CZ Scorpion fired out of battery

[GARD72977]

My 20 yr old step daughter was shooting my CZ Scorpion. She has limited gun experience. She really had no idea about how the gun recoiled or when it actually fired. She was shooting a 20rd mag and this happened in the middle of the mag.

I loaded the ammo. It was close to max with a 147gr PC bullet.

The shell extracted but was not ejected from the gun. Nothing was jammed. This case was in the action and it was not locked back.

Looks to me as if the firing pin hit the primer when the case was partrially chambered.

The dark line is not a crack. Its just discoloration . the case is completely intact. Never seen anything even close to this
233575
233576

[Moleman-]

Had a similar thing happen with a 9mm carbine. Was shooting it and had a puff of smoke and burning on my left forearm. The ejected case had blown out and looking at the ground there were several ballooned up cases along with one that had ruptured. Checking out the gun, what had happened was a small amount of sand had got in the gun and was keeping it open by about 1/8" to 3/16". Ended up with what looked like mild sunburn on the inside of my left forearm from where the gas came out of the magwell, deflected off of the drum then onto my forearm. They were mild 124gr cast loads and the gun was shooting normally up until then.

[crankycalico]

talk about an unsupported chamber.... oh the superior automatic.

[Peregrine]

Very interesting how that case has deformed, thanks for sharing. That's wild!

I have zero experience with the Scorpion so I can't speculate as to the mechanical causes, but I am very glad the case did not actually burst and cause any distress or injury to your daughter. While even in that case it probably would be minor it for sure could have soured her on shooting.

[Hossfly]

Glad she didn’t get hurt. That is really strange looking. You wouldn’t think that brass could stretch that far and not separate. I wouldn’t think it would balloon like that unless it was very soft.

[owejia]

This one should go in your cartridge collection!!! Really symmetrical swell, would be hard to make one like that on purpose. Glad no harm came from it.

[Mr_Sheesh]

It took me a second staring at the picture wondering "what sort of widget is that case inserted into?" before I realized it was just the case! No sleep last night though, that's my excuse :P

Dang, definitely glad that wasn't worse! Something to figure out and fix, definitely.

[GARD72977]

I posted a pic because it was so odd. My personal opinion is the brass is not weak at all but of exceptional quality. I think the quality is why it was able to form completely symmetric. Just my opinion.

What ever allowed it was certainly rare.

[EMC45]

That's nearly perfect.

[JBinMN]

GARD72977,


I am Very glad to read that no one was hurt or worse, and what an amazing thing to see!

Thanks for sharing!

--------------------------

It took me a second staring at the picture wondering "what sort of widget is that case inserted into?" before I realized it was just the case! No sleep last night though, that's my excuse :P

Dang, definitely glad that wasn't worse! Something to figure out and fix, definitely.

You are not alone. Early this morning I did the same thing, thinking it was a case inserted into something else.

[725]

Glad no injuries. Had a Colt 9mm AR do a similar thing. The owner is a reasonable gun guy, but we never decided why it happened.

[SOFMatchstaff]

I have had several instances in sub guns that produced the same bulged ring, and every time it was caused by a case separation that left the front portion of the case in the chamber, thus a short chamber depth and out of battery ignition.

You dont say whether you continued to shoot after the incident. When I first read the "CZ Scorpion, 147gr " I thought 32acp, 147gr, close to max, ....WOW .. A closer look at the headstamp explained what you didnt indicate in the post. Also is it a semi auto or NFA weapon? I would bet on an under-resized case or a fouled chamber of some sort. Just some thoughts with my AM coffee...

[Smoke4320]

Balloon head cases what a rarity :)
Glad everyone is OK

[Hickok]

It surely does say a lot for the strength of that brass case!

[Winger Ed.]

Wow. I saw a case bulged/swollen out, but not ruptured from a 1911 that a guy had overdone the ramp job at the rear of the barrel.
But nothing like that. Its surprising the case didn't rupture out like a piece of pop corn.

[GARD72977]

The gun is standard 9mm scorpion 16" BBL.

I'm not sure what caused the cartridge to not chamber. We had shot over 100 rd from the same lot ( my reloads) . The gun had no chamber obstruction and was fairly clean. After I examined the gun and found nothing wrong I shot mag through it. Never malfunctioned again.

I'm just not sure if the firing pin was stuck toward or what. I would like to know what caused it to fire.233620

[jsizemore]

Was that mixed headstamp brass and did you check with a case gage?

[GARD72977]

Yes mixed brass. It was loaded on a Dillon 1050. Did not check with case gauge.

[clum553946]

Does it dry fire with the bolt retracted?

[WheelgunConvert]

Have you put a magnet to it to see if it is some of that brass washed steel that seems to be more common?

[GARD72977]

Magnet does not work on case

[MT Gianni]

Is it me or does the primer look proud on that first picture. I understand the case is warped badly.

[varmintpopper]

A firing pin stuck forward in the bolt could caused it to fire the round before being fully seated in the chamber.

Good Shooting

Lindy

[GARD72977]

Next time debris could exit the ejection port.

With all the PCC's being shot in USPSA i wonder how much this is happening

[jsizemore]

What if you had a case that was a little shorter then normal. Maybe the bell was removed but you didn't get a bite into the boolit with the case mouth. Boolit got set back and pressure jumped above normal just enough to overcome the blowback design of your carbine and back the case out enough to swell the case and leak some gas to the rear to produce all that soot.

Not saying this is what happened but could be possible. The added thrust from higher pressure was just enough to slightly overcome the mass of the bolt and the spring pressure. There was enough pressure to obturate the case mouth and drag against the chamber wall and then when it finally dropped enough to allow sooty gas to blowback toward the shooter.

[winelover]

Will have to keep a eye on mine. Have shot thousands of rounds, mostly cast. I clean the action after several sessions of over 200 rounds. I use a lot of AA#7 which produces a lot of powder kernels. No issues yet.

jsizemore: I don't know if you've ever seen the bolt on the Scorpion but it is massive and the spring is very heavy. Wouldn't want to get a inadvertent finger caught in there when the bolt releases. When I run a patch thought the barrel, with the bolt locked back, I always use tweezers, to remove the patch.....

Most plausible reason, to me, is the firing pin not retracting. I have had mine go off in double tap mode, just from recoil.

Winelover

[Bkingnsmth]

Many people think that because it is a carbine or subgun you can run hotter ammo in it. WRONG! There is NO locking system in the majority of these. If it is sole blowback you cannot hottrod it. It will do the same thing or worse. I have heard the same ole story for many years and I'm surprised so few people get hurt. Slow that load down a bit or change powder but quit shooting it in your scorpion finish them in a handgun ( locking system ).


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[MT Gianni]

Was your daughter shooting at a target and was the impact markedly different?

[jsizemore]

Will have to keep a eye on mine. Have shot thousands of rounds, mostly cast. I clean the action after several sessions of over 200 rounds. I use a lot of AA#7 which produces a lot of powder kernels. No issues yet.

jsizemore: I don't know if you've ever seen the bolt on the Scorpion but it is massive and the spring is very heavy. Wouldn't want to get a inadvertent finger caught in there when the bolt releases. When I run a patch thought the barrel, with the bolt locked back, I always use tweezers, to remove the patch.....

Most plausible reason, to me, is the firing pin not retracting. I have had mine go off in double tap mode, just from recoil.

Winelover

I figured it was like the sten. Moved the bolt back far enough to extrude a bit of brass. I figured If the firing pin was so cruded up to cause it to stay extended that it would have happened again after a couple more mags. Did he ever say if he disassembled the bolt to check/clean it?

[GARD72977]

Many people think that because it is a carbine or subgun you can run hotter ammo in it. WRONG! There is NO locking system in the majority of these. If it is sole blowback you cannot hottrod it. It will do the same thing or worse. I have heard the same ole story for many years and I'm surprised so few people get hurt. Slow that load down a bit or change powder but quit shooting it in your scorpion finish them in a handgun ( locking system ).


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This load is not max! No one is Hot rodding anything. Where did you get this Idea from? Why do you post it in my thread?

You will not get a warm welcome here with these kind of post.

[swheeler]

That is one strange looking piece of brass! I made a belted rimless rifle cartridge casing a couple of times, not on purpose though. Glad the casing didn't let go and nothing/nobody got hurt.

[Bkingnsmth]

This load is not max! No one is Hot rodding anything. Where did you get this Idea from? Why do you post it in my thread?

You will not get a warm welcome here with these kind of post.

" I loaded the ammo. It was close to max with a 147 gr pc." You said it not me.


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[GARD72977]

" I loaded the ammo. It was close to max with a 147 gr pc." You said it not me.


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I'm not getting in to a pissing contest. On your 4th post you are trolling.

[Moleman-]

Well, for what it's worth the load in mine was 4.0gr W231 and a Lee 124gr at 1.169col which comes in at 19,494 psi on the QuickLoad guess. With a SAAMI max pressure of 35,000 psi mine was just over half of the allowable pressure and it still bulged out a few cases and blew out one case from an obstruction in the receiver keeping the bolt from fully closing. Many pistol caliber blowback carbines do not have a trigger disconnect and rely on the shape of the bolt and hammer to only make full contact with the firing pin if the bolt is mostly closed. It's something to be aware of.

[Texas by God]

My late brother got a Tec-9 in a trade that did that with every round(balloon the case head) so we broke it down for parts and sold them. The plastic frame and some PVC pipe made a toy gun for my nephew.

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[WILCO]

Owners manual says to use factory loads only.
I truly enjoy these "I loaded a bunch of ammo and something went wrong" threads.
Handloads always start their trail with the guy at the bench.

[GARD72977]

You do realize you are on Cast boolits.com . here we cast our own and load them.

[jsizemore]

Owners manual says to use factory loads only.
I truly enjoy these "I loaded a bunch of ammo and something went wrong" threads.
Handloads always start their trail with the guy at the bench.

I cast and load my own because of the sorry factory ammo I've seen.

[WILCO]

Nothing wrong with loading your own.
The point is, the OP has joined the ranks of the mishaps.
There's three things wrong with his process.
One of them is not using factory ammo in a firearm that says to do so.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Failure to recognize failure leads to accidents and negligence.
Life is tough, even tougher if you're stupid.

[jsizemore]

:holysheep I'm glad I didn't say that!

[redneck1]

Absurd some of the things you read on the internet .
I guess if we follow that logic anyone who has ever used a reload or a cast bullet in a glock is also a fool
Or for that matter just about any firearm bought in the last 15 years or so .

Enough of that though , I tend towards the slam fire theory with a chamber obstruction.
There is a lot of mass in a striker

[GARD72977]

Nothing wrong with loading your own.
The point is, the OP has joined the ranks of the mishaps.
There's three things wrong with his process.
One of them is not using factory ammo in a firearm that says to do so.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Failure to recognize failure leads to accidents and negligence.
Life is tough, even tougher if you're stupid.

Thanks for your insight and wisdom. Being in the south we really appreciate you people from California.

[Tackleberry41]

Is a curious rant considering where we are, a cast bullet forum. EVERY gun says no reloads, every one of them. Guns can actually screw up sometimes.