Remington 8mm Lebel

[Battis]

I was looking at a Remington 1907-1915 8mm Lebel rifle today. No serial number. The wood and metal are in great shape but they say the stock has been cut (fore end). I saw pics of similar rifles online and some have full stocks, others have the same cut stock. Any thoughts on this rifle with the shortened fore end? It looks like a great shooter. As far as the clips - would they be the same as the 8x56R Steyr?

[KenT7021]

The clips are not the same as the 8x56.The original rifles used a three shot clip.Some rifles may have a different magazine assembly installed that uses a five shot clip.

[john.k]

The Remington rifles were never issued.............every one was rejected by the French for various reasons,but they ended up taking a few thousand they had paid in advance for,but never used them......The clips are being made by AV in Oz ,I believe.....originals are hard to find.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

233827
Here's what the 5 round version of the clip looks like. If the rifle is a 07/15 it is a Berthier, using the 8mm Lebel cartridge. As previously stated, there were 3 and 5 round versions. If the stock's wood extends to the bottom of the magazine it is a 3 shot, if a metal magazine housing extends below the wood line it is a 5 shot.There were carbines made for mounted and artillery troops, etc., in both 3 and 5 shot versions (early and late). The carbine stocks had metal caps on the ends of the stocks and stacking rods, they weren't just cut off like a basement sporter. You can see several versions in "Small Arms of the World" and other similar books for more positive identification. As also stated, the Remingtons didn't see much action, although they were used stateside as a training rifle, and it's not unusual to find one in good condition. If the price is right, and it seems authentic, snap it up!
My only specimen is a Delaunay Bellerville mfg, full length, that looks like it went through the entire battle of Verdun. I once detail stripped and cleaned it, and the design is much better than one would think just looking at the rifle.

[salpal48]

I have seen several Remington lebel's with shortened stocks. I think they were done @ remington. early On to sell Them. Remington also mage factory ammo In both to Old 2 piece Box dating 1930's and as Late as the 50's in the one piece Green box. My feeling They made the ammo in order to sell the rifles

[Battis]

I was impressed by its condition but the fact that it looked sporterized made me think twice. But, if it was a factory job, then it has its own unique history. They're asking $375 - I might go back for another look.

[Texas by God]

Springfield Sporters sold the neat looking Turkish Forestry Service Berthier back in the 80's. 8mm Lebel ammo wasn't around so I passed on them. Shoulda coulda woulda.

[john.k]

The story of the Remington 07/15 and 07/16.....is somewhat complicated........but partway through the "fiasco",Remington tried to pull their nuts out of the fire by offering to make the 07/16 for the same price contracted for the 07/15......the French agreed and set another default date ,and Remington missed that too.........even the rifles the French took,having paid an advance,and being unable to get it returned ,cos Remington was bankrupt by that stage.,were not accepted for service,and never saw use in WW1,apparently being cut down to carbines for native use post war......IMHO,all the French guns are klunkers ,having poor accuracy due to only one action screw,and relying on the barrel band for securing the stock......EDIT....except the Lebel 2 piece stock...still a klunker ,tho.

[john.k]

The Turk carbines were $30,and came with ammo that wouldnt go off...............the reason being it was Hotchkiss ammo,double thick primers........And the stuff was special long range with 240gn bullets and +++ powder charge....did it pack a kick in the carbines?......actually claimed by certain experts to be dangerous in the rifles,due to lug shearing.....Anyhoo,the ammo was dumped at less than scrap prices ,to the joy of them who knew it was actually OK.......Which is why there wasnt any surplus ammo for the Frenchies.

[ukrifleman]

233860233861233862233863233864I know that the Remington built Berthiers were initially a problem, mainly due to the conversion of the metric drawings supplied by the French being incorrectly converted into imperial by Remington.

This was mainly corrected and many rifles were reworked to bring them up to spec.

Remington were never able to supply the required number of rifles per month as per the terms of the contract and the French cancelled the contract.

By this time, the French arsenals had ramped up production and were able to supply all the rifles needed, coincidence?

I think the cancellation of the contract was as much a political move as one of failure to supply the contracted number of rifles.

Bear in mind the French brought a 5 shot version in 1916.

I have an unissued Remington 1907-15 that was proof fired only when I picked it up in 2015.

The build quality is excellent and the rifle is now an accurate shooter both with cast and j word bullets.

The rifles originally had an offset fore sight blade, supposedly to correct bullet drift and mine shot high and left.

I corrected this by having a higher and centered fore sight blade manufactured by a machinist buddy and it now shoots POA/POI at 100m with the sights set at minimum.

Some photos of my 1907-15.

ukrifleman

[john.k]

From what I have read,the French hoped to get rapid delivery to cover their huge losses,I think the first delivery was to be within 40 days ,or something like that...and the contract specified numbers and deadlines that Remington had no hope of meeting,but the details were constantly renegotiated until the rifle shortage had passed,and the contracts were cancelled for non delivery.......recently I read that Winchester took a huge loss on the P14s too,due to rapid inflation in material and labor prices.....I suspect Remington also would have been in the same position on the P14s.

[Battis]

The one that I looked at did not have the stacking rod and, if I remember correctly, more barrel was showing than the one in ukrifleman's photo (shorter stock, but the barrel was long). I'm going back for another look. That's a nice looking rifle in the photos.

[Battis]

The one I'm looking at looks like this one for sale on GB.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

ukrifleman: Very nice specimen. Thanks for the photos.

Battis: That definitely looks like a cutdown to me. But, whether to buy or not depends on your personal goals. If they are to familiarize yourself with the rifle and cartridge, then something similar to what's in the photo is fine. If it's to build a collection of military rifles, then you'll need something like uk's rifle.

[Battis]

I've seen several other photos of similar cutdowns - could Remington have done the cutdowns to sell the rifles?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Frankly, I don't know. It's a possibility that I wouldn't discount out of hand without doing a little research. The US Govt. actually cut down some Krags for the civilian market.

There are a lot of interesting stories/history that go with military arms. Same time period as the Remington Berthier rifles, Westinghouse made M-91 Mosin Nagants for the Czarist army. Very few were delivered due to the Bolshevik Revolution and Westinghouse was left with a whole pile of them.

A fellow I met who bought a Westinghouse refrigerator in the 1930s, had a M-91 of the same manufacture that came with the refrigerator as an incentive to purchase it. He hunted with it in "as-issued" condition, and bagged a deer with it for many years.

[Major 2]

I have an Châtellerault Armory M 1892 Artillery carbine. Slugged @ .328 and I use a .330 sized GC lead
a friend casts for me. New Lebel Brass from234050 Graf's & 12.5 Grains of TrailBoss.
I get lots of interest at the range.234048 234049

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Not much to add except these rifles are awesome, and I found three round clips:

https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/FRENCH-BERTHIER-3RD-CLIP-8MM-LEBEL-p3869.htm

I hope to own a Berthier or Lebel one day.

Regards,
Josh

[Battis]

I went back to the store yesterday to take a Spanish Destroyer off hold (decided against it) and the Remington 8mm Lebel is still there. It's in really good shape. Very tempting.
Here's the store's online listing:

REMINGTON M1907-15 PRE OWNED
SKU: 1062999
Features: ORIG LENGTH BBL, GOOD BORE; 26"; CUT STOCK
Caliber: 8MM LEBEL
Action design: rifle: bolt
Condition Rating: VERY GOOD
$375.00

[Battis]

I found this on another site:
"Only a few thousand Remington made rifles were ever delivered to France where they promptly failed inspection. Popular belief is that it was due to improper heat treating. Chatellerault rebuilt a few thousand of them before abandoning this practice as not cost effective. Those that were rebuilt were sent to war reserve to be used only in the most dire of emergencies – the rifles were considered that unsafe. The remainder of the contract was never delivered and most Remingtons never left the USA. These rifles should probably not be fired if encountered. Most are like new and bear no serial number, as serial numbers were only applied to rifles accepted for service.

[john.k]

That s true...the French only took enough to cover the advance they had made,as Remington wernt in a position to return the money......the delaware factory was new,and it seems most of the workers there had issues,and had been fired from other plants.Anyhoo,there was continued industrial trouble there,hardly surprising when the European war pushed up food prices massively...............However ,as to the heat treating...Ive seen no evidence of this in the few Ive examined,that have been fired with the MG ammo.......It may have been an excuse.from what Ive heard ,the guns were out of spec................now when Remington signed up for M17 production,the first thing they did was ask for a relaxation in tolerances by .002"...(004 total)....In WW2 ,Remington also asked for a relaxation in tolerances on the Springfield contract by the same........This is the reason Springfield Arsenal were opposed to Rem and Win making Springfields in WW1

[ukrifleman]

These rifles should probably not be fired if encountered

One of the few advantages of owning firearms in the UK, is that they all have to be proofed before they can be sold and that includes imports from non CIP affiliated countries.

My unissued/unfired Mod1907-15 Remington was imported and proofed at the Birmingham proof house in 2008.

The proof includes amongst other things an initial headspace check, 2 proof rounds of at least 125% of service load and then a second headspace check.

I don't think that the build quality Remington Berthiers was poor, but rather they were `out of spec` due to faulty interpretation of the French metric drawings being converted to imperial measurement by Remington.

Resulting in incorrect chamber and bore dimensions, which could have led to all sorts of issues.

I believe like mine they were reworked then many of these rifles were sold off and sporterised after the war and did sterling service as hunting rifles.

I certainly have no qualms about shooting mine, it having passed UK proof.

ukrifleman