0.600" Two Ball Load [Archive]

longbow

01-06-2019, 02:23 PM

So... I got a Lee 0.600" mould for Christmas! You got to love family that gives you casting and reloading presents!

I've been toying with the idea of two and Tri_Ball loads for some time. James Gates posted Dixie's Tri-Ball load recipe which I will try but I also wondered about a two ball load in 2 3/4" hulls.

I cast up a bunch of balls yesterday and the mould cast perfectly. No cleaning (forgot), just sprue plate and pin lube, pre-heat and cast. Got keepers right from the start. No burrs, no issues, no problems of any kind. I haven't mic'd or weighed balls yet but they do look nice. The only downside is that the mould heats up quickly and has to be cooled or casting pace slowed but I used cooling and kept going fast with no other problems. This is a new style Lee mould and I would say good value for money and well made.

I have been wondering about why there doesn't seem to be much info on two ball loads and even Tri-Ball loads (which did get some press) when there is considerable interest in buck and ball loading. Personally I think a single projectile or something like Tri-Ball or two ball load is a better choice for bear or human self defense though any of these are a bit much for close range home/human defense. However, for bears that have taken exception to a guy being in the bush I think they are the way to go.

In any case, I am getting ready to try out some two ball loading. Two 0.600" RB's fit perfectly into 12 ga. CSD wads and should allow a nitro card wad in the bottom. They are a bit undersize but 3 wraps of note paper fixes that and I use 3 individual strips at 1 wrap each so they separate easily. I'll check bore fit but this seems good so far and is adjustable to bore by chaging paper thickness so will work and be used.

My plan is to use Federal field hulls and birdsshot load recipe of equal weight ~ around 626 grs. in wheelweights according to the Beartooth Bullets round ball calculator... I'll weigh some later.

I'll put either a nitro card wad under or a scoop of COW under and a nitro card wad between balls. With the paper wrap the column is firm so I won't use buffer.

If these RB's stay close this should be quite an effective load at least out to where ball spread is too large. If it all works out well, I'll check for equal weight slug or buckshot load data to improve performance. That may require hardened balls (currently ACWW). James recommends hardened balls for Tri-Ball loads.

The only two ball load I have read with any detail is from Shotgunworld ~ Deer Assassins two 0.690" RB load. Does anyone here have two ball load data they will share? And field results which is even better. If spread is too much too fast then not much point but since Tri-Ball loads seem to reach out a ways, these should too I think.

SIARM has both 3 and 2 ball "wads/sabots" but not sure if they ship to Canada. There must be interest on these loads in Europe. I'll check to see if they ship to Canada and at what cost.

If anyone has tried this or has any info please share. I will be loading up and testing in the next couple of weeks.

Longbow

Loudenboomer

01-06-2019, 03:07 PM

Didn't some of the old timers cast piano wire into both balls tying them together to keep ball spread and penetration to a minimum?

Hogtamer

01-06-2019, 03:30 PM

LB, I loaded a bunch couple of years ago, awesome loads and I don't know how anyone stands the 3 ball for recoil. IIRC the wads were very tapered and used a 28 ga card in bottom, that allowed a tight fit for the first ball, then had to patch the second ball to fit. Killed a couple of hogs too, but figured out a single .600 ball killed 'em just as dead. My single ball took a lot of fitting but shot with no recoil, 1/2 the lead and powder. Shot well from IC. The 2 ball I used 3" hulls and could get one on bull and 3 - 4" spread with second ball from rifled gun. They should perform from your Mossy pretty good when you get the fit. Mine were dinosaur loads and I'm just getting too old to like the huge recoil. Keep us posted !

longbow

01-06-2019, 07:18 PM

Yeah... I'll start low. Since they fit the CSD steel wads so well I expect they should shoot reasonably well and should fit 2 3/4" hulls okay.

I have been wondering about one 0.600" ball at higher velocity too. I guess i could use one of the BPI Killer Bee or similar high velocity loads they list in Load of the Week. They have some light payload high velocity data.

One ball on target beats two not on target! However, if spread is small enough then double impact area means a lot for bear stoppers which is the intent... of course just blowing stuff up with them can be entertaining too until the recoil sets in!

Something else too... it turns out that 0.882" RB's and some of my home made slugs are perfect fit into CSD wads and cut down some they may make an decent Brenneke like slug. I have some put together and will test shortly. A 0.600 ball at higher velocity may have its place though.

James reported some pretty good groups at pretty long range for Tri-Ball loads and those have to be good bear stoppers. I'll try those but I hear you about recoil! The disadvantage of these multiple light balls over a big single ball/slug is penetration. The lighter balls in heavy payload are moving slower so are not going to penetrate like a solid single slug. However, on a marginal shot making one or two hits out of three with those fairly substantial ball sis better than a miss. Also with a good hit and good grouping those three balls have to be devastating! Two balls at higher velocity may be about as effective.

Loudneboomer:

I have read of "chain shot" using buckshot and even larger projectiles and many years ago I tried using splitshot clamped to music wire. Didn't work very well for me. Seems to me someone is or was selling "bolo" rounds or the like with two or three larger balls connected. I'd think they might be good for anti personnel rounds but I think the connecting wire/cable would really limit penetration for uses against bears or other dangerous game.

Longbow

Moonie

01-08-2019, 10:21 PM

I do tri-ball loads and have thought about the 2 ball loads but have not looked into it seriously. Do be sure you water drop those .600 balls as the tri-ball load requires very hard cast balls.

longbow

01-09-2019, 12:01 AM

Moonie

01-12-2019, 11:23 PM

I was planning on using ACWW for the two ball load but I know the Dixie load recipe calls for quenched balls. I didn't think it would be necessary for the two ball load but after reading your post I'm rethinking and it is likely best if I oven heat treat the balls... just to be sure things don't go awry!

Thanks.

Longbow

Dixie reported someone with a bulged barrel after using pure lead soft in the tri-ball load. They were using a full choke and the bulge was near the choke, but I wouldn't chance it.

longbow

01-13-2019, 02:37 AM

For my planned load, the balls will be directly in line. Using a CSD wad and paper wrap the balls fit perfectly. Even if they did deform form acceleration a bit they'd just press outwards agains paper and plastic. With the thick CSD wad I doubt any barrel damage could occur and I will be using cylinder bore... no choke.

I will recheck the Tri-Ball recipe James posted and re-read others results before proceeding but I suspect the issue with Tri-Ball loads is both that the balls are not directly lined up and that a tight choke is recommended so when the balls "wedge" together and deform then hit a choke there would be a large amount of sideway pressure.

In any case, I'll err on the side of caution and use hardened balls.

SIARM has plastic "sabots" for two and three ball loads that should avoid any issues with deforming and sidewall pressure. And saying that reminds me that I sent them an online question regarding shipping to Canada because they have some slugs I'd like to try. I haven't heard back in a week+. I better try again!

Longbow

MusicMan

01-13-2019, 02:46 AM

Has anyone experimented with something like BPI 222PT20GS upside down under the balls in 12ga?

longbow

01-13-2019, 12:34 PM

I haven't because I haven't found any that fit... that is using gas seals off plastic wads as some do. It seems to be fairly common for guys to pick up used wads with cup shaped gas seals and cut them off for use under a ball. The wads I have or find do not have the right shaped gas seal to suit.

Donut wads are used though as are inverted gas seals. For full bore slugs 12 ga. gas seals of the right shape should work and for wad slugs either 16 or 20 ga. should work. I use 16 ga. nitro card wads under slugs and balls as they fit my Winchester wads well but thicker petals might need 20 ga. gas seal to fit. Whatever fits snuggly should work.

Precision Reloading used to have felt donut wads but I do not see them listed anymore. I wish I had bought some to try but I guess I can make my own or use a plastic gas seal as you suggest. Anything that keeps the ball centered should work.

Longbow

dg31872

01-13-2019, 01:17 PM

I am geting back into shotshell reloading, and have more questions than answers.
What is a "donut" wad?

longbow

01-13-2019, 04:31 PM

Well, I was going to describe them then decided a quick internet search might turn something up. Lo and behold! BPI has them! I looked just recently for donut wads and came to the conclusion they were a thing of the past. Not so:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/12ga-CT2-1_4-Felt-Wad-500_bag/productinfo/122CT2/

You can make them yourself using nitro card wads but much easier to buy. The idea is that the ball is centered by the hole so the hole cannot be too big or the wad too thin or it doesn't work.

The BPI blurb says for military and law enforcement so not quite sure what they need donut wads for but there you go.

Not sure why my last search didn't turn these up so thanks for stimulating me to look again.

I just may order some when I put in my next order.

Longbow

longbow

01-13-2019, 04:38 PM

I should add that donut wads are normally used under a single ball. The bore diameter dount wads would sit over a hard card wad column and under a 0.690" RB or up to bore diameter RB (I use 0.735"). For smaller balls in shotcups you could use a 20 ga. donut wad inside a shotcup. I'd also put a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup first for support.

dg31872

01-13-2019, 06:19 PM

Thank you, Longbow..
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I am curious about the "military and law enforcement" too.
Stay warm.

longbow

01-13-2019, 06:32 PM

Okay so back to 2 ball loads.

I just mic'd and weighed a few random balls and they mic within about 0.001"/0.0015" of round, which is good in my opinion, and they weigh from 314 grs. + a bit to 318 grs. + a bit so say nominal 316 grs. These are straight wheelweights by the way.

I'll add another plug for Lee here ~ this mould is flawless, no burrs, no marks no issues at all. It cast well right from the start and the balls are very even in dimensions and very close in weight with variation from my random quick check being within 1.25%. Pretty good for the price I'd say!

Payload without wad will be 632 grs. or a little under 1 1/2 oz so 1 1/2 oz. birdshot or buck shot load data should work fine. I'll start with birdshot loads at the lower pressure ranges.

Interestingly that makes these balls a hair under 3/4 oz. in wheelweights so some of the BPI 7/8 oz. or 3/4 oz. high velocity load data should work fine for single 0.600" RB in a CSD wad cut down or using a donut wad in shotcup. These could be pretty high velocity round ball loads at pretty sane pressures and I'd have to guess accuracy should be what round ball accuracy usually is. Less lead and probably less powder along with lighter recoil and still a pretty big hole. What's not to like?

Anyway, for now they are relegated to being 2 ball loads. I will try to get to the range next weekend.

Longbow

savage308

01-17-2019, 04:32 PM

I load 2 .600 lee balls in a 2 3/4 clear fiocchi hull with a factory primer and 27.0 bluedot. I use a B.P. TPS 1275
wad mica dusted and a 20 gauge 1/2" hard card between the 2 balls and fold crimp. work great for me.

longbow

01-17-2019, 08:16 PM

Good to hear! Thanks for the info.

I've as yet to load any yet as I got distracted by my modified Lee slug mould work. Now I've got those to load too. Was planning on going to the range this weekend but we just got another snow dump so I'll see what the weather is like first. Snow doesn't really put me off but it is supposed to warm up now and slushy goop does put me off.

Do you water drop or quench those RB's?

What sort of groups do you get and at what ranges?

If the spread is too big and too fast then they aren't a lot of use except maybe as bear protection. Not sure if one large slug or two smaller balls would be the better projectile. Two of those RB's is about 1 1/2 oz. so substantial mass. Individually though not sure how well they would penetrate.

Still, could be a fun and interesting round. if they group like the good Tri-Ball loads then this could be quite useful out to 50 yards or so.

Longbow

bikerbeans

01-17-2019, 10:08 PM

LB,

I am going to try (1) and (2) .600" heat treated RBs in a 3" 20ga rifled H&R tracker II. I plan to use a bpi brush wad for the single ball load. The ball is under bore diameter but the spinning brush wad should impart enough spin to stablize the ball.

I am still thinking about how to load two balls. I need a second plastic cup for the second ball so it will spin.

OT, did you leave the gate open at your place? NW Ohio is supposed to get upwards of a foot saturday and then subzero temperature sunday night. I think you would feel right at home.

BB

Markopolo

01-17-2019, 10:24 PM

How about these LB... called washer seals... I believe I got them from BPI about 5 years ago.. gas seal and ball centering all in one...

234192

234193

I often wondered about double ball loads, with one of these washer seals positioned between the 2 round balls...

Marko

SuperBlazingSabots

01-19-2019, 02:11 PM

Greetings Marco, that wad will be ideal for two RB load just by countersinking it a bit more for the ball to nestle on it and even tri ball loads. Great idea.
Thanks for sharing it.
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

longbow

01-19-2019, 04:18 PM

Are those what they call specialty "gas seals" for police and military use? I can't quite tell from the pic.

These:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB12-12ga-x-8mm-Wad-Base-250_bag/productinfo/072HB12/

If so I tried to order some of those a while ago from the Canadian BPI rep but there was some confusion as to whet they were even though I sent the part number. I suspect he'd never seen them before.

Not sure what their special purpose is and since they say gas seal but have a central hole I have to think they are for use on slugs but...? I really don't know.

For full bore loads they'd work as donut wads though as Ajay says, the hole might have to be opened up a bit, and the 20 ga. version might work for two ball loads in wads but they are a bit thick as ball separators. Two 0.600" RB's fill my deep CSD wads. I might get a nitro card wad between them or maybe thin felt.

What I want to try is those attached to the tail end of my TC HB slugs to Brenneke'ize them. The 16 ga. version might work well for my Brenneke'ized Lee slugs too. I should buy some full bore, 16 ga. for the Lee slugs and 20 ga. for donut wads under RB's.

I got to get organized and get an order in to BPI!

Longbow

Markopolo

01-21-2019, 03:29 PM

I looked on BPI website, and didn’t see them, but who knows.. take a copy of my Pic and send it to them at BPI sales. If worse comes to worse, pm me and I will part with a few, but you should know that outgoing shipping from here can be a lost cause here. We get mail delivery via floatplane to our boat dock, but the pilots dont like to take mail out if they can help it... too much paperwork. Usually they just throw the mail bag out the door of the plane on to our boat dock and off they go. So you gotta catch them also.

Also, you should know that the hole diameter in the center of those wads is larger then the screw diameter so to attach them to a keyed slug would mean yet another washer of some type. Or a screw with a larger head.

longbow

01-21-2019, 09:05 PM

Those do look like the gas seals BPI lists. Oddly I had failed to find them when I went looking a while ago but found them last time!

uncle dino uses those on his swaged slugs.

I think what I'd do is modify a core pin so the right diameter post of lead stuck out to go through the hole then run a screw in. That or assemble in a form and use epoxy so the gas seal would be centered by the form and hole filled with epoxy around a screw or pin. Once set it should be solid.

Yet another project that I likely won't get to for some time!

Thanks for the offer but I will locate what I need. Sounds like a lot of trouble for you! And here I complain about having trouble finding and getting stuff!

Longbow

RED BEAR

01-21-2019, 09:06 PM

I use a .600 ball with 3 .31 balls for buck and ball load not problem keeping them on about a paper plate at 25 yds and center mass at 50 yrds. Have not tried double balls if memory serves thats around 1 1/2 oz. Let us know how it works.

RED BEAR

01-22-2019, 01:05 PM

Judging what it does to the plywood backing at the range it would be bad news.

GregLaROCHE

01-22-2019, 08:45 PM

There’s a video on YouTube. I think they were even factory loaded. It was obvious, two is twice as good as one. Great idea for home defense.

Wiley D

01-22-2019, 09:00 PM

Didn't some of the old timers cast piano wire into both balls tying them together to keep ball spread and penetration to a minimum?

Ooh! Just take a 2 cavity mold and mill a slot on one side between the cavities. Then take sections of wire with keeper knots on the ends, drop them in the slot, and cast balls as per normal. Or drill holes out the bottom where the halves meet and use longer wire sections for an instant bolo round. That'd be fun to shoot at some trees you wanted to get rid of...

longbow

01-22-2019, 10:17 PM

I'v never tried the wire or cable and large balls but did try small diameter piano wire and SSG split shot many years ago. It didn't work well for me.

Also, as a side note, if using steel wire, spring tempered or not like piano wire, I would make sure you use a steel shot wad to keep that steel away from your bore... unless you don't like the gun! I'd think small diameter cable would be better than piano wire anyway.

As for self defense with these rounds, my thought is bear protection ~ 2 large balls have more frontal area than one larger ball or slug. Penetration... well, the jury is out on that one but I'd figure 0.600" RB's at 1200 or so FPS would do okay in the penetration department. If these 2 ball loads group well enough out to at least 25 yards and preferably further then I'll so some comparison testing with 0.678" and 0.735" RB's for penetration.

I am hoping to never have to use one of these or other loads for bear protection but better safe than sorry! Our bear populations of both black bears and grizzly bears are increasing or at least more sightings by me and people I know. I am getting nervous when berry picking these days!

A bear will get the most lead and velocity I can give him but for home defense, I'd not use slugs or RB's unless at subsonic/light load as I think they would tend to go through a bad guy and several walls, as well as whoever may be between those walls... or next door. 00 buck at moderate velocity or one of the smaller buckshot loads should be all a guy needs to stop the bad guy without putting others in the home, or neighbours, at risk. My thought anyway.

Yes, I have seen those factory 2 ball loads. I can't recall if diameter was mentioned but they were factory rounds. Also, SIARM has 2 and 3 ball "sabots" that stack the balls directly above each other and keep them contained. I e-mailed SIARM to see if they ship to Canada but no response.

Longbow

GregLaROCHE

01-23-2019, 07:06 AM

I saw something on YouTube about the two balls held together with a wire. As I remember, they weren’t that great, because one ball worked against the other.

r6487

01-23-2019, 02:47 PM

with the lee rb molds you can drill a hole out the bottom just small enough to run in picture hanging braided cable, to make the bolo rounds. What I discovered is the cable hole is so small you can still cast normally without having a lead sliver or finger trying to go down the hole, when no inserting cable for bolos. Kinking a v in cable then casting with it centered in the cavity works fine. Another thing, shooting short distances into cardboard, having a 12"-15" cable between the 2 balls is a waste, due to lack of spread. I've decided for 2 ball or 3 ball having as short a wire distance as possible is better, so they can't spread but rather are forced to group for best effect. I don't think the bolo effect works until they're out to a least 35-40 yds where spread is great enough to make bolo effect possible.

GregLaROCHE

01-26-2019, 10:39 AM

All these things are interesting, but are they really better than 00 buck shot?

Ginsing

01-26-2019, 12:05 PM

longbow

01-26-2019, 12:12 PM

Personally I'd say not. A 2 ball load with cable may hold the balls together for more effective long range impact but I suspect the cable would limit penetration so limiting usefulness of the tighter group... at least in the context of bear protection.

Buck and ball was an effective payload for use against people which are thin skinned and relatively small and wounding with a small ball was better than nothing but for bear protection my view is that wounding with a small ball is likely to be worse than a miss. Also, for bears or other dangerous game my impression is that penetration is the goal and balls on cables, smaller balls or buckshot are not going to penetrate as well as larger balls all else being equal. This is generally a fairly close range situation so extreme accuracy is not required, large frontal area and penetration are the main goal.

For home defense I'd say penetration should be limited so as not to endanger anyone else due to misses or pass throughs that can carry on through walls so small shot and again at such close range the shot will not spread out so much you'd need a wire or cable... in my opinion anyway.

My goal is a good payload for bear protection so single ball/slug, 2 ball load or Tri-Ball load are what I'll be looking at.

Once our weather improves I'll get to the range with some of the 2 ball loads.

Longbow

Petander

01-26-2019, 02:20 PM

Big and accurate is good.

I fired some of my 12 gauge Economy Paractise Slugs (Lyman 525 using factory trap rounds) just to see If I can hit anything with those. At only 1200 fps they hit pretty hard, 10 mm steel in the pic @ 40 yds.

234699.

longbow

01-26-2019, 10:41 PM

GregLaROCHE

01-27-2019, 05:42 AM

Yes they will penetrate much, much deeper than 00 buck. Have you ever seen a brown bear in real life? You feel undergunned no matter what you are carrying, I would not even consider buckshot as a bear round.

As a matter of fact I have seen quite a few brown bears. I one counted twenty three in one night going down a river where I once lived.

My buck shot comment was referring to two legged bears. I wouldn’t trust anything except a high power slug against a bear. I always preferred a high powered rifle over a shot gun for bear protection.

Petander

01-27-2019, 07:11 AM

Petander:

On the roll crimp thread you said you are using those 525 gr. slugs to replace 1 oz. shot loads? 525 gr. is closer to 1 1/4 oz.

I'm guessing you are not seeing any pressure issues like sticky extraction?

I realize that slugs tend to produce less pressure than shot but that is a fairly large weight increase especially over what is likely a fast powder.

I recall that TonyfromItaly (IIRC) said it is common practice in Europe to use birdshot load data plus 15% more powder for slug of equal weight. Not sure if that is a "universal" rule of thumb but it certainly indicates that slug pressures are significantly lower than shot load pressures.

Anyway, just curious about that big weight difference and pressures. It is obviously working for you.

Longbow

No issues at all. I've been doing this on and off for 20+ years with different shot weight & slugs. Wad petals do get toasted in this particular 525 version but accuracy is "tolerable" for my practise. But I didn't put anything under the slugs this time.My alloy is 16 bhn.

Using equal weight slugs to replace shot gives very mild loads. I did 20 gauge Two Ball loads in 1 oz loads,too.

I might get some of these pressure tested with my TSS loads,I just found a place that sells TSS and is willing to test.

234726

longbow

01-27-2019, 01:20 PM

Well that is interesting. Now I am curious if there is a "safe" rule of thumb for increasing solid projectile weight over the birdshot weight.

From what I have seen comparing various load data it seems that fast powders tend to spike in pressure with relatively small changes of increased payload, reduced cushion leg (volume) or similar "resistances" are added where slow powder (most of my experience is with Blue Dot) do not so much. No surprise I guess but without pressure testing equipment hard to predict results.

Just thinking if the 15% more powder is a "safe" rule of thumb what weight increase might be acceptable for a given safe charge for birdshot load. In your case the weight increase is about 17%... or a bit less with your alloy since it is running 16 BHN so not pure lead.

I'll have to check and see if we have anyone who does pressure testing in Canada. I only know of a couple of places in the States and I'd have to check about legality of shipping loaded rounds for testing both in Canada and across the border. Not sure if a few rounds is acceptable or not. Generally explosives and propellants of any kind are a problem for shipping.

Alternately maybe I should invest in pressure testing equipment. It isn't that horribly expensive nowadays.

We'll see!

Longbow

Markopolo

01-27-2019, 01:36 PM

Anything that goes airmail is a no no... and not sure about ground shipping ove the border? Can you receive powder and primers from the USA ground?

longbow

01-27-2019, 11:24 PM

Hahaha! NO!!

Homeland security shut that down after 9/11. A non US citizen cannot be in possession of reloading components including empty brass in the States now unless you have a valid hunting license or are attending a shoot and you cannot leave the country with any ammunition or reloading supplies!

It is also illegal for US citizens to export any reloading components across the border. For example it is technically a federal crime if you mailed me a single cast bullet or shotgun slug if you don't have an FFL. Homeland Security could arrest you. I doubt they would but they could. It is not illegal for me to bring said components into Canada though. I just can't do it from the States anymore which really put a crimp into my cross border shopping!

I am not sure about the legality of mailing loaded rounds both in Canada and in the States. I know people mail order powder down there so with HAZMAT papers that can be done and likely in Canada as well but across the border, I do not know.

I'll check it out. If I can mail some rounds to Tom Armbrust for pressure testing I'd like to do that.

Longbow

longbow

02-07-2019, 07:33 PM

Okay then, I finally got the 2 ball loads put together.

I loaded up 10 in CSD wads with paper wraps to snug the balls up some and 10 loaded up in Uniwads that Hogtame sent me to try for round balls. I didn't get very good results with round balls and had some left over so they are getting used now. The CSD wads are perfect depth for two 0.600" balls but slightly large diameter. I want to keep the RB's lined up so used some paper wrap to do it.

The Uniwads are a bit short and also slightly large diameter so I used a wrap of old shogun hull cut to suit and slightly longer than the shotcup.

I used 2 3/4" Federal plastic hulls with paper basewad, federal 209A primers (all we can get here right now) and 29 grs. (Lee dippers) of Blue Dot. This seems like a safe and sane load from researching heavy shot loads.

Now when the weather warms up just a bit I'll get these tested. Probably in a week.

Longbow

longbow

02-24-2019, 10:37 PM

I'll say it again... Yay ! I finally got to the range! (previously stated in the Brenneke'ized Lee slug thread).

I took out some Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and 10 of the 2 ball loads today and did some blasting.

Details:

- Gun: Mossberg Slugster with smoothbore barrel 18 1/2" long; cylinder bore; rifle sights
- Hulls: Federal Field hulls 2 3/4" with paper basewad
- Primer: Federal 209A
- Wad: CSD wad slit in 4 places and with 3 wraps of paper inside to snug up fit of 0.600" RB's
- Powder: Blue Dot at 29 grs.
- 2 x 0.600" RB's cast from ACWW
- roll crimped with over shot wad

25 meter groups were not bad I don't think but I had trouble at 50 meters due to the gun shooting about 1' high and a lack of targets. I traveled light this time as I had to haul everything up hill about 100 meters in the snow. The 50 meter target was already used for Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and I couldn't seem to get the 2 ball loads to hit where I was aiming so I have to guess groups were large and very high. Since the load did well at 25 meters I will try again and use a large target at 50 yards to catch the group.

As for shooting so high that is my fault. I recently filed the rear leaf a little wider and deeper to get a better sight picture, which it did, though I have to widen a bit more. Unfortunately I left the rear sight too high when I finished so that made things difficult and I didn't have a screwdriver to reset the sight! That traveling light thing. DOH!

Anyway, it seemed to me to be an impressive load with rather stout recoil but more or a push that rocked me back than a jab so tolerable. The intent is for bear protection and I suspect it is plenty good for that! I didn't chronograph but will be testing some more of these so once the snow is gone I'll haul the chronograph up the hill to the range.

Recovered CSD wads were in poor shape with distorted gas seals. One wad was shredded! I am guessing that the wads tried to wrap around the bottom ball as the damage is similar to what I saw when using larger round balls in shotcups with no nitro card wads or COW under the balls.

I didn't include a nitro card wad in these loads because not only didn't I have any that would fit the thick petal CSD wads but the two balls took up all the room there was. I should have put a small scoop of COW under the bottom ball though, just to fill in around the ball to keep the wad supported. Next time!

Target pics (all at 25 meters):

236777236778236779

I shot the 3 groups at 25 meters then tried at 50 meters but groups were high and large so no decent targets to post. Looking at the wads I am sure a better wad/wad support will improve things and likely give decent 50 meter groups... or at least tighten 25 meter groups and beyond a ways which is all that is required for a bear stopper load.

I shot some at a rock about 75 meters out and while the impact was high both balls seemed to be reasonably close together. I'll have to do some more work then test at 50 meters and beyond. Targets don't lie!

These 2 ball loads did well enough for me to want to load some more and try to better groups but I'd take these as is for what they are loaded for. I would also like to do some penetration testing to see how they fair against a Lee or other HB slug.

While recoil was substantial I do not think the load was near max. There was no sticky extraction or flattened primers. I'm pretty sure the powder charge could be safely increased as the payload is really more of a slug and about 625 grs. so based on payload weight the powder charge could be increased several grains. I will do some more research into equal payload recipes to see what I can find but this was no slouch load either! I'm sure it would leave a mark on a bear!

Longbow

Petander

02-26-2019, 05:27 PM

That's good,isn't it?

I'd be happy with such a small spread - I've done some 20 gauge double ball experiments but there seems to be a "stray ball" every now and then.

This whole slug thing is lots of fun really.

longbow

02-26-2019, 09:09 PM

At 25 meters the spread wasn't bad and certainly good enough for bear protection.

At 50 meters I couldn't get results because they shot over the target through the backing board but it was so full of holes I couldn't tell which were mine. I should have taken more targets! Next time I'll take a couple of large pieces of paper and aim at a target in the middle so I can get a better idea of spread at 50 meters.

It turns out I had inadvertently left my rear sight kinda high after filing the notch wider so that didn't help either!

The wads were in very bad shape though so I am sure that was detrimental to tight groups at longer ranges. I'll use something under the bottom ball next time. This load using CSD wads that had almost no cushion leg just allowed the two balls to fit and crimp properly. I could add a small scoop of COW to fill in around the bottom ball and that should support the wad. The gas seals had obviously try to wrap around the ball so were quite distorted and one wad was all shredded and burned.

While I am pretty sure the powder charge could be safely increased, this was not a mild load... judging from recoil anyway!

I'll do some more playing but I need some deep wads now before I load these again.

I'll focus on slugs in the mean time. Winter is grinding down now so weather will be better and snow up the hill to the range gone in a couple or three weeks so easier access. It really wasn't too bad but making three trips up and down that hill is no fun!

Yes, slugs and balls are fun!

Longbow

qwiksting

03-03-2019, 09:38 PM

Which CSD wads? I am getting back into it again. 2 .600 RB or 1 .600rb with #4 buckshot.

longbow

03-03-2019, 10:37 PM

Not sure to be honest! They were sent to me by Greg Sappington with a bunch of other stuff about 10 years ago. I've shot all now I think but will check. No big bag with info on it, just a zip lock bag with a few wads.

I have to think they are CSD 100's which are 1 oz. steel at 1.221" deep. Let's put it this way, two 0.600" RB's stacked perfectly in them for height so that would be 1.2".

I have to order everything in since there is nothing locally available so I don't get to go look and play with stuff before I buy it... or even buy and take it home to play with it. Just order and hope.

The hulls were range pick up Federal field hulls with paper basewad and with 29 grs. of Blue Dot they crimped well. I think I could up the charge by a few grains and still get a decent crimp but it would be nice to be able to put a nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup. Maybe a less bulky powder would allow a little heavier charge and leave a bit more room. Once again, I buy the powder that is available if and when it is available locally. The local gun shop doesn't stock any shotgun stuff but they have a few suitable powders. I can generally pick up Unique and Blue Dot.

There may be better combinations of powder, wad and hull but without access to look I don't know. This just happened to work out fairly well with what I had on hand. I'll be ordering more CSD wads to try again.

The wads were in poor shape with a couple in very bad shape so better support is needed. With these wads about all I can do is to put a scoop of COW under the bottom ball so it keeps the wad and gas seal form distorting around the ball. I should have for seen that coming as I have seen the same problem with round ball "slug" loads so use a nitro card wad and a scoop of COW under the ball. A deeper wad would help as then I could put a 1/8" 20 ga. nitro card wad on the bottom then a scoop of COW but that means a different powder to provide similar loading at less volume or go to 3" hulls.

They did well enough at 25 yards to be decent bear stoppers, I think, and that was the intent. Tighter groups would be better and extend the useful range though.

Longbow

Hogtamer

03-04-2019, 12:32 AM

Kent, try a 20 ga card glued in the bottom of the wad next to the powder and one in bottom of shot cup (that may take a 28 ga depending on taper) to eliminate the wad problem. I think that load is a better candidate for a 3" hull too.

longbow

03-04-2019, 09:00 PM

Hal:

I don't think there is room for the cards with the components and powder charge I have. I'd have to check on those wads but they are thick petal so it would be at least 20 ga. and maybe 28 ga. to fit a nitro card wad in the bottom.

I don't think I have any more of those CSD wads and even if I do it won't be many. I'll have to order more.

The two balls in that wad and powder charge fit well and allowed good crimp but I think all I can do is add a scoop of COW (okay... or grits) under the bottom ball. That may do it and I will try before making other changes. It seemed like a skookum load as is and handy being in a 2 3/4" hull. If I were to go 3" hull I'd likely go Tri-Ball but maybe not with quite the hefty powder charge James listed. Or maybe use 0.575" RB's to lighten the load just a bit. Mind you mass = penetration so... I wouldn't mind trying some two ball loads with 0.662" RB's. They fit tightly in CSD wads so should be a good fit to bore and no chance of wedging. That at modest velocity should still pack a punch.

If I need the nitro card wad under the bottom ball I will likely have to lower the powder charge, find a denser powder or go to 3" hulls. Certainly 3" hulls would allow more room for the payload with card wad under the bottom ball and a wad between balls too. But I think I would go with the 0.662" RB's in 3" hull. That would be a bit lighter payload than three 0.600" RB's but more mass in each ball. Might not be as effective as Tri-Ball at longer ranges but for bear protection at close range might be better with two bigger balls at same velocity.

The weather is starting to warm up here sort of... -10° C last night but only -1° C today. Pretty soon we'll be above freezing every day and snow will melt. It has been a long cold winter here. Global warming my....! Anyway, I'll be using that Slugster a little more soon. Still got things to try.

Longbow

Markopolo

03-05-2019, 10:47 AM

You need my washer wads I think... it’s just the ticket to make these things fly.

longbow

03-05-2019, 10:22 PM

If they are the ones I think they are they would be too thick... at least for the CSD wads I have and any deeper wad, I think I'd have to go to 3" hulls. The goal here was a two ball 2 3/4" hull load.

I'm not disappointed with the results so far either. With either better wads or better wad support they should do just fine and really for the intended purpose I think they did okay. Even if I don't get better longer range groups I'll load some more and do some penetration testing to see how they compare to larger slugs/balls.

I should shoot some through the chronograph too and see what sort of velocity I am getting. If 1200 FPS or better then they will probably be pretty effective. A 0.678" RB at 1500/1600 FPS is going to penetrate better though. However, if they do well enough to inspire confidence in me that's good enough... for me.

True enough, for bear stoppers why not 3" hulls? Well, I wanted to see what two balls in 2 3/4" hulls would do mostly. And two 0.600" balls scooting along are a formidable projectile(s). That and less recoil = faster recovery time if needed.

Longbow

Markopolo

03-05-2019, 10:47 PM

This is what I was gunna PM you before I received that your PM storage is FULL.. time to clean house..

Have you considered what might happen with 3in hulls?? Why not give it a try just to see why not? If you playing with your balls anyway, why not load a few in 3in while your loadin the others? What if you stumble upon a “wow” load while looking for that 2 3/4 load? Just saying. I would throw some of them washer wads in a envelope for you and gladly drop them in the mail when I go to town on Friday..... all I need is your address....

Mark

Drm50

03-05-2019, 11:33 PM

We had a local fooling around with ball & multi ball loads in 23/4" & 3". He blew a Moss when his wad system caused some kind of wedging effect and forced the bolt lock to tear out top of action. Barrel was not damaged.

longbow

03-06-2019, 01:04 AM

Mark:

If you would let me know what those wads are I can order from BPI. I have to get an order in anyway. If they are the "gas seal" with the hole they are pretty thick though they would work as a donut wad in deeper hulls.

Yup! Better clean out some PM's I guess!

Drm50:

Yes, this was a concern raised by people loading Tri-Ball loads per Dixie instructions ~ to use hardened balls and buffer to stop the wedging action. The two ball load I put together is different in that I used a sleeve inside the CSD wad to keep both balls directly stacked in line so they cannot wedge. Yes, I am sure there is some give when booted in the butt by 10,000 PSI but the balls are essentially in line so very little wedging action. Not saying it couldn't happen but I think not. I do appreciate the concern and warning though.

Longbow

Markopolo

03-06-2019, 02:27 PM

This is them LB..
237479

237480

Not sure what they are called anymore... bought a bag of 500 I believe 8 years ago... don’t have the bag... they are gas seal. And did come from BPI...

Found them...Here they are... 237483

And the Link...
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB12-12ga-x-8mm-Wad-Base-250_bag/productinfo/072HB12/

Hope this all helps... make them things group and fly..

longbow

03-06-2019, 08:51 PM

Yup! I think you showed me those before. Those are the same "gas seals" (gas seal with a hole?) I tried to order about 3 years ago from the Canadian BPI rep to use on some Brenneke'ized slugs. he could figure out what they were for some reason and I got distracted with family issues so never completed that order.

I think those are only available in 12 ga. full bore and 20 ga. I doubt the 20 ga. would fit in the bottom of a CSD wad which was my goal with 2 ball loads. Plus they are pretty thick.

Now if I could cut some ABS pipe or some form of plastic tube to use a s a split sleeve/sabot for full bore with two 0.600" RB's in it and on top of one of those that might work. There's all sorts of stuff a guy can do if he machines everything but it is time consuming and I am lazy!

By the way, thanks for the offer I do appreciate it. I can order from Alberta though so easier all around... if Will can figure out what they are anyway.

I'll order some CSD wads, full bore felt wads and a few other things shortly. I may add some of those to the list to give them a try. I still like the idea for an attached wad to Brenneke like slug similar to what Uncle Dino has done with his swaged slugs. That was my intent when I first saw those 3 or 4 years ago.

I'd like to play with the two ball loads some more or even Tri-Ball loads. What's a little more recoil induced brain damage going to harm anyway... wait... what was I saying?

Longbow

Drakehammer

03-08-2019, 10:29 AM

Here’s my .60 cal Tri-Ball load shot yesterday at 40 yards. Very similar to the Dixie recipes that are floating around out there. I just recommend you follow suggestions very closely as they really matter. Good luck. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/585ede6a13f97d8452909f4fecf54b57.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/440a8b120a840fc86d56fd5101ccd6e0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/e127b1138e6586feeb16d39b4b62e856.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/7cdc08ab8508bf095629ec5cbe263990.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Markopolo

03-08-2019, 10:46 AM

Whooooooaaaaaaaa there Drake... ok, we see you got them shooting... wads look pretty good too.. nice groupings.... but you can’t just throw them pics down and walk away!!!! More INPUT Needed.... tell tell!!! Details.. Gun and Choke, powder and colum, and shell... ..

Pleaseeeeeee Marko

Drakehammer

03-08-2019, 11:04 AM

Lol. I posted some info on a separate thread. Tried to post last night but I was unsuccessful attaching pics until I connected through Tapatalk.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Drakehammer

03-08-2019, 11:15 AM

Marko I load a lot of buckshot, steel, and tungsten (TSS, HW-15, etc) so I’m pretty familiar with the heavy duty wad selection out there, including the CSD series. I will say that CSD series is probably the thinnest and weakest of the bunch. As far as current production, the TUPRW series from Precision Reloading is the toughest wad available in my opinion. Thats what Dixie recommends, and I concur. I will work on a 2 3/4” Di-Ball load today or tomorrow.

6pt-sika

03-08-2019, 11:20 AM

Something else too... it turns out that 0.882" RB's and some of my home made slugs are perfect fit into CSD wads and cut down some they may make an decent Brenneke like slug.

I might be missing something but isn't .882" a misprint ? I wouldn't shoot a .882" roundball thru a 10 gauge and more then likely not even an 8 gauge .

Drakehammer

03-08-2019, 11:28 AM

I might be missing something but isn't .882" a misprint ? I wouldn't shoot a .882" roundball thru a 10 gauge and more then likely not even an 8 gauge .

Agreed. I think .682 was intended.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

longbow

03-08-2019, 08:30 PM

Yeah, sorry... poor keyboard skills. Should read 0.662" (16 ga. nominal ball), not 0.882". That would be a tight fit (extruded fit?) in a 12 ga.

I bought several Lyman moulds some years ago from TOW: 0.662", 0.715". 0.735" I already had 0.690" and have since bought a 0.678" so have the 12 ga. round balls "surrounded" for single ball loads.

The 0.662" RB's might make a decent 2 ball load for 3" hulls. That's 0.662" not 0.882" RB's... yup, I checked this time... 0.662". I get it right sometimes!

Overall, not sure if a 2 ball load would be as effective as Tri-Ball but like I said, 2 larger balls carry more weight each to should provide better penetration for a given velocity and at same velocity as Tri-Ball should pack a little less recoil. That is my logic anyway.

For 2 3/4" hulls I think 0.600" or close is about the limit. There are moulds available in 0.610" and, I think 0.620", that might fit and every bit of extra weight is a bonus. Much more diameter = more length so I think you'd be into a 3" hull.

0.662" RB's are a tight fit into a CSD wad so would stack well for a 3" hull and wedging shouldn't be an issue. Even if they expanded a bit the thick petals shoul dgive some.

Just thoughts as yet untested.

Longbow

EVR

04-01-2019, 04:54 PM

I want in on this one.

I'm curious about AA and STS/Gun Club hulls and 2-ball loads.

Like you longbow I was finagling around with some PVC pipe and got to thinking a piece sawed in half might cradle a 2-ball load and keep them from wedging.

longbow

04-01-2019, 08:07 PM

I am hoping to be playing with this some more shortly. Kinda went back to slugs for a bit because I have what I need. Got to order wads for the 2 ball and Tri-Ball loads.

Not sure why I didn't follow James' advice on the Tri-Ball style wads from Precision Reloading. He said they are the only ones that hold up for Tri-Ball loads. I'm sure they make different depth shotcups but even if not I can trim petals to suit 2 3/4" hulls for 2 x 0.600" RB's. What I had on hand were a few CSD wads so I went with those. I was pretty impressed with what I got even though it wasn't spectacular, but for a first try it seemed pretty decent and for bear protection out to 25 or maybe 30 yards I'm thinking pretty effective.

I would like to try 2 x 0.662" RB's in 3" hulls too. If those stay close enough together (say 6" or so) out to 50 yards or so they'd be devastating.

Have you looked at the SIARM site in Europe? Not sure what country they are in or based in but they have 2 ball carriers. I tried their contact form to see if they ship to Canada but got no response. i'll have to try again.

I'm thinking that instead of the Dixie recipe using buffer, it makes more sense to me to use a wrap of paper, Teflon, Mylar or whatever to fill the space so the balls line up over each other and don't wedge. The only benefit I can see for letting them wedge is that the payload might be a bit shorter.

I used... what did I say... 3 wraps or 4 wraps of paper then slit it through the petal slits using a razor knife. Pretty quick and easy and it worked. Makes a bit of confetti mess but works.

Once I get my stuff together I'll try again.

Longbow

EVR

04-19-2019, 09:09 AM

OK:

So I cast 214 Lee .600's. Used newspaper to roll into "sabots" fitting inside WAA12R wads and loaded in AA hulls over Longshot powder, using a powder charge for 1 1/2 oz payload. Compressed the wad in order to obtain max "storage space" inside the hull. Fired 3 rounds at 40 meters.

1} payload was still too long and assembled rounds were undercrimped {crimp would not fully close}
2} pattern was non-existent. I saved the target and was going to post but there's no reason. First shot put two balls within about 8 inches. 2nd and 3rd shots placed on hole on an approximately 20"x20" piece of cardboard.

Results are so bad at this point I don't see any reason to continue with that method at all. In first place, the balls simply do not fit the hulls with that wad, so something entirely different deeds to be worked out.

I welcome all suggestions...

lrdg

04-19-2019, 09:39 AM

Didn't some of the old timers cast piano wire into both balls tying them together to keep ball spread and penetration to a minimum?

Sounds like cannon "Chain Shot" or "Bar Shot".

longbow

04-19-2019, 10:35 AM

I'd have to say wad problems.

I used the last of the CSD wads I had and have to order new wads. These CSD wads were deep and really no cushion leg, just a bit of a spacer. I should have put a small nitro card wad under the ball but didn't because not only didn't I have any small enough (28 ga. maybe?) but the bottom of the cup is very rounded. However, recovered wads showed blown gas seals and distorted wad.

My groups/patterns weren't bad for what I shot and I think showed promise so I'll be doing this again when I get time. Got three archery shoots coming up so haven't gotten back to this yet but will.

I am thinking that like the Dixie Tri-Ball loads the wads take a beating. James said not to use any wads except the Precision Reloading wad http://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!l=TUPR&i=W123 as they just wouldn't stand up.

I am not sure why the wad makes such a difference when pressures are within normal ranges but apparently they do.

If you haven't read the Tri-Ball threads you should. People have tried other things and posted results but it seems that James was right on the wads. What I don't like about the Tri-Ball recipe is the buffer... but that's just me. The purpose is to keep the balls stacked and from wedging by supporting them but it seems to me that with a cylinder bore a wrap with paper or Teflon or other plastic will do that and since no choke no need to worry about squeezing through a choke though I think Teflon would do that too. Just untried opinion on my p[art though.

What did your recovered wads look like? I am guessing the cushion leg crushed unevenly and gas seals may have blown. I found out how that works when loading 0.735" RB's. If I used a shotcup with petals cut off under the ball the top face (bottom of the shotcup) would be badly distorted and often cracked because the wad tries to extrude itself around the ball without the support of a nitro card wad or two. Same with loading 0.662" or 0.678" balls in shotcups. Without that nitro card wad wads often fail... at least with any I tried. I always add a nitro card wad under RB's... except for this two ball load but it'll get one next time.

Next time out I'll be using the TUPRW123 wads and support under my bottom ball.

Something else I'd like to try but not sure if they will ship to Canada is:

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_20_164_60&products_id=2037&osCsid=rd34e4tl0523l1oa5t6scfkif0

The two ball wad/sabot at the top of the page. They do them in three ball two. That should solve a lot of problems if available! I e-mailed them but got no response. I'll try again.

If the two ball load doesn't work for you try the Tri-Ball load as it is a proven performer. I just wanted to try a slightly less brain jarring two ball load for 2 3/4" hulls.

Longbow

Petander

04-20-2019, 07:35 AM

That wad looks very interesting,thanks for the tip Longbow.

Siarm seems to be out of stock,though.

240128.

Siarm is in Italy and most probably ships anywhere you like. If not, I can help with the wads when they have them again. I have ordered from then a couple of times.

dsh1106

04-20-2019, 08:06 AM

dsh1106

04-20-2019, 08:08 AM

Here's another video from TAOFLEDERMAUS
12 gauge 2 ball load, it's larger than .600s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RhoBWXXVo

EVR

04-20-2019, 08:55 AM

I'd have to say wad problems.

Basically, I agree.

What did your recovered wads look like?

I didn't fetch them as I was heading out to shoot some bait and frankly, because the load was a poor fit, didn't care much.

I am guessing the cushion leg crushed unevenly and gas seals may have blown.

That makes a lot of sense. There is lots of support, but as you suggest, it seems to be in the wrong areas...too much as it turns out as they are too thick to handle 2 .600's inside the AA hull and maybe not hard enough to support the ball.

I always add a nitro card wad under RB's... except for this two ball load but it'll get one next time.

The stack is already too thick, so it's back to the drawing board for me.

Next time out I'll be using the TUPRW123 wads and support under my bottom ball.

Is this wad compatible with the tapered AA hull in some sort of known small-shot load?

If the two ball load doesn't work for you try the Tri-Ball load as it is a proven performer. I just wanted to try a slightly less brain jarring two ball load for 2 3/4" hulls.

My goal is a standard recoil 2 3/4 inch shell using the AA hull. That's the goal, anyhow. I figured I'd try to assemble something that has SOME amount of potential using standard components and charge then send off for pressure testing. Not really sure if it is possible w/ the AA hull. Might place a call to BPI next week.

Longbow

Thanks for the input. Amazing how complicated something like this can be.

The Warwolf stuff looks good but I really want a medium recoil .600 ball load. I am itching for a hunting load as I retired shotguns for home defense years ago. So I have some accuracy requirements that need to be taken into consideration, too. If HD was the only thing I was concerned with the 15-foot +- distances involved would place a pretty low demand on that.

Markopolo

04-20-2019, 10:07 AM

Yikes.... them warwolf rounds looked effective, but recoil from hel... how do you get back on target from something like that... but with over 2oz of lead, hopefully you wouldn’t need to...

longbow

04-20-2019, 10:51 AM

Not sure about tapered hulls like Win AA and those wads. Like I said, I suggest reading some of the Tri-Ball load threads and follow those recipes/components but reduced to suit 2 3/4" hulls.

My load was quite sane and safe and performed not badly but the wads did look a little beaten up with some blown gas seals so a tougher wad is in order. Those were CSD steel shot wads. They are deep thick cup with almost no cushion leg so room for the 2 balls.

Those WW AA12R wads you tried have too long a cushion leg and aren't a tough enough wad. I had poor results shooting any type of wad slug using WW AA reds. Lots of gas seal failures and the plastic seems "soft".

For these heavy two and 3 ball loads I think steel shot wads are the best approach and that is what the TUPR W123 wad James recommended is. They are tougher wads and thicker petals so not as much room around the balls as standard wads.

I'll have to re-watch the Taofledermaus video on those 2 ball loads. IIRC they are 0.690" RB's? Substantial anyway! After shooting the 2 balls of 0.600" with a not particularly heavy powder charge I'd think recoil of heavier balls or Tri-Balls must be quite something!

James' approach was to use buffer and a tight choke to get nice groups with Tri-Ball and I'll bet with 2 large balls of around 0.680"/0.690" wedging wouldn't be an issue, and if naked, they'd go through a full choke. They might be fairly easy to get to group together. It's just that huge payload is going to bring recoil with it!

I think I'll stick with the 2 ball loads.

Petander:

I'll try contacting SIARM again. They didn't respond last time. If I don't get a response I may take you up on your offer! I'd like to get some 2 and some 3 ball wads/sabots to try out.

Longbow

Barry54

05-13-2024, 03:27 PM

I’m intentionally reviving this thread...

A thought I had while reading this thread is mismatched ball sizes for the tuprw12 wads. Use a .575-.600” on the bottom and a slightly larger upper ball, to fit better with the taper of the steel shot wad.

Barry54

05-13-2024, 04:22 PM

326554

Tuprw12 wad with three 0.600” balls inside.
Looking like either the three inch for the tri-ball load or the 2-3/4” wad will need to be trimmed up using two balls in a 2-3/4” load

longbow

05-13-2024, 05:00 PM

Barry54

05-13-2024, 05:06 PM

I found some 1-1/2 ounce lead shot loads in the BPI Advantages manual, 6th edition, using the MM1275 wads which look similar to the TUPRW12 wads with Blue Dot and Longshot that could be used as a starting point.

Interestingly enough, the 10th edition omits all the 1-1/2 ounce 2-3/4” loads.

The similarities may only be a steel shot wad with no cushion section and a cupped bottom, but I’m game to try some.

The BPI recipe calls for a 20 gauge 1/8” cork wad in the bottom of the shot cup. I’ve about pulled what’s left of my hair out, trying to situate those squarely with attempts at making turkey loads.

As far as 0.600” double ball loads, I think any sort of cushion wad between the bottom ball and wad is a bad idea. Seems like a way to give the wad a “running start” and blow the wad around the balls. Maybe with two balls instead of three, the forces aren’t as severe? Personally, I’ve recovered the correct wad recommended in the tri-ball recipe, and the bottom of the wad cup was stretched a bit.

Barry54

05-13-2024, 05:12 PM

Barry:

I had sort of forgotten about this thread... not that I had tried two ball loads and the wads weren't great but Siarm not contacting me. They have some interesting ball carriers for two and three balls.

I should try again!

You should look at their site. It is an Italian outfit with quite a selection of components.

Longbow

I have been looking at the website already. I’m concerned about their pricing. Possibly the decimal point needs to move one place to the right? $3.50 doesn’t seem like correct pricing for 100 wads.

Barry54

05-14-2024, 09:36 PM

326574

Well I’m not sure what contributed more to wad failure?

I used a BPI multi metal wad cut down instead of the Precision Reloading wad. Secondly the stack was too short so I tried a flex seal with a slight cushion section underneath one load which pooched out the crimp some. So load two got an X12X gas seal underneath which crimped great.

For testing I chose a 3-1/2” chamber so it’s rated to handle a smidge more pressure. I felt a little better with this slightly greater safety margin, since I deviated by adding the seal underneath the wad in the recipe. I will add that these were in some 3” and 3.5” load recipes. So they are called to be stacked elsewhere, just not in a 2-3/4” load.

So here’s the other suspect for wad failure. The shotgun is backbored/over bored and practically a 10 gauge barrel. So this may have significantly added to wad failure. They look like they rolled wrong side out. This theory could be tested by a tri-ball load and check for wad failure.

As far as shooting, they hit the full size plate with authority and recoil was acceptable. The two ball load is definitely worth persuing if they work out in cheap 2-3/4” hulls.

So next tests.
Roll crimp and no spacer wad?
Nitro cards as a spacer?

longbow

05-14-2024, 10:14 PM

You are using a filler under the balls right?

With the small 0.600" balls you may need a wrap or sleeve around them if they are loose in the wad. Partly to keep them in line but also to keep them centered in the shotcup. If the bottom ball is off center that may result in the gas seal tipping.

My plan has been to wrap some parchment paper around a dowel or rod of the right diameter for the 0.600" RB's then wrap wood glue soaked paper strips spiraled one way then sprialed the other way to make a stiff tube to fill from wad petals to balls then once removed from the dowel slit in half lengthwise. I have made the paper tubes and it works well I just haven't loaded up any rounds this way yet.

I have been tied up with archery stuff lately and am going to a shoot next weekend but once I get back I have to get to the gun range to shoot slugs and an 1881 Marlin then I will see if I can get going on the two ball loads again. I am sure we will come up with a solution!

Longbow