Crimping options for 30-30 rounds in lever action rifles

[El Bibliotecario]

Were I to load for a 30-30 lever action rifle using Lee 309 113 and 309 180 bullets, both of which have crimping grooves, would it be preferable to use a roll crimp? Most of the ammunition loaded would be light loads. I am a fan of the Lee factory crimp die for jacketed bullets, but am concerned about rounds in a tubular magazine having insufficiently crimped bullets pressed deeper into the case. I have no experience loading for tubular magazine lever action weapons and would be curious to hear opinions from those who do.

[toallmy]

I have only just begun casting for rifles , but I got a quick reminder about crimping when I started working on a faster load . At first I just barely crippled enough to straighten the neck and everything was beautiful with my light loads , but my first 5 shot group put a stop to my load test when I noticed boolits sitting back when ran through the tube magazine . I didn't notice wile I tried them out single loading previously . I promptly returned home
to adjust a little more crimp .
The real problem seems to be when the crimp grove doesn't work with the overall all length you want to load at . Be safe .

[redhawk0]

I haven't done any 30 cal yet (soon though)....but I do load for the 45-70 and I use a HEAVY crimp using the Lee FCD. I don't want my boolits backing up on me. I've never seen any issues with the heavy crimp. I can't see why 30-30 would be any different. Crimp them tight and you should be fine.

redhawk

[ShooterAZ]

I use the Lee FCD to crimp my 30-30 loads, it works fine. I have never had a round telescope into the case within the tubular magazine. I use the FCD to mainly just remove the bell from case flaring. Just a light crimp is all I've ever needed. Neck tension does the rest.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have the Lee Factory crimp dies for the tube magazine levers, 348 Win, 35 Rem, 30-30, 32 Special, 444 Marlin and 45-70 but I also use seating/crimping dies from Lyman, Herters, RCBS, and Redding. LONG BEFORE the Lee FCD existed we loaded for tube feeds very successfully. Seating the bullet so the case mouth is positioned so it is at the forward edge of the crimp groove, then readjusting the die to crimp. With a little fussing back and forth seating, and crimping can successfully accomplished in one step. I only crimp the case enough to catch the bullet in the crimping groove. If the case mouth will not catch on a sharp edge from bullet to case, the crimp is enough. Heavy bullets in revolvers have entirely different requirements. I have loaded 'test rounds' that I measured after loading and firing multple magazine fulls to test my crimps on the hard kickers. As long as the case mouth catches in the crimp groove the bullet won't move into the case. Excessive crimps can damage bullets and is hard on cases, accuracy usually benefits from lighter crimps in the tube feed rifles. This is based on a bullet/neck relationship of about .002-003 neck inside diameter to bullet diameter for a decent friction fit between bullet and case neck.

[MT Chambers]

I don't use the lee "die", it is unnecessary and I crimp all my revolver loads and levergun loads with the crimper on my Redding seating dies.

[JSnover]

Were I to load for a 30-30 lever action rifle using Lee 309 113 and 309 180 bullets, both of which have crimping grooves, would it be preferable to use a roll crimp?

Yes. A roll crimp takes full advantage of the crimp groove. If your seating depth with some bullets leaves the groove in the wrong place or your bullets don't have a groove, then a taper crimp would be best.

[MyFlatline]

I use the Lee FCD for all rifle and have no issues.

[Texas by God]

Case length variations don't matter as much with the fcd, but I use both kinds.

[hockeynick39]

I use the Lee FCD and have zero issues!

[OverMax]

would it be preferable to use a roll crimp? Yup.
The real reason behind roll crimping? Tube feed Magazine's.
Such cartridges require a deep roll crimp equal to what is suggested for a magnum cartridge.
I reload cartridges for a 30-30 Savage lever. Quite the opposite. Seldom have I found it necessary to apply a roll crimp for that rifle. Doing so typically decreases accuracy. Just a tight taper crimp I use.. Although~~ when making cartridges for my Win 94s or Marlin 36. Always ~always a deep roll crimp is applied because both are field rifles who's tube magazines are purposely used.

[El Bibliotecario]

Thank to all who responded. This is exactly the sort of experience I was seeking.

I am assuming (often dangerous) that the bullet seating die in the inexpensive RGB Lee two die set may be used for roll crimping.

[nvbirdman]

You do realize that the Lee FCD for 30-30 is a roll crimp don't you?

[Texas by God]

You do realize that the Lee FCD for 30-30 is a roll crimp don't you?
Mine is a segmented crimp. Three segments meeting to crease the neck. Librarian- most seating dies will crimp and it is a roll crimp.

[JSnover]

Thank to all who responded. This is exactly the sort of experience I was seeking.

I am assuming (often dangerous) that the bullet seating die in the inexpensive RGB Lee two die set may be used for roll crimping.
That's correct, your seating die is actually a seating and crimping die. The LFC die is a collet-type (still a roll crimp), used in a separate operation because most people get better results that way. You can seat and crimp at the same time but your groups might get a little loose.

[GregLaROCHE]

I crimped.45-70 rounds (jacketed) for years with a RCBS seating die and never had any problems. I now have a Lee roll crimp die. I can’t say I really see much improvement. I am shooting most at 50-100 yards with open sights. Maybe bench rest shooters with scoped rifles find it better for tight accuracy.

[hockeynick39]

Question: How do you loose accuracy from crimping? Please explain, especially with cast boolits................

[atr]

also remember that flaring the case mouth too much will influence how well the crimp works or not. The Lyman M-dies do the best job of flaring case mouth to receive the boolit by NOT over-flaring.


That's correct, your seating die is actually a seating and crimping die VERY TRUE, but again if the length of the cases are not consistent then your crimping will be inconsistent. One way to get case lengths which vary is to seat and crimp in two separate steps. On the second crimp step back off the seating stem, run the die down until the crimp engages and then turn the die another 1/2 turn to set the crimp. Do this for each individual load, it doesn't take much more time and your crimping turns out much more uniform.

[toallmy]

I picked up one of those lee case cutters for 30-30 and trimmed all my brass one evening , and it helped a lot with the crimp .

[JSnover]

Question: How do you loose accuracy from crimping? Please explain, especially with cast boolits................

As the crimp is applied, the boolit is still moving. You'd rather set the boolit to your OAL and then apply the crimp to avoid shoving the edge of the case mouth under the 'skin' of the moving boolit.
According to Lee, roll-crimping bullets that don't have a cannelure will pinch the jacket. In cases like that a taper crimp is better, either applied with a taper crimp die or by pulling the pin from your sizing die and screwing the body out far enough to apply the amount of crimp you want - you're not resizing the loaded round, just giving the neck a gentle squeeze against the bullet.

[FredBuddy]

Mr Librarian:

Step 1: Cast 'em, lube 'em, load 'em and shoot 'em with what you have.
If you are satisfied with the results---HOORAY ! If you are
not satisfied, go to step 2.

Step 2: This thread is loaded with little nuggets of information,
but will require deeper research on this website.

I started just like you, with 6 different 30-30's, and going into
my third year am still finding solutions to the peculiarities
of each rifle.

What a blast !!!

[Hick]

I know what I am about to say is sacriligious, but I have almost 10,000 rounds through my Win 94 30-30 and have never crimped any of them. I am careful to expand the neck just barely enough to get the bullet started, so as to maintain good neck tension. I also never seat gas checks past the neck. I have never seen a bullet pushed into the case on any of my loads. Could it be that you are expanding the neck too much? Take a loaded round and push the bullet against your work bench. If you cannot easily push the pullet into the case the neck tension is adequate. The other possibility is that you are loading a gas checked bullet and pushing the bullet too deep so that the gas check is no longer in the neck. The gas check will sometimes expand the neck, and then after it passes through the neck the lead that follows is not tight enough.

Of course, if you prefer to crimp that's OK-- but the reasons why your bullets get pushed into the case might have nothing to do with the crimp.

[JSnover]

I don't think you're alone, Hick.
While I crimp for lever actions I have a double rifle in 9.3x74 for which I do not crimp, just use neck tension to hold the boolits. In a tube magazine the bullets can be pushed back, in my case they can (in theory) be pulled out during recoil. I've been loading 325 grain soft points over 58.0 grains of H414 or H4350 and have not had any bullets try to pull themselves after several hundred rounds.

[725]

hockeynick39

The theory is a crimp will reduce the cast bullet in size and thus affect the way it addresses the barrel. You do all the work to get the right size boolit cast and sized and then to run it through a crimp and the crimp reduces the boolit by squishing it and then as it runs out of the case, it get further affected by the crimped brass.

[El Bibliotecario]

That's correct, your seating die is actually a seating and crimping die. The LFC die is a collet-type (still a roll crimp), used in a separate operation because most people get better results that way. You can seat and crimp at the same time but your groups might get a little loose.

If I were to use a single stage press, I was contemplating adjusting the die NOT to crimp, seating the bullets, then screwing out the seating stem then adjusting the die TO roll crimp--separate processes for each action. If I were to use my Dillon press, I would adjust the seating die not to crimp as described above and purchase an additional crimp-only die for the final station.