Original Winchester 1866 44 Henry CENTERFIRE ? ! help please

[Discus420]

So I got this at auction and took it home . It had not been oiled or cleaned for decades. While I was cleaning it up with kroil I noticed the bolt face which looks to be centerfire. I have read every article on the internet I could find and still believe it is Centerfire. I would love to here form folks on this. I am also going to be listing it at some point and don't know what the value would be especially as a centerfire rifle. I am also thinking about sending for a Cody letter but not sure if it would help any...
SN is 155504 so that is a 1879-1880 build I think here is a link to the pics https://imgur.com/a/WKCRMSu
I posted 3 pics of bolts from 1866 Winchester's its pretty obvious which one is the supposed centerfire that is mine


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[Discus420]

some more pics but the link above as them all

please ignore the lower tang screw I have an original coming !!
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[M-Tecs]

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=65040

I have an original 1866 Winchester carbine made in 1877. A few of the late ones like mine had a dual firing pin for use with the .44 Henry flat and the .44 Henry center fire. At one time I had a .44 Henry flat and I put it up so as not to lose it and haven't seen it since!! I wanted to measure it to see if I could find a center fire cartridge that could be made to shoot in it. Have any of you had any experience with doing that? I looked in Cartridges of the World and it shows both, but no measurements. Barnes says the .44-40 bullet will work in it, but the case I tried in it won't chamber past the bullet. Neither will .44 special.
I just think it would be fun to do for a few rounds.
Thanks, Irv

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/original-ballistic-data-for-the-old-winchester-1866-44-henry-round.426161/

The year was 1860. B. Tyler Henry, foreman of The New Haven Arms Company, had been working on a new, innovative rifle and rimfire cartridge. On October 16, Henry was granted a patent for the famous Henry Repeating Rifle. The cartridge used in this new rifle was appropriately named the .44 Henry in honor of it‘s inventor. It was of rimfire design and initially it was loaded with 26 grains of black powder and a 216 gr. lead bullet. Within a few years, the bullet weight was reduced to 200 grs. and a slightly heavier charge of 28 grs. of black powder was used.

In 1866, the plant was moved from New Haven to Bridgeport, Connecticut and its name changed to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The 1866 Winchester was introduced that year which featured a few improvements over the Henry rifle, one of which was the Kings patented loading gate. The .44 Henry cartridge was also chambered in this model.

In the years that followed, Winchester worked to further improve upon their model of 1866, and in 1873, their newest rifle was introduced. Winchester considered the first and most important improvement in this rifle its adaptation to the use of a longer and a central fire cartridge, holding a larger charge of 40 grains of powder instead of 28 as in the Henry. They retained the same caliber, .44/100, and the same weight of ball, 200 grains. They stated, “The effect of this change is to increase the initial velocity of the arm from about 1,125 f.p.s. to 1,325 feet per second, reducing or flattening the trajectory and increasing the power and accuracy of the arm and giving it a penetration of about 4 inches, in pine board, at 1000 yards." Winchester described it to be effective and accurate to 500-600 yards.

[Discus420]

[QUOTE=M-Tecs;4542356]https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=65040

[/I]
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/original-ballistic-data-for-the-old-winchester-1866-44-henry-round.426161/

Thanks M-Tecs I have read both of the articles you pasted in and if you notice the first article from leverguns is the source of one of the pictures I included in my post . It looks like a rimfire to me unlike the rifle I have which looks like a centerfire.

Im looking for help on CENTERFIRE 44's made by Winchester Model 1866

[Bazoo]

In the cartridges of the world (fifth) there is a 44 Henry center fire cartridge listed on page 117. It states "It is believed to have been a special cartridge manufactured for the final lot of 1866 Henry rifles made by Winchester."

In the 14th edition on page 223 it says "In 1891, 1020 M1866 Winchester rifles were chambered for this cartridge and shipped to Brazil."

In the bandleaders manual of cartridge conversions it say that 44 Henry centerfire can e made from 220 swift casings.

Bazoo

[Reverend Al]

It might pay to get a factory letter from Cody to see if your rifle was built as a late production centre-fire or if it was possibly converted by Winchester sometime later.

A few late production 1866s were configured to fire .44 Henry centerfire, and period conversions may have been performed to fire .44 Henry CF or other .44 caliber cartridges available at the time. Long story short, if your 1866 isn’t in .44 Henry RF, you have some investigating to do.

[curator]

There has been an apocryphal story concerning Col. Hiram Berdan's "invention' of the central-fire cartridge; The story says Berdan was superintendent of a reservation where the government had issued the Indians .44 Henry or Winchester 66 rifles for hunting. This made the Indians dependant on government sources for ammunition that could be cut off if there was trouble brewing. After several months where the Army withheld ammo to limit the possibility of an uprising, Berdan noticed that hunting parties were still returning with game. Thinking they had some illegal source of ammo he sent scouts to find out where they were getting it. One of them returned with a couple of spent .44 Henry cartridges that had a hole punched in the center of the copper base where a percussion cap had been pressed inplace to fire the cartridge. Apparently the Indians had used an awl to make a suitably sized hole in the center, pressed a percussion cap in place then through the case mouth, carefully dropped a small pebble into the cap. Then the case was filled with powder and a .44 cast revolver bullet or round ball was thumb seated. Indian gunsmiths altered the firing pin/breech face to fire these reloaded cartridges. Seeing the utility of this improvisation, Berdan patented the idea of using a percussion cap but built the anvil into the base of the cartridge case. And so, that is how the "Berdan Primer" was born. If this story is in any way true, you may have one of these altered rifles.

[Discus420]

There has been an apocryphal story concerning Col. Hiram Berdan's "invention' of the central-fire cartridge; The story says Berdan was superintendent of a reservation where the government had issued the Indians .44 Henry or Winchester 66 rifles for hunting. This made the Indians dependant on government sources for ammunition that could be cut off if there was trouble brewing. After several months where the Army withheld ammo to limit the possibility of an uprising, Berdan noticed that hunting parties were still returning with game. Thinking they had some illegal source of ammo he sent scouts to find out where they were getting it. One of them returned with a couple of spent .44 Henry cartridges that had a hole punched in the center of the copper base where a percussion cap had been pressed inplace to fire the cartridge. Apparently the Indians had used an awl to make a suitably sized hole in the center, pressed a percussion cap in place then through the case mouth, carefully dropped a small pebble into the cap. Then the case was filled with powder and a .44 cast revolver bullet or round ball was thumb seated. Indian gunsmiths altered the firing pin/breech face to fire these reloaded cartridges. Seeing the utility of this improvisation, Berdan patented the idea of using a percussion cap but built the anvil into the base of the cartridge case. And so, that is how the "Berdan Primer" was born. If this story is in any way true, you may have one of these altered rifles.


Fascinating story thanks

[Baltimoreed]

A chamber cast would give you some idea of what the cartridge it uses looked like. I’ve got an original ‘73 .44-40 musket with an old refinish. Mount the bayonet on the end of that 30 inch bbl and boy, you’ve got a double handful of Winchester. Neat old rifles.

[Discus420]

233421
So mine is the bolt in the middle a true centerfire 1866! I believe. One of the guys on Lever scoundrels found this in one of his books.

[1Hawkeye]

.44 Henry center fire = .44 American it had the same bullet weight,powder charge and case dimensions just a different ignition system.

[Discus420]

.44 Henry center fire = .44 American it had the same bullet weight,powder charge and case dimensions just a different ignition system.

Thanks that's awesome I can buy these!!

[Gewehr-Guy]

Back in the early 80's I was at a local auction that sold a 1866, I should have bought it as years later it was documented as having been heavily used at the Custer battlefield. Apparently after a prairie fire burned the battlefield area, they used metal detectors to follow where all the skirmishes took place by all of the cartridges they found. If you provided your rifle and a bunch of money, they would try to match the bullets or casings to your gun, and this 1866 had damage to one side of the RF striker, and was tied to many of the found cases. The gun later sold at auction for$660,000 if I remember correctly. There was a story about the rifle in the Dakota Territory Gun Collectors Assn. newsletter a few years ago.

[Discus420]

Back in the early 80's I was at a local auction that sold a 1866, I should have bought it as years later it was documented as having been heavily used at the Custer battlefield. Apparently after a prairie fire burned the battlefield area, they used metal detectors to follow where all the skirmishes took place by all of the cartridges they found. If you provided your rifle and a bunch of money, they would try to match the bullets or casings to your gun, and this 1866 had damage to one side of the RF striker, and was tied to many of the found cases. The gun later sold at auction for$660,000 if I remember correctly. There was a story about the rifle in the Dakota Territory Gun Collectors Assn. newsletter a few years ago.


WOW! where do I sign up!!! except mine was a 1879-1880 bummer...….

it does make me want to get a cody letter on the gun though.....

[AntiqueSledMan]

.44 Henry center fire = .44 American it had the same bullet weight,powder charge and case dimensions just a different ignition system.

Not exactly the same, here is what I have listed for both the 44 Henry CF and the 44 S&W American.
Larry Potterfield made 44 S&W Americans from 41 Mag, might be able to use for 44 Henry CF.

AntiqueSledMan.233444233445

[Larry Gibson]

There has been an apocryphal story concerning Col. Hiram Berdan's "invention' of the central-fire cartridge; The story says Berdan was superintendent of a reservation where the government had issued the Indians .44 Henry or Winchester 66 rifles for hunting. This made the Indians dependant on government sources for ammunition that could be cut off if there was trouble brewing. After several months where the Army withheld ammo to limit the possibility of an uprising, Berdan noticed that hunting parties were still returning with game. Thinking they had some illegal source of ammo he sent scouts to find out where they were getting it. One of them returned with a couple of spent .44 Henry cartridges that had a hole punched in the center of the copper base where a percussion cap had been pressed inplace to fire the cartridge. Apparently the Indians had used an awl to make a suitably sized hole in the center, pressed a percussion cap in place then through the case mouth, carefully dropped a small pebble into the cap. Then the case was filled with powder and a .44 cast revolver bullet or round ball was thumb seated. Indian gunsmiths altered the firing pin/breech face to fire these reloaded cartridges. Seeing the utility of this improvisation, Berdan patented the idea of using a percussion cap but built the anvil into the base of the cartridge case. And so, that is how the "Berdan Primer" was born. If this story is in any way true, you may have one of these altered rifles.

Really....where is it mentioned historically that he was a "superintendent of a reservation"? Indian "gunsmiths" ..."altered the firing pin/breech face to fire these reloaded cartridges"....really?

[Drm50]

I have never seen CF 1866 and have only had a RF in really bad condition. That was several years ago and I only bought it to get a full box and partial box of original ammo. As far as the 44 American
a sheriff in our county had a single shot derringer that was chambered for this round. I forget the name of the maker but it wasn't one of the big name companies of the time.

[Texas by God]

You absolutely should have it lettered. Why wouldn't you? You can add the cost of the letter to your starting bid for the auction.

[Larry Gibson]

You absolutely should have it lettered. Why wouldn't you? You can add the cost of the letter to your starting bid for the auction.

Absolutely agree.......it very well is one of the latest of the M66s made for the central fire 44 Henry.........nice find!

[Wayne Smith]

.44 American is a heeled bullet cartridge. .44 Russian is essentially the same cartridge with the bullet inside - the Russians insisted on this change for them to buy the S&W Model 3.

[Redneck45]

The 1866 Winchester in 44 Henry centerfield flat did get used in America minutely but we're mostly sent to Brazil. It is better known as the 44 Henry centerfield short, in Brazil it is called the 44 Brazillian Nagant. You can buy ammo for it from south American ammunition manufacturers as several calibers designated absolute or dead here.in America are still in extensively wide use in 3rd world countries.

[bedbugbilly]

Take a look at this month's American Rifleman on the last page - "I Have This Old Gun" . . . good write up on a '66 carbine and conversion to center fire cartridge.

[skeettx]

Welcome Redneck45, welcome on your first posting

GREAT
Boxer or Berdan primers??

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There is currently an article about these rifles on the NRA website.
Also, inside last page (88) of July, 2019 American Rifleman.

[BP Dave]

I know this is an older post, but I have experienced kind of a two-year gap in my life, so hopefully this is not too old to revive.

How did the historical letter shake out? Did you ever disassemble it to see if it looked like a factory or gunsmith centerfire?

--DJ