45-70 for competition?

[Thundermaker]

I've wanted a sharps for as long as I could remember, but I never broke down and got one...until now.

It's a pedersoli 1874 sharps imported by Navy Arms, with double set triggers and 28" Heavy (with a capital H) octagonal barrel chambered in 45/70.

I'm thinking about trying out the 700 yard silhouette (funny word to spell) matches that the River Bend gun club puts on. Eventually I'd like to go to 1000 yards. The question is, will 45/70 get me there, or do I need to have it reamed out to something like 45/90 or 45/110? Some say 45/70 wins matches. Others say it's iffy past 500. I haven't bought any dies or brass yet.

I've been reading up here and on the bpcr.net forums. Here's what I'm getting so far. You guys tell me if I'm way off base:

-GG bullets are out in the 45/70. In order to get enough black powder in the case to get the velocities required, I'll need to use soft bullets patched to bore diameter and seated long. That is unless this rifle turns out to have freebore, in which case I'd be better off reaming it to a longer cartridge to get rid of that, as it does more harm than good.

-a cupped base bullet with a twisted tail will be best for a bore dia. pp because it will upset more readily.

Am I on the right track, or am I way off? Do I have enough barrel at 28"?

[ian45662]

River bend as in the river bend in dawsonville Georgia? Flat base bullets will bump up just fine. Most competitors that I know of (myself included) are shooting flat based bore diameter bullets and are using the Hyde method for the base which means the paper is basically just folded over the base. Your rifle will Likely have some freebore. You may be best suited with a dual diameter pp bullet. I have absolutely 0
Experience with that but there are some in here that do.


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[Thundermaker]

Yes, that river bend.

[ian45662]

Are you going to the shoot this month? I have never heard of them having a 700 yard silly wet match. I know they have the standard nra bpcr silly wet and a mid range paper match that goes out to 600. I am planning on going. This will kick off my 2019 bpcr silhouette season.


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[Don McDowell]

Grease groove bullets in a 45-70 can shoot to 1000 yards, but past 800 there are better cartridges.
Going with paper patch is a good thing, but the twisted tails will likely kill any serious accuracy, and cupped base bullets are a real pain to cast and get and keep good bases.
For your silhouette shooting something like the .446 525 money bullet cast from 16-1 will work just fine, and it might even do fair as far as 1000.

[Thundermaker]

Are you going to the shoot this month? I have never heard of them having a 700 yard silly wet match. I know they have the standard nra bpcr silly wet and a mid range paper match that goes out to 600. I am planning on going. This will kick off my 2019 bpcr silhouette season.


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I might. I'll have to see what my schedule looks like. Dawsonville is a long way from here.

[Thundermaker]

Grease groove bullets in a 45-70 can shoot to 1000 yards, but past 800 there are better cartridges.
Going with paper patch is a good thing, but the twisted tails will likely kill any serious accuracy, and cupped base bullets are a real pain to cast and get and keep good bases.
For your silhouette shooting something like the .446 525 money bullet cast from 16-1 will work just fine, and it might even do fair as far as 1000.

That is another thing. I don't know if I want to cast or swage. I can get corbin R-series dies for my rockchucker for not much more than a good custom mold.

[ian45662]

I hear ya. It’s about a 7 hour drive for me. I’ll tell ya a good greaser load that the pedersoli I had liked. It seemed to shoot its best groups with the saeco 881 bullet. It’s a copy of the 500 grain govt bullet. I seated it out far enough so the front driving band was touching the lands. That would leave a lube groove showing. The powder charge was 72 grains of goex 2F. I can’t remember if it was a .03 or .06 veggie wad. The bullet was cast from 20:1 and the primer was cci br2. The cases were fireformed and no neck tension at all was used.


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[Thundermaker]

I guess one thing I need to do is revisit my copy of Paul A. Matthews' book "40 years with the 45/70". A lot of it is dedicated to bpcr competition loads IIRC.

Now that I think of it, I think there's weight limit. The rifle might be too heavy, and I'll have to rebarrel it anyway. That begs the question, what's a good 1000 yard caliber that doesn't use $20 a piece brass?

You were right, Ian. The silhouette goes to 500.

[Don McDowell]

That is another thing. I don't know if I want to cast or swage. I can get corbin R-series dies for my rockchucker for not much more than a good custom mold.

Those swaging dies won't do a hard slug that is needed for accurate shooting for competition.
Buy a quality mould and a supply of 16-1 alloy.

[country gent]

I would recommend Loading and Shooting the Paper Patched Bullet, A Beginners Guide by Wright. Its very good and very informative.

[Gunlaker]

There are a few people who are doing quite well shooting a .45-70 for long range with grease grooved bullets so don't count it out entirely. A good bullet with reduced driving bands and Swiss FFFg is what you'd want to look at. Not necessary for silhouette though.

Chris.

[country gent]

It takes a little more effort in wrapping but I have found with my brooks cup base PP bullet no tail is best for accuracy. In 45 caliber I leave about .180 overhang on of the patch to the base. Wrap tight and fold over hang under. this leaves a small circle of lead showing and a very flat even base. Patches look and hold very good. I also noticed that the flat patches were recovered closer to the muzzle than the same bullet with tail by about 5 feet.

When wrapping in this manner I use thumb and 2 fingers roll bullet with base between then and slowly fold over the base. this give very consistent creases and a very flat true base. bullet wrapped like this sit very square I the base.

[Deadeye Bly]

I shoot at River Bend at least once a year and sometime twice. The silhouette range is 500 meters maximum(547 yds.) The mid range has a maximum 600 yard range. There is no range there longer than that. Your 45/70 will be fine for shooting there. I shoot greasers and Ian shoots paper patch. Some of each type shooter competes at River Bend. Go there and get started and learn as you go. There are lots of folks there to give you guidance. I shot my 45/70 trapdoor in mid-range there a year ago in Woody's trapdoor challenge and beat them soundly shooting 60 grains 1 1/2F Swiss and a 535 gr. greaser bullet. It had sufficient velocity and accuracy for the task. By the way, I bought the mold from Ian.

Some people shoot the 45/70 to 1000 yards and do well with it but they have put in the time and effort to make it work. It is not as easy to get it working at long range as the longer cases but it can be done. If it is what you've got then use it to it's potential.

I started shooting BPCR silhouette with a 28" barreled 45/70. I have shot scores as high as 30 with that rifle in a 40 shot match. You lose a bit of velocity but probably not more than 25-30 fps than with a 30" barrel. As I said, go get started and enjoy the journey wherever it takes you.

[kokomokid]

Last year was my first in BPTR Creedmoor and I finished 15th of 33 at 1000yds and was happy with it in the dreadful conditions. My shooting partner finished 8th at 1000. Both of us shot 45-70. You may find fouling control and a good spotter to make a big difference.

[R. Dupraz]

Thundermaker:

I have a 45x2.4/45-90 Shiloh Sharps "74" that I used to compete in BPC mid range, silhouette and long range gong 1000 yd. matches. mostly long range gong. And have seen the 45-70 do some good work in all those matches before I quit shooting. It has been in the safe for quite a while now and just take it out every now and then for the fun of it.

This rifle doesn't have much of a throat and used both grease groove and paper patched. Both bullets at 550 grains ea. I patched the smooth bullet with two wraps so that it would just slide up the bore with some resistance with the powder and wad colume long enough and case sizing just enough so that the patched bullet could be seated in the case by thumb pressure only about 1/4" and not fall out. Paper just folded over the edge of the flat based bullet. The idea being to shove as much of that bullet up the bore as was possible. Shot very well that way with the PP bullet out shooting the grease groove every time. Patched to bore diameter with the real black powder of course.


Don't sell that old 45-70 too short right now, Why not give it an honest workout for what you want to do first and see what happens. You can always have it barreled. Also, keep in mind that with more case capacity comes more recoil.

Not trying to convince you of anything, just giving you more information to consider.

Google Army Sandy Hook 45-70 for an interesting read if you haven't already seen it.

[Thundermaker]

Read that sandy hook article years ago. I need to revisit it.

[Thundermaker]

Little update. I've had a chance to look the rifle over and check the rifling twist, as the original owner couldn't tell me what it was. By my measurements, it's 1:17 3/4". So that's a good thing. As I was running the patch, I didn't feel any rough patches or tight spots. Now I just need to get a chamber and throat cast to see what bullet diameters I'll be working with. I plan to work up two loads for this rifle. One will be a heavy pp bp match load. The other will be a smokeless load with a lighter (relative terms) GG bullet for plinking (or should I say "clanging"?).

[BrentD]

Thundermaker,
the .45-70 with paper patched bullets, done correctly, is THE PREMIER 1000 yds cartridge. It is also just as good at silhouette. If you need proof, it can be provided, but suffice it to say, the .45-70 with paper patches has won far more matches than any other .45 with paper patches.

As for the swaging vs casting issue, I have done both extensively. For many years, I swaged with Richard and Dave Corbin presses and dies. Then I finally succumbed to casting and it is better, by far. Cheaper, faster (MUCH), and you won't leave a single point on the range because you chose casting. The quality of moulds today is amazing. I would recommend a specific BACO mould for your rifle, depending on what the diameter across the lands turns out to be.

About the only thing that a .45-70 with paper patches does not do well is to shoot multiple shots rapidly, but even there, things can be done to make it better than you might think.

[Boz330]

There is a lot of good info above from very knowledgeable people. I'm shooting a Pedersoli with PP and here is what I discovered. My first attempts with PP were terrible accuracy wise. The Pedersoli has a longer than standard chamber 2.129 instead of 2.100. With the bore size PP boolit the back of the boolit would bump up in the gap between the end of the chamber and end of standard brass cutting the back off of the PP and pushing the boolit on through. I got some 45-90 brass and cut it down to fit the chamber and Viola great accuracy.
We have a limited number of long range matches around us but we do have one 1200yd match and I have used the 45-70 out that far and have beaten 45-90s so I don't feel handicapped by it. This is my first year shooting PP in a cartridge rifle although I have used it in my Gibbs ML for several years.
Prior to this year I was shooting GG boolits for those matches. At 1000yd the PP boolit shoots 10 MOA flatter than the GG. I can get 76gr of Old Eynsford 2F in the case with about .180 of compression and .250 of the boolit base in the case.

Bob

[Thundermaker]

There is a lot of good info above from very knowledgeable people. I'm shooting a Pedersoli with PP and here is what I discovered. My first attempts with PP were terrible accuracy wise. The Pedersoli has a longer than standard chamber 2.129 instead of 2.100. With the bore size PP boolit the back of the boolit would bump up in the gap between the end of the chamber and end of standard brass cutting the back off of the PP and pushing the boolit on through. I got some 45-90 brass and cut it down to fit the chamber and Viola great accuracy.
We have a limited number of long range matches around us but we do have one 1200yd match and I have used the 45-70 out that far and have beaten 45-90s so I don't feel handicapped by it. This is my first year shooting PP in a cartridge rifle although I have used it in my Gibbs ML for several years.
Prior to this year I was shooting GG boolits for those matches. At 1000yd the PP boolit shoots 10 MOA flatter than the GG. I can get 76gr of Old Eynsford 2F in the case with about .180 of compression and .250 of the boolit base in the case.

Bob

Thanks. Good info. If it does turn out to have a long chamber, I'll probably just have it reamed to 45/90. If I'm going to have to buy 45/90 brass, I might as well shoot 45/90. I guess I'll just have to play with it and see.

[Lead pot]

That is another thing. I don't know if I want to cast or swage. I can get corbin R-series dies for my rockchucker for not much more than a good custom mold.

The R dies will not do the job in a Rockchucker, they barely will do a soft pistol bullet. I still have C&H pistol dies on the shelf and they barely did those.
I have two Corbin presses Daves and Richard's and several boxes of dies for each. Yes they swage a fine heavy bullet but like Brent said the moulds you can get now days will cast a bullet every bit as good as a swaged. My swage presses just sit and collect dust.
As far as the .45-70 caliber doing the job give it a chance and you will find out that it will get the job done, and later on if you feel you need a larger caliber this can be fixed by renting a throating reamer or buying one for less than $100 and yo can use a T handle if you don't have a lathe and make it even into a .45-120, but I will suggest stoping at a 2.4/.45-90.

[Thundermaker]

At 1000yd the PP boolit shoots 10 MOA flatter than the GG.

10 MOA!? I just realized, that's over 100 inches! That works out to 8 feet 4 inches! It really makes that much of a difference!?

[rfd]

... I can get 76gr of Old Eynsford 2F in the case with about .180 of compression and .250 of the boolit base in the case.

Bob

have you tried seating at .100 and getting more powder in the case?

[Thundermaker]

So. If cast is just as good or better than swaged, here's another question. Nose pour or base pour?

[Don McDowell]

Base pour if you figure out what length of bullet you want to use. Nose pour if you want to play with the length to see what your rifle will shoot the best.

[Boz330]

have you tried seating at .100 and getting more powder in the case?

Shoots so good I didn't see the point although I can get 79gr in the case. Beside around here there are few places and matches past mid range. Most 1000yd matches are 8+ hours drive from me.

Bob

[ian45662]

You don’t want to try shooting it first before you make it a 90?


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[rfd]

Thanks. Good info. If it does turn out to have a long chamber, I'll probably just have it reamed to 45/90. If I'm going to have to buy 45/90 brass, I might as well shoot 45/90. I guess I'll just have to play with it and see.

i would suggest, that since yer a newbie of sorts to these kinda of guns, take the time to load and shoot it as it is. another thought is that loading PPB cartridges will yield a virtual .45-90 because instead of 70 grains of powder charge you'll get in excess of 80 grains. my current .45-70 PPB load is 83 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under a 523 grain slick, and that's with only .060" compression and a single .062" LDPE wad. my sharps' chamber has a custom, tight PPB ream, which actually means at a maximum powder charge it'll have less powder than with a standard .45-70 gov't ream. take yer time and get to know yer gun; and more importantly, how to best load for it.

[Randy C]

You need to take that gun to the matches, you can load smokeless the guys here shoot Accurate 5744 if your set up to reload. They will get you going from there the people there will teach you what to do and you can switch to Black powder, you don't have to paper patch That takes a lot of time when loading to shoot matches, once you start loading for matches you will not enjoy the marathon loading session, that's a lot of bullets to load. Black powder takes longer then smokeless in every aspect. I would hope your barrel is good to go mine was and could shoot like a tack. I checked it with a bore scope,,,the rife-ling was bad in my barrel so I had a 34" Krieger put on it by C Sharps the turn around time was fast.

I shoot Goex . I bought it many years ago from Coonie's Explosives & Black Powder Inc. Its best to cast your own bullets You can buy them ready to load if your using smokeless. Every body here has good advice you need to get loading and shooting, you have to build a log for your sights wright it down take a picture of it so you don't loose it or for get it at home, Ive done that. They don't allow gas checks here, at Tressel Valley long shots. in ND. I shoot with them.

I shoot a 440gr chicken bullet 545gr silhouette bullet and a 575gr NASA bullet the first 2 would work good for you, my moulds are from Old West Bullet Moulds
Bernie will walk you through what you need he has a web sight. You can spend a fortune to get everything, then try and learn what and what not to-do its fun but if you buy bullets and start loading smokeless you will be ahead of the game, and pick the rest up as you meet people.
233565233566

[Randy C]

That NASA BULLET works good in a long chamber. it works good in 4570 brass. You may be able to buy some and see how they shoot.
You wont know if its going to led up unless you try it.

[Randy C]

rfd I'm interested in what and how you load/shoot your chamber. I had a new 34" Krieger put on 4570 sharps it has a standard 2.10 inch chamber. I was going to experiment this year, This chamber is tighter then my last the Nasa bullet don't fit its to long. if you have time send me some info, I don't want to go off subject here unless you think it will help him. I shoot GOEX cartridge grade.
or Boz330 info requested on your load.

Thank you for the pm and the links rfd

[Randy C]

I hope your a big boy or you can take a punch 45-90 kicks so does the 45-110,,:shock:

[Boz330]

rfd I'm interested in what and how you load/shoot your chamber. I had a new 34" Krieger put on 4570 sharps it has a standard 2.10 inch chamber. I was going to experiment this year, This chamber is tighter then my last the Nasa bullet don't fit its to long. if you have time send me some info, I don't want to go off subject here unless you think it will help him. I shoot GOEX cartridge grade.
or Boz330 info requested on your load.

Thank you for the pm and the links rfd

Randy, I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for but for the paper patch load I fire formed the Starline 45-90 cases and then trimmed to 2.129. I neck size the case with a Lyman die. I use lg pistol primers with .006 primer wad in the bottom of the case. 76gr of Old Eynsford 2F, .060 poly wad and compress to give me .250 of the boolit in the case. The boolit is 535gr and of a design that a buddy of mine came up with formed in a pound die. After patching it is .450 and a slip fit in the case which I put a slight taper crimp on so the boolit doesn't fall out of it's own weight. After firing I run one damp patch and a dry patch through the bore.
My GG load is the same except that I use a Leeth-Gordon 545gr boolit and is about .001 interference fit in the neck sized case. I use WW cases but the fact that they are short of the chamber length doesn't seem to make any difference. For a mid range load with less recoil I drop back to 68gr of OE 2F.

Bob

[country gent]

Randy, The nasa is designed to load long and fit in the bore. I shoot them in 38 55 and 40 65. the nose should just slide in the bore with size to size or only a couple thousandths clearance. I would try the nose in the muzzle for a quick test and better would be to mike the nose and pin gage the bore at the chamber end. You may need to get a sizer made to size the nose section down a little to fit your bore. I have the Nasa by Bernie Roweles at Old West moulds. HIs Brass 2 cavities. They cast a great bullet. In 45 cal I'm shooting his 550 grn silhouette bullet. in 45-70 its recoils is heavy but not to bad in the 45-90 recoil is pretty stout.

If you have a lee sizer die in .451 you might try sizing the nose down in it to the driving bands and see if that helps. A .449 die could be made for this pretty easily

[Thundermaker]

I've just about decided to try the "Money" bullet for silhouette. It looks like I'm going to have to work up 3 loads, GG bp, PPbp, and smokeless plinking load. That's ok I guess. I shoot high power too, and some of those guys have a different load for each distance in the same match.

[Thundermaker]

You don’t want to try shooting it first before you make it a 90?


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Sure. I'm going to have a chamber cast done to see what kind of chamber and throat dimensions I'm dealing with.

[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/e747c4751206d002606e36a84658e573.gif. It will probably look a lot like this.


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[Thundermaker]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/e747c4751206d002606e36a84658e573.gif. It will probably look a lot like this.


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It's a factory gun, and factories have tolerance ranges.

[Randy C]

Thundermaker My rifle is a cimmeron/Pedersoli it had a bad 34" heavy round barrel from the factory they would of replaced it but i wanted a Krieger I had it reamed tight/standard 2.10 I figured my Nasa bullet would fit its a long slender bullet and wider at the lube groves Bernie Roweles of Old West Bullet moulds is going to send me some smaller size die's for it to use on the nose so it can extend into the chamber like it did with my old barrel he's also sending me a Ledzepplin mould to try,,the nose is long and narrower on it. I grew up around there when i was a kid he showed me how to cast i feel like I'm buying local there.

I make a casting of my barrel and chamber with Cerosafe its soft and easy to melt there are several videos on you tube if you want to try it. I oil my barrel and stuff some rags in the barrel to contain the Cerosafe. I do the same when I cast the chamber it's real soft, I knock it out with a cleaning rod, I buy a lot of stuff from Buffalo arms they will help you on the phone they specialize in what were doing. (Using Cerosafe you should oil everything up good it comes out easy)

I will be glade to send you some bullets if you want to try something different. I'm going to try different things this year, when I'm not competing,,there is a lot of places to shoot here with in 2 hours, I'm 5 min from our local range.
Good luck and i hope you get started shooting soon its a blast and addictive. Its expensive to get everything going compared to shooting a normal hunting rifle. I have thousands invested I like my spotting scope and phone adapter I can video my shots especially when I'm buy my self, Its nice to play it back and see your groups at long range 725yds here or out to 1200 in some places. 45-70 can do it. I have a Labradar and 1 mile plus camera and a Amp annealer.

It has taken me a lot of years to get where I am and I'm still learning I have for got so much over the years I worked 16 hr days for 10 yrs in the oil field and didn't have much time to shoot. I'm semi retired this year.
Good luck send a pm if you want or need something.

Bernie Raweles shoots 3 Pedersoli rifles I talked to him today and he has never had one led up he shoots the same bullets i do. if you send him a email or leave him a message he may be able to answer any question you have in person, He always calls me back, He has a full time job plus his mould business.

I just Cerosafe my chamber it came out to 45.85 That's why last years bullets don't fit. I'm waiting on smaller sizing die's.

[craneman]

Thundermaker
If you were to ask my opinion I would tell you to read on this forum and the historic shooting forum distantthunder's (Jim Kluskins) posts detailing dual diameter paper patch bullets. The chamber/throat relationship you are likely to find in that Pedersoli would lend it self very well to that style of bullet. I would also suggest you check out threads in the paper patch forum and look at the bore pigs many of us are using to wipe with. Also a delrin rod to push the pigs through.
There are many paths to get to where you want to go but this would be my suggestion as a good starting place.
My son Daniel and I have been shooting paper patch 45-70 exclusively in matches for several years with great results. Where they really shine is when the wind kicks up.

Todd

[Randy C]

It sounds like he's getting a good game plan together by trying 3 different style loads. I may have been doing it the hard way,,I'm going to try PP this year to see if its more accurate. some one is sending me some. I'm hoping my old moulds works the best, Ive never tried PP it might be faster and cleaner shooting,, lubing and sizing bullets can be messier and a pain in the *** some times.

[Thundermaker]

A local farmer has just begun a 1 mile charity shoot, and it has my wheels turning, although I don't know if I can cram enough power in that case to get me there, even with pp bullets. It doesn't help that most mold manufacturers don't publish B.C. data for their designs.

[wills]

.45-70 At Two Miles

http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

[Thundermaker]

.45-70 At Two Miles

http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html

Yes, but lobbing a bullet just to see how far it will fly is different from trying to hit a 2' square target. The tallest available tang sight for a sharps has 414 MOA of elevation adjustment. According to my ballistic calculator, at the velocities that at 45/70 is capable of with black powder, it would require a bullet with a B.C. of at least .383. Otherwise, the rear sight won't have enough elevation.

[country gent]

Thundermaker, There are programs online that will figure bc of a given bullet, all you need are the velocity at 2 distances for the bullet. Given good numbers they can be very accurate. Then a ballistics program with the BC and velocity will give you sight come ups and height above target at a given range ( I have done this at 200 yds for a 1000yd zero on a 308). A tall target with an aiming bull at the bottom and one at the correct height allows a rough zero to be put on the rifle.

If you think you need more elevation with the rear ladder a spacer block can be made up ( 1/2" or 3/4" tall) with the sights hole spacing staggered to gain some more elevation on the rear sight. But with it in place you may not zero at 200 yds.

Also going to these extended ranges may require adjusting the angle of the staff slightly to see a round aperture hole. A front sight that's angled helps also. Another plus is a padd for the cheek piece to raise head up to the sights when extended this tall.

[Bent Ramrod]

Kenny Wasserberger does a Mile Shoot on his ranch once a year. He has written it up in great detail on the Shiloh forum. I remember he wrote the number of MOAs needed to reach a mile-distant target over a 1000-yd one somewhere in his descriptions. He himself uses a .45-2+7/8” rifle, but some of the shooters use other charges; you’d have to read the thread and draw your own conclusions as to what will work at that range.

I think it was entitled “Trends in Long-Range Target Shooting,” or something like that.

[Randy C]

I like what country gent said you could put a spacer under your sites that would allow you to zero any where you want.

[Don McDowell]

Most of the folks that shoot the "Mile Match" use an extension on their MVA sights. It's about 3 inches long, it attaches on the bottom in place of the eye disc, and has a hole on the top that it threaded to accept the eye disc. Save a lot of messing around trying to build a tall enough block to go under the sight.

[Thundermaker]

I'm going to have to buy a new tang sight anyway. The one that came on it looks like something someone made out of hardware store parts in their garage. There's very little windage available, and the elevation screw can be wiggled about 1/8" vertically. Since I have to buy one, I might as well get the MVA xlr sight, as it will do anything I would ever need. It has enough elevation to get me to a mile with most of the bullets commonly used in long range bpcr shooting, including the 500 gr "government" bullet, with plenty of elevation range left over.

My current game plan is to start out with the 545gr NASA bullet from old west moulds. It has a relatively high BC, and it's designed to load out long. According to my ballistics program, I can launch it at 1100fps (just below the sound barrier) and get it to 1 mile with 387 MOA of drop from a 100 yard zero. IF that bullet remains stable at that velocity, it would be ideal, because the bullet would never go transonic. At least that's the theory. I'll have fun figuring it out. I may start a "journey of a mile" thread to document the process if it starts to get interesting.

[john.k]

Two miles was 3500yds when I went to school.......2500yds is about 1 1/2 miles.,and for 1 mile ,I would estimate a line of flight rising to 200 feet elevation..............instead of wind flags ,you are going to need weather balloons.......incidentally,this is the theory behind left hand rifling twist...........at extreme ranges the nose of the bullet tends to dip,and so the ballistic shape of the bullet is preserved,if the bullet stays coaxial with the rifle bore ,it has a sideways component added to drag.....RH twist is said to cause the bullet to tilt upwards at the nose,exaggerating the effect.

[Thundermaker]

One mile is 1760 yards. According to the calculator, a 10 mph full value wind will cause a shift of 20 moa, which is 0.81 MOA more than a .308 with a 175gr matchking at 2600 fps, which is the lake city match load.

Of course, it's just a calculator. The only way to know for sure is to try it.

[Gunlaker]

Don't too much about transitioning to subsonic. Pretty much no one is shooting LR with black powder rifles with bullets going that slowly. Most go the other way and push them a lot harder to minimize vertical dispersion. These bullets aren't like the typical boattail that gets crazy wobbly going transonic.

Hitting a 2'x2' plate at a mile is a lofty goal for a BPCR rifle. That's about the size of the ten ring on the 1000 yard target. Hitting that with reasonable consistency at 1000 would put you in the top ranks of the master class. The main problem is just trying to read the wind well enough to get the job done.

It'll be interesting to hear how it goes though!

Chris.

[Thundermaker]

Hitting a 2'x2' plate at a mile is a lofty goal for a BPCR rifle.

As we found out a couple weeks ago, it's a lofty goal with anything. It took 27 shooters all day to hit it once with high dollar precision rifles. One guy finally hit it with a 6.5 creedmore. Another hit it later with a 300 win mag.

As you say, the wind is the killer. Even with a 300 win mag, you get 16 MOA of wind drift in at 10mph. That's 23' and change. A light breeze could be the difference between a hit and a miss.

The fact is, a mile is a long way, no matter what you're shooting. It's going to be fun trying to get there.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah I imagine it would be tricky :-). I've never shot past 1000 yards, and I'm sure that the difficulty keeps going up. Conditions must have been a bit tricky if it took that long to get hits with a 300 win mag. If you look at the results that Kenny posts for his mile shoot, the large capacity cases seem to have a big advantage.

Chris.

[Thundermaker]

Yeah I imagine it would be tricky :-). I've never shot past 1000 yards, and I'm sure that the difficulty keeps going up. Conditions must have been a bit tricky if it took that long to get hits with a 300 win mag. If you look at the results that Kenny posts for his mile shoot, the large capacity cases seem to have a big advantage.

Chris.

Mostly it was the fact that we were shooting at a time of day when the temperature was rapidly changing. It went from 50° to 71° over the course of 2 hours (ahh, Georgia. If you don't like the weather, just wait a few hours. It'll change). It really threw people for a loop.

I'm sure a 45/110 or a 50/90 would be better, but I stumbled upon this 45/70 for a steal, and I want to make the most of it.

[Lead pot]

234698

Don't worry about staying under 1100 fps to reach a mile. If I can hit a full sized iron Buffalo several times after finding the sight setting and hold off at 1585 yards in a good breeze using my .44-77 with Lawrence barrel sights that does not have windage adjustment capability shooting a original sharps bullet at 485 gr your .45-70 with a long enough tang sight will make the mile in fine shape at 1250 fps plus. I can pick up dust in the corn field past a mile with the barrel sights.

You will be better off shooting a bullet with a lower BC with a black powder cartridge rifle, they hold stability better than a long nosed sharp pointed high BC at extended ranges. :) I don't think I could see a 2' square target at a mile with barrel or tang sights. :) When you shoot with those guys with them using their .300 win mags and high powered scopes and hit that iron with your black powder loads and lead bullet it will make them scratch their heads :D

[Distant Thunder]

Thundermaker,

With the right bullet and load that .45-70 will take you any place you want to go. If the chamber is as Ian posted here it is very similar to the chamber in my C. Sharps .45-70. I have used that rifle for years for mid-range paper matches out to 600, long-range paper matches out 1000 and NRA silhouette matches with very good results shooting grease groove bullets.

I have relied on Swiss 1 1/2 for all my match shooting for many years and I was able to load 82.0 grains under the Lyman Postell bullet with a .030 LDPE wad. That load gave me just over 1300 fps and all the accuracy I needed to win my first NRA Regional Long Range match.

It takes a bit of learning to be able to load the .45-70 to be competitive with the .45-90 and longer cartridges, but you can get there if you want to. There are those who do well with cartridges longer than the .45-90, but that's not an easy path either. There is more fouling and heavier recoil in those big cases.

With the freebore that rifle of yours probably has you already have a .45-90 in function but without the longer case. Don't be afraid to compress 1 1/2 Swiss .250 to .300", there is likely a second sweet spot with that amount of compression that will get you to 1300+ fps which is all you'll need. With black powder and heavy recoil the longer cases top out at 1400+ fps anyway and that is not really enough difference to put you in he winner circle.

Learn to shoot your .45-70 in all kinds of conditions, good and bad, and you will leave most everyone else in your smoke. The only way to do that is to spend a lot of time shooting. There is no substitute for range time, especially under match conditions. Go to as many matches as you can and start shooting as soon as possible. If you don't you'll only end up wondering why you didn't start sooner! Yes, you'll miss the target sometimes, but we all do even after years of match shooting. Don't worry about that.

Don't get stuck on high BC bullets, look to the most accurate bullet in your rifle. Your rifle will tell you what it likes best. You have something close to 18-twist barrel if not an 18-twist. Stay with bullets not over 1.450" long, and better if they are 1.430-1.440" long. As the range increases stability will out way BC at black powder velocities every time. And, YES, there is a difference between a .45 caliber bullet in an 18-twist that is 1.430" long and one that is 1.460" long. The longer one will shoot well when things are steady and stable, when the wind gets twitchy the shorter more stable bullet will hold up well and the longer marginally stable bullet will go to **** and leave you scratching you head.

So many shooters can't figure out why their load/bullet shoots so well one time and then the next it's all over the target? Stability is a complicated thing to understand but very easy to achieve, just don't get too long and you're there.

Stability is also affected by bullet shape. A more slender, higher BC nose will require a faster spin than a blunter, lower BC bullet of the same length. Most shooters don't consider bullet length at all when choosing a long range bullet, but their should.

So to recap. I suggest a bullet of reasonably high BC that is not longer than 1.440". Use 1 1/2 Swiss powder and the primer your rifle prefers. Try all the primers you can get. Probably start with Federal 210 Premium Gold Medal Large Rifle. Drop tube enough powder into your primed case to require .200" compression to start with, compress. Hand seat a .060 LDPE wad on the powder. If you compress this much with the wad in place you may bulge your case. Finger seat you bullets lubed with a good quality lube (Black Magic, SPG are two). Your bullets should be as big around as will fit your unsized case and still chamber, probably .459-.460-ish. Size them IF NEEDED with a Lee push thru sizing die, but only as much as needed.

The bullet seating depth will be controlled by you compression depth and should be such that when you raise you breech block the bullet is pushed into the rifling lead as much as can be done without having to force it too much, probably .020-.030".

Wipe between shots with one or two damp patches being careful not to leave a puddle in the chamber. A chamber mop should be used if necessary to dry the chamber. Wiping needs to match conditions. With grease groove bullets you don't really want to wipe all the lube from the previous shot out of the bore and you don't have to be squeaky clean and bone dry. Paper patch are a different animal.

There are a million variables to play with in the loading of black powder, but if you start with what I have suggested you should have some reasonable accuracy without too much work and you can learn and improve from there.

Paper patch bullets are superior to grease groove and not anymore time consuming to load. I think they are even easier, but I keep it very simple. With them the fit to your chamber is even more critical than grease groove and it helps to have someone who knows what they're doing to get you up to speed more quickly. I don't shoot greasers anymore in matches. PPB are just the best there is, just a plain and simple fact. For some reason there are those who can't seem to get them to work. That is why I say start with GG, there will be more people close by that can help you with any problems. With PPB there are not that many who do it well. That number however is increasing every year and that is a good thing for our sport.

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions, just use a good filter. There are a number of very good shooters on here and elsewhere that can give you good answers to all your questions. Not everyone who is an expert shooter on the internet has actually won many matches if any at all, it will be easy to see the difference if you look.

[rfd]

... Paper patch bullets are superior to grease groove and not anymore time consuming to load. I think they are even easier, but I keep it very simple. With them the fit to your chamber is even more critical than grease groove and it helps to have someone who knows what they're doing to get you up to speed more quickly. I don't shoot greasers anymore in matches. PPB are just the best there is, just a plain and simple fact. For some reason there are those who can't seem to get them to work. That is why I say start with GG, there will be more people close by that can help you with any problems. With PPB there are not that many who do it well. That number however is increasing every year and that is a good thing for our sport. ...

jim, for loading/shooting PPBs, do you feel that there is an advantage with using a custom, tighter PPB chamber over a standard .45-70gov't chamber?

[Lead pot]

Rob, We will see how Jim feels about this.
But I will say yes. I see a difference with the last 5 reamers I had made for the .40, 44's and .45

[rfd]

what are the key positive differences yer seeing, kurt?

[ian45662]

I have never shot a true paper patch chamber so take it for what it’s worth but I would say no. A dedicated pp chamber would probably take less
Steps but as far as accuracy I would say one is no better than the other. That’s for silhouette mind you. I have no experience with bptr but my c sharps has no free bore. No lead. It just as a 12.5 degree transition from the case mouth into the rifling. Out of the 17 shoots I went to in 2018 7 were master scores. Some 34s a 33 and 4 32s. Most of the ones they were not master scores were very close. Couple early shoots in 2018 were mid 20s. Having the chamber that I do does require me to anneal each time though so there is that.


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[rfd]

ian, was that no-leade c.sharps chamber ream special or a c.sharps optional offering?

[ian45662]

My understanding is that c sharps used to use a 45/70 reamer that had a lot of free bore. I didn’t ask for anything special when I ordered it so maybe they have changed their reamer design but I can’t say for sure since this is the only one I have ever had. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190126/7116ded98aac98987b4b3be63f7be53e.jpg


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[rfd]

thanx for the pic. if the rifling is consistent in its diameters, how could such a chamber work with a groove sized lubed bullet, since there's no free bore? seems like it requires a bore rider.

[ian45662]

It shoots the brooks 540 grain Creedmoor very well. I tried some 535 grain baco money bullets one time and they were all over the place. My best 200 yard groups have been with the Creedmoor bullet with 67 grains of OE 1.5 but my for silhouette it very much prefers this paper patch bullet. 82 grains of Swiss 1.5


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[Gunlaker]

Ian, that sounds the same as the Browning 1885 chamber. I wish my old C. Sharps 1885 had that chamber, mine was like Jim described his. I never got it shooting PP well, and even for greasers it I could never make it work as well as my Shiloh's.

When was your rifle built if you don't mind me asking? I think I got mine in 2010 or maybe a little earlier.

Chris.

[rfd]

ian, that makes sense since it sure looks like that chamber was made for a bore riding PPB.

[ian45662]

From what I have seen it’s a dead ringer for what they used in the browning bpcr rifles. I just took delivery of a reamer from jgs that duplicates this chamber and I will be using it to chamber my cpa. I took delivery of the Rifle in 2012 if I remember correctly.


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[Distant Thunder]

rfd,

Yes! I'd be lying to say otherwise, but I only have the one rifle that has a "paper patch" chamber and it was cut with Brent's reamer. That being said, I do believe very good accuracy can be achieved with a good standard chamber as long as the bullet is a good fit to that chamber. I've had very good accuracy from my .45-90 Shiloh with their standard chamber and a straight sided bore diameter bullet. I have also gotten excellent accuracy from my C. Sharps 1875 in .40-65 with a designed to fit 2-diameter paper patch bullet.

If I were building a new rifle it would have a paper patch chamber without a doubt and Brent's design has provided excellent accuracy for me and the .45-70 with a PPB is a very good choice for long range matches, I believe it is the best choice.

[ian45662]

The money bullet and creedmoor bullet I have shot out of it we’re both groove diameter bullets. I have shot 2 different type of bore diameter paper patch bullets in this rifle and it has taken to both very well.


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[rfd]

good scoop, fellers. thanx, rob.

[Distant Thunder]

Ian,

The Brooks 540 grain Creedmoor would be an excellent choice for the Pedersoli chamber you posted assuming a length suitable to the twist. That design is much easier to get excellent accuracy with than the high BC Money bullet designs. When those high BC bullets work they work very well, they just don't work in every rifle it seems. The Creedmoor design works in almost any rifle. The Lyman Government bullet is like that too, it works is most rifles. It's not the best choice for LR matches perhaps, but I have seen it used very effectively by a good shooter in LR matches.

That Gov't bullet is very accurate in my C. Sharps .45-70 and I used it at 800 yards at Lodi and often had the high aggregate score at that yardage. I never tried it at 900 and 1000 yards.

[ian45662]

The creedmoor bullet is a very good choice I think. Your right Jim it seems to work in just about every rifle.


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[ian45662]

For what it’s worth I have shot against Jim in silhouette and I am pretty sure he is beating me.


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[Lead pot]

Rob,
Here are the last two reamers I used for the CPA .45-90 and .40-65 both chambers are very tight designed only for a PP bullet that will fit a case mouth of the unsized case. I can't seat a bullet that is .003" over bore diameter in the fired case and the .45-90 has a 5 degree/1'.5" compound lead into the throat the .40-65 has a 4 degree/1.5 compound. And I will say the tight chamber shows better results than the chambers used for a GG with a 45 degree chamber end transition.
The bullet does not have to expand to fill the space as much as a standard chamber and this keeps the bullet from getting swaged back down for the existing bore groove diameter.
I can't explain the results any better than the target in the photo I shot working up loads at 200 yards.
Yes I will say a large chamber will work because I have them also.
Kurt

234715234716234717

[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/2b6ec79800725b68c5c4c42be8b579d6.jpg. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/cc1f2b980ea28f7d921af9da94052fe5.jpg. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/2585cfab0389175a12ef7f2fbe2e6b59.jpg. Here are a few groups shot with my chamber with paper patch. The paper targets were 200 yards. The turkeys were 385 meters.


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[ian45662]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/753ee35630482d8559b08314524e16bd.jpg. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/c308596d7a2ac3972f559639ae8904d1.jpg. These are some groups shot with the grease groove Creedmoor bullet. The one target is 10 shots. The paper patch load seems to hold it together at distance a little better than the Creedmoor load does.


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[ian45662]

It’s also worth mentioning that my c sharps came with a 16 twist green mountain barrel.


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[Distant Thunder]

Kurt and Ian,

Those are indeed some good looking targets. The turkey group says a lot about how well you load is working, Ian.

I can't say that I have shot any really outstanding groups at 200 yards with my .45-70 paper patch rifle, I really haven't shot it at 200 yards for groups since I got it up and running. There is however no doubt in my mind that those paper patch bullets hold up better as the range gets extended than any grease groove bullet I ever shot in competition. PPB have less drag and that alone makes them go the distance better. They are superior to GG on the target range.

With PPB I haven't had to clean lead out of my barrel after a match either, that wasn't an uncommon thing to have to do with greasers. With my .45-90 I often had to clean lead out between relays! The GG bullet I used was a little lube challenged, but it shot very well as long as I kept the lead cleaned out.

[ian45662]

I shot my pp loads and my greaser
Load at turkeys at a practice one day. The pp load
Required less sight adjustment for the changing conditions.


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[Distant Thunder]

I don't think a 16-twist hurts anything and probably helps in many ways. I have stayed with 18-twist because it's what I know and I can make it work very well for me. I avoid things I don't know and are hard to change if I can't make it work. These days I experiment a lot less than I used to. I do continue to make small adjustments to my loading, the way I set up to shoot a match and my wiping procedure. Though that last one is pretty well settled now, bore pigs work.

[ian45662]

I hear ya. Your loads work great anyway so there isn’t really any need for anymore experimenting anyways.


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[rfd]

no barrel leading and no concern over max OAL is what i like about PPB cartridges. i found that making a PPB round that works reasonably well isn't all that hard to accomplish. but consistent accuracy beyond that, that's the real challenge, at least for me. it's just different and more demanding than greasers and bp, or greasers and smokeless. still beats messing with "lazy man" guns. ;)

[Lead pot]

Ian those are good looking holes, Sure makes a feller feel good when you go down range and see that your rifle is capable to do that.

[ian45662]

Kinda makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy.


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[Distant Thunder]

When someone says that black powder is dirty or hard to get to work and that paper patching is labor intensive, I always answer that I enjoy the process as much or more than the shooting. BPCR is a sport of almost infinite variables and has more things that can go wrong or just don't work from the start than any other shooting sport I've tried. If you don't enjoy the process, the journey, then you are probably better off playing golf! Or maybe a shooting sport where you just buy the ammo or everybody shoots the same bullet and load out of nearly identical rifles made mostly of plastic and parkerized metal may be better suited to you.

Me, I enjoy the process and the journey is the destination. I have simplified the process and done it enough times, over and over again, that I could do it all, except maybe the shooting part, with my eyes closed.

If you watched me load my paper patch bullets for a match you would be amazed how simple it is to do and like me you would wonder why everybody doesn't do it that way!

[ian45662]

Jim you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I am dumbfounded as to why everyone isn’t doing this. BP people are an awesome group of people. Once ya get the hang of it pp and black powder really isn’t bad at all. It is very fun and rewarding. I know you say it all the time but ya gotta match the bullet to the chamber.


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[Lead pot]

Snowing again today about 8-9" so I cast 300 .40 caliber bullets and sitting here watching a recording on Gold prospecting and wrapping the bullets.
With all the snow we had and it snowed when it was cold making it a dry light cover lucky the winds are quiet or it would be drifting worse than it is.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

We aren't getting the snow, but it is cold here. It started out at -22 this morning and slowly warmed to about 8 above, so this afternoon I grabbed my .22 and headed out to see how shooting would go.

I had to take the scope of the C. Sharps so I could put it on the .22 and the front mount was as loose as it could be. That might explain why that last target I shot for the postal 800 match started out good but went bad half way thru! I may never have more than finger tightened that mount. It never loosened up before.

Anyway, the .22 shooting didn't go too well, you set the bar too high with your CPA. It will be difficult to get close to what you were able to shoot. I did have 8 in about 3-3 1/2 inches but two leaked way out and the group was high right of center so the measurement would have been way high. I decided not to bother measuring and I about froze my toes so after a bit more shooting I headed back to the house and the warmth of wood heat, ahhhhh! Tomorrow is supposed to be colder yet so maybe I'll try again.

You probably should have held that good target back a few days, maybe a week so the rest of us would have posted something. Now I don't see the point. You need to learn to set us up before you take us down!

[Lead pot]

I just looked what we had for weather over night and it said a -14 and right now it's up to -4. I piled up some snow with the 6' snow blower the other day to test the new alloy mix I just made for the upcoming match season and shot 30 rounds with different loads but I patched them undersized and used a blow tube, just to cold to handle wet patches. I guess maybe I will start using those pigs like you are.
Well as far as the Postal shoot, you saw what happen with my .44-100 20# rifle, I fell on my face that day at the bottom of the heap. You set that bar very high with your score!! but that makes it interesting and I hesitated turning it in but we all have good and bad days behind the buttplate and the older I get I seem to get a lot more bad. I should have loaded fresh loads because they were several years old and were out in some hot weather. The .22 has always excepted most ammo I have shot through it and you saw the first target with the 18-1/4" string shot score and that is mostly average for 200, a little higher but close because a couple shots got away from me because of cold fingers but the (natural point of aim) :) saved my butt :) The second 11-3/4 went well but this is about what the Norma match shoots by average.

Last falls match at Cadillac MI. shooting Rons midrange match I used the .40-65 to see how it will work for the reason I build it and it started good after finding the paper because I never shot that rifle with a scope mounted on it and going for score it started to scatter like a shotgun and after round 6 at the 600 yard the rear mount came off with the scope hanging to one side and I finished with a 40 but before the scope came off I thought maybe I made a mistake with this rifle.
Going ahead to the 500 I shot two sighters and had to go for score and every two shots I had to tighten the mount screw but I shot two mid 90 to finish the match. So I know what loose mounts can do. I told MVA I had a problem with the new scope and a couple days later they sent me a new parts to fix it.

[Distant Thunder]

I've never had it loosen up before so I'm thinking I just didn't tighten it down at the start, just finger tight. There are so many ways to screw up and I thought I had found them all...…, not even close it seems!

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Ian.

Chris.

[sharpsguy]

Ever hear of a guy named Murphy?

[Distant Thunder]

Yes, I know him well!

[Jeff Houck]

Hi Lead Pot and Distant Thunder,
What is the 22 match you two are talking about. It sounds like a string match. Is it by chance a postal match? Where can I read up about it?
Thx, Jeff

[Distant Thunder]

Jeff,

You'll find the .22 postal match on the Shiloh forum. Rules and such are there, not too far back, maybe a week or two ago under Shooter to Shooter I think.