Supporting our round balls

[littlejack]

Hey fellas:
I haven't posted for quite a while regarding round balls in shotguns, so here it comes.
I know that there has been a problem in the past with supporting the ball in the wad so the wad does not have a tendency to wrap around the ball. A couple days ago, I had what I thought was a brainstorm. This may gave been tried in the past, but like I said, I haven't been here for a while.
I am in the process of making some loads, by supporting the ball in the pocket of hot glue in the wad. This makes the perfect support for the ball and allows the wad to push flat rather than wrap around the ball. It also keeps the ball centered in the wad, thusly in the barrell.
Hopefully I can get to the range tomorrow to give them a try.
Any thoughts, comments, or has this been tried and dismissed?
Regards

[megasupermagnum]

Sounds like a good idea, but time consuming. I had very good luck with a scoop of PSB buffer. It fully supported the ball during firing, as shown from recovered slugs. I forget who came up with the idea, I read it on this forum.

[littlejack]

Yea, I knew there was different mediums being used under the ball, i.e. cream of wheat
buffer, as you have etc. I'm not to concerned about the time, just want good accurate loads.
This may be a futile attempt. Might not even work.

[longbow]

Yes, good idea. How are you doing this? Are you squirting hot melt glue in the shotcup then pushing a ball in to form the "seat"?

My usual approach is to put a 16 ga. nitro card wad or two in the bottom of the shotcup the a scoop of Cream 'O Wheat then the ball. Cream 'O Wheat being the hillbilly version of PSB buffer. This works well with wad size balls but not if they are undersize.

I have been thinking of making a form for moulding something like paper mache by using ABS pipe machined to suit wad inside diameter then a dowel of inside wad diameter with centered round ball in it to make the ball impression, let dry then load into a wad. So far that part is just thoughts. I'm still playing with Brennek'izing slugs.

I had another idea for round balls too on the Brenneke'izing trend... using 3D printing like BigMrTong to produce a tail wad with "socket" just a hair over 1/2 ball diameter so a round ball will snap in. This may not be an original thought as I seem to recall Cap'n Morgan suggesting something similar if not the same. With 3D printing some of these ideas are much easier to try... if a guy has access to a 3D printer that is. I'm thinking a 0.662" or 0.678" RB in a full bore "carrier". RB's are easy to cast and the carrier would allow any alloy to be used and would be choke friendly with the undersize ball and plastic carrier/tail wad.

With the correct plastic tail wad of bore (or groove diameter for rifled gun) this should work for either smoothbore or rifled gun.

All in all I still like round balls!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Yes longbow, I am squirting the hot glue directly into the wad cup.
Here's a little detail about what I am using.
A few years ago, I made a punch die for filler card wads to go under the ball.
The male punch goes into my RockChucker press, like a shell holder would.
The female piece screws into the top of the press like a reloading die. I have only punched .045 material, but it works fine and is easy to punch. In these particular loads, I use four of them in the bottom of the cup, which adds up to .180.
The wad itself is a BPI Helix Cushion Driver #18. These wads are for straight wall cases.
The petals (4) are, on average, .030 thick. The petals are the same thickness, from top to bottom. The petals have been connected in three places between each petal during the molding process. One connector .090 from the cup base. The next one .375 above first, and then one at the very top. I discribe this to show that when I squirt in the hot glue, and set the ball down onto the cards and into the glue, the petals do not spread out and make the whole projectile to big for the bore.
I lube the bottom half of the ball with RCBS sizing lube so it does not adhere (stick) to the glue.
My .678 ball runs small. Average about .675 +/-. They fit inside this particular wad perfectly.
All of this is set down on a good dose of Bluedot, in a Win. Super X hull.
I will post my range results, if i can get there tomorrow.

[littlejack]

Longbow:
I remember a few years back, you mentioning your intentions of attempting to make the "paper mache' cups that you mentioned. I'm surprised you haven't completed that R&D.
Regards

[littlejack]

Good morning.
Just back from the range. It was a toasty 32°
I fired 26 rounds, 13 at 23 yards, and 13 at 50 yards shooting at two targets.
I was shooting a Remington 870 pump, with a Remington rifled barrell with open sights.
The 13 rounds at 25 yards went into a 2"group. Not bad but not great.
The first group at 50 yards was 4". The second group was 4" then two balls opening up the group to 6.5".
MY 69 year old eyes are shot. "Punn intended" The sights as well as the targets are blurry. I'm going to scope the 870, as all of my rifles and two revolvers are.
The wads were strung out from 12 yards down range, to as much as 37 yards. The ones that opened up the most dropped closer. I retrieved 23 of 26 wads, and none had lost a single petal.
The hot glue supporting the ball performed as expected. None of the wads appeared to have wrapped around the ball.
One thing that was Interesting. There was no (none) wad fouling in the bore. What ever BPI uses for their wad material, works very well.
When I shoot my Lyman 525 sabot slug loads in the ww12 wad, they start fouling from the first shot. I have to soak and scrub the bore to get it out.
Regards

[Conditor22]

Do you lube the round ball before you stick it into the glue?

Just a thought, if you cut the wad to the depth you want the hot glue cup, lube the wad and a ball, fill the wad with hot glue and shove the ball in until it touches the wad, carve off the excess and pop out the glue cup. they should all be close to the same.

[littlejack]

Yes, I did lube the ball prior to setting it in the hot glue. When the glue hardened, I pinched the sides, and loosened the ball to come out.
I dropped every ball out to make sure the wad was not going to tag along hooked to the ball.
I had thought about using a piece of whatever I could find or make, and make glue wads as n you mentioned. I don't have my lathe anymore, so it's gonna be harder to come up with something the right I.D.

[longbow]

What size RB's are you using and how deep are you pushing them into the glue? Is the wad in something to keep it from splaying open when you put glue in?

As for my paper mache R&D... like many of my projects it got sidelined while I did other stuff. I went to hot melt glue attached wads with some success but keeping bubbles out of hot melt glue is the issue... and getting nice sharp edges on the tail wads. My technique there is to put the slug in a form machined from CPVC pipe coupling (mould release is grease), invert the coupling and squirt hot melt glue in to over fill a bit, invert again and press the glue face down on a greased piece of steel. The excess glue squeezes out around the base quite easily and leaves a flat base but the edges often have small fringes of thin glue. Not sure if they affect things much or not. Injection moulding it ain't but it works for poor guys who want to play. If I get good tail wads the slugs fly quite well.

The problem with paper mache too is that you have to shred the paper and add a binder. I'm thinking that cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat cooked then put in forms, moulded and left to cool then dry might be easier and feed the wildlife! paper mache would have to completely dry too.

Same technique I am using to make tail wads with a form should work for "wad seats" for RB's like you are making. Could be worth a try. If the ball is well centered in the form then the seat will be centered. With a well centered and supported RB and clean releasing wad, accuracy should be about as good as one could expect from round ball in smoothbore. Ball diameter shouldn't really matter as long as it fits the wad.

Rifled gun might need a ball that is a tight squish fit with the wad petals so spin is transferred to the ball but that glue seat should work the same as you have already demonstrated. With all that surface area and being pushed against the ball with 10,000 PSI that should also help transfer spin to the ball.

Which hot melt glue are you using? I use the high strength glue. It is hard almost like polyethylene. Very tough stuff! I've shot slugs with hot melt glue tail wads through an 8" tree then recovered the slugs with tail wads still attached in a dirt bank behind! That glue is tough stuff!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Longbow
Read post #5. It will answer some of your questions. The glue comes up to about 1/3 of the ball height.
The wad petals are connected to each other in three places between each petal. Once at the bottom, then again .375 above that, then again at the top. So, the petals cannot splay open. However, the glue is hot enough, that it causes the petals to get soft enough to expand the diameter of the wad some. They were definitely a good tight fit in the bore.
Hopefully, the biggest factor of the large groups on target, was my eyes. That can be remidied with a scope.
The Blue Dot powder was quite dirty, as I expected. Quite a bit of unburned powder. I have some Herco I will try in the near future.
Jack

[longbow]

Hah! Just like when I go shopping... I can never find what I want until I ask and there it was right in front of me! DOH! Sorry, I guess I saw the bit about punching card wads and didn't read through that post.

Yeah, 0.030" are thick petals! That should be about perfect for 0.678" RB. Mine are a bit loose in Winchester 1 1/4 oz. wads and 1 oz. wads (what I currently have on hand) and pretty good but not tight in Pacific Verelite wads (I have a few left)... that is in my single shot with 0.733" bore. I have to recheck everything for my Mossberg Slugster with 0.729" + bore. Not a big difference but things will be tighter.

That certainly sounds like a good combination of ball and wad. That should work well in rifled gun too.

Even the high strength (hard) hot melt glue will "obturate" to fill the bore. My wad slugs with hot melt glue tail wads do for sure as recovered wads that are loose slide fit to bore with slug show the compression squish from the glue. They fill right out!

Do you cut all the petal attachments after glue installation?

I find Blue Dot a bit dirty but it works well so I don't worry about it. BD tends to be better with heavy payloads and/or heavy charges. I've used it with slugs as light as 1 oz. with moderate charges and got some erratic results and lots of unburned powder. Lee lists rather hefty charges of BD for their 1 oz. slug. I haven't tried that load data but I'm sure it hurts on both ends!

Been wanting to try Herco and HS6 but haven't found it locally. I should look next time I'm in a big city.

Longbow

[HABCAN]

When I was a lot younger and playing sports, a jockstrap sufficed, LOL. :kidding:YMMV. If this is an 'inappropriate' comment, mods please just remove it.

[725]

littlejack - this sounds very doable. Eager to hear the results. The only thing I've ever done was use a 20 ga. cork wad under my 12 ga. ball. Worked so good I never went further. Your idea could be the next level. Go for it and report.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

When I was a lot younger and playing sports, a jockstrap sufficed, LOL. :kidding:YMMV. If this is an 'inappropriate' comment, mods please just remove it.

I'm surprised nobody said it sooner!

[littlejack]

Longbow
I have loaded some heavy BD charges under my Lyman 525 sabots. Yep, they hurt. So, I setteled on a more "user friendly" charge of Herco.
Jack

[littlejack]

725:
If you have a load that works good for you, no sense in changing. Sounds like it is
simple to put together. I will post an update after I get the scope mounted and have another shooting session.

[littlejack]

HABCAN:
That's why I put (round) in the title. It sounded less provocative. Lol

[longbow]

Yeah the underwear thought went through my head too but I resisted the temptation. Us guys that play with our balls a lot have heard it before. It doesn't really get old though so have at 'er! A little humour never hurt anyone.

[littlejack]

I was looking on the BPI site. I think that the Helix Cusion Driver #21, may be a better choice than the #18 I am using.
The cushion section between the powder seal and the cup is taller. This would allow for less filler cards, and maybe a little less recoil.
In the bottom of the cup, my first card wad (.045) clicks into place. This is because the i.d. at the bottom of the cup is a few thousands smaller than the rest of the cup. I think that using just one card with the hot glue support, as opposed to the four (.180) that I have currently been using would suffice. The taller wad would take up the extra space in the hull.
Any thoughts.
Jack

[Petander]

I'm getting nice accuracy with a felt wad in the cup to bring the ball up a bit,then roll crimp the ball down for some pressure.

233894.

My "nice accuracy" means hitting clays @ 40 yds most of the time,these are mild plinker loads.

[littlejack]

Those are some nice lookin rounds. I like your roll crimp better than my folded crimp.
Well, I may be getting a roll crimp tool.
Which one do you use?
Jack

[littlejack]

Also, could you give us some details about your loads. Powder, wads and ball used?

[Petander]

This particular round ball load is such a simple thing:

I take 1 oz Pegoraro factory trap shell,cut the original crimp out and empty the shell from pellets.

I then put a 28 gauge fiber wad (about 1/4 long) in the cup, then the 15 bhn Lee 574 dia (as cast and coated) ball. The fit with the thin shotcup just happens to be snug for my 870. Velocity is only 1250 fps,ball weight 270.

Those ball loads are in the first row,next three rows are a 260 grain pellet-style slugs loaded the same way. It is smaller in dia than the Lee ball and not very accurate in this particular gun,not with this wad.

The last row with five fold crimped rounds is what I'm actually doing,tungsten shot. That means many short range trips with chrono and pattern targets, I take some of these nice'n easy ball slugs with me every time.

233978

[longbow]

You might try using a paper wrap or two on the undersize slugs. That should tighten them up to suit the bore.

Round balls are nice though I have to say. My goal has been decent hunting level accuracy to 100 yards with slugs from smoothbore but I'm still not there yet. If I were to accept defeat more gracefully, I would just accept that 50+ yards is my limit and just load round balls. I have as yet to find a slug that is as easy to cast and load as a round ball and that gives as consistent accuracy out to 50... maybe 60 yards.

Hitting clays consistently at 40 yards is good groups! Well done!

I have had a few slugs that are contenders and may shoot well out to 100 yards but not many and I am revisiting those now before I get too old to enjoy any possible success!

However, round balls are still my favourite!

When you say you cut out the crimp are you leaving the rolled edge and cutting the middle out like the "prepper" tools or cutting the end off the hull then forming new crimp with shorter hull?

Longbow

[littlejack]

Pretender
Thanks for the information. Everyones techniques help everyone. What roll crimping tool are you using. And, I am assuming you are using a drill press to finish your crimp?
The balls that I cast average 477 grains +/-. Haven't Chrony,d the loads yet. Working on the accuracy first.
Regards

[725]

littlejack

I offer an old posting of mine (go to the archive and seek "12 ga roundball success") which details - with pictures - my use of the cork wad, load data, etc. It's a snap to put together and is incredibly accurate for me. The only difficult aspect to it now is the Jeff Tanner .702 cast ball. Tanner passed away and I don't know any current custom round ball mold cutters. My attempts should work well with common - slightly smaller - ball.

If I were to do it again, I'd try a .700 ball or even a little smaller.

[littlejack]

I bought a saddle scope mount for my 870 today at Cabelas. I have read different opinions about the saddle mount from several different forums. I understant that the receiver and barrell being two separate pieces is not an ideal setup. I have taken a lot of the play out of the barrell in the receiver, simply by shimming the barrell. I Think I have thought of a way to improve the rigidity of the mount. I will try that idea if the standard mounting system doesn't seem rigid enough. i.e. large groups.
Longbow
Not meaning to deter you from your goal, but it does sound futile to ask a slug to group well at the hundred yard mark using a smooth bore. I know, you know well, that when rifling the bores came into effect, and stabilizing the projectiles of the muskets, that was a definite improvement over the smooth bore. Firearms became deadly at a lot further distances.
Regards

[Petander]

However, round balls are still my favourite!

When you say you cut out the crimp are you leaving the rolled edge and cutting the middle out like the "prepper" tools or cutting the end off the hull then forming new crimp with shorter hull?

Longbow

This ball thing is sort of addictive,I have a smaller ball mold coming...

I cut the whole rolled edge out. I'm trying to find a proper cutter for a drill press to do it exactly the same every time.

[longbow]

If you are cutting the entire crimp off including rolled edge you might try using a piece of 3/4" pipe cut and faced to the correct length. That is what I use for hull length cutting and gauges. I use a utility knife to cut across the face. Works quite well and is simple.

I just found that a 0.600" RB fits fairly well into the bottom of a CSD wad. Even if that is a flop, a donut wad should work. 3/4 oz. load data should work fine for that so smaller ball at higher velocity. I actually wanted the mould for 2 ball and Tri-Ball loads but the potential is there for a single ball load too.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Longbow
As all I hunt is river bottoms RB is all I have ever needed.
So I was sitting reading and thinking about the paper machete insert. Why not a piece of tubbing with the right inside diameter (or even a cut off piece of hull that was "well used for the form. Wet some standard newspaper. Stuff it in the form, add the RB under pressure. After drying shove the whole unit out the open end wad first.
Have to work a little to get the right height in the shell. I think I will work at it a bit down here as I still have 100 shot shell primers doing nothing and 20 or so RB's lingering in a can.
Have to work on it when the rainy season gets going here...
Mike in Peru

[missionary5155]

Longbow
Just re-read your previous post and saw again your idea about "machining a tube form"... Probably why my thinker thought about it.
Anyway I like it... ready available stuff and cheap to shoot.

[longbow]

Mike:

If felt donut wads are cheap enough and readily available that is likely the simplest answer. I think pretty much anything that keeps the RB centered will work.

What got me going on paper mache and corn meal mush and such was the thought of bore diameter "saddles" with a ball shaped depression in them to support and center the RB. That and the fact that you could make them either bore diameter or wad diameter and to suit any round ball diameter from say 0.600" to 0.715" or so and for in shotcups the paper mache or corn meal or...? would also provide support for the shotcup so no need for nitro card wad.

You are right in that tubing of the right diameter and cut off like donut wads would work too.

I also thought about simply rolling old newspaper, or other waste paper, around a dowel so to leave the appropriate size hole for a ball to sit on/in then cut "disks" off the rolled length as donut wads. That should work too.

I haven't followed up because:

- I get too many projects going and nothing finished (like my rifled choke tube which will be restarted shortly)
- I'm a bit lazy
- I've been messing with slugs more than RB's lately
- I'm a bit lazy
- since I got my 0.678" RB mould those fit standard shotcups well enough not to need a donut wad
- I'm a bit lazy
- most of this stuff (except maybe corn meal) leaves debris around the range... I was almost embarrassed at the amount of confetti floating around (and on the ground) after each shot of paper patched slugs last time out. I can pick up wads but I'm not picking up bucket loads of confetti!
- did I mention I am lazy?

As you well know, round balls do pretty well all on their own out to at least 50 yards. I am thinking that rifling is the next step with round balls... if I get my rifled choke tube finished that is! I suppose round balls in rifled gun or rifled choke tube would also benefit from proper support.

I am thinking that littlejack's hot melt glue idea might be something I should try too. That should make for a pretty solid and form fitting support. With rifled gun it may help transfer spin to the ball too with that form fitting surface area.

I'm all for readily available, easy and cheap! Did I mention I am a bit lazy? And cheap!

Longbow

[littlejack]

I went back to the range last Friday. I did get the scope mounted. The saddle mount seems to be very rigid. I switched to Herco powder, but all else with the loads was the same. At 50 yards, one group of 4 shots measured 3 1/16" ctc, on a diagonal string. Another group of 5 shots, 3 balls measured 1 3/16" ctc then two fliers opening the group to 3 15/16". I'm going back to the range in the morning and shoot some of my slug loads (Lyman 525) to see if the mount is holding the scope solid.
I did shim the barrell to the receiver with some .0035 soda can material. That snugged the barrell up very secure.
I'll give a progress report, on how the slugs shoot tomorrow. Or maybe a regress report on how bad they shoot?
Reguards

[littlejack]

Back from the range.
I shot only my slug loads, to see if the scope and mount were holding solid. I fired three rounds at 25 yards with my Lyman 525 loading . The 3 shots measured .5". One nice little cloverleaf.
I fired 5 shots at 50 yards. They grouped 2 5/8" ctc. So, I would say the the scope and mount are one solid unit.
Now, all I have to do is keep playing with my ball loads, and try to figure out what is causing the occasional fliers.
Has anyone had any difference in point of impact between the sprue being f
iled off, or left on the ball and pointed up in their loads?
Regards

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have always loaded our's sprue up. But do we have any proof positive that at ignition it stays that way. The last RB's I loaded a couple years back I took the time to knife trim the sprue to as near perfect as I could. The three I fired were not any better but they did stay close together at 40 yds.
I do think the "ball rolling process" that makes them near perfect may at least eliminate that issue. But then I have no personal proof. But some fellers that shoot smoothbore muzzle loader matches and win some do tumble there RB's in a machine that ruffs the surface.
For my river bottoms hunting my longest shot to date is still 33 yards taken near 15 years ago. For me a 3" + group at 50 yards is more than what I need. But it still is fun to keep on trying to get better.
Mike in Peru

[Petander]

Excellent accuracy,congrats. I'll get to 12 gauge 525 Lymans soon,got some 500 cast & coated.

I also have the same mount in my 20 gauge 870. All good.

About flyers... I get some with my 20 gauge Tri Ball load... the load is under construction in many ways but the occasional 10" flyer is there. I do not think it't the sprue position but I might be wrong.

My tumbled & coated Lee cast #4 buckshot is better than I expected by the way.

[littlejack]

In my quest for more accurate round ball loads, I am adding three different load recipes for comparison.
Along with the traditional ball in full wad dress, I am dissecting the wads and using both the powder seal and cup. Maybe you ask, why? As everyone knows, the projectile has to leave the muzzle perfectly. If it tips, that will produce fliers, (bigger groups. So, in trying to accomplish the best departure from the muzzle, I am eliminating the wad cushion, to take out some of the tipping factor as the wad leaves the muzzle. I know, that I am by far not the first to try this, but I will give it a try so I can sleep at night knowing I did try it.
My first loads:
Win. Super-X hull, Win. 209 primed.
35 grns. Herco.
Powder seal. ( BPI #18 Helix Cushion Driver)
3 - 16 ga. .070 nitro wads. (To raise cup heigth)
Shot cup. (BPI #18 Helix Cushion Driver)
5 - .045 cards. Spacers to raise ball to proper crimp height.
Other loadings will basically be the same except:
Adding hot glue for ball support in 10 rounds.
Corn meal under ball for support, 10 rounds.
10 rounds of full dress wad and ball loads.
Will try to get to the range this week and give a progress report.
Regards

[littlejack]

Thank you for the information Mike.
Regards

[littlejack]

Thank you Petander.
Regards

[longbow]

littlejack:

I'm not expecting rifle like accuracy at 100 yards from a smoothbore shotgun with slugs or RB's. In fact I am pretty sure that decent hunting size groups past about 70 yards is a no go. The smoothbore musket shooters can compete with rifled guns all the way to 100 yards so I have read and been told. I suspect that is a good marksman with a carefully worked out load and patch/ball fit shooting against somewhat more average shooters with their rifles but the fact seems to be that a smoothbore muzzleloader can deliver decent hunting accuracy pretty much out to 100 yards.

You are certainly right that when rifled guns came into existence they were far more accurate than smoothbores but bear in mind that the custom in shooting smoothbore muskets was using a loose ball for easy loading. The military muskets used quite grossly undersize balls so they were fast and easy to load. They did not expect to be able to hit a man with an aimed shot past 50 yards. Massed volley fire was the military method... get the range and lob lots of lead!

The cloth patched round ball rifle was significantly more accurate than that but "smooth" rifles ~ that is long arms that looked like a rifle with rifle sights ~ were also common and could be quite accurate with tightly patched ball to common hunting ranges (to qualify, I have read and been told this but not done it or personally seen it).

Now having said that we are using new fangled modern cartridge loading firearms but we have to deal with oversize chambers, inaccurate (in gun tolerances) cartridge to chamber fits (read sloppy), opening a crimp and the RB jumping through the forcing cone to bore which the smoothbore musket shooter does not. He has a tightly patched ball guided all the way to the muzzle.

So, I don't expect round balls from smoothbore to be terribly accurate at 100 yards. However, since I can generally count on 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good round ball loads and some slug loads, if the slug is well stabilized and that group size doubled or double and a bit by 100 yards it still wouldn't be that large ~ 6" to maybe 10". I'd take that! Especially with a decent slug (Brenneke, Gualandi, Vitt-Boos, etc.).

I have shot several sub 6" groups with factory loaded Foster slugs which I find frustrating! The factories can seem to produce such consistency in their loads that they can achieve a decent level of accuracy to 100 yards but I have as yet to do that consistently with home cast and loaded slugs. Makes me feel like a failure!

In rifled gun, I have to think a round ball either groove diameter (or a hair larger) or a ball in proper fitting shotcup should provide darn good accuracy at 100 yards. The only issue I see with modern rifled guns is that they have a fast (for round ball) rifling twist so over spin the ball. A 12 ga. round ball wants something like 1:110" twist not 1:36" twist. I can't say that spinning the ball 3 times as fast as required is detrimental but I can think that transferring that twist rate to a RB in a shotcup may be problematic due to small contact area and lack of friction. If the ball isn't spun to the same rate each time or if it rolls a bit as it is spun then accuracy will be less precise.

If I ever finish my slow twist rifled choke tube (restarted that project again) I will do my best to find out. My goal is consistent sub 6" groups at 100 yards. My rifled choke tube will be 1:72" twist which his still fast for a round ball but much more reasonable for accelerating the ball without skidding. I think anyway.

I just asked on another thread for some info on the Lyman 525 gr. slug accuracy in smoothbore and rifled guns. I do not have that mould (yet) but would like one... but I am not convinced it will get me anywhere my Lee slugs and slugs from my home made moulds won't get me. Your 5 shot 2 5/8" group at 50 yards is very good and if that held up to 100 yards you'd have groups between 5" and 6" which would make me happy! I'd think those could be tightened up some with a bit of work too so quite acceptable from a shotgun in my opinion.

I still have to think that a tight fitting round ball in shotcup should do as well. A full bore round ball should too and from limited experience shooting some 0.735" RB's from a borrowed rifled gun I got several 5 shot groups of similar size at 2" +/- a bit at 50 yards. I didn't get a chance to shoot to 100 yards to see if accuracy held up but recovered balls showed nice clean engraving with no sign of skidding.

Anyway, I'm rambling on again!

Back to topic... If we can provide a solid, non tipping platform that will keep that ball centered and well guided into the forcing cone then we should be able to compete with patched ball from smoothbore musket and produce hunting level groups (say 6" to 8" groups on demand) to at least 70 yards or so. Not sure many (if any) here can do that.

I am pretty sure I will have to break down and buy a rifled barrel though.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Great post Longbow.
I was thinking the other day about the round ball being over spun as you stated. It seems to me that if there is any imperfections in the ball at all, it would be a lot more detrimental to the flight path the faster it is spun. Don't know if my assumption is correct though. There must be a very good reason (better accuracy?) for the amount of spin settled on by early barrell makers and firearm manufacturers. After the twist rate had been established for a certain ball diameter, it did no good to spin the ball faster. There was no improvement in accuracy.
So again, I ask myself, if the sprue is left on the ball and the ball is spun fast, and the sprue gets the slightest bit canted, would the faster spinning ball get out of balance more so, than a slower twist spinning ball?
A smooth ball has the same B.C. no matter which way it is turned. But if the sprue is sticking out to one side, that has to change the B.C. even if slightly. If there is more drag on one side, that has to effect it's flight path, even if it is just a little.
Now, I'm rambling.
Regards

[littlejack]

Don't know if anyone is interested?
I picked up a 4 # jug of Alliant Herco powder at Sportsmans Warehouse in Albany, Oregon Saturday for 69.97. That's 17.49 per pound.
I use it in my 12 ga. slug/ball loads.
I've used it in my 45 Colt loads for over 7 years. Good case fill, burns clean, and measures better for me than Unique. I also use it in my target/plinking and medium heavy .41 magnum loadings.
Regards

[Cast_outlaw]

So for my round ball loads I use a cork, as mine are 128gr .440 rb. my mom drinks dry sack Sheri, and the corks measure .729. I drill out the middle, and force the ball or two in. l also slice them into wafers for other applications. after exiting the barrel the cork turns to powder and releases the balls i achieve ok accuracy it will hit a 2’ plate at 50 yards in a smooth bore most of the time (could be partly my falt on that)

[littlejack]

Cast outlaw:
Are you saying you shoot a .440 ball out of a 12 ga. shotgun? The .729 sounds like a full size bore size, depending on the choke you're using?
Regards

[longbow]

That is a pretty small ball/light payload for 12 ga. but I like your thinking. I hadn't considered wind corks for "sabots". I may still have some though I haven't made wine for years. I'll check that because they could make handy sabots for undersize RB's or slugs.

They'd be a little thin walled for 0.600" RB's but may work.

I'm thinking that if you are using your mothers sherry corks for your shooting either you don't shoot much or she drinks quite a bit! Mind you as little shooting as I am getting in lately a couple of corks would do me a while! Got to get to the range!

Okay something else to check and try!

littlejack:

Yes, in my opinion over spinning is bad because of both potential for skidding and the sprue stub will never be perfectly centered. Of course a guy can file it off or tumble the balls... or do some testing with swaged RB's which are readily available in many sizes though maybe not 12 ga.

Look at typical patch ball rifle twist rates ~ for .50 caliber 1:66" to 1:72" seems common. Pacific Rifle Company runs very slow twists (ran? Might be closed now):

Pacific Rifle Co. Underhammer .72 Caliber Zephyr...

Barrel Length: 30"
Land-to-Land: .720"
Groove-to-Groove: .730"
Rate of Twist: 1 turn-in-104"
Ignition: Underhammer Percussion - Musket Cap
Ball Diameter: .705" (from Pacific Rifle Co.)
Ball Weight: 525 grains
Patch: .020" Lubed Cotton

Found a blogspot: http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/

October Country is still around and they do slow twist big bores too:

http://www.octobercountry.com/oc-sporting-rifles-62-66-69-72-and-75-cal/

Round balls and square slugs don't need much twist to stabilize and over spinning in my opinion will exaggerate any out of balance issues and large diameter projectiles can have imbalances quite far from center. My opinion anyway. That and the potential for skidding especially using shotcups are concerns for me.

Certainly those 0.735" RB's didn't skid in the rifling but balls or slugs in shotcups is a different thing all together.

Longbow

[littlejack]

When I restarted this project a few weeks ago, I was filing the sprues off the balls. Quite a tedious and time consuming job. Trying to hold it in one hand and filing with the other and keeping the file from chattering proved to be a challenge in of itself. I think I will work on trying to get the wad cup to clear the muzzel as straight as possible for starters. At least try to remove that aspect of possible fliers from the equation.
I tell ya what, those Zephyr rifles are fine looking firearms. If my eyes were a lot better, I think I would consider getting on of those beauties.
To bad we can't buy a shotgun barrel with a lot less twist rate. Eh?
Regards

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If I am remembering right I am thinking our Pedersoli rifled 12 muzzleloader has about a 1-90 twist.
Only fault I can see with it is it needs two rear sights to impact at 100 yards within a 4 inch circle. At 50 yards (where it was possible regulated) it does very well making cloverleafs. But once again it is a patched RB sitting on BP.

Was sitting here re-reading page 3 and trying to think up here at 8000 ft.. why does our caliber .60 smooth rifles shoot well out to 60-65 yards... Could well be those longer barrels. One is 38 inches the other 42 inches. And again a patched RB sitting on BP.
So there is no forcing cone, no wad that might wiggle about, a mostly constant barrel pressure around the patched round ball and a sight radius near 50% longer. Course a scope on a modern barrel will easily overcome sight radius.
Mike in Peru

[725]

The thrust of many of these accuracy quests has been to center the ball with supporting bases; like doughnuts, etc. I attacked the problem from a different angle. I intentionally chose a slightly over-sized ball and forgiving plastic wad (with petals) to launch down my rifled barrel. I put a 20 ga cork wad in the 12 ga shot cup to cushion the ball during first acceleration and relied on the tight fit of the ball / shot cup to center the ball. Worked well and was frighteningly simple. Folded crimp. The loaded shell had a slight equator noticeable from the circumference of the ball. Light thumb pressure to load in a single shot and no noticeable effort from an 870. YMMV

[Skipper]

Like longbow, I'm using a lubed cotton patch...they work fairly well.
Also, I snotted coffee through my nose when I read the topic title Supporting our round balls
I was thinking Jockey Shorts?
:veryconfu

[littlejack]

Back from the range "again".
Ok fellas, had some interesting results. The loads assembled with powder, powder seal, 3- .070 nitro wads, wad cup, 5- .045 card spacers, were a definate failure.
I picked up most of the powder seals, and 95% of them were blown out one side.
95% of the wad cups had two of the petals blown/ripped off, on one side. I am assuming on the same side that the powder seal had blown out?
I only shot at 50 yards. "10 rounds fired" The cups with the hot glue pocket had a spread of approximately 11". Yep, you read that right. Lol
"10 rounds fired" The loads with only the .045 card spacers in the cup, again 11". Although six of the ten held at 4".
"6 rounds fired" These were assembled with the intact Helix Cushion Driver wad with five .045 spacer cards in the cup to bring the ball to proper crimp height. Five shots in 2 .625", with the sixth shot opening up the group to 3.125" .
Finding most of the wads, showed slight cantng to one side of the cup base, down to the seal when set on a flat surface. This shows that the cushion between the cup and seal is not compressing equally through the bore. Therefore, when the wad cup and ball just clears the muzzle, there is a possibility the the powder seal is pushed slightly tipped out the muzzle. (Blowby on one side) The Helix Cushion Driver wad has a very stiff cushion section. I don't know if that is a help or a hindrance to these ball loads. The ww12 wads have more of a cushion.
Regards

[littlejack]

Mike
As you stated, the patched rb surly isn't going to be bounced from side to side down the bore. Although, I really can't imagine a wad tightly holding the ball and a few thousands over groove size not being centered. The only other contributing factor for fliers, would be it's release at the muzzel.

[littlejack]

Skipper
Nothing wrong with "supporting our round balls" lol
I hate it when I do that with my coffee. [smilie=b:
So, you are using a patched rb in the wad cup, correct?

[littlejack]

725
What wad are you using, and in what hull?
Maybe I should try to find your data in the archives? Duh

[littlejack]

Ok, somebody want to direct me to the "archives"
Probably right where I was looking.

[JBinMN]

725
What wad are you using, and in what hull?
Maybe I should try to find your data in the archives? Duh

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322104-12ga-round-ball-success

Post#11:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322104-12ga-round-ball-success&p=3868635&viewfull=1#post3868635

Might be what you are looking for. The first post from the top link has pertinent info about the firearm & barrel being used. I suggest reading it first if this is what you were looking for....

[longbow]

Okay then there's another variable I missed mentioning...

When I first got serious about RB loads a few years ago I started out with 0.735" RB's on cushion legs with petals cut off. That didn't go too well at all. Accuracy was poor and recovered wads told the tale!

Generally the gas seal was blown as littlejack mentions but even worse, the top of the cushion leg had obviously tried to extrude itself around the ball due to unsupported edges. They were warped and cracked. So, I decided to add a nitro card wad under the ball... or maybe 2. That helped but even then the nitro card wads were cupped fairly obviously after firing.

So, I went the next step and cut just the gas seal off the cushion leg then stacked hard card wad and nitro card wads on top. That did it! Now the gas seal had a solid base to push on so it sealed nice and even and accuracy improved bunches! That 0.735" RB doesn't even bounce down my oversize 0.733" bore! I was pretty happy.

I did try other wad columns, one being the plastic gas seal then a couple of nitro card wads then a fiber wad to cushion the ball a bit and form a saddle. Didn't work at all! Back to the hard card wad column for me!

The other big success I had was the 0.662" RB cloth patched to snug fit in bore with shotcup, 20 ga. or 16 ga. nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup then a small scoop of COW on top to form a nice seat for the ball, push the patched ball into the shotcup in the hull, crimp and good to go. That is one of the best shooting combinations I've tried in smoothbore.

I prefer loading RB's in shotcups because I'm lazy and it's easy! 0.678" RB fits pretty well in a few standard shotcups though it is slightly loose in my current Winchester shotcups so accuracy isn't up to par, not bad but could be better. One wrap of paper in the shotcup snugs it right up.

Also, on the gas seal note... I have some Claybuster Winchester clones for 1 oz. shot loads I bought to try for RB's and Lee slugs since the cup is the right depth as is (no trimming petals). The little divots they have (4 of them) around the gas seal tend to burn out and accuracy is poor. I think littlejack's comment about gas escape at the muzzle is right on. I found Win AA Reds to be poor as well with many gas seal edges being burned.

My genuine Winchester wads do not do that and shoot okay as did my Pacific Verelite wads which I am about out of now unfortunately. They were a little thicker petal and tough with good gas seals.

Gas seals Are something else patched ball front stuffer shooters do not have to contend with either!

Yeah littlejack... 725 posted his combination of 0.702" RB and shotcup a few months back. He's had great success with it and I have to think he is right that the wad he picked has tough petals that extrude without shearing so the ball is a tight centered fit in the bore. Last time I tried a 0.690" RB in shotcup it actually fit into reasonably well the petals sheared (like all 4 of them!) and once again accuracy was poor. I wouldn't have thought a 0.702" RB would work but I guess if the shotcup is tough enough then it acts as a perfect sabot. You couldn't ask for simpler... a round ball dropped into a shotcup. If accuracy is good what's not to like!?!

Longbow

[longbow]

There! JBinMN got it!

Those Claybusters look like a Federal clone. I wonder if they use different plastics in different wads (clones)? From what I've read the Federals are very tough too but I don't have any. I'll have to order some. Nothing around here locally.

[JBinMN]

Ok, somebody want to direct me to the "archives"
Probably right where I was looking.

I posted earlier what I thought you might be looking for, but since you also wanted the way to the Archives, here is that link as well:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/f-8.html

You would likely have more luck searching by using a few keywords, as I did in a search engine like in my earlier post to ya, though.

Hope I was helpful anyway.

Back to round balls.
;)

[725]

littlejack,

I pushed my load up until the petals deformed and then reduced to the point that they just held together. Once I got over the notion that my load "must be tooooooo light" and started seeing my results, I shucked the comments from my friends who said that that much powder wasn't enough and just went with what worked. It's been a one shot stopper, accurate and fun as could be. My last deer was about 75 yards and a real DRT. Honestly, you'd think somebody dropped a pallet of bricks on 'em. Basically a .70 caliber, pure lead round ball -- OUCH ! If I were to do the experimentation all over again, I might go down to a .700 ball mold, but no smaller. Now that Jeff Tanner is gone, I've lost the urge to experiment further. My little system does more than I need and has yet to fail me. I'm lucky to have a Hastings heavy barrel for the 870 (which I've cut down to a 19" barrel) and the H&R heavy 12 ga barrel fitted to my 10 ga. receiver. Length of pull on each has been shortened to 13" which makes for a handy tree stand hunting shotgun. Best of luck. I'm sure there are several ways to get the performance you want. Mine is just one way. Lots of ways to skin a cat.
725

[725]

longbow,

I'm not certain how tough the plastic is on the shotcup I use. I know if I pushed the amount of powder up they went to blazes. I reduced until they survived the trip down the barrel. Recovered shotcups displayed clear rifling engraved into the plastic, but all the petals stayed in tact. ????? In my case you could say that even blind mice find cheese once in a while.

[725]

littlejack,

I went back and dug up the title of my old post. Up in the top right of this page is a search feature. I put in, "12ga round ball success", and it brought up my old post. Dig through it and therein listed are all the components and related info.

725

[longbow]

Another guy that had good results using a USH (IIRC) with 0.690" in shotcup loaded kinda oddly, but successfully, was TRG3. He hasn't posted for a long time.

He said he had good results by cutting two opposing petals off the wads! You'd think that would reduce the friction and guidance down the bore because the ball is undersize so wouldn't touch the rifling ~ only two petals taking the load and transferring twist to the ball. However, he said he got fine accuracy this way and again, it is simple so if it works, what's not to like. I like simple and I like things that work. And I like big 'ol round balls!

I really should get me a rifled barrel!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Thank you all for your input.
Seems like one combination works for some folks and their firearms. But, use that same combination in another firearm, and good luck. Sound familiar?
"The only thing absolute in reloading is, nothing is absolute."

Thank you 725 the information. Thats really odd, you can use the .702 ball in a wad and not be so far over pressure as to have issues.
I'm trying another combination tomorrow. I loaded up some rounds using Remington Gun Club hulls (tapered) with the #18 Helix Cushion Driver. The previous loads were with Winchester Super-X hulls. ( straight wall)
I tried the Rem. Gun Club loads with the WAA12 (White) wad, but the .678 ball was to loose to be held centered down the bore. There also had to have been some stripping down the barrell with the ball not big enough (or petals to thin) to push the wad petals into the rifling. Accuracy was poor, groups were "patterns".
The #18 HCD wad is definitely snug in the Rem. tapered hull. The petals are .030 thick from top to bottom. They will definately hold the ball centered, and tight into the rifling.
The Rem. Gun Club hulls I use for my Lyman slug loads. The slug has two different diameters. The top driving band being the largest diameter and the bottom skirt o.d. smaller. So the slug fits the cup in the WAA12 with their tapered petal thickness perfect.
Range update tomorrow.
Regards

[Cast_outlaw]

O
Cast outlaw:
Are you saying you shoot a .440 ball out of a 12 ga. shotgun? The .729 sounds like a full size bore size, depending on the choke you're using?
Regards

Yes a .440 rb in a 12 gauge I’m using an 870 express with a slug berrel and the corks at soft enoulf to squish down through even a full choke but I tend to just change over the barrels

[Cast_outlaw]

[QUOTE=longbow;4561833]That is a pretty small ball/light payload for 12 ga. but I like your thinking. I hadn't considered wind corks for "sabots". I may still have some though I haven't made wine for years. I'll check that because they could make handy sabots for undersize RB's or slugs.

They'd be a little thin walled for 0.600" RB's but may work.

I'm thinking that if you are using your mothers sherry corks for your shooting either you don't shoot much or she drinks quite a bit! Mind you as little shooting as I am getting in lately a couple of corks would do me a while! Got to get to the range!

Okay something else to check and try!

They are quite a lite payload and I started trimming the pedals off used wads to put under the cork sometimes they do get down range with some authority and I can’t take all the credit for the corks my dad (god rest his sole) told me about them years ago and saved a pile I’ve got a few liquor stor bags full and no I don’t get to the range as much as I’d like or used to because I have a disabled wife and full time job as a roofing Forman some times I work 11 and 12h days so don’t get a lot of trigger time ar reloading time

[longbow]

You and me both! I should be making more time for the range but working full time (more or less anyway) and the usual responsibilities plus a wife with lupus so we don't get out like we used to.

What powder are you using under that light payload? I'd have to think only fast powders like Bullseye, 700X, Red Dot or similar would be fast enough for that light ball. Are you willing to share load data?

I will be working up loads for the single 0.660" RB but that is close enough to some of the light BPI load data it shouldn't be too hard to do. They have some light payload high velocity data listed in their archives.

Just noticed you are in B.C. too. Where are you located?

There are a couple of other Cast Boolit members here in Castlegar with me BCJay and Ginsing. One day we'll get together and shoot! We've talked about it enough!

Longbow

[longbow]

littlejack:

Absolutely! there are no absolutes! Hey... wait a minute... I mean in reloading. I have one gun with 0.733" bore and one with 0.729" bore so there's a significant fit difference right there!

I've been leaning towards a full bore or wad slug designed to crush like Brenneke and HB slugs so that I can cast for the largest bore and get good fit but that the slug will crush or wad give to allow shooting in the tighter bore too. Brenneke Classic is apparently 0.735" for that reason yet will crush to go through a full choke or work in rifled gun.

Still working on it!

The undersize RB in shotcup or donut wad still appeals to me... or maybe in a wine cork! I do like the simplicity and history of round balls.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

After a long, but never long enough hunting season, plus the usual break for holidays, I'm ready to get back at the shotgun slugs. Back in September or so I had come up with a load on recommendation to use PSB buffer under a .735" round ball. It turns out that it works really well. It shot as good as anything at 50 yards, one ragged hole, but I'm still looking for those nice 100 yard groups from a rifled barrel. From recovered balls, I noticed that the bearing band was not even all the way around. How I am going to get around that, I'm not sure. One other thing was that sometimes the crimps got ripped off the hulls, which has not happened to me before while using round ball. Today I loaded 32 grains bluedot, X12x gas seal, 3 nitro cards, scoop PSB buffer, and ball. This is identical to what I used this fall, but with a reduced powder charge. The other load is the same powder charge, but with only a ballistic products light brush wad, and I used an 1/8" cork wad over the ball to get a good crimp on those. I casted these with a little harder alloy, not enough to matter. If they don't engrave evenly after trying different wad stacks, I am going to try some heat treated. I am also going to load some in a 3" hull to see if that has any effect.

[Hogtamer]

msm, if you are blowing the crimps off the hulls you had best quit now and refigure. Think about the huge pressure that takes. Be safe!

[megasupermagnum]

I won't post to powder charge, I will only say that it is significantly higher than 32 grains. That old "piledriver" slug data that goes up to 44 grains is not safe. I would consider 34 grains of bluedot a safe maximum of bluedot with a .735" slug in a 2 3/4" hull.

[longbow]

I agree msm! I go higher than 34 grs though with no sign of sticky extraction. I found 38 grs. to be more than enough recoil for me so dropped back to 36 grs. I did not see any pressure signs at 38 grs. but would not venture past 40 grs. of BD under the 0.735" RB anyway. Also, that was with my 0.733" bore single shot so generous bore diameter.

The Precision Rifle load data was a bit sketchy as well in that they did not identify hull or primer except to say "New straight walled hull." I will add that as far as I remember the 610 gr. Piledriver was slightly under "standard" groove diameter which would reduce pressure somewhat.

I have wondered why the round nose slugs and big RB's do not run over the roll crimp but so far I have not had it happen to me. I have had some torn crimps on old hulls that were not in good shape but never on hulls in reasonable shape (I tend to use them till they are a bit "crisp" sometimes). Torn crimps are just a bit of the end of the hull.

How much did you lose? What condition were hulls?

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Buffer is hard on hulls, and that combined with a tight fitting slug with a more than needed amount of powder did not help. These were also older gold medal hulls, some with split crimps. I did get pressure signs at 38 grains, the ejector slot on my USH shows up. I get a little dent with full power ammo anyway, but 38 grains was excessive. This was in the gold medal hull, and may have be fine in a low base federal, or a Fiocchi. If you are using cushion wads, especially in a 3" hull, you could use more powder. I should also note I use Federal 209A primers exclusively unless using a new primed hull.

For as much shooting as I do outside of published data, I should really buy the pressure trace system. I've been saying that for how long now, I think that is what I'll do with some of my tax return. Reading dents on a shotgun hull as pressure signs is not ideal.

[longbow]

I haven't tried buffer but have used lots of COW. The COW seems to cushion and cradle the ball. I actually don't recall if I ever used COW under 0.735" RB's or not but I don't think so. I can see that COW or buffer could pack/swell out against the hull and he hard on things.

I have used lots of COW in shot cups under balls but there it is contained, more or less, with slippery plastic between it and hull/bore. Never had a problem with it.

Yes, pressure trace gear would be nice. Been thinking about it myself.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Made it to the range and back home. Still have all my
extremities. [smilie=w:
Was a crisp 31°, so I talked myself out of wearing my
Bermuda's.
The load combination:
Rem. Gun Club hull.
30 grains of Herco.
#18 Helix Cushion Driver wad. Wad was definitely a tight fit
in the tapered hull.
2 .045 riser card wads under ball.
.678 ball weighing 477 grains. (Measures .675)
8 point fold crimp.
I made a scope adjustment before my first shot at 25 yards.
5 shots fired.
5 balls into 1 .75", with 4 balls in 1.25". The first shot was the
odd ball. "pun intended". Don't know if it was the scope
settling in, the clean bore, or the cold barrell. Or maybe the
shooter?
Moved the target back to 50 yards. 10 shots fired.
The ten shots had two separate groups, 4 inch centers apart.
The first 5 ball group measured 2.5". The second 5 ball
group measured 4".
That looks suspiciously like the scope mount may have
shifted after the fifth shot, starting a separate group. So, I am
adding one D&T hole in the receiver to lock the mount down
secure.
Of all the wads I collected, there was not one petal missing,
and all the powder seals were all intact. (No blow by)
The balls did set back, causing some of the card spacers
under the ball to be pushed into the cup base. The card
spacers need to be something more than what they are.
Maybe polypropylene or equal to that to support the ball.

Longbow
I had thought about getting a full bore ball mold. There are
so many components to experiment with. I really want to get
these ball and cup loads to work.

I read where two of our posters can get one hole groups at
50 yards. It can't get any better than that. To me, that is
amazing accuracy.
Regards

[megasupermagnum]

I'll quantify what I mean when I say "one ragged hole". In reality, it is probably more about 1.5" CTC. Still very good at 50 yards with any slug, and can be done with a ball in a rifled barrel.

[Petander]

i haven't tried buffer but have used lots of cow. The cow seems to cushion and cradle the ball. I actually don't recall if i ever used cow under 0.735" rb's or not but i don't think so.

cow?

235046

[Ginsing]

Cream of wheat

[littlejack]

msm:
I definitely agree, that is very good shooting. Hoping I can
work up 2" - 2.5" consistantly with the wad and ball
combination. Or "down to" depending how you look at it. Lol

[littlejack]

Petander:
Lol :redneck:

[longbow]

Yes nice accuracy!

How do those 0.678" RB's fit in the Helix cushion drivers... in the bore?

I have to recheck but I am sure mine were a snug fit in Pacific Verelite wads that I had a bag of (now almost gone) but they are a bit loose in my Winchester and Claybuster wads so I've taken to using a wrap of paper. Actually one wrap for my Mossberg slugster and 2 wraps for my fat bore single shot. Got to test both loads and guns side by side to see if it makes a difference.

I'd prefer to load for the largest bore and have things squish down for a tighter bore or moderate choke... as long as it shoots well.

Yes, too many variable and components! Too many powders, too many wads, too many hulls, too many primers, too much "stuff" to have all of it to match many recipes! I think Randy has the right idea... load like birdshot loads at moderate pressure with reasonably fast powders like Green Dot. Maybe not the highest velocity but if it shoots well and the powder can be used in multiple hulls and with multiple wads it makes like so much easier! If it wasn't so dirty I'd be happy using BP and have though about subs for slugs. In fact I used to have fun loading 0.690" RB's over up to 4 drams of BP. Accuracy wasn't very good but that was the loose RB. With good fit it would work.

I like the slug/RB in shotcup because they are easy to load and seem to produce quite decent accuracy easily. I think a naked full bore ball may have a tendency to roll when opening a crimp and or jumping through the forcing cone. As msm noted, I have seen uneven "belts" around recovered 0.735" RB's though they seemed to shoot well enough.

Yes... COW doesn't = cow http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=235046&d=1549038592

COW = Cream 'O Wheat. Th eSouthern boys like Hogtamer like grits better. To each his own!

I'd have trouble squeezing a cow into a shotcup I think! Pretty easy to put a small scoop of COW into a shotcup though.

Longbow

[Mr_Sheesh]

I imagine if you DID manage to squeeze a cow into that shotcup, picking that shell up and loading it'd be quite tough, and messy; And then you'd probably have SEVERE pressure signs. Plus the range would kick you out instantly, can you imagine the MESS?

[centershot]

littlejack, In my experience, the "one jagged hole @ 50 yds." type of group was dependent on a REALLY tight fit in the bore. IIRC, I was running a combination that miked .739" through my M500 rifled bore. Nothing else came close until I stepped up the diameter. I did so incrementally by paper patching the ball inside the shotcup, using thicker and thicker paper until it came together. See here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?369800-Centershot-Sabots

It is tedious messing with that paper patch so I'm now working with a .690" ball to see if I can duplicate the accuracy without the patch. We'll see..........

[longbow]

Dwarf cow? Still, you are right even if I got it to fit there be a heck of a mess!

Hah! On a slightly different topic... there is a guy in England that "shoots cows" and that meaning the cow is a projectile, though not jammed in a shotcup:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/17/johnezard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysAZStF51Yg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b49jTfqKrbw

Not a shotgun but pretty impressive medieval technology! I always liked trebuchets. I build a small one to launch water balloons for a Cuboree (Cub Scout) camp with medieval theme. It would launch a softball size water balloon about 30 to 40 meters.

But I digress...

Longbow

[longbow]

Centershot:

Even though you posted that thread recently and I read it and responded, I had forgotten details. I blame memory loss on a misspent youth!

That really is impressive! Not sure if you were part of the conversation or if it was in this thread (that darn memory loss thing) so I'll repeat it briefly. A member, TRG3, used 0.690" RB in shotcup (I can't recall brand of model) in USH rifled gun. He said it was a tight fit so he cut 2 opposing petals off and that worked. Not sure why cutting 2 petals off would shoot better than with both because effectively the diametral fit is the same, just less bearing contact. Anyway, he said that produced very good accuracy.

And if you missed it 725 uses 0.702" RB in a shotcup so REALLY tight! He says that works very well for him.

A search should find both threads. There may be something to help you out there though you seem to have this sorted out pretty well.

You might try cloth patching a 0.678" or 0.690" RB as the cloth should provide a somewhat adjustable squish fit in the shotcup ~ firm but still a bit of give. I'm thinking a 0.678" RB patched with thick cloth might provide better bearing area and more distributed pressure on the wad petals.

Longbow

[littlejack]

The wad petals measure .030 thick. My balls drop at .675 average, depending on where you measure them. For a total of .735. My bore slugs at .729. The wad and ball fit into the tapered Gun Club hull very snug. The combination fits down the bore very snug.
Finished securing the scope saddle yesterday, as well a tightening the barrell in the receiver for no movement. I managed to replace the .0035 shim with a .005 shim. Now I have to cast up more balls.
Regards

[longbow]

I just shimmed my Mossberg Slugster as well. I used 0.005" brass shim stock after having made a full wrap around shim out of pop can at about 0.0035". The pop can shim was a bit fragile and wrinkled. The brass is much better and is only a partial wrap but really snugged things up. Might not make a big difference in smoothbore but it won't hurt and if I get a rifled barrel it will be a bonus to have it fit tightly. I think anyway.

I am wishing I had loaded up earlier this week but the weather forecast was for -12 to -20 C this weekend and into next week. However, it is actually about 3 C right now and quite nice. I will try to load up slugs and round balls this weekend so I am ready for next weekend to finally get shooting and post some results for a change.

I'll load up some 0.678" RB's in shotcups to try out in the Slugster too. I just might give your hot melt glue idea a try while I am at it.

I should add that the fit you and others are using is much tighter than what was generally accepted in the past... at least for smoothbores. The old rule of thumb was no more than about 0.003" over bore or choke but the rifled guns seem to like a very tight fit. Plastic petals should just squish down anyway especially with the small contact a ball has.

Thanks for posting such detail. I am still learning and trying. Its all good stuff!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Of topic, need to know.
What type of stock, or riser do you fellas use to bring your cheek/eye to scope height? I have a leather lace up riser, but it doesnt really apeal to me. I would like to get a basic birch Monte Carlo stock, but I don't know if they even make them with cheap wood.

[megasupermagnum]

I use one of those Kydex adjustable combs on a couple guns. They work very well if you are willing to drill holes in the stock. The next best thing I've found is some foam pad and electrical tape. Ugly, but possibly the most comfortable. The beartooth is garbage.

[littlejack]

msm:
Thank you for the heads up on the Beartooth. That was one of the options I had.
I read a negative review on one of the other cheek risers. He didn't like the product, but went on to say how he made one for his rifle. He used a piece of the foam pipe
insulation, and banded it on and around the stock with the medical self adhering tape. Not the tape with adhesive on it, but it stretches and sticks to itself. Then he used mole skin to cover the area that you put your cheek on. Not the most beautiful, but functional.
I'm a courier for a medical lab. I think I can sweet talk one of our phlebotomists, and get a roll of the self adhering wrap they use.

[megasupermagnum]

I'll expand on my experience with the beartooth comb rising kit. There are two problems. One, it forms a square comb. Not the end of the world, but not very good. Two, the foam slips around. It would probably work if all you were doing was 1/4", but trying to monte carlo style 1" or more, it doesn't work.

I have some range reports. In the rifled gun, the round balls didn't shoot quite as good as the heavier powder charges. About 2 1/2" at 50 yards. I'm thinking more powder caused the balls to expand in the bore, and form a better fit. Through the smooth bore, they were horrible, not all were even on paper. I tried some rifled slugs as well, and they shot ok, nothing spectacular. I managed to recover one ball, the rest were lost. The interesting this was there is no bearing band on the slug! I later measured it at .731". I went through my stash of round balls casted the same day as this one, ever single one was .734". This is really puzzling to me, but I won't focus on it too much, as there is another problem. I slugged the bore of the gun, and found it to be .731". That's no problem, the problem is the bearing band on that slug is not even all the way around. I don't mean more on one side, I mean it is wavy. I confirmed by measuring, that almost all the balls are out of round by at least .001". It may not sound like much, but it seems to be effecting things greatly. I will try upping the powder, and see if they will shoot better.

[longbow]

Are those balls cast in a 0.735" RB mould?

Something I found is that some of the recovered balls showed an off center or uneven band that indicated rolling into the bore to me. Not terribly surprising since the ball is free to do what it wants as it opens the crimp and jumps through the forcing cone but the uneven bands (more on one side than the other) indicate that the ball somehow started and stayed off center in the bore! I'da thunk the ball would be self centering but I guess if it hits the forcing cone off center it can start a flat there and go into the bore off center. Having said that accuracy with the 0.735" RB's was pretty consistent and quite good from smoothbore. Even better from rifled gun.

What alloy are you casting from? I generally use WW or range scrap which runs pretty close to ACWW.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

These are cast from a JT single ball brass mold, supposed to be .735", but run .734". I'm using COWW + 2% tin alloy.

Accuracy is from good to great from any rifled gun I've tried them in at 50 yards. The smooth bore I am referencing is one of my Mossberg 500's. They shoot good from the smooth bore 24" slug barrel, but I am having very poor accuracy from my 20" barrel w/ cylinder choke and good fiber optic open sights. I don't expect this combo to be a tack driver, but I am looking for 4" at 50 yards, or else I might as well stick with 000 buckshot. The bore on that barrel is .731", and it seems there are tight and loose spots. It doesn't shoot good with factory rifled slugs either, so I may just keep it as a buckshot gun, as it patterns tremendously well. I have only tried two factory slugs in it, so not all hope is lost yet.

I too assumed the balls were entering the bore crooked, but it seems that may not be the entire story. In the smooth bore guns I can run the wheel weight ones through by hand with a ramrod, although I need pure lead for the rifled guns. Anyway, I get an uneven bearing band on them. This got me wondering, so I took a handful of good cast round balls, and measured them. Sure enough, they are out of round. Nothing visible, but it is there. I think they would shoot much better if they were bigger, maybe .739" as one poster had luck with. Before that, I am going to try more powder. The slug I recovered yesterday didn't show the slightest bit of upset. The most accurate loads I've found, showed upset of the ball, creating a good bearing band.

[longbow]

Have you tried heat treating?

I hadn't bothered for a ball but found when I made my ribbed Brenneke copies (not quite clones) I found that the ribs were flattening unevenly... one side at nose and the other side at the skirt (kinda diagonal) and that with screwed on wads! These were ACWW with 6 fairly wide ribs about equal with with grooves so substantial bearing area. I recovered several that showed this apparent cocking of the slug as it entered the bore. I never did figure out how it would even happen as the slugs were longer than diameter and with tail wad screwed on.

Oven heat treating fixed that issue but then the slugs were so brittle they often shattered on impact with the berm. I doubt that would be an issue with a ball.

As an observation, Brenneke Classic slugs are very hard alloy. I figured they hardened them for enhanced penetration but maybe they harden them so they don't deform in the bore... or maybe a bit of both?

I'll check my balls for round.... now that just sounds rude! I have mic'd them in the past and they cast at 0.736" and as far as I remember quite spherical. In fact all my Lyman round ball moulds cast well and at or above size using WW... and dimensionally better than Lyman bullet moulds in my experience ~ at least with regards to my newer Lyman moulds.

I'll drive a few through the bore too to see if I get an uneven band doing that. Can't say I have noticed it but then I wasn't looking for it either. I haven't shot any 0.735" RB's in several years now. I went more with the balls in shotcups.

Longbow

[littlejack]

So, are you fellas shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 3/4" chambers? Or, are you shooting 2 3/4" shells in 3" chambers?
I am shooting the latter. I am wondering if the wad can , or does get tilted leaving the hull, and gets started in the forcing cone off center is where things start going south. There is so many different variables to take into concideration, and the tolerances are rather sloppy compared to a rifle. With a rifle and cartidge, you can size the case to fit just about perfectly in the chamber. Then you can set the bullet to, or a few thousanths from the lands. Also, there is the leade or freebore to hold the bullet straight before it engages the rifling.
I do believe there is certainly a "best" load that suits a particular shotgun and barrel, whether it is a rifled or smooth bore. But I don't believe they will ever get close to a rifles precision. I think when I look at a 2.5" group of balls or slugs, I subconsciously compare that to a 1" or 1.5" group my rifle will shoot, a d start to get dissapointed.
The balls I cast, are out of round, but I really don't think that is the biggest issue with the accuracy though. There is no way a person is going to get a ball in a cup (soft cup) to leave the hull when fired, make the jump to and through the forcing cone, and hit the rifling or bore exactly the same. When you throw in that the wads are not all the same, and the petals have variations in thickness. How much accuracy should we really expect? Not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic.
Regards

[megasupermagnum]

I've tried both 2 3/4" and 3", and can't tell the difference at all. I would have to think it has some effect, and I use 3" exclusively with my slug loads in rifled guns, but prefer 2 3/4" for the smooth bore guns. 2 3/4" is just easier/faster to load in a pump or semi auto, and gives you some room if there is an ejection problem.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Of topic, need to know.
What type of stock, or riser do you fellas use to bring your cheek/eye to scope height? I have a leather lace up riser, but it doesnt really apeal to me. I would like to get a basic birch Monte Carlo stock, but I don't know if they even make them with cheap wood.

I use a Beartooth on my Heym .375. The "riser" is just a piece of wood I carved into shape with a slot roughly matching the comb to secure it from wobbling on the stock.

https://i.imgur.com/aSPFTB5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Clba0oJ.jpg?1

[longbow]

All my shooting has been with 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chambers. I agree that this is a disadvantage for the reasons you mention.

Add to that a 0.730" diameter "bullet" being spun faster than is needs (for rifled gun) and picture any imbalances that can be quite far from the centerline then I think you have hit the nail on the head... you cannot expect rifle like accuracy from pretty much any shotgun with standard chamber and forcing cone.

Greg Sappington (ala 12bore) used to post here fairly often and on Shotgunworld. He was an avid 12 ga. shooter and hunter who tried about everything to get to the most accurate shooting he could. In the end that was a bolt action gun with custom barrel with chamber reamed by custom reamer to produce a more rifle like chamber. Than and custom sabot slugs got him to where he wanted to be.

My expectations are more than a little bit lower... especially for smoothbore. If I could get dependable/repeatable 6" group sat 100 yards from smoothbore I'd be happy. If I could get 4" or better groups at 100 yards from rifled gun I'd be happy.

I read lots of reports of stellar accuracy from both smoothbore and rifled guns but I see few targets. The Lyman sabot slug is one i have read reports of incredible accuracy at 100 yards from smoothbores yet I haven't seen repeat results or any confirmations by others. Not disbelieving that a tiny group was shot, just not believing it is repeatable on demand.

There are a lot of variable in shotgun slug reloading and wads are one. Greg asked me to make him a mould for testing using CSD wads. In the end I made two similar but slightly different. The slugs performed for him in terminal ballistics and gave him what he wanted but accuracy was not good enough. He commented on the inconsistencies of CSD wad wall thickness and now thta I have some I can see what he means! When compared to reloading for rifle or handgun you would toss anything with as much variation as those have. Even standard Winchester and other shotcups have variations in petal thickness that are beyond what you would accept for out of round boolits for a rifle or handgun.

For smoothbore some of these variations aren't nearly as critical as for rifle but still... if you could eliminate them you would if loading for metallic cartridge.

If a chamber was reamed like for a rifle and a brass hull used and slug seated as for a rifle then you would effectively have a .73" rifle. If all this was done on a solid single shot or bolt gun you should have a potentially accurate .73 cal. rifle.

My thought is that if full bore slugs are used for rifled guns then the wad petal thickness issue is eliminated. There is still the gas seal and wad column to affect the slug so it better be solid! Then there is the platform ~ pump guns are sloppy, no question. Even with sights or scope mounted off the barrel everything can flex during recoil so I do not believe a guy can expect tack driving accuracy from the best barrel, slug and cartridge fit if the barrel can flop around by a few thou in the receiver.

I just shimmed my Mossberg Slugster barrel and it took an almost 1/2 wrap of 0.005" brass shim stock to snug up the barrel into the receiver and this is still a slip fit, snug but slip fit. There is no comparison of slip fit to a barrel threaded to the receiver.

Since I have an obsession with H&H Paradox guns maybe I'll save a few words (for a change) by saying that H&H used to publish targets showing about 5" 100 yard groups from a side by Paradox gun so at best that is about 2 1/2" groups from each barrel at 100 yards.

Currently H&H shows one used Paradox gun for BP for $36,000.00 and one for $97,500.00... used!! There is a new one with no price listed ~ if you have to ask...

https://www.hollandandholland.com/guns/

If H&H is not capable of making a Paradox gun (not fully rifled but apparently one of the best of the type) that shoots like a rifle then what chance have we got using pump guns? A fully rifled single shot or bolt gun should turn in better groups than pump guns for sure if fed good ammunition anyway but those other variable are still there.

I really have to get me a rifled gun or rifled barrel and so some serious testing. Not that I am likely to get any better results than Blood Trail or Hogtamer and several others but I'd like to test a few things.

The one big issue I have with modern rifled shotgun barrel sis that they have too fast a twist. Detrimental or not? I can't say for sure but the twist is set up for sabot slugs not round balls or short fat slugs that really don't want or more importantly do not need fast twist. Around 1:110" should be correct possibly depending on velocity.

I contacted H&H to ask what twist they use in their Paradox guns and they couldn't tell me anything more than they use the same tooling a original. To my knowledge fully rifled bore guns used typical round ball twists which were very slow in larger gauges.

Okay so I don't save any words in the end!

If ever I win a lottery I will be heading to H&H with a wad of money in my hand to buy a side by Paradox gun! That is a given!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

What would be really cool is a paradox choke tube. If I could maintain the shot patterns I get from a cylinder bore, yet improve my slug accuracy, I would pay through the nose for such a device. I wonder if one of the rebore guys like Bobby Hoyt could do it?

On the paradox guns, did the rifling groove tighten as well, or were the lands the only choke?

[longbow]

To be honest, I don't know. Originally I had assumed the rifling was cut so that lands and grooves were even depth but I think all it is is rifling cut into a choke so grooves parallel with bore and lands being the choked portion. Oddly it seems difficult to find accurate and consistent info. Or at least I haven't found much.

I am currently reading the book about Fosbery:

https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Colonel-Fosbery-Holland-Rifled/dp/1450704549

Just getting to the development of the Paradox gun now.

I would have figured that these details woul dbe known but when H&H themselves (London gun room manager) can't tell me the rifling pitch after checking with the gunsmiths, well...?

I had also assumed that rifling would be slow twist since the slugs were short and heavy and I believe suited to round ball shooting as well. And since bore guns tended to have slow twists... again as far as I have found, then I would have assumed the Paradox would be slow twist. However, Ross Seyfried commented on his Paradox gun having a 1:36" or 1:38" twist or close anyway. That caught me by surprise and I am not sure he actually checked it which with a 3" rifled choke could be tricky.

As for a double, I have considered getting a block of steel milled to suit side by barrels and a slip on fit then silver solder and have this "binocular" tube reamed and threaded for screw in chokes that are slightly eccentric so they can be shimmed at a certain location/rotation to regulate the gun. That of course is a big issue with a double barrel gun. They are difficult and expensive to regulate.

Cap'n Morgan CNC milled a suppressor attachment for his over/under so the same could be done for a side by. it would just cost a buck or two.

For now I'll stick with single barrel guns and hopefully get my slow twist rifled choke tube finished one day. Fighting another hurdle now!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Cap'n Morgan
Thanks for the photos. That looks very functional. What i'm planning will come out about the same, with different items.

[littlejack]

I was reading about the October Country muzzle loaders. The 8 bore has a twist rate of 1 in 144. The 20 bore up to the 10 bore have twist rates of 1 in 104. There must be a very good reason the slow twist and ball combination have been used ever since rifling has come into existence. "Thats all the twist that was needed" I believe that the faster twist rates in the shotguns, came into being because rifled bores in the shotguns were not originally designed for round balls. The bores were being designed for slugs, and slugs are longer than their diameter. So, we're trying to use a projectile ( ball ) that never was intended to be fired in a fast twist bore. Not saying it can't be done, just saying the ball flies perfectly straight with the twist rate that was designed for it.
I had a fella tell me years ago, that you can't over stabilize a bullet. If you take the .223 cartridge for example. The rifles manufactured have twist rates from 1 in 7 up to 1 in 12. The faster twist doesn't seem to have any detremental effect, except for the fact that some bullet types come apart like a three dollar watch, if either shot to fast or spun to fast. We do know, the faster twist, (think shotgun twist) does stabilize the longer bullets. If not spun fast enough, the accuracy goes south in a hurry.
I read some on the Savage bolt slug guns. With the slug guns and sabot slugs being designed for each other, they are shooting like rifles. But, if you was to shoot some ball loads in them, I'm sure they could not compete with the sabot loads.
In a standard shotgun barrel, ( single shot, pump) the ball starts down the bore in a totally different environment than was desiged for it.
There's the problem to start with.
The muzzle loader and the ball were designed for each other.
Regards

[Petander]

I have limited myself to smoothbores. I like to be able to shoot shotshells as well. Never even tried a rifled choke.

We don't have "shotgun only" hunting limitations here,very few people have rifled barrels.

I might want a full bore 12 gauge ball though. This is getting out of hands... my 20 gauge double ball load is in the cup because of ball size,easy to load,too. But I like experimenting with full bore slugs/balls to eliminate the wad in between... My Hi Tek coating is very good,too.

[centershot]

These are cast from a JT single ball brass mold, supposed to be .735", but run .734". I'm using COWW + 2% tin alloy.

Accuracy is from good to great from any rifled gun I've tried them in at 50 yards. The smooth bore I am referencing is one of my Mossberg 500's. They shoot good from the smooth bore 24" slug barrel, but I am having very poor accuracy from my 20" barrel w/ cylinder choke and good fiber optic open sights. I don't expect this combo to be a tack driver, but I am looking for 4" at 50 yards, or else I might as well stick with 000 buckshot. The bore on that barrel is .731", and it seems there are tight and loose spots. It doesn't shoot good with factory rifled slugs either, so I may just keep it as a buckshot gun, as it patterns tremendously well. I have only tried two factory slugs in it, so not all hope is lost yet.

I too assumed the balls were entering the bore crooked, but it seems that may not be the entire story. In the smooth bore guns I can run the wheel weight ones through by hand with a ramrod, although I need pure lead for the rifled guns. Anyway, I get an uneven bearing band on them. This got me wondering, so I took a handful of good cast round balls, and measured them. Sure enough, they are out of round. Nothing visible, but it is there. I think they would shoot much better if they were bigger, maybe .739" as one poster had luck with. Before that, I am going to try more powder. The slug I recovered yesterday didn't show the slightest bit of upset. The most accurate loads I've found, showed upset of the ball, creating a good bearing band.

MSM,

This problem might be attenuated by sending that barrel out to Hans Vang for a work-over. Lengthening the forcing cone and/or back-boring might cure that problem.

[centershot]

I was reading about the October Country muzzle loaders. The 8 bore has a twist rate of 1 in 144. The 20 bore up to the 10 bore have twist rates of 1 in 104. There must be a very good reason the slow twist and ball combination have been used ever since rifling has come into existence. "Thats all the twist that was needed" I believe that the faster twist rates in the shotguns, came into being because rifled bores in the shotguns were not originally designed for round balls. The bores were being designed for slugs, and slugs are longer than their diameter. So, we're trying to use a projectile ( ball ) that never was intended to be fired in a fast twist bore. Not saying it can't be done, just saying the ball flies perfectly straight with the twist rate that was designed for it.
I had a fella tell me years ago, that you can't over stabilize a bullet. If you take the .223 cartridge for example. The rifles manufactured have twist rates from 1 in 7 up to 1 in 12. The faster twist doesn't seem to have any detremental effect, except for the fact that some bullet types come apart like a three dollar watch, if either shot to fast or spun to fast. We do know, the faster twist, (think shotgun twist) does stabilize the longer bullets. If not spun fast enough, the accuracy goes south in a hurry.
I read some on the Savage bolt slug guns. With the slug guns and sabot slugs being designed for each other, they are shooting like rifles. But, if you was to shoot some ball loads in them, I'm sure they could not compete with the sabot loads.
In a standard shotgun barrel, ( single shot, pump) the ball starts down the bore in a totally different environment than was desiged for it.
There's the problem to start with.
The muzzle loader and the ball were designed for each other.
Regards

littlejack,

This stabilization you speak of is RPM dependent. Consider my .223 caliber Ruger American with a 1:8 twist: By using a 60 gr. HP (which effectively SHORTENS the bullet) and dropping velocity to 2850 fps, I have a tack-driving little varmint gun. That same bullet at 3000 fps won't group inside 2.5"! Too much RPM! As handloaders we can control that. Our RB's are very short for their mass, so we must find the sweet spot in the RPM arena that gives us the best possible accuracy. My .54 Renegade (1:48 twist) shoots great with RB and 70 gr of 2F, but no more than that! It would be nice to have a 1:100 twist in our slug guns but when we learn to make RPM our friend, it's all good!

Longbow,

Yes, I have gone through the archives seeking onfo on the .690 RB trials. I think it was Bikerbeans that posted a comment about using a .690 RB with a Federal 12S3 wad over 22 grains of Unique (IIRC, Forgive me BB if that wasn't ypu!) and was having success with that load, so that's my next step.

[Rally]

Has anyone tried using Gorilla glue or expanding foams to make seats in wads for round balls? Seems like if you could control the amount applied in the wad, with coated round balls, it should work. A 2x4 with correct diameter holes drilled in it would allow several to be "drying" at the same time without over expansion of the wad.

[BAGTIC]

What would happen if the ball and the wad did not separate?

[longbow]

If it was a "solid" wad like an unslit CSD wad with ball seated at the mouth on card wads or shotcup trimmed to suit the ball it should act like a Brenneke or other attached wad slug.

I plan on trying that using 0.662" RB's which are a nice press fit into CSD wads.

If you are asking about gluing RB's into regular slit wads then I suspect that accuracy would be poor if they didn't separate. Petals would likely bend and partially open and cushion legs are generally not very sturdy so tend to distort. My experience anyway.

Longbow

[Rally]

If the rb’s are lubed/coated they shouldn’t glue together, rather just form a tight cushioned seat. You could also make sure by rolling them on a hard surface before loading to ensure they weren’t glued together. Just a thought and the foams come in several densities.

[longbow]

I'd say the easiest is just a donut wad inside a shotcup. As long as the ball is centered centered in the bore and "carrier" releases cleanly that is all a guy can ask for.

Now... donut wads... They used to be readily available though I am not sure what else they would be used for but BPI and Precision Reloading used to stock them. Not sure if they still do. If you have to make them then that is a different ball game. I guess that's why this discussion is going on. Lots of different ideas and lots with merit.