R700 5R .223 cratered/blown primers with factory ammo

[Peregrine]

Gentlemen,

I'm having some serious issues with my 5R in .223 with factory ammo. All this rifles has seen is factory ammo (my first rifle incidentally), approximately 600 rounds worth.

To get right to the point here, I shoot this rifle infrequently so this issue is about 3 years and ~200 rounds in the making.

Right off the hop i'd like to admit fault. When I started to notice funniness with the primers I knew something was up but didn't take action and just let things play out while I observed. The major reason being the load that started the trouble were Sako Gamehead 55gr. soft points and the accuracy they were giving me was phenomenal. At 100 yards rounds were going into the same hole and I was consistently shooting .25 MOA groups. This was far in excess of any accuracy I had previously been able to achieve, and especially with buddies around to impress the temptation to continue to use that load made me complacent. This was before I had started to reload at all, one would hope i'd know better now. Not proud of this but no ego, just the facts.


Before I had shot the Sako I had shot about 400 rounds of assorted factory ammo over a few years, mainly cheap stuff because I was just getting into shooting (winchester white box mainly, some American Eagle), but moving into more premium ammo like Hornady and Nosler as I progressed. Looking back through all my brass from that period it all looks fine, I was having intermitent problems with light primer strikes with some of it right from the beginning but it was sporadic and they all went bang the second time through.

The issues started with the Sako (rounds not presented in order shot, they were all picked up later);


https://i.imgur.com/sN4IoXO.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/ipgklVX.jpg




The rounds all functioned and fired fine. Extraction was nice and smooth, other than the primers nothing out of the ordinary on the brass and while in retrospect some of those primers are clearly pierced I there was no gas blow by felt or seen.


In between shooting some of the Sako, I shot some Hornady V-MAX 55gr. The primers on those appeared fine, although upon closer examination now a couple of them at least were slightly cratered (placed bottom left);


https://i.imgur.com/GdEyYwl.jpg



The real concern started when I brought this rifle out again (after a year or so) to ring some steel with some generic .223 ammo. I got a couple rounds off, and initially after examining my first three cases or so quickly the primers looked OK. And indeed, a few brass out of this batch do look OK. I then proceeded to shoot most of the rest of two boxes pretty rapidly when I noticed smoke leaking from around the bolt after a shot. Upon extracting it I noticed the primer was pierced, and examining the brass that was strewn about I noticed that a few other primers (4!) were pierced and most of the rest of them were cratered/bulging. I only had three rounds left in the box at that point, so I didn't shoot those.


https://i.imgur.com/BDyLx7Z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oDJqFq4.jpg




I did however shoot some other Hornady Varmint Express (40gr.) I had lying around, and while not pictured those primers looked perfectly fine.
Also included for your consideration is some Hornady Superperformance I shot before and during the above events (i'm not sure which box is which, both pictured), and some Winchester Whitebox from way back.


https://i.imgur.com/tD196uZ.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/48XL3Io.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/j9PH2ae.jpg






My questions are what likely originally happened/could have happened to start off the issues, what happened when I continued to shoot the rifle, and what needs to be done now to correct the problem.
Here are a couple pics of the bolthead;


https://i.imgur.com/ysVui94.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kUbqUCS.jpg





What are everyone's thoughts on this? Other than the fact that i'm a moron, I know that (although you can still tell me that if you want).

[CastingFool]

Bad firing pin?

[Peregrine]

The boltface was a bit dirty in the first set of pictures, here is it after a quick swab with some Hoppe's;

https://i.imgur.com/fI3hvqd.jpg


And just a (old) picture of the rifle in question;

https://i.imgur.com/yPf6uzq.jpg

Getting into shooting I thought long range competition would be what i'd want to get into. Instead all I do now is cast for my milsuprs and shoot them mainly off hand. Actually haven't had this rifle out in quite a while, and not just because I need to get to the bottom of what's going on.

[McFred]

The excessive pressure signs could be bad fouling or desperate need of cleaning the bore, an oversized firing pin hole or a barrel with out-of-spec chamber or bore diameter on the small side.

A thorough cleaning would alleviate the potential fouled-bore issue.

Slugging the bore would reveal whether or not the barrel itself is smaller diameter than SAAMI spec.

A chronograph of various factory rounds would reveal if the pressure was indeed very high and eliminate the potential oversized firing pin hole.

A bushed firing pin hole to reduce the potential for blanking the primers would help the cratering but not the potential over pressure itself.

Light primer strikes could be from a number of potential issues: weak firing pin spring, short firing pin protrusion, improper cartridge headspace, improper chamber headspace just to mention a couple.

Handloading with likely "fix" any pressure issues as you would be in control of the chamber pressure and cartridge dimensions.

A call to Remington might have them take a look at it. They might not return it to you in a manner that you like (install the new lawyer trigger). Might even just replace the whole thing outright and the accuracy dice will be rolled again.

You've got a few options to pursue.

[NSB]

Too much info here. Short response: get a new firing pin.

[Peregrine]

Bad firing pin?


Too much info here. Short response: get a new firing pin.

Too much info is a bad thing? I've got time.

What exactly are the potential issues I could be having with the firing pin that could lead to these issues? Like I mentioned, this rifle did have intermittent issues with light strikes with some ammo.

I took the bolt apart, here are some pictures of the firing pin. The tip has it's factory chamfer, to my mind the tip doesn't seem to be damaged. However it does have some galling on the firing pin about about .080 forward of the flat. It's shiny all the way around and there's some galling where it's been contacting something.
I'm not sure where to firing pin is designed to contact to stop on the 700, anyone have any insight?

https://imgur.com/n9EXNL0.jpg


https://imgur.com/sKdfCWg.jpg


https://imgur.com/sKdfCWg.jpg


I did find one circular piece of brass lodged somewhere in there while I was cleaning.

[Peregrine]

The excessive pressure signs could be bad fouling or desperate need of cleaning the bore, an oversized firing pin hole or a barrel with out-of-spec chamber or bore diameter on the small side.

A thorough cleaning would alleviate the potential fouled-bore issue.

Slugging the bore would reveal whether or not the barrel itself is smaller diameter than SAAMI spec.

A chronograph of various factory rounds would reveal if the pressure was indeed very high and eliminate the potential oversized firing pin hole.

A bushed firing pin hole to reduce the potential for blanking the primers would help the cratering but not the potential over pressure itself.

Light primer strikes could be from a number of potential issues: weak firing pin spring, short firing pin protrusion, improper cartridge headspace, improper chamber headspace just to mention a couple.

Handloading with likely "fix" any pressure issues as you would be in control of the chamber pressure and cartridge dimensions.

A call to Remington might have them take a look at it. They might not return it to you in a manner that you like (install the new lawyer trigger). Might even just replace the whole thing outright and the accuracy dice will be rolled again.

You've got a few options to pursue.

Thanks for the detailed response McFred.
Can lack of cleaning really be causing the problems? I'm open to all possibilities and that's an easy one to rule out. I haven't actually cleaned this barrel out since I started shooting the rifle, I lacked a high quality rod that would fit when I first got the rifle and I didn't want to do more harm than good superstitiously cleaning it. 600 rounds later I could be due, but I was waiting for accuracy to drop off before I messed with it. It doesn't appear to be full of copper from looking at it, actually it looks pretty clean in general.

[BK7saum]

Start with a new firing pin spring and possibly a new firing pin. I'm not seeing excess pressure with some of the pierced primer loads, more of a poor/sloppy finding pin fit in the bolt face. That is a known cause of cratered primers in normal pressure loads. If the firing pin spring is weak, the combination could cause pierced primers with normal pressure loads.

So I'd start with a new spring and see if that fixes the problem.

[TNsailorman]

Have you called Remington yet? That would be my first step. If they want you to send the rifle back(which is probably what they will do) send a couple of the cases with blown primers along with it. my advice anyway, james

[charlie b]

I'd also clean it. Then look and see if there is any copper build up. I use a small magnifier and good light at the muzzle (not a light from the breech). Get a one piece rod (I don't spend a fortune on them), a bore guide (the kind that fits in the receiver) and a muzzle guide (it centers the rod in the bore guide). I do not like stainless steel cleaning rods.

But, I agree with above that the loads do not look over pressure to me and the firing pin/spring may be to blame.

FWIW, my Savage in .223 always craters the primers. Never pierced one. Never got a light strike.

[Texas by God]

The piece of brass that you got out might have caused the light strikes. It looks like only the PPU rounds pierced and only five of them so it may be a bad lot of ammo. It needs to be figured out because it's a SHOOTER obviously.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[tomme boy]

Firing pin spring is weak or the hole is too large.

[Peregrine]

The piece of brass that you got out might have caused the light strikes. It looks like only the PPU rounds pierced and only five of them so it may be a bad lot of ammo. It needs to be figured out because it's a SHOOTER obviously.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Light strikes had been occurring since I first started shooting the rifle, long before any of this started. It won't reliably ignite American Eagle particularly, I had bought a bunch just for setting off tannerite and maybe 1/3 would fail to go off the first time.

If you look closely, 6 of the Sako had the primer punched through and you can see the resulting disk still inside the primer cup. The PPU did blow that disk out. I shot the same PPU through a semi auto with nothing out of the ordinary occurring.
I think we can all agree the primers are VERY cratered though in the case of both the PPU and the Sako, not just cratered but actually protruding out into the firing pin channel.



I'd also clean it. Then look and see if there is any copper build up. I use a small magnifier and good light at the muzzle (not a light from the breech). Get a one piece rod (I don't spend a fortune on them), a bore guide (the kind that fits in the receiver) and a muzzle guide (it centers the rod in the bore guide). I do not like stainless steel cleaning rods.

I'll probably get a tipton carbon fiber rod, I have one that does 27-45cal and I rather like it. The bore guides i'm iffy on. I have one for larger caliber I don't use anymore because the rubber funnel it ends up catching in the receivers on my milsurps on either the bolt catch or the ejector (mausers and k31), and then becomes a massive pain in the rear to remove.

I know benchrest shooters are all about them, but the only ones I can get here are the bore tech and they're $60 plus tax, which as much as the nice tipton rods. So i'm conflicted.

I'll clean the bore since it's an easy thing to rule out, but it really does look quite pristine.

[McFred]

Can lack of cleaning really be causing the problems?

If the bore is exceptionally rough, as production barrels can be, it could have collected enough fouling to impede the passage of subsequent projectiles. This additional friction may raise chamber pressures resulting in primer cratering and blanking. It's usually easy to see with a bore scope or bore camera through an otherwise clean bore.

I agree with Texas By God that any debris in the bolt body (bits of brass) may have impeded the pin's movement and may have resulted in light primer strikes. Solvent, a brush or compressed air to clean the bolt out would go a ways to ruling that out. Otherwise go/no-go gauges will also determine if the chamber is not within spec which could lead to misfires as well as a weak firing pin spring, aaaaand the possibility of the firing pin protrusion from the bolt face (which should be about .060" or so).

[samari46]

Pierced primers can and will actually cut the tip of your firing pin just like and oxy acetlene torch will. I have had it happen to me and seen a rem 700 bolt chock full of the pieces of the punctured primers. Took the guys bolt apart and shook it and all the little pieces came out. Tip of the pin was severely gas cut. Hole where the pin went through the bolt was badly damaged from the pieces of brass. There is very little clearance between the firing pin and the hole in the bolt. Those loads with the Sako? brass look to be on the hot side flattened and cratered. I'd say at the minimum you would need a new firing pin. As an aside check the diameter of those sako bullets and use a copper solvent like butch's bore shine. Stuff smells but will remove powder and copper fouling. And if you send the rifle back to rem, don't be suprised if they swap out the old trigger for a new lawyer proof one. Frank

[M-Tecs]

Light strikes could be a sign of long headspace. Same for the primer appearance. The primer backs out with the case forward than get reseated under pressure.

[charlie b]

I use this bore guide.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/343757/pro-shot-the-stopper-adjustable-bore-guide-22-centerfire-to-30-caliber-remington-ruger-savage-rifles-aluminum-with-delrin-tip

And this on the rod (centers the rod at the back of the bore guide)

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/667705/pro-shot-brass-muzzle-guard-27-caliber-and-up-rod

Works well. I have also used the cheap MTM one. Both fit my Savage actions nicely.

[robg]

Measure the protusion of the the firing pin through the bolt .give everything a good clean then try it again it might be OK .a little crud in the wrong place can cause havoc.

[gnostic]

I'm seeing the cratered and pierced primer. But don't see a flattened radius on the primers or extractor imprint on the case. Aside from the cratered/blown primer, the pressure doesn't look high. Is the bolt sticky when opened? Try the cheap stuff first, I'd replace the firing pin spring to see if a weak spring is the problem. I'd measure the case head expansion, you should have about .007 increase from new, on a normal fired case.

[HangFireW8]

What is the firing pin extension from the bolt face?

A possibility for the blown primers is the chamber neck is cut a bit short, and/or the factory ammo was not trimmed properly. The case mouth pinching the bullet in place can send pressures sky-high. I would check the case length of the cases with blown and cratered primers, compare to other cases, and post the info here.

[Gtek]

I would not put another round in it until the head space was checked. Then I think a known good chamber reamer and confirm nose fits in muzzle then light chamber spin to check for throat removal. Next would be firing pin protrusion, a little suspect marking at base of firing pin stem, internal forward bolt?

[Peregrine]

Measure the protusion of the the firing pin through the bolt .give everything a good clean then try it again it might be OK .a little crud in the wrong place can cause havoc.

The firing pin protrusion is .054"

I did give the firing pin channel a good clean and found one blown out piece of brass in there I was able to blow out, and I soaked the whole bolt in some solvent overnight and it doesn't appear anything more is in there. But again, the problems with light strikes occurred right from round 1 with this rifle, and generally only happens with ammo that has harder primers.



What is the firing pin extension from the bolt face?

A possibility for the blown primers is the chamber neck is cut a bit short, and/or the factory ammo was not trimmed properly. The case mouth pinching the bullet in place can send pressures sky-high. I would check the case length of the cases with blown and cratered primers, compare to other cases, and post the info here.

Alright, I decided to measure the Sako and the PPU (which were problematic), and the White box and Nosler (which look perfectly fine).


Sako => 1.761, 1.759, 1.758
PPU=> 1.762 (neck not square, extreme measure), 1.756, 1.768
Winchester White Box=> 1.754, 1.759 (neck not square, extreme measure), 1.758
Nosler=> 1.756, 1.758, 1.759

So that's not our smoking gun, but it was interesting to see how much more square the necks on the premium ammo was, even the ones I didn't comment on with the PPU/Winchester were off.



I'm seeing the cratered and pierced primer. But don't see a flattened radius on the primers or extractor imprint on the case. Aside from the cratered/blown primer, the pressure doesn't look high. Is the bolt sticky when opened? Try the cheap stuff first, I'd replace the firing pin spring to see if a weak spring is the problem. I'd measure the case head expansion, you should have about .007 increase from new, on a normal fired case.

No bolt stickiness. I have a couple boxes of unfired Sako up where I shoot, i'll check a couple of those with my Hornady Headspace comparator compared to these fired cases and get back to this thread.


I would not put another round in it until the head space was checked. Then I think a known good chamber reamer and confirm nose fits in muzzle then light chamber spin to check for throat removal. Next would be firing pin protrusion, a little suspect marking at base of firing pin stem, internal forward bolt?

I don't have a reamer, what do you mean by the suspect marking? Do you mean the pictures of the galling on the firing pin I posted up in my third post in the thread? I'm not sure what's up with that.


I couldn't find my preferred Tipton rods locally, so I got the LGS to see if they can special order me one. If the distributor has one in stock it shouldn't take much more than a week or two, i'll give the bore a really good cleaning and then we'll go from there.

[Larry Gibson]

"The firing pin protrusion is .054""

That's within spec but the piercing of the primer indicates the protrusion when firing is too long. The dry fire collar may not be in contact with it's stop surface in the bolt with that protrusion measurement. If it still can go forward under inertia that indicates something else is amiss.

The cratering may be caused by something as simple as a weak firing pin spring or weak firing pin strike. The misfires also indicate either. That may have been caused by the fouling in the firing pin channel. Have you fired it since the cleaning and removal of the "chip"? I see no sign of any "pressure" problem.

[Gtek]

^^^ Referring to what Mr. Gibson better explained in more detail. Just pushing forward with finger pressure vs strike protrusion. Yes the marks at base of pin stem, pin possibly going farther than intended post release. Without another identical weapon to compare/mic parts, I think I would buzz pencil very small identifiers on bolt components and give big green a call, hopefully someone still knows how the 700 works there.

[McFred]

Reading material RE full pressure and excessive headspace blanking primers:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/punctured-primers.3969450/#post-37402552

2¢

[tomme boy]

GET a new firing pin spring. It will go away. Get a wolf brand one. Preferably a extra power one if available. If this does not fix the problem then you will need to have the bolt head bushed. These are the two very common problems with remington 700 bolts. It is not a headspace issue. That shows up in a different way not like this.

[Peregrine]

^^^ Referring to what Mr. Gibson better explained in more detail. Just pushing forward with finger pressure vs strike protrusion.

Pushing forward with finger pressure? I might be missing something, I just pulled back the striker and rotated the bolt to the cut where the striker is allowed to fall when the rifle is in battery, then measured.


"The firing pin protrusion is .054""
The cratering may be caused by something as simple as a weak firing pin spring or weak firing pin strike. The misfires also indicate either. That may have been caused by the fouling in the firing pin channel. Have you fired it since the cleaning and removal of the "chip"? I see no sign of any "pressure" problem.

That's reassuring but still strange. I have not fired it yet, i'll likely wait until I get a new spring in at this point.



GET a new firing pin spring. It will go away. Get a wolf brand one. Preferably a extra power one if available. If this does not fix the problem then you will need to have the bolt head bushed. These are the two very common problems with remington 700 bolts. It is not a headspace issue. That shows up in a different way not like this.

That's an easy enough proposition.
I can see on the Wolff website that there are several strengths of spring available; 24lbs, 28lbs, and 32lbs. Can someone talk me through the logic of the different strengths of spring? It mentions that 24lbs is the factory standard, are the higher strengths simply for harder primer milspec type ammo or is there any other benefit or effect to consider (other than force require to cock naturally)?

In any case I found a sole retailer (Canada) with a single 28lbs short action spring in stock, unless someone has anything pertinent to add i'll probably order that and go from there. I could order direct from Wolff but they have a $25 minimum for international orders and I can't think what else I could use from them.

[HangFireW8]

If firing pin overextension is still an issue, it will get worse with a stronger spring.

The rifle may have had two or three issues. Spring strength. Primer disc inside bolt. Overextension. Don't despair if you don't solve all of them at once with the new spring. A fresh spring won't hurt the rifle.

[Bigslug]

A lot of stuff could be going on there. . .

Once you pierce a primer for whatever reason, your firing pin gets a dose of hot plasma jetted onto it's tip, which stands a good chance of pitting it, leaving a rough surface, which stands a good chance of creating a place for another primer to pierce at, pitting the firing pin further, and so on. Get a magnifying glass and look hard at the tip of your firing pin for this kind of damage.

Then you get into 5.56 NATO vs. .223 Remington issues. 5.56 is loaded hotter to meet various gun functioning requirements and goofy military things such as the distance at which Soviet body armor must be pierced. Guns chambered for 5.56 ammo have a longer throat cut into the rifling to deal with this added pressure. SAAMI spec .223 Remington throats are tighter. The fun begins when you shoot 5.56 or loads cooked up for a longer throat in a tighter spec barrel - which your 5R tube undoubtedly is.

CCI makes both large and small military spec primers which are thicker. They're a nice safety net against this sort of thing. The puckering around your firing pin strikes seems to indicate that the loads are a little toasty for the throat, the primers are a bit thin, or both.

700 light strikes: YMMV, but I just got done dealing with one that had some form of factory goo between the firing pin and cocking piece that was gumming up the works. The gun was audibly "not right" when dry firing. Rather than dismantle the whole striker assembly, it got a generous hosing with brake cleaner followed by a dousing of Break Free. All is now right with the world.

[DCM]

Light strikes could be a sign of long headspace. Same for the primer appearance. The primer backs out with the case forward than get reseated under pressure.

My vote is This.

[tomme boy]

CCI SR primers are also thinner than everyone else's. So that can be a issue. They were not meant to be used in 223 Remington according to some older data. They were made for the Hornet and others in its class. Here is a chart that shows the thickness of some primers and I have run into the same thing he has. But the problem the OP has is SOMETHING else.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

[samari46]

Don't know if Remington still makes them but they had a 7 1/2 primer with a copper colored shell that was made spefically for warm loads. used many thousands for a few 222 Remington chambered rifles. This was way before the 22 ppc and 6mm ppc benchrest cartridges came out. Still remember the load, 19.0 grains IMR 4198, Rem case,Rem 7 1/2 primer and a rem 52 grain match bullet. Frank

[Lloyd Smale]

its tough to gauge a rifle problem on primer appearance especially when you start running imported ammo. Ive seen ammo loaded to the same pressure with cci and fed primers and get completely different looking fired primers. Ive seen ammo loaded with wolf primers using the same exact load with some primers looking normal some looking flattened and some even pierced with loads that are right out of a load manual. My guess is your looking at more of an ammo problem then a gun problem. It still wouldn't hurt to buy a new pin and spring but I woundnt go with a weight other then factory. Millons of 700s are out there running just fine with a factory weight spring. I seriously doubt its a headspace problem either. that's pretty rare in factory guns. quick check to see if its might be even possible is to take a piece of fired brass and see if it chambers in another 223. Don't take that as absolute proof though because even if it doesn't it could be just that the gun your trying it in has a slightly tighter chamber. You should be able to measure your fired case and see how much its lengthened after being fired. Full length size and Trim a couple pieces of brass to minimum trim length and load one and shoot it in the gun and measure it. Youd also be seeing case separation after 2 or 3 firings if headspace was letting that case stretch. Ive found more problems through the years with out of spec dies causing this kind of trouble then headspace. Not that it cant happen. I had a 300 H&H model 70 that was on the iffy side with headspacing. If I full length sized brass I was lucky to get 3 firing out of it even with milder loads. I saw case separation firing once fired brass with that gun. If I neck sized the problem went away.

[Fernando]

Polish the tip without changing the radius.
The cratering is probably due to pin fit - some have them bushed.
You could try a different pin that may have a better fit.

[DCM]

Ok here is why IMO this is a headspace issue. Some of the primers look normal, some look like light strikes, some are blown, some cratered, many different brands, not just the brand(s) with soft primer cups. So it seems that the cases are not being held close to the bolt face all of the time, pointing to loose headspace IMO.

I would check the headspace first, if it is safe then I would neck-size some of the once fired brass from this rifle, insert CCI Mil. primers, load up some safe loads and re test.

Just my 02, YMMV

[tomme boy]

Nope. I have had numerous 223 rifles from several brands. Went through this with several makes. HS issues would be showing a belt around the case and the primer would be completely flat and flowing around the face of the case. None of his cases are showing any signs of HS problems. Like I said before there are two thing that can be going on.

One, Remington rifles are famous for having oversized firing pin holes. Thus needing to have them bushed.

Two, the firing pin spring is weak. If it is weak, the pin is pushed back upon firing and that is how the hole is punched. It also will cause misfires as the piece of the primer can clog up the firing pin inside the bolt. Usually you just cock it again and it will fire the second time.

Throwing mil spec primers in the cases will just cover up the actual cause not fix it.

[DCM]

Yeah why bother?




V V V V V

[Forrest r]

Nope. I have had numerous 223 rifles from several brands. Went through this with several makes. HS issues would be showing a belt around the case and the primer would be completely flat and flowing around the face of the case. None of his cases are showing any signs of HS problems. Like I said before there are two thing that can be going on.

One, Remington rifles are famous for having oversized firing pin holes. Thus needing to have them bushed.

Two, the firing pin spring is weak. If it is weak, the pin is pushed back upon firing and that is how the hole is punched. It also will cause misfires as the piece of the primer can clog up the firing pin inside the bolt. Usually you just cock it again and it will fire the second time.

Throwing mil spec primers in the cases will just cover up the actual cause not fix it.

Doesn't ptg sell an oversized fp tip for the 700's?

[Markopolo]

Start with the spring as many have recommended... springs are cheap. Step one. If your gunna keep the rifle, why not grab a couple different sizes. The stiffest to the factory stiffness. Buy all 3.

If that doesn’t fix it, then go with the other option that tommyBoy suggested. Pretty simple to get the thing bushed, even in Canada.

Play around with it a bit. The challenge is the exploration, and the most satisfying.

Marko