved the bullet slightly more before pressure built up, increasing case volume before pressures built to their maximum. This increase in case volume offset somehow the usage of supposedly hotter primers.

In smaller cartridges or those using heavier bullets I have seen hotter primers give slight velocity increases, such as 380 ACP, or when using small pistol versus large pistol primers with 230 grain bulletsin 45 ACP, but that was in average general shooting and not powder position testing. Kinda apples to oranges.

That is why I said what I said. The revolvers used had full power mainsprings installed to give all primers maximum whack.

My concern was addressing velocity variation from extremes in powder position. While I did not and do not care how cleanly the powder burns by comparison, it is logical to figure high velocity gives a cleaner burn than lower velocity with the same powder. So successfully addressing one will address the other.

In my testing I did not successfully address that by changing primers. I much more successfully addressed it by changing bullet weight, by increasing bullet seating depth within the limitations of bullet type (think wadcutter or more deeply seated heavier conventional bullet here) and avoiding powder which in testing gave higher velocity variation than other powders. These do exist.

Loading density helps greatly, more so than primer type in my testing, but there were exceptions to loading density being the overriding factor in all instances. Certain powders like Bullseye and Titegroup gave better uniformity than powders that have more bulk and fill the case more like Unique. Universal was horrible in that regard as it lacks bulk and is slower.

Even supposedly position insensitive Titegroup becomes inconsistent when bullet seating depth becomes quite shallow and bullet weight gets lighter. I think both the OP and myself were and are trying to address inconsistency. My way of directly measuring that was by measuring velocity variation, which is a certain way of quantifying it.

To reiterate, what I was testing for was to see if I could make the 38 produce more uniform velocities under extremes of powder position, which are quite likely to occur when the gun is employed and therefore increase its observed efficiency. Turns out I could do that, but not by changing primer type.

My results are what they were, and unless my testing methods are identical to someone else’s my results may be different. If the powder is not deliberately positioned in the case before shooting you may be testing for something other than what I was testing for. I went after a phenomenon known to occur in an attempt to minimize it.

Now you know why I said what I said, and why I make the 38 more “efficient” by changing things other than primer type.

But as was said before, do your own testing under your own conditions and see what is relevant for you.

[dkf]

A pressure of 17,000psi is really nothing. I use standard small pistol primers in cartridges with pressures over double that and similar case capacity to the .38special. If you get the itch with playing with hotter primers you could try a small pistol magnum, try different brands too. Though I don't think you need it. In .44mag I know you can often get better groups using a large pistol primer vs a large pistol magnum.

[35remington]

Reader’s Digest Version of the above:

An efficient 38 Special load is found, and most consistent powder burn obtained, when velocity variation is minimized when powder position shifts from extreme front to extreme back of the case is induced under testing. I can find ways to minimize it, but switching primers did not get it done.

Bullet seating depth, bullet weight and powder choice were how I increased efficiency.

[BigAlofPa.]

I solved my powder burn issues by using magnum primer across the board. My worst problem was 10mm in my carbine.

[35remington]

The Remington 1 1/2 will pierce at higher pressure levels beyond 38 Plus P. Other brands will not.

[jcren]

I have used some sr primers in 38 and 380 when they were hard to get, and didnt notice any difference. For your stated goals I believe a powder change will give better results. I have found excellent results with cfe pistol when trying to get higher velocity in all my pistol loads (380, 38 and 45) with a mellow recoil pulse and notably milder report. Haven't done much with the 38 lately, but i can get a 95 grain v-crown out of my taurus tcp at a chronographed 950 with much less felt recoil and easier follow ups than factory loaded Hornady critical or American gunner, which both chronograph only 820's in the same gun. Also has almost no muzzle flash (lemon sized orange-red shooting at night), fills the case more than bulleseye, tg, hs-6 etc, and very clean cases.

[mike in co]

i think some of you still are not reading what i said.
using a different primer to get a more efficient burn from a slower powder.
as an example can i get more than 67% burn out of accurate#9 by changing primers.
if 10.1 gives 943fps with a std primer but only 67% burn, can i get
940fps, with 8 gr and a hotter primer and 90% burn.

again it is about powder burn efficiency....quit throwing away 1/3 of your powder.
mild recoil, maintain velocity.

[35remington]

I used identical powder charges with different hotter primers, not lighter powder charges with hotter primers versus heavier powder charges with standard primers.

I didn’t get what you were looking for in terms of actual measured efficiency. Even under the testing conditions I employed, which are supposedly more favorable to efficiency.

If a hotter primer used with a lighter powder charge gives identical pressure and velocity to a heavier powder charge used with a milder primer, it is hard to see how efficiency and powder burn will improve. Load efficiency and powder burn improves with increases in pressure. If pressure remains the same efficiency and powder burn will not improve.

[RED BEAR]

How can you tell the burn efficiency. 67% vs 90%. Is this just a computer program or is there some other method. As far as efficient cci there is no difference between sp and sr if you call them get the tec. Specs for both they are the same( came from another member)

[BigAlofPa.]

Accu #9 was what i was having the most problems with not burning all the way. A chrono would be handy for comparing. Im thinking about getting one.

[35remington]

Some powders are just not going to work as well at lower pressures as others. Bullseye works at lot better in 38 Special standard pressure loads than 2400 does.

The problem is the powder used and the pressure it is used at when “efficient or not” is assessed. If running at standard 38 Special pressures it makes little sense to use significantly more slow powder and get poor ballistic consistency along with it. When powders get significantly slower than Unique or Herco they beccome less viable at 38 Special standard pressures.

[Mr_Sheesh]

mike in co - We are trying to help. You can test different primers to see if it helps, we just don't believe that it WILL help much.

I did think of one thing that you could try to get more powder burning; Heavier Crimps might help there. Unsure how much of a crimp you are using currently so this may not help you get more powder to burn.

[dkf]

I don't see the point unless #9 or other slow burner is the only powder you have. I'd run a spp and HS-6. Will have a smaller charge than #9, similar velocity, low muzzle flash and better burn. HS-6 is a low flash powder. Try different powders until you get the recoil impulse you prefer. For instance Power Pistol is quite a bit different than HS-6. PP is a snappy flashy powder despite having similar charge weights to HS-6.


How can you tell the burn efficiency. 67% vs 90%. Is this just a computer program or is there some other method. As far as efficient cci there is no difference between sp and sr if you call them get the tec. Specs for both they are the same( came from another member)

Quickload gives you an estimation of burn efficiency. (computer program)

[wonderwolf]

Slower powders are not ideal for shorter barrels. If you want the most out of a slower powder you need more barrel length. I've done a lot of testing with this in 38 and 357 between 5 different barrel lengths and many bullet weights and powders. I plan to redo my tests when I get a suppressor in hand to see just how those slower powders in longer barrels work with subsonic loads.

I'm not going to use 2400 in my 2" snub nose when I know bullseye is going to achieve my goal. Likewise I'm not going to use bullseye in my 357 rifle when I know 2400 will get me more velocity and do it safer.

[RED BEAR]

If you are using a computer program why not just use what it says is best? Forgive my ignorance i am not up to date on somethings never used a program for loading.

[mike in co]

go read what i posted
english is actually pretty simple.
it is written in black and white( well my screen is grey)


I don't see the point )

[mike in co]

or maybe i could try a DIFFERENT PRIMER.


AS A SIDE NOTE...WHY WOULD YOU PUT A SUPPRESSOR ON A REVOLVER ?

Slower powders are not ideal for shorter barrels. If you want the most out of a slower powder you need more barrel length. I've done a lot of testing with this in 38 and 357 between 5 different barrel lengths and many bullet weights and powders. I plan to redo my tests when I get a suppressor in hand to see just how those slower powders in longer barrels work with subsonic loads.

I'm not going to use 2400 in my 2" snub nose when I know bullseye is going to achieve my goal. Likewise I'm not going to use bullseye in my 357 rifle when I know 2400 will get me more velocity and do it safer.

[mike in co]

PROGRAMS are just tools..they are not BIBLES.
i have years of experience working with tools, enough to know that if i change a single
component( say a PRIMER) i can change the out come.

i was asking if anyone had done what i listed,
no one has, and almost everyone else has an issue reading.


If you are using a computer program why not just use what it says is best? Forgive my ignorance i am not up to date on somethings never used a program for loading.

[BigAlofPa.]

Mike give the magnum primers a try like i was talking about. Made a noticeable difference.

[wildcatter]

i think some of you still are not reading what i said.
using a different primer to get a more efficient burn from a slower powder.
as an example can i get more than 67% burn out of accurate#9 by changing primers.
if 10.1 gives 943fps with a std primer but only 67% burn, can i get
940fps, with 8 gr and a hotter primer and 90% burn.

again it is about powder burn efficiency....quit throwing away 1/3 of your powder. mild recoil, maintain velocity.

go read what i posted
english is actually pretty simple.
it is written in black and white( well my screen is grey)


Looks like like you want really bad to be right. Sorry it's pretty simple english in black and white as you put it.

NO there is no way anyone can tell you a rifle primer will do what you want!

In the first place it is a known fact various rifle primers have different flash burns, some shorter hotter, some longer and cooler and some just the opposite!

Then there is a fact that they do have harder cups, this could and has caused unreliable ignition in some handguns resulting in wider velocity spreads and poor accuracy!

If you want more heat and flash for ignition the smart thing to do is use the magnum version of the primer make you are currently using!

It is a fact that some magnum primers with some powders not considered magnum powders suffer drastically from the use of the hotter primer.

My thought is if you don't like facts don't ask questions that call for pure speculation! Try it in the particular weapon after understanding all these variables that apply to their use and see which one applies in your situation. But since your asking questions and not willing to understand the possible outcomes being given to you, maybe you should consider who is having the issues understanding simple English????????

[RED BEAR]

Well excuse me for intruding into your little world. May not be the best reader only been doing it for 60 years or so but my mama taught me manners.

[mike in co]

if you read the question and you have done it YES YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
it is pretty simple.
ANSWER the question I ASKED,
NOT THE QUESTION YOU WOULD LIKE TO ANSWER
i asked if anyone had done this with a short bbl'd 38 spcl
seems the question is simple
either you did or you did not.
if you did not, please go away.
if you did, tell me your results, do not tell me a story.
i DID NOT ASK FOR SPECULATION...i asked for DATA.
you have no data, do not reply.
life is simple
read the question, do you have specific data related to the question?
yes,, reply
no, DO NOT REPLY.

YOU DID NOT DO IT...SO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE REPLIED..unless you like seeing your name in print.
you added nothing to the question.



Looks like like you want really bad to be right. Sorry it's pretty simple english in black and white as you put it.

NO there is no way anyone can tell you a rifle primer will do what you want!

In the first place it is a known fact various rifle primers have different flash burns, some shorter hotter, some longer and cooler and some just the opposite!

Then there is a fact that they do have harder cups, this could and has caused unreliable ignition in some handguns resulting in wider velocity spreads and poor accuracy!

If you want more heat and flash for ignition the smart thing to do is use the magnum version of the primer make you are currently using!

It is a fact that some magnum primers with some powders not considered magnum powders suffer drastically from the use of the hotter primer.

My thought is if you don't like facts don't ask questions that call for pure speculation! Try it in the particular weapon after understanding all these variables that apply to their use and see which one applies in your situation. But since your asking questions and not willing to understand the possible outcomes being given to you, maybe you should consider who is having the issues understanding simple English????????

[dkf]

Another case of someone with nothing better to do than to create an argument.

[crankycalico]

its also a refusal to accept things shooters and loaders have accepted since well, smokeless powder came about.

A shorter barrel yields less time to get the powder charge burned, thus you need to use powders, yes powders, that are actually able to be effiecient with them.

or as Charter Arms says,
We rate our handguns for +p 38 special, but do not recommend the use of +p in barrels shorter then 4" due to the large fire ball of powder igniting outside the muzzle.

Oh yeah, the muzzle blast is wasted powder, if its considered to be EXPECTED in 90% of all factory +P loads when used in a snubnose, I would only assume that most load data will create that issue of WASTED POWDER when fired in a short barrel.

or perhaps the issue is that somebody has gone into a hardware store asking for a "glognut" but holding a broken hammer in his hand, and refusing to accept anything labeled HAMMER on the price tag.

[xrayfk05]

Then pick up a box of s&b primers and right on the box they say for rifle, pistol or revolver.



Not sure what you mean but if you mean you can use those primers for rifle and pistol, it also says those are SP boxer ie. pistol primers.
They are fine for a low-end .223 load but will start to show overpressure sign pretty quickly. (Don't ask me how I know :P )

A rifle primer may or may not be "hotter" than a pistol primer, same goes for a magnum primer. Some only have a thicker cup.
Only way to find out is to try it.