Levers and group fliers

[PBSmith]

I don't expect any lever action rifle to deliver bench rest accuracy.

That doesn't keep me from trying to squeeze the best out of mine, however.

Often times I'll shoot a 5-shot group with 4 in a clover leaf, the 5th a flier. The flier can be the first or last shot. I always allow for the necessary fouling shots.

I don't see this flier problem nearly as often with my bolts - same reloading and shooting techniques, same distances, telescopic sights.

Do others here find the flier to be a pretty common occurrence when bench shooting a lever action rifle? I read about the spring and slop in a lever's bolt and wonder if that's the explanation.

I'm shooting .30-30, .32 WS and .35 Rem - mostly Marlins and mostly 1100-1400 fps.

[Hick]

Other than first shots (fouling shots) I haven't noticed that with my levers.

[PBSmith]

Other than first shots (fouling shots) I haven't noticed that with my levers.

Hick, what velocity range are you working in?

[indian joe]

I don't expect any lever action rifle to deliver bench rest accuracy.

That doesn't keep me from trying to squeeze the best out of mine, however.

Often times I'll shoot a 5-shot group with 4 in a clover leaf, the 5th a flier. The flier can be the first or last shot. I always allow for the necessary fouling shots.

I don't see this flier problem nearly as often with my bolts - same reloading and shooting techniques, same distances, telescopic sights.

Do others here find the flier to be a pretty common occurrence when bench shooting a lever action rifle? I read about the spring and slop in a lever's bolt and wonder if that's the explanation.

I'm shooting .30-30, .32 WS and .35 Rem - mostly Marlins and mostly 1100-1400 fps.

My 76 Uberti was walking them up the target as it warmed -- shoot a couple to get it hot then got a good group - I think I might have it sorted - put a new magazine tube on and did away with the barrel mounted hanger. more testing needed yet 1

Have a 94 rifle in 38/55 that is deadly and consistent from first shot to last - the magazine hanger is not really a hanger at all on that one - quite loose up front.

Walking shots vertically is a classic tube magazine problem I reckon - some dont but many do - short magazine rifles seem to be exempt

Paco Kellys had a good article on this ages ago - accurising a lever gun or something like that.

I dont think it is action related - blame the tie up (or poor fitup) between magazine tube, forend and barrel

[NyFirefighter357]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

https://www.rangerpointprecision.com/single-post/2014/06/10/Accurizing-the-Marlin-Lever-Action-Rifle

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/24/get-a-grip-on-lever-action-accuracy/

[Walks]

I've always put a Big folded & folded towel between forend and sandbags, the "softer" rest seems to keep groups "rounder" ?

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=NyFirefighter357;4545944]http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

yup that one

I did mine a bit different but its a rifle with steel forend cap and dovetail into the barrel - rather than the carbine style barrel bands

Magazine tube material comes in the local furniture store (steel curtain rod in 16mm or 19mm sizes) take (burn?) the plastic coating off, emery paper clean up, its perfect OD for the stock rifle fittings - can heat blue it with the torch - but that will soften the steel some - or a cold blue with touchup will work.

the steel forend cap on a winchester is ready to go - look at the button plug arrangement on a short magazine rifle (model 92 fr instance) its got a small square shoudered ridge around the button that prevents it coming forward out of the end cap - thats what holds the tube against recoil on a short magazine rifle. (we have lots o these in Aussie land - comes from ammo being expensive I think)

So turn a ring same as that and silver solder or braze it onto the new curtain rod tube in the correct position (I cheat here - allow a bit and turn the tube length to suit after you get the brazing done) it needs to be secure and neat fitted. We set this up so the steel forend cap when its screwed into its cross dovetail under the barrel, holds the magazine tube firm into the action body at the rear

So now the forward dovetail ring and the long screw from the magazine end plug that used to locate in a hole under the barrel, they go in the spare parts bin - if you really keen make a filler for the dovetail under the barrel - cosmetic only.

And we alter (make a new one) the magazine end cap plug so it is held in with a screw that does not engage in the barrel at all -

this removes any and all stress connections beteen barrel and magazine tube forward of the forend cap - if that doesnt do it then go ahead with Paco's float fix for the forend wood.

If yr rifle is NOT walking shots vertical on the target as it warms up - doin this might not make any difference - mine was and it did.

[sghart3578]

Is it only with cast bullets? Do you get the same results with jacketed?

If only with lead you may have a lube issue.

[Shawlerbrook]

Although not a big issue, the less rigid, two piece stocked levergun is definitely more susceptible to this than a one piece stock bolt gun.

[indian joe]

Is it only with cast bullets? Do you get the same results with jacketed?

If only with lead you may have a lube issue.

I can shoot a string of 50 blackpowder rounds without fouling out - dont think I have a lube problem - it all happened in the first three shots - once the barrel warmed (2 or 3 shots) then a good group comes .

[indian joe]

Although not a big issue, the less rigid, two piece stocked levergun is definitely more susceptible to this than a one piece stock bolt gun.

dont see many bolt guns with a full length tube magazine??????

[PBSmith]

Many good thoughts here. Thanks all for your contributions.

[PBSmith]

I've always put a Big folded & folded towel between forend and sandbags, the "softer" rest seems to keep groups "rounder" ?

So glad you brought that up, Walks.

I recall an old magazine article from Handloader or such where a Marlin owner had trouble getting his carbine to group. He experimented with different benching techniques and found much improvement in his targets by changing the way he rested and held on the bags. If I recall correctly, he talked about the gun "bouncing" and how that ruined accuracy.

I thought I was overcoming this problem by placing the receiver into a Vee-bag. Maybe not.

The narrow forend on most levers does present its challenges in getting a consistent, steady rest. Your folded towel trick is an easy one to try, and I'm going to see what happens when I switch to that method. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[PBSmith]

Is it only with cast bullets? Do you get the same results with jacketed?

If only with lead you may have a lube issue.

Good point. Yes, I experience the same with jacketed.

[Hickok]

I get better groups with lever actions if I hold the forearm in my hand, and then rest my hand on the sand bag/front mechanical rest.

If I try to rest the lever action forearm on sand bag/mechanical rest like when using a full stock rifle, the lever action rifle jumps off the rest and sometimes even "torgues" , (wants to turn right or left), and groups are never what they should be.

The drop of the buttstock on lever actions being great, also contributes to the jump off the front rest.

Also if I hold the forearm in my hand and rest the rifle, my point of impact is the same as if shooting the rifle off handed without a rest.

Just my experience.

[KCSO]

The old time cure was a lead shot under the magazine tube screw and then tighten it down. This wont work with some Uberti guns as they have no screw.

[PBSmith]

I get better groups with lever actions if I hold the forearm in my hand, and then rest my hand on the sand bag/front mechanical rest.

If I try to rest the lever action forearm on sand bag/mechanical rest like when using a full stock rifle, the lever action rifle jumps off the rest and sometimes even "torgues" , (wants to turn right or left), and groups are never what they should be.

The drop of the buttstock on lever actions being great, also contributes to the jump off the front rest.

Also if I hold the forearm in my hand and rest the rifle, my point of impact is the same as if shooting the rifle off handed without a rest.

Just my experience.

"Never what they should be" is the way I look at this flier matter - most of the time. However, I've shot enough outstanding groups (no fliers) to believe that the rifles are capable of excellent accuracy. Will definitely try your technique as well. Appreciate your comments.

[Hootmix]

The way I read the above articles ,, about forearm & magazine pressure's effecting the barrel & MOA ,which I have read at different time's over the year's ,, have me thinking ( dangerous ),, that the original style " Henry " ( no! forearm pressure points ),, may have been designed , in part ,,for that exact reason . Think about it,, no bedding , floating ,etc., etc. just need a good glove . With all the above being said ,, I have never held or shot a Henry,,i'm just " thinking "( dangerous).

[PBSmith]

A few additional comments.

I've experienced vertical stringing. That's not the problem here. I shoot very slowly. If the barrel starts to warm at all, I'll rest the rifle with action open and walk to the target between shots. With jacketed, this will be every second shot.

As I stated in the opening post, the flier might be the first, second, third, fourth or fifth shot. I look forward to seeing if different benching/holding techniques as described by Walks and Hickok cure the problem.

Excellent three-shot groups are what make me believe the rifles are capable of good accuracy. I've shot many such groups that "made my day," only to discover I couldn't repeat them. The problem I'm working on is getting good five-shot groups.

The occasional excess runout in my ammo could be another monkey wrench. If so, dies or other equipment could be at fault???? Am considering a collet die to see if that helps.

[PBSmith]

The way I read the above articles ,, about forearm & magazine pressure's effecting the barrel & MOA ,which I have read at different time's over the year's ,, have me thinking ( dangerous ),, that the original style " Henry " ( no! forearm pressure points ),, may have been designed , in part ,,for that exact reason . Think about it,, no bedding , floating ,etc., etc. just need a good glove . With all the above being said ,, I have never held or shot a Henry,,i'm just " thinking "( dangerous).

Keep on thinking, Hoot. That's how important discoveries are made.

[Texas by God]

I agree with Hickok ; that's how I do it as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Shawlerbrook]

Mic McPherson also has many suggestions on forend fit,etc. in his book .

[Hootmix]

I drive 30 miles to a local range ( 15 mi. ea. way ) on several days the weather has been cool-cold , shooting 50 yds. w/ 76- 40/60 Chappie. 1st. rd. most nearly always, will be " center" ,loading 1 at a time,, do 4-5 rds. all good ,, looking in spotting scope after ea. shot ,, making notes in my book, but if I get to fast , that's when the flyers start . The heating up,, is why my thought's on the Henry . Those of ya'll that have shot the Henry may enlighten me if ya' want.

coffee's ready,, Hootmix.

[Savvy Jack]

I am still learning this long distance stuff myself. Trying to figure out which position yields the best results. Typically I measure the distance between my hits with states. One hit may land in Alabama while the other in Georgia!

While trying to first learn the accuracy of the rifle, I decided to use a Hyskore rifle rest hoping to rule out shooter inaccuracies. I am still getting conflicting stories about strapping down the barrel so I have just been letting it rest on the aft end of the forearm stock with the butt stock clamped into place. I try to get the cross hairs on target without have to use slight force from any direction. So far I have achieved my best results and using my handloads.

The best I have done so far is 17-20 consecutive shots grouping 4" @ 100 yards and 40 consecutive shots grouping 18" x 18 (30 shots) @ 265 yards with a Marlin 1894CB 44-40.

Loads are for my Marlin ONLY and may be too hot for other weak action rifles like the Winchester 73' Use data at own risk!!
233674
Target 187 20 shots @ 100 yards

233675
Target 188 17 shots @ 100 Yards

233676
240gr SWC @ 1,480fps with a hefty load of IMR-4227
40 shots, 30 shots 18" x 18" after first 10 shots down to 21" for range, 265 yards...52" bullet drop

233677
Resting forward on forearm....changed later to aft of forearm with better results

[pmer]

A few additional comments.


As I stated in the opening post, the flier might be the first, second, third, fourth or fifth shot. I look forward to seeing if different benching/holding techniques as described by Walks and Hickok cure the problem.

I know supporting the fore end properly is important but this has me wondering about cheek weld and consistent placement of the butt stock to your shoulder. Just wondering if you're keeping that in mind as you shoot your string.

For me when I'm standing our sitting cross legged I don't have to think too much about about consistently shouldering the rifle. But operating lever action prone or from a bench I have to keep it in mind. And slippery metal but plates can shift at the wrong time, sometimes it doesn't much to kick one out of the group.

A little dry firing when you're in position can tell a story too. If the cross hairs or the front site jumps around when the trigger breaks that can be a bad sign.

[Hootmix]

Yup !! " a little dry firing " ,,for got to eject my last rd. ck'd the spoting scope ,, pulled the stock to my cheek , looked thru the tang sight centered on bull ,squeezed the trigger ,,,, heard the hammer hit solid,, saw the rifle jump!!! Dang !!! made me stop ,, no wonder . Good point pmer.

coffe's ready ,, Hootmix.

[PBSmith]

I know supporting the fore end properly is important but this has me wondering about cheek weld and consistent placement of the butt stock to your shoulder. Just wondering if you're keeping that in mind as you shoot your string.

For me when I'm standing our sitting cross legged I don't have to think too much about about consistently shouldering the rifle. But operating lever action prone or from a bench I have to keep it in mind. And slippery metal but plates can shift at the wrong time, sometimes it doesn't much to kick one out of the group.

A little dry firing when you're in position can tell a story too. If the cross hairs or the front site jumps around when the trigger breaks that can be a bad sign.

Yes, all of the above have me concerned. Cheek weld especially with a scope. Scope parallax is another bugaboo, especially at close range. I've spent a lot of time sifting through my scopes to find those that are parallax-free at ranges under 100 yards. Very few of mine are.

Back to resting/holding the rifle. That article I mentioned above is "Cast Bullets in Marlins, Once More," by Al Miller. It appeared in Handloader #98, July 1982. At one point, some of the backissue articles were available online at Handloader's website. I'm not much of a web jockey, and can't say if they still are.

[atr]

interesting....I shoot a .308 lever savage 99...180 GR cast. The first shot is always, and I mean always not part of the following 4 shot group. The final 4 shots are a tight group, the first is always about 1" off that group.
I use a sandbag and place it as close to the chamber end of the barrel as possible.

[sghart3578]

interesting....I shoot a .308 lever savage 99...180 GR cast. The first shot is always, and I mean always not part of the following 4 shot group. The final 4 shots are a tight group, the first is always about 1" off that group.
I use a sandbag and place it as close to the chamber end of the barrel as possible.


I had a Savage 340 that did the exact same thing. It drove me nuts. I tried everything.

Finally sold it with full disclosure to the new owner.


Steve in N CA

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have found that factory brass for lever action calibers does not seem to be made as carefully as that for cartridges like the 243 and 308. I have started weighing my brass and eliminating outliers, I am not getting carried away, a 3-4 grain range gets most of them, but I have encountered brass that was 10+ grains heavier and 5 grains lighter, I pull those from accuracy testing and 'for hunting' and move to the '25 yard tin can' pile. I have also started annealing more frequently, finding that some of the fliers are eliminated. If you use a neck expander/'M' die pay attention to the pressure needed to expand the necks. The ones that expand differently - very hard or very easy - will create a different bullet pull when firing and can cause a flier. Annealing eliminates this. I have a fancy ( high dollar) MRB annealer that I use because it is easy, but I do see a difference, group size may be slightly smaller, but the occasional wild one is gone. There is also something called a 'lube purge' I think, where excess lube builds up inconsistently and can causes a flier.

[Savvy Jack]

WARNING! Any of the following load data information is for discussion purposes only. They are MY results and yours could be much different. USE AT OWN RISK!


This morning I used a caldwell type two piece "sand-bag" rifle rest and did get some crazy results. I have a lot to learn.

100 yards 44-40, Marlin 1894CB

Layer two POA
233771
Avg. 1,665fps
Avg. 16,640psi

Layer One POA
233775

[indian joe]

WARNING! Any of the following load data information is for discussion purposes only. They are MY results and yours could be much different. USE AT OWN RISK!


This morning I used a caldwell type two piece "sand-bag" rifle rest and did get some crazy results. I have a lot to learn.

100 yards 44-40, Marlin 1894CB

Layer two POA
233771
Avg. 1,665fps
Avg. 16,640psi

Layer One POA
233775

Guys
I shoot for group with the butt on me shoulder, forend rested on a bag, or maybe hold the forend and rest me hand on the bag, been doin this for quite a time in order to no longer blame the gun or the load for fliers - sooooo if I get a stray in a five shot group - ya blinked, ya goose! - or ooops ya pulled that one - is my current response - operator fault!! - I guess we all think (most of the time) that we didnt do it - I have spent forty years fighting a flinch developed shooting magnum 12 gauge loads when I was still in school - when I owned up to it my rifle shooting improved a lot.!
Recently been campaigning a 1876 with heavy boolits (480 - 500grains) over 75 grains of black - I built a stand up bench and wear my sheepskin padded shooting vest for comfort - my hero days are long gone!

[Savvy Jack]

yeap, it's true, the problem is between the scope and the trigger!

[robg]

If you don't see muzzle flash you flinched.

[725]

Shooting a string allows the possibility of a change in your stock weld / cheek weld. Addressing the rifle differently can change your POI.

[PBSmith]

Shooting a string allows the possibility of a change in your stock weld / cheek weld. Addressing the rifle differently can change your POI.

Yes, I need to be more aware of that. And it's more of a hazard with a lever than a bolt gun, which can be worked without taking the rifle off the bags. This might at least partly explain why I get far fewer fliers with bolts. Thanks for your comment.

[ABJ]

Since you are getting great reply's, my own thoughts would be the same as post 15 and post 30. Also I think you are on the right track on your post 19. I will add a couple of things that hadn't been hit on yet. I tend to short trim my cases just a little to make sure they are all the same length. Always use same headstamp brass in a string. Primers will and do make a difference, please don't under estimate a primer change. If I develop a load with say rp and then switch to win cases the poi and group size are almost always different, not a lot but enough to matter to me. I have learned to measure the crimp and record it, it might be different when you switch brass. I have four different 30-30's and they all have different quirks but IF I am only shooting for group I single load so as to take the loaded mag spring out of consideration. If I am loading for hunting then I load the magazine. When I decide on a load I test it the way I would be field shooting it, ie... offhand, shooting stick/tripod, braced on the side of a tree etc... and make final sight adjustment on that.
That Savage 340 referred to in post 29, I had the same problem with mine. Cold barrel shot would be an inch out. My fix was a lightly lubed patch with the same lube on bullet with just a single drop of ed's red and run from muzzle to breech and back out the morning of the hunt cured it.
All these suggestions make it sound complicated but it's not, just work on one thing at a time and it will all come together.
Tony

[ABJ]

One more thing to add to my previous post. I test at 100 yards with scope and 75 with irons. I don't expect MOA although I get it sometimes, I want a round group at 2 MOA or better at 100. Only one of my levers will not do that, 2 1/2 is the best it will do. The funny thing is that rifle will do 2 1/2 with just about any so called standard load. It isn't picky at all.
Have fun with it.
Tony

[bikerbeans]

I have to claim that fliers are my fault. Since i load my own ammo and pull the trigger i have no one else to blame.

As far as group size everyone of my dozen or so marlin levers is different. I have done many barrel, mag tube and forend swaps and know that afterwards the rifle will shoot differently, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

BB

[Dan Cash]

I may have missed this observation by others in this thread but it does not seem that anyone is addressing mirage as "group opener." Mirage, particularly that caused by the heat waves coming off the gun barrel will really make the target move around which contributes to the spread of shot.

[pmer]

I'm learning from this thread too. I just annealed some cases in hopes of more consistent boolit seating effort.

[PBSmith]

Many, many good thoughts here. I see at least a couple of months loading and shooting work (=play) in trying all the suggestions given.

Thanks, all, for your helpful contributions.

[huntinlever]

I get better groups with lever actions if I hold the forearm in my hand, and then rest my hand on the sand bag/front mechanical rest.

If I try to rest the lever action forearm on sand bag/mechanical rest like when using a full stock rifle, the lever action rifle jumps off the rest and sometimes even "torgues" , (wants to turn right or left), and groups are never what they should be.

The drop of the buttstock on lever actions being great, also contributes to the jump off the front rest.

Also if I hold the forearm in my hand and rest the rifle, my point of impact is the same as if shooting the rifle off handed without a rest.

Just my experience.

Old, but as I'm going through it now after a long time away, I'm going through this now. Bounce and torquing is a tendency for me, too, unless I hold on. I think I might try resting my hand on something softer than the Caldwell Deadshot front bag, which is filled pretty hard (and is too low, otherwise I'd just empty it some).

[beemer]

I always check the butt stock fit on my Marlins. I try to get a good fit at the front and a tiny gap at the rear of the tang. You don't want the stock shifting side to side, that will throw the shot.