Can Damascus Barrels be fired with cast?

[PatMarlin]

Can Damascus Barrels be fired with low pressure cast loads, say like a damascus double shotgun?

I don't know anything about damascus steel and why you can't shoot them.

[shotman]

damascus is made by wraping a strip of metal around a solid rod and hammered together like a paper towel tube. the old black powder didnt have the chamber pressure that the new smokless has. What is called low brass / lite loads is not low pressure. It would be best not to shoot ---but if you reload you can load down some loads--just make sure to check barrel after each shot for a lodged wad. They will not buldge they will blow up rick

[Kuato]

Whatever you do, DO NOT load with smokeless!!!! Have the gun checked out by a GS that has ALOT of experience with old doubles... If you do decide to load for it. use Black Powder.

[missionary5155]

The above is all CORRECT ! What you are looking for in the barrel is pits. Pits that are not superficial.. but go deep. Do to the 2 metals being twisted , hammerred, wrapped, smalll viens of metal were formed and rust , black powder corrossion follows the weakest point if not properly cleaned. So that pit grows eating into the barrel wall. Every firing deposits (under pressure) more corrosive residue that attracts moisture and the process just keeps eating away the metal. A good bore scope and light will reveal the presence of deeper pits.

[oldhickory]

Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't shoot it at all unless the bores are SHINEY and BRIGHT! Also, any of the Belgian proofed damascus barrels are "iffy" even with black powder. Just for myself, I wouldn't shoot damascus at all unless it's English made and proofed, and bright and shiney.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Pat,

A couple of years ago I found a website, In Yankeeland somewhere. For a company that resoildered and restored Damascus Barrels and did restoration on the rest of the old Shotguns. When I got my Original 1887 in it had the regular steel barrel and I never went back to the site. But it is out there.

Sam :-D

[Cactus Farmer]

Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't shoot it at all unless the bores are SHINEY and BRIGHT! Also, any of the Belgian proofed damascus barrels are "iffy" even with black powder. Just for myself, I wouldn't shoot damascus at all unless it's English made and proofed, and bright and shiney.

What hickory said + there are smokeless powders that make BP pressures. I'm at work and don't remember(CRS) the specifics but I have two old English doubles (W.J. Jeffries) and shoot 'em. I would be leary of belgian doubles......test fire with a rope and an old tire.:brokenima

[PatMarlin]

Well with more reading it seems the only real way to be safe is to one-

Check for pitting with a borescope
Check the headspace, and chamber lenght (especially looking for a change in length mod)
Measure the thickness of the steel
Have the barrels magnufluxed

Without doing the above, even a gunsmith can't truly reccomend the gun to be safe.

[PatMarlin]

Then of course use low pressure black powder loads of which there is no data I have been able to find as yet.

Fun stuff even to look though.. :drinks:

[HABCAN]

1889 Remington SxS damascus 12ga. in very nice shape, no pitting.
Brass UMC 12ga. shells.
Loaded a 'nice amount' of F BP, felt wads, 1-1/8oz. #7-1/2 shot, card wad crimped.
Went BANG! Killed bird.
Lucky.
Never again.

[missionary5155]

My old Lyman reprint Stated a standard load was 3- 1/2 DRAMS of 2f. If my memory serves a dram was near 20 grains by weight. So you have 70 grains by weight 2F... me I would go back to a 50 GR 2f with 1 ounce of shot in a 12 gauge... that should be mild... and work up in 5 grain increments in a good bore.

[longbow]

Not sure about BP cartridge loads but the Lyman Black Powder handbook lists pressures for muzzleloader shotgun loads.

As in rifles a cartridge load may be slightly more efficient and build a little more pressure but they should be pretty close.

I would figure that a competent gunsmith that knows damascus should be able to inspect and advise as to whether the gun is safe to shoot or not.

I am certainly in agreement with the above comments about smokeless ~ don't do it! BP and most likely BP substitutes should be okay... if a gunsmith says so.

Here is a link that may be of interest:

http://www.hunter-ed.com/wa/course/8-5_damascus_barrels.htm

and

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/index.html

and

http://heuse.spahistoire.info/chinhotcanondamas.html

Longbow

[oldhickory]

I'll add that a lot of the mid or lower grade English shotguns used Belgian made barrels, just because the gun is stamped, London, Birmingham, etc. don't assume it has good English barrels, you need to look at the proofs.

[KCSO]

Twist barrels are an art form and very few people are conversant with them now days. A GOOD twist barrel can be better and hold more pressure than a cheap cast steel barrel. The original idea with twist was to hammer out the slag and to make a barrel both strong and ductile. The problem is that you have two different metals welded together and they are subject to damage from mooisture and any left over soldering acids. A clean smooth bore can be weak because the barrel is rusted under the ribs. I took my course in twist barrels from V M Starr and we sat and rang barrels for a whole afternoon. I personallly shoot twist but I shooot with B/P ONLY and not with any heavy loads. IMHO if you can't kill it with 75-80 grains of FFG or Fg you need a modenr gun.

[Trapshooter]

If you are set on shooting the gun, another option is to get sub-gage tubes fit for it. Briley is a good source. I believe they even offer tubes that are rated for steel shot.
They aren't cheap, but if you want to fire the gun more than once .....


Trapshooter

[Old Ironsights]

I have - and shoot - a 100+ y/o 16ga Damascus Belgian Guild Gun... with .410 chamber inserts. You DON'T have to go with full Brileys. Chamber inserts 2 guages or more smaller will work just fine. Gauge Mate brand runs about $50/pr.

I won't do more than that until/unless I get the tubes relined down to 20ga and have it put back on-face.

That said - it's a FUN .410 ;)

[dgslyr]

Have it x-rayed by someone that x-rays welding.A friend who is a retired gunsmith had several old damascus barreled guns x-rayed 30 or so years ago to so to people that brought the old guns in to have firing pins a such fixed so they could keep on shooting them.When you x-ray the barrels on one of these it looks like hundreds of pinholes in the barrel,like pin holes in welds.All the major firearm makers said 35 years ago that damascus barreled guns weren't safe with any ammunition.Seen several that blew.Used to know of a fellow that lost 2 fingers and put pieces in his sons face.Please don't shoot next to anyone that you like or is likely to sue.

[Old Ironsights]

That's NOT a problem with the chamber reducers.

#1: The Chamber reducers (guage mate/little skeeters) can take almost ANY reasonable/factory pressure when installed in a bore.

#2: When using chamber reducers, the bore is so oversized that there is NO pressure issues once the subguage round has fired.

#3: Unless the action is SERIOUSLY off face, a subgauge round (2 to 3 gauges) will NOT have enough pressure to even pop open the action.

The Guagemates are a realy cool way of uing a gun that would otherwise be relegated to wallhanger status.

[shotman]

will go with ironsight that would be the best if you want to shoot it rick

[PatMarlin]

Have it x-rayed by someone that x-rays welding.A friend who is a retired gunsmith had several old damascus barreled guns x-rayed 30 or so years ago to so to people that brought the old guns in to have firing pins a such fixed so they could keep on shooting them.When you x-ray the barrels on one of these it looks like hundreds of pinholes in the barrel,like pin holes in welds.All the major firearm makers said 35 years ago that damascus barreled guns weren't safe with any ammunition.Seen several that blew.Used to know of a fellow that lost 2 fingers and put pieces in his sons face.Please don't shoot next to anyone that you like or is likely to sue.


That's what magnufluxing does.

I decided to pass on the whole deal. Just not worth it. I love shooting antiques, but I think I'll stick with good cartridge rifles... :brokenima

[dgslyr]

[QUOTE=Old Ironsights;409342]That's NOT a problem with the chamber reducers.

#1: The Chamber reducers (guage mate/little skeeters) can take almost ANY reasonable/factory pressure when installed in a bore.

The guy I knew of who lost his fingers lost them on his left hand where he was holding the forend,not at the chamber.All but one of the ones that I have seen that came apart came apart down the tube some place.Only the one at the chamber.Shoot them if you must,but think long and hard about anyone standing next to you while you do it.

[Old Ironsights]

Um... true - if you are using a full pressure load that is actually sealed to the bore with a wad.

Once a load leaves a chamber reducer the shot & wad/cup is running freebore. There is almost no pressure at all down the length of the tube.

[craigf]

If you can, get hold of a series of articles written in "The Double Gun Journal" (2006/2007) about firing modern loads in Damascus barrelled shotguns. Tests subjected the rather ratty looking guns to modern smokeless proof rounds. Most if not all escaped relatively unscathed by the abuse.