Big payloads in 2 3/4" 12 gauge

[Ginsing]

I'm curious:
I got a Russian paradox slug mold and cast up a few today. Using the supplied core pin it cast a slug at 630 grains which there is plenty of data for. As cast with the standard core pin it is just a hollow base slug. I used the core pin from my Italian slug mold so I can use an attached tail wad, the resulting slug weighs 750 grains.
Wow that is a big chunk of lead.
The issue is that I can not find any load data for a 1.7 oz slug in a 2 3/4" hull.
I don't have any, or even any access to 3" hulls.
Is it possible to getting this thing to work

[Cast_outlaw]

Well f you ask around I’m sure someone has some 3” shells they could send ya but maybe find a 1 1/2 oz load reduce the charge by 25% and use something strong to test it in and then work up or down watching for pressure sine an 870 Remington are tuff as nails with a mag receiver I bulge a primer into the firing pin hole with one of my experiments that I won’t try again but the slug barrel and receiver weather it like nothing happened other than it was sticky in the chamber had to knock it out with a barrel drop weight I made for knocking wads out on squib loads on the trap feild or stuck cases (you fire enough rounds and you will get cases that don’t eject eventually even with just target loads)

[Ginsing]

I have been trying to find some for about a week. No dice.
I'm not really prepared to experiment at this stage of my life. I enjoy having all my fingers and eyesight

[Cast_outlaw]

You could try drilling out the base to reduce weight

[longbow]

Dig around a bit. There is load data for some pretty heavy slugs though it is scarce. Shotgunworld and Nitroexpress are places to look.

I loaded up 800 gr. slugs over Blue Dot using Alliant information IIRC but birdshot loads anyway. I should have some load data in my pile 'o stuff. I have some heavy slug load data Greg Sappington gave me but I'll have to dig for it. Seems to me it was with SR4756 now discontinued though I have a bit left.

Ross Seyfried used 21.5 grs. of Unique under his 750 gr. Paradox slugs IIRC. I have that write up so can check for sure. This would be a mild load producing BP type veolities I think though it seems like a heavy payload for Unique so pressure could be fairly high.

This is why I like to keep slug weights about 600 grs. max. and preferably below 600 grs. Much more load data available!

I have a few 3" hulls you could test with though not many and I want to try some Tri-ball loads myself. I'll share though. Give me a call.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got the same mould coming from Mother Russia it was only $108 with free shipping but the delivery time was way out to the end of this month or beginning of Feb.

I will find us a source for the plug in wads at the SHOT Show in a couple of weeks. I already know they come from Italy and the guy who gave me the Thunderbolt slugs a few years ago will be there and they use the same type of wad just red instead of white. The inside of the slug is shaped the same as one of the Paradox Mould Pins as well. The Russians just copied it

The kicker is finding a source for the wads,,, which exists just have to find it.

If you start low enough you aren't going to have to worry about blowing yourself up. I'm talking Subsonic or trap load velocities around 1000 to 1100 fps. Then go shoot something to convince yourself that they are pretty formidable slugs even at those lower velocities.

I was watching a Youtube Video from "Taofledermaus" while waiting for my car to get serviced today. They were shooting Solid Lyman slugs forwards and backwards. These weighed 600Gr + and they were shooting at 800 fps and then 1000-1100 fps.

The Paradox Slugs should be more of the same. I liked the variation where you screw a gas seal wad on the back for a non discarding Sabot which is pretty much what the plug in wads do. LB would like them fo sho!

All these are for the rifled slug barrel on the A5.. with Powder Coating too boot!

Randy

[Ginsing]

I ended up ordering through a guy in the states. Unfortunately he only sent it with the standard core pin. I borrowed the core pin from my Italian slug mold wich does work however has a shorter block out in the bottom. This combo created a slug with 1/4" longer skirt section.
I have the proper core pin ordered from Russia yesterday along with the "Universal" core pin and 500 more wads.
I will likely just wait untill the proper core pin arrives to do any testing. With the proper core pin the slug should weigh about 550 gr and be the shorter length.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Where did you order the wads from? Link?

Randy

[Ginsing]

http://svaroghunt.ru/pulelejki
Molds are $58, core pins are $8 and wads are $6/100
I ordered 2 molds and 1000 wads last time and shipping was $50.
This time 2 core pins and 500 wads was $24 shipping.
They have wholesale discounts as well.
I'm contemplating doing a bulk order for distribution in Canada.
P.S. longbow:
I couldn't ask you to give up any of your powder or hulls. I am curious about your load data if you end up digging some up

[megasupermagnum]

If you use that tall wad, how is it going to fit in a 2 3/4" hull?

I don't see where you mention what hull you have, but here is for a Federal 2 3/4" "hunting" low plastic basewad. AKA buckshot hulls.

Federal 2 3/4" .090" basewad hull
Federal 209A
32 grains Bluedot
Federal 12S4 wad
1 5/8 oz lead shot (711 grains)
fold crimp

1225 FPS
10,300 PSI


This is straight from Federals load data book.

[Ginsing]

It should still fit, providing it's not super bulky powder. The overall length is the same as the Italian slug and I managed to fold crimp a cheddite hull with 35gr longshot and the Italian. Also loaded some up with 26 gr universal in a cheddite hull.
I can also try roll crimping.
The only suitable hulls I have would be gold medal, federal hunting and cheddite hulls.

[megasupermagnum]

Well there you go, try the federal hunting hulls. I wouldn't be scared at all to load some up with 30 grains of powder, and the listed 32 grains should still be safe as well if you want more punishment.

[Ginsing]

The hunting hulls I have are paper basewad. Though if I cut my charge to perhaps the 30gr bluedot in a cheddite hull.
I guess I'm a little squeamish when it comes to experimenting. Big slug, lots of bering surface, no data.
I'll load some up and see if the components fit, I'll keep you all posted

[megasupermagnum]

I just looked, there is a 1 5/8 oz load in a Cheddite hull with Cheddite primer, although with Longshot powder. I don't think Longshot is a good powder for this, but right next to it was the same exact load, this time in a Federal low plastic basewad hull and 209A primer. The velocities were similar, and pressure about 1000 PSI higher for the Cheddite. As someone else said, with a chronograph you can start really low and work up to 1000-1100 fps. You could safely push that to 1200 fps with Bluedot. If you can fit everything in a Gold Medal hull, I'd start at 28 grains, and adjust accordingly.

I don't like experimenting in shotguns either, just keep velocities low and you will be more than safe. I'm thinking of investing in the Pressure Trace system this year so I push up to real maximums.

[Ginsing]

Update:
I finally got around to checking fit in a cheddite hull with the long paradox slug and tail wad.
Charged a hull with 28 gr bluedot and tried a fold crimp. It turned out ok, crimps are slightly tenting. I may try a roll crimp. My proper base pin from Russia should be here Monday along with 500 more wads so it's lookin more and more that my testing will be done with the shorter lighter slug.
I might try a few of the longer slugs as a curiosity thing. Just by the feel of them I'm not certain that these wads will keep these monster slugs stable through a smoothbore.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ginsing: Can you post some pics of your slugs ?

Randy

[Ginsing]

234353234354234355

[longbow]

Is that the Russian Paradox or Tusker? I thought the Paradox had a round nose but then neither is quite like the original... not that is matters, they are all nice slugs the Russian moulds cast.

That is a whopper when you use the Gulandi pin! How is slug fit to your bore? There's lots of bearing surface there for sure.

It'll be interesting to see how they shoot. With that long tail wad I doubt the extra skirt length will cause any grief ~ there's lots of wad behind for drag.

[Ginsing]

Longbow:
It is the paradox mold. It is a monster for sure, I will include a few in the package I'm getting ready for you.
The fit is a drop through in my cylinder choke and a little too tight in my I.C. it would be a perfect fit in a skeet choke but I don't have one for my 590a1
I will be testing soon, we should definitely get together for a range day

[longbow]

Yes! I have to load up several types of slugs and some 2 ball loads for testing.

Hmmmmm... I was sure KrackenFan69 said the slugs he sent me were Paradox slugs but they have a round flat nose. Doesn't matter as the only real difference is the nose and maybe weight. Of course the original Paradox bullets used by H&H were solid and around 750 grs.

If your slugs are a bit small for your cylinder bore I can knurl them for you. So far I only have two sizers though ~ one for my 0.733" bore single shot and one for Lee slugs to remove taper at 0.672". A light knurl may be all that is required and it is pretty easy to do to get a specific size even without sizing.

Also, it occurs to me that I just bought a blank choke tube to rifle (in progress and at this point restarting with new cutter) and a cylinder bore choke tube but I haven't checked the diameter of the cylinder bore tube. It is Mossberg thread so should fit your gun. I'll check the diameter and let you know. If it is suitable for your slugs you can borrow it.

We can compare Paradox slugs too. I've still got a few as KrackenFan69 sent and a few I've knurled then sized. These are fairly soft alloy.

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

I’ve loaded the 770 grs accutips slug in 2.75” cases with no problems at all.


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[Reverend Al]

I have a number of the old reloading pamphlets that were handed out free through sporting goods dealers years ago and one of them listed a 1 7/8 oz shot charge in a 2 3/4" Federal Gold Medal hull using Hercules (Alliant) 2400. I loaded a few just to try them out and they were a bit brutal to shoot, but worked very well for our local shotgun turkey shoots were there was no restriction on the loads you could shoot. As previously mentioned you could always start a bit low and work up a load if you have a chronograph to work with? I can try and find the pamphlet and dig you out the recipe if you want it?

[Ginsing]

I do have a chronograph
Blood trail: I would love it if you could share your recipe with me.
Reverend Al: that would be great if you can find the recipe, one can never have too much info and load data. Share whatever you have, I love to learn

[Reverend Al]

OK, I'll have a look for it when I go down to my shop today ...

[Ginsing]

Great thanks!
I'm trying to wrap my head around this hull length pressure issue. If all my components fit in a 2 3/4" hull and I use 3" data would I really experience higher pressure?
Even if I used 3" hulls they would still need to be trimmed down to get a proper crimp.
I'm just not seeing the relation between hull length and pressure if the payload fits and you arnt compromising cushion legs or compressible wads.
Can someone explain this to me

[Ginsing]

Longbow:
Instead of knurling up this slug I would be much more interested in sizing it down a few thousands. I like using my I.C. choke much more than cylinder. How difficult would it be to make a sizer to size down to .724"

[longbow]

I'm with you on that confusion. If the hull construction is the same I can't see how the powder knows the hull is shorter or longer. In fact same applies to wad column. How does the powder know whether you have a long or short wad column for a given payload? With hard card wads maybe a little more bore friction but that should be small.

Different hull construction I can see being an issue and removal of cushion leg I can see being an issue as that effectively changes volume at ignition (well... just after ignition). However, I fail to see how the "system" knows if the hull is 2 3/4" or 3" if everything fits or the difference is a longer wad column or spacer wads.

Without pressure testing equipment it is all a guess though so I find load data for the payload and hull then maybe make wad substitutions or what I think are minor changes. For my heavy slug loads I found equal weight birdshot recipes and subbed the slug. I mentioned 800 gr. slugs and looking at load data there is no 2 3/4" load data I am finding for that weight so maybe I used 3" data... got to look. I know I used old Alliant BD birdshot data and recall noting that the shotcup had little to know cushion leg.

I have to get my back up hard drive out too and find the info that Greg Sappington sent me for heavy payload data.

Longbow

[longbow]

Hah! you were typing at the same time I was!

The sizers are not hard to make. I just use round bar and bore it to near size then lap to get good finish and final size. These are simple hammer sizers... just a bored bar and a punch then drop the slug in and hammer it through.

I bore the top just a bit larger than the as cast slug so a slug will just drop in and line up sitting on the reduced sizing portion, bore the sizing portion to desired size and about 1 slug length, then bore the other end just larger than the sized slug.

I tried sizing my Lee slugs down to 0.662" from about 0.685" at the nose. With wheelweight lugs they cracked and broke up. Too much sizing. I wound up settling on 0.672" which worked and took out the taper which was the goal. So 0.013" worked okay. Your slugs have grooves so I have to think they'd size down quite easily, even if hard alloy, and you only want to go a few thou so shouldn't be an issue.

Plain old cold rolled bar works fine as it doesn't see high volumes of slugs and lead is soft. If you want harder an old car or truck axle works and can be heat treated. The punch can be cold rolled steel. For 12 ga. slugs you need a least 1" bar and preferably larger diameter. My last sizers were made from my old Jimmy axle.

Longbow

[dsh1106]

Just remember to fill the grooves with lube before you try to do any sizing, this will allow the groove to remain and make the slug grow in length.

This is the same technique I used to size 7mm (287405 - as cast .291) bullets down to fit my 270 ( sized @ .280)

Scott

[Blood Trail]

I do have a chronograph
Blood trail: I would love it if you could share your recipe with me.
Reverend Al: that would be great if you can find the recipe, one can never have too much info and load data. Share whatever you have, I love to learn

Nothing special. I’ve shot that 770 gr slug with 800X, BD, and steel. I used data for a similar payload for each powder in a Cheddite hull. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190121/909edfa52de08713cf661615790d26d5.jpg


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[Ginsing]

BT:
I'm assuming you used 3" load data