Smith and Wesson 9mm revolver during WWII ?

[40-82 hiker]

I'm rather curious about this, if someone can help:

I am reading a book about Lt. Hanns Alexander and Rudolf Höss. In this book there is a reference to "9mm Smith and Wesson revolvers" carried by British officers in German only British Pioneer Corps companies. These companies were comprised of German national immigrants who had enlisted and were put into Great Britain's Pioneer Corps for initial training, with British officers in charge of the companies. The Germans were not issued firearms at that time in training, with British officers only having firearms. The author, as I have accurately quoted, does not reference "Luger", only "9mm".

Questions: Did S&W actually make a 9mm Luger revolver before or during early WWII? Or, is this author incorrect in his statement. Could Hanns Alexander (with his German background) have simply just referenced the .38s as being 9mm with such a small difference in diameter, and the author picked up on this (sic, is there a European designation for our .38s)? There is no footnote or postscript to help with this reference. Seeing as this was in 1940/1941, and in Great Britain, I'm not sure how these designations were jumbled up, or not.

I did do a quick "google", and was left wanting for answers. I found reference of 9mm Model 10s being produced by the Israelis in the 50s (?), but this is not the right time frame, anyway.

[reddog81]

The UK was desperate for guns at the start of WW2 and gave $1 Million to produce a sub machine gun in 9mm. That project was a failure and S&W ended up sending them a bunch of 38 S&W revolvers instead. That's the short version of the story I'm familiar with...

I'm guessing that 9mm is a reference to the nominal bullet diameter of the 38 S&W round. Any 9mm Luger revolvers from that time frame would be very rare. FWIW the 38 S&W round is a very similar size to 9x19. The biggest difference in appearance would be the rim of the 38 S&W case.

[Outpost75]

The Brits commonly call all handguns "revolvers" but the S&Ws referred to were in fact .38 Hand Ejectors chambered for the .380 Mk2 .787", aka 9x20mm Rimmed, aka. .38 Smith & Wesson. S&W did not produce a 9mm autopistol until 1951. A semi-auto 9mm carbine in development when WW2 broke out was a dismal failure and S&W provided the .38 revolvers to avoid having to refund the deposit paid by Britain for R, D, T&E.

[MUSTANG]

The UK was desperate for guns at the start of WW2 and gave $1 Million to produce a sub machine gun in 9mm. That project was a failure and S&W ended up sending them a bunch of 38 S&W revolvers instead. That's the short version of the story I'm familiar with...

I'm guessing that 9mm is a reference to the nominal bullet diameter of the 38 S&W round. Any 9mm Luger revolvers from that time frame would be very rare. FWIW the 38 S&W round is a very similar size to 9x19. The biggest difference in appearance would be the rim of the 38 S&W case.

The British DID develop, produce and deploy a 9mm SubMachine Gun during World War II. It was called the Sten.

British Sten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten


The British also developed, produced, and fielded another 9mm Submachine Gun late in the war (1944), to was called the Sterling.
British Sterling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_submachine_gun

[Bigslug]

Per Wiki: "In other parts of the world, it is known by its metric designation of 9x29.5mmR or 9.1x29mmR", so I would tend to think you just have a case of a metric minded and not terribly gun-saavy person rounding off for the sake of brevity. As far as I know, nobody thought of putting a 9mm Luger into a moon clip until some time in the 1980's or '90's. When I worked in gun shops, I don't know how many times I had someone bring back a box of 9mm Luger that they purchased for a .380 because their gun said "9mm Kurz" or "9mm Corto" on the slide.

Another nomenclature quirk to be aware of when continuing their search - the model number structure we're familiar with for Smith & Wessons (Model 10, 14, 15, 17, 19, 29, etc...) did not exist until 1957-58. Prior to that, they had names like Military/Police, Target Masterpiece, Combat Masterpiece, Registered Magnum, etc...

[40-82 hiker]

Thank you to all who responded.

I am now wiser for the answers. It just seemed weird to me to see a reference to a "9mm Smith and Wesson revolver".

[35remington]

I’m thinking that putting a high pressure 9mm cartridge in the fairly mild steel K frame guns made at the time might not have turned out too well anyway. The 38 revolvers of the time were not really up to Plus P 38 Special pressures for long term use (no Smith K frame revolver of that era was rated for Plus P retroactively either) and 9mm would have been like shooting them with proof loads all the time. 38 Plus P = 20,000 psi, 9mm 35,000.

[Bigslug]

Like a friend of mine says: "There are two kinds of countries: those that use the metric system, and those that have been to the moon." :mrgreen:

Truthfully I've never really done metric to inch conversions in the reloading context until this thread planted a bug.

9.0 millimeters = .3543307 inch (9x19 Luger diameter. . .almost)

9.1 millimeters = .3582677 inch (.380 Auto diameter - ish. Will make your .38 Special and .357 Magnum happy. . .maybe)

9.2 millimeters = .3622047 inch (.38S&W)

9.3 millimeters = .3661417 inch (a teensy bit fat for 9x18 Makarov, or maybe just right for cast)

And they're all called "9mm's".

And the fattest of the American family of revolver rounds tops out with cast around .363", yet for some reason we insist on calling them "thirty-eights".

Little wonder folks get confused.:veryconfu

[Outpost75]

M.R.D. Foote's history of the S.O.E. in France indicates that WW1-era captured Lugers were air dropped to the resistance and Browning Hi-Powers were used by Special Boat Squadron and Commando units armed with STENs to simplify ammunition supply. They also referred to the 9mm autopistols in official documents as "revolvers," that term being common British Army use for any handgun.

[rintinglen]

S&W did make a handful of (no serial number higher than than 9 has been authenticated) N-frame 9mm revolvers. A few were supposed to be sent to China, but the war's end put the kibosh in that idea. There is a picture in the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson of a pre-war 5 inch N-frame chambered for the 9 mm cartridge. IIRC, they were to use half-moon clips.