22lr. To 22 wrm

[Trophy Tom]

On a winchester 1885. Can a 22LR be reamed to 22 WRM.
22LR Barrel .223
22WRM. .224

Would the barrel diameter cause any pressure
Problems.


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[AZ Pete]

lurking


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[labradigger1]

Guns that shoot both calibers such as Ruger single six use .224 bores.
22lr and 22wmr have the same pressure interestingly enough.
It was common to do this conversion years ago.
1885’s are darn nice guns. If it is original I would leave it alone.

[Chill Wills]

I don't have any real answers to your question so here is what I know. Ruger and Colt made revolver convertibles that with different cylinders, could shoot either. So I think the question of pressure is not a problem. Whether they used a 0.224" barrel to make sure it was in all cases safe I do not know. I bet Mr Harris can tell you.

The level of accuracy might not be as good as the correct size barrel, who knows? Also, a reamer with a changeable pilot would be my choice. A fixed pilot may or may not fit the 0.223" barrel.

[Chill Wills]

Ha! Clearly - labradigger1 and I were typing and posting at the same time. :p Great minds think alike.

[Traffer]

Congratulations on owning an 1885 Winchester. I would suggest that modifying your existing rifle would cause it to lose more value than a new modest single shot rifle in one of those calibers would cost. If it is an original 1885...manufactured a hundred or more years ago, it would be a great shame to modify it... In my opinion.

[Trophy Tom]

I don’t own it. I was trying to haggle on it at a sporting goods shop and the owner is probably going to keep it and ream to Mag.
It’s a later model made I think 2005. They only made 2500. Half octagon half round barrel.
I was thinking if I convinced him the barrel dia would not work he might go ahead and sell it to me. Fingers crossed.


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[marlinman93]

The Colt Scouts with dual cylinders had issues with their .22LR barrels. They did indeed have pressure issues and Colt changed in 1966 to use the larger .22 Magnum bore. I just sold a 1966 Colt Frontier Scout with both cylinders, and like new condition. Inside the box was a note from Colt saying "this gun is equipped with the larger bore to shoot both .22LR and .22 Magnum safely. Do not shoot earlier guns with the smaller bores. Send them back to Colt to be refitted to the correct bore size."
So Colt must have had a recall on these guns from what the note said in the one I had.

And the twist rate is always an issue with guns shooting both bullets. They rarely shoot both accurately, and usually have the correct twist for the .22LR, which gave the .22 Magnum a reputation for poor accuracy.

https://i.imgur.com/mPOmvUcl.jpg

[jes]

I currently own an 1885 that had an eroded barrel, was sleeved to 22lr (223?), then reamed to 22 magnum. It shoots quite well and has had thousands of 22 mag rounds through it, no problem. I also have a friend who had a Martini 12/15 reamed to 22 magnum (tried to talk him out of it, nice original rifle), it shoots very well and really makes a nice 22 mag. I've probably seen/shot a dozen 22lr rifles reamed to 22 magnum, I've never seen a problem.

[Bulldogger]

Results vary, I'm sure, but I recall a thread here where a member pulled .22LR and reassembled them with .22WRM projectiles he pulled, and it seemed fine until he realized he'd shot the rifling out of it.
Show the guy that thread and the price of a new barrel, he might change his mind.
Bulldogger

[Traffer]

Results vary, I'm sure, but I recall a thread here where a member pulled .22LR and reassembled them with .22WRM projectiles he pulled, and it seemed fine until he realized he'd shot the rifling out of it.
Show the guy that thread and the price of a new barrel, he might change his mind.
Bulldogger
Also 22WMR are jacketed bullets...that will cause more wear also. Speaking of which. Many of those old 22 rim fires were permanently leaded up and that helped keep them from wearing out.

[EDG]

Just because there is a specification does not mean the barrel will be exactly .223. I would bet it will be a little ovesize like most other factory barrels. For example every one knows a .375 Win is designed for .375 bullets. My .375 Marlin checks at .3778....

[oldred]

I have a Colt New Frontier 22 lr/22 WMR that I bought new in 1975 and have shot regularly ever since, it is my favorite revolver by a wide margin. This gun has the .224 bore and shoots both 22 lr and 22 mag quite well but is noticeably more accurate with 22 lr which is kind of curious given the over-size bore for that round.

Now about the OP's question, the one (only) 22 lr to 22 mag conversion I am personally familiar with is/was an older Remington 22 bolt action single shot that a co-worker re-chambered some years back, accuracy was poor and it did indeed show signs of excessive pressure. So much so that the rifle was retired and now considered unsafe to shoot, he probably still has this rifle since it belonged to his grandfather but the last I talked with him about it a few years back he very much regretted the conversion.

[cwlongshot]

Tom,

I did. H&R some years abck. It shot very well!

As mentioned its gonna depend on the barrel Dia Miroku used.

CW

[boommer]

there is a thousands diff in the bore and when was last time you slug a bore it came out perfect ? thou isn't %$&#, in 22 rimfire for pressure if your firearm shows problems your gun has issues ! Ammo diff's will give you more issues in accuracy and pressures than if your bore is .223 or .224 . HECK THAT NEW 10-22 mite have a .222 or .225 bore. you assume that bore is perfect. Bullet jump to rifling is going to effect things more.

[John Taylor]

Most of the early 22 Hornets that Winchester made used a .223 groove diameter. The only problem would be that the higher pressure could rupture the brass of a rim fire if it is not properly supported. Most rimfire high velocity ammo is loaded to 24,000 psi. This includes the two 17s, 22LR and 22 Mag. I have seen some old gun designed for black powder cartridges that would rupture the brass with modern ammo. On a High Wall the extractor needs to have a close fit or it can cause a rupture at the rim.

[square butte]

Well, Don't forget the Winchester model 43's . . .

[EDG]

I think you guys might consider some of my experimenting.
I have a Mossberg 640K in .22WMR that is in excellent condition but factory ammo of 4 or 5 types has never impressed me. My best 5 shot groups run about 2" at 100 meters. The lousy 50 grain lead bullet in the Federal heavy bullet load do well to shoot 3.5" groups.
The SAAMI drawing allows the chamber diameter to be a good bit larger in diameter than a loaded round and the lead on my rifle results in about a .150 jump.
I pulled the bullets of factory WW FMJ ammo and replaced those bullets with both 40 grain and 45 grain Sierra .224 Hornet bullets using the same factory powder charges. I seated the new bullets long so they had about .020 or so jump. The 40 grain bullets expanded the cases exactly like the factory bullets. The 45 grain bullet expanded the case a few thousandths more but it never caused a problem and accuracy was better with both Sierra bullets. Visual examination of cases fired with either bullet looked the same. Only my micrometer could tell the difference in the expansion. Extraction was normal and fired cases would go back into the chamber in any orientation.

[John Taylor]

The only 22 Hornets Winchester ever made "back in the day" were M54s and M70s. The Low Wall in 22 WCF ( a black powder cartridge) with the same dimensions as a Hornet was long gone. Althogh the "4 Ws" at SA used the 22WCF in their SA1922 conversions (w/.223 bbls)

The only Hornets that are for sure .223 are converted rimfires.

I cannot find any documentation on factory made USA rifles having .223 bore. My 1935 RF Sedgley (he used WRA bbls) 22 Hornet is .224 as does my M19 Savage bolt action.

My Winchester chart shows the 22 Hornet with a .217 bore and .222 groove, 6 lands at .0681 width with 1 in 16 twist. I always assumed that they were using 22 LR barrels but the same list shows the 22L and LR with a bore of .219 and groove at .223, 6 lands at .080" wide, 16 twist RH. The 22 short with .217 bore and .223 groove, 6 lands at .080 wide 20" twist RH.
All the model 54 and model 70 barrels I have made I for the 22 Hornet I have use the 223 groove 16 twist.

[John Taylor]

"Winchester chart" ? Could you share it with us ? Thanks.

234451

[John Taylor]

Appears to be a computer spread sheet, too small to read. Is it a Winchester factory document ? Of not, what were the data sources.
Thanks.

Click on it and it gets bigger. From the company that I made barrels for, probably from a Winchester collectors book.

[slumlord44]

It is my understanding that the Stevens Walnutl Hill's that were made in .22 Hornet for a short period of time back in the 1930's were .223 bore. Thats all i shoot in mine.

[Texas by God]

Early .22 Hornets had .223" barrels. The "first one" was a converted m22 Springfield .
Golly gosh, that's why every bullet maker offered .223" HORNET bullets.

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[EDG]

Sure will be jump if you use a SAAMI reamer. Check the drawings for the SAAMI chamber vs the SAAMI loaded ammo dimensions.


As the WMR is longer than a 22 LR, there will be no bullet jump issue.

[John Taylor]

After talking to other "smiths" in the know, it appears that Winchester did use the .222 pre war and changed post war. The Model 70 had a few changes at the same time. The frame rear bridge did away with the rolled finish and went to a smooth top with two holes for scope base. Also the bolt handle was changed.

[EDG]

I have a M70 Hornet barrel dated 1935 that I could slug. That might be an eye opener.

[Texas by God]

Toward the OP, my friend had a Remington 510 rechambered to .22 magnum in 1975. He has never had a problem with it. Drilled and tapped for a scope; it's one of the most accurate. 22 WRF I've fired.

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[BigEyeBob]

On a winchester 1885. Can a 22LR be reamed to 22 WRM.
22LR Barrel .223
22WRM. .224

Would the barrel diameter cause any pressure
Problems.


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I was led to belive 22lr had a groove diameter of .221"A gunsmith I have known for many years has done a large number of 22lr to 22wmr and has never had any problems or complaints .

[Chev. William]

I have a Pair of Winchester original 1890's that have a 'toggle' in them and are marked .22WRF but shoot both .22WRF and .22WMR interchangeably; one has a 5 digit serial the other has a 6 digit serial.

Chev. william

[Walks]

Back in the mid 1970's,
I asked Smith & Wesson if they would fit an extra .22WMR Cylinder to my Model 17 .22LR.
They would not. But they would fit an extra .22LR Cylinder to a model 48 .22WMR.
Said the bbl on the model 17 was too small for .22WMR.

[John Taylor]

I have a Pair of Winchester original 1890's that have a 'toggle' in them and are marked .22WRF but shoot both .22WRF and .22WMR interchangeably; one has a 5 digit serial the other has a 6 digit serial.

Chev. william

The original 22 WRF has a groove diameter of .226" and the 22 mag is .224". The toggle on the carrier came with the 06 ( round barreled 1890) for short, long and long rifle. I have seen a few 1890s converted to 22 mag but this make a very weak carrier after machining it for the longer cartridge.

[Chev. William]

Dangerous and criminal as jkted bullets will wreck the soft steel bore. Correct WRF is available.

https://www.shop.ammo-one1.com/product.sc?productId=228&categoryId=86

How So "Criminal"???

Both 1890 were Bought 'well used' for about $25.00 each.
The six digit one was 'refinished' long ago and the stamping's are 'smeared' from the Polishing before re-blueing.
The five digit one is still in its deteriorated original finish, 'plum' turning grey.
Both had pitted Bores but still had rifling in them, and still do.
Yes, the .22WMR are 'sticky' n extraction due to erosion of the Chambers from firing .22WRF.
But Both Still shoot both cartridges and still hit what i aim at well.

Now A Pair of 1873 Winchesters have more Problems with current Factory Loaded 44-40 Cartridges, far more frustrating to shoot than my 1890's.

Chev. William

[marlinman93]

Never seen any "jacketed" .22 magnums? I've seen plated bullets in .22 Magnum, but no jacketed.

[John Taylor]

How So "Criminal"???

Now A Pair of 1873 Winchesters have more Problems with current Factory Loaded 44-40 Cartridges, far more frustrating to shoot than my 1890's.

Chev. William
I have lined more than a few 73s to get them to shoot again. Have one of my own that was found under a house that was tore down in town. Good coat of rust but the action still works.

[oldred]

Never seen any "jacketed" .22 magnums? I've seen plated bullets in .22 Magnum, but no jacketed.

???????:confused: Am I missing something here, you're just kidding right?



https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900196104/winchester-super-x-ammunition-22-winchester-magnum-rimfire-wmr-40-grain-full-metal-jacket

[uscra112]

Sometime after WW1 the Government made a bunch of barrels to convert Springfields to .22 RF, allegedly for gallery practice. Groove diameter .223. It appears that these went on the market, and were bought by various gunsmiths for building Hornet and later on Lovell 22-3000 rifles. These also fitted Krags easily enough that most of the Krag-based .22 wildcats I have or have seen used them. I've always believed that this was the genesis of the .223 bullet diameter of the early Hornets.

Curiously, I have a Lovell 2R built by Sedgley, and it has a .223 barrel also, but it's not one of the Armory barrels. The action is .........(wait for it).........a cast frame Ballard.

[Traffer]

I have never slugged a 22lr barrel but I measure the ammo quite often. Since I make it. Commercially available 22lr ammo is mostly at least .224" Much of it is .2245" and some folks prefer to bump it up with a little accusizer to .225"
My two cents is that PERHAPS 22WMR barrels are a bit larger in bore. Maybe .001" or less. But the reason would be the COPPER JACKETED AMMUNITION. 22lr ammo is almost dead soft lead. Some is about 9 bhn. Easy to squeeze that into a smaller bore. In my opinion Copper jackets would likely wear the barrel faster and perhaps raise the pressure.
Now you guys are gonna make me go and slug my 22 barrels...See what you did!

[EDG]

You need to look again and maybe pull some of the bullets you think are only plated.
The Winchester silver box FMJ and HP bullets are both jacketed. I have 6 or 7 different boxes of .22 WMR ammo and only one has plated bullets.


Never seen any "jacketed" .22 magnums? I've seen plated bullets in .22 Magnum, but no jacketed.

[oldred]

I have 6 or 7 different boxes of .22 WMR ammo and only one has plated bullets.


Yes plated 22 WMR are available but jacketed are by FAR the most common, as long as I have been shooting the mags (since the middle 60's) I have never shot anything but jacketed. I have stashed away many boxes of both CCI and Winchester plus a few Federals in hollow point, flat nose soft point and full jacket, all of them are jacketed in one style or other.

[Chev. William]

.22WRF used to be Lead, then Plated Lead, but the Last batcjh of it I bought had Jacketed Bullets; sort of ruins the round for Pot Meat Hunting in my opinion.
Chev. William

[EDG]

My plated .22 WRM ammo is WW Dynapoint and is some of the worst ammo for accuracy that I have tried.


Yes plated 22 WMR are available but jacketed are by FAR the most common, as long as I have been shooting the mags (since the middle 60's) I have never shot anything but jacketed. I have stashed away many boxes of both CCI and Winchester plus a few Federals in hollow point, flat nose soft point and full jacket, all of them are jacketed in one style or other.

[oldred]

My plated .22 WRM ammo is WW Dynapoint and is some of the worst ammo for accuracy that I have tried.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind as I am always on the lookout for deals on 22 mag, I have a good stock of 22 lr and short (the shorts for my beloved Beretta auto pistol in short only) but I could still use some more 22 mag for what is likely coming in the future. I hope I am wrong about that but then that`s a topic for a different discussion.

[AA Ron]

I don't know about a Winchester but I had a 12/15 Martini cadet reamed to .22 magnum
as a Hare/Rabbit rifle.
Fitted with a 3-9 VX1 and running CCI ammo that thing was very accurate.
Under an inch at 100mtrs every time.
Never had any concern with pressure or rifling wearing out and I put a lot of rounds
through it.
I stupidly sold it when it spent way too much time in the safe. Silly.
Although the replacement for it was a CZ455 .17HMR, great on Hares!