reducing my 45-70 load

[Jevyod]

I sold my 45-70 to my brother, and was planning on keeping on reloading for him. He does not, however, appreciate the recoil of my load I had worked up. I was loading an Accurate bullet (460-415V or something like that) to about 1550-1600 fps. That was more than he wanted to put his shoulder through. I think I have 2 choices here...load that 415 grain lower, or get some bullets in the 300-350 grain range and run those at 1500 fps or so. Application, this is strictly a hunting rifle. Max shot somewhere in the 150 yard range. Species will be mainly Pa whitetail, but he does want capability of taking it black bear hunting. I am seriously considering option B since if I load the 415 grainers down, I may need to use fillers, which I do not want to do. So I guess my question is 2 prong, which option do I do, and what is needed for my application? I am thinking either a 300 at 1500fps or the 415 at 1200 fps should do what I need it to do.

[NSB]

First of all, you don't need to use fillers if you load it down. I load most of my loads "down" to begin with. Try using Unique powder and your current bullets. If he can't shoot that load, he's absolutely trying to use the wrong gun. There's really no shame in admitting that you don't like the recoil of the 45-70 at any power level. He should be looking at a different caliber altogether. Get him something a lot smaller. Many, many, many choices to choose from to go deer and bear hunting that don't beat you up. I shoot several different 45-70 rifles and most of my loads are 405g going along at a very modest 1400-1450fps. I have yet to recover even one bullet from a deer regardless of the distance shot or the angle. I've shot a ton of reduced loads and they still thump a little bit. Only positional sensitive powders need fillers and there aren't even a lot of those. I've loaded the same load with and without fillers and rarely can I tell the difference in accuracy. Most any load with a decent bullet will shoot good in this caliber. Again, he sounds recoil sensitive and should be using something else entirely.

[725]

My favorite boolit is a 415 grain (my alloy ~ it's supposed to be 420 grains) -- 460-420 -- and I load near the top of the trap door listings with 4198 & 3031. RL-7 is right up there too, for me. I've gotten whitetails, hogs, & black bear with that loadings. Recoil isn't a problem. You / he can always install a soft recoil pad or mercury tube to lessen recoil. Very accurate.

[Hickok]

Buy a box of factory 300 gr jacketed 45/70 ammo and let him shoot them. They have moderate recoil. If he is comfortable with the 300 gr factory loads, you can get a 300 to 350 gr mold, and start making some good cast boolits reloads.

[brstevns]

Try 12 Unique with that bullet, very light recoil and still will drop anything he hits with it.

[pmer]

I don't think you mentioned the rifle but if it is a Marlin 1895 try a big charge Imr 3031 with 415 grain bullet. This sounds weird but it will shoot flatter and not kick as hard because of the characteristics of the medium speed powder. It will be very accurate and keep you safe from double charging a case especially if you're reloading for someone else.

[smkummer]

I understand the reaction to recoil. I am using unique to get 1250 FPS with a 405 grain bullet and I believe 1325 with a 350 grain bullet. I like the 350 grain more as it has less recoil in my H&R repro trapdoor officers ( with leather recoil pad) and 1895 SS marlin. I am plinking steel plates at 200 yards with those loads so 150 is doable with a 100 yard zero.

[Jevyod]

Gun is a Marlin 1895 SBL

[pworley1]

If you use the starting loads for the trapdoor Springfield you should get recoil that anyone would be ok with.

[dverna]

There is a recoil calculator that will give you a feel for how much reduction you get by reducing bullet weight and/or velocity. If It were me, I would dial down the load of the bullet you have until you find a load that he likes. If the trajectory is not flat enough, you can calculate the velocity a lighter bullet yields to equal the recoil level he wants; and then see if the faster bullet gains much in yardage.

It will save you investing in a different mold to determine if the caliber is suitable for him.

[Rick R]

Unique and 2400 work well for downloading 400ish grain bullets in the .45/70. My wife killed her first deer with a 405gr Lee boolit over 14gr of Unique. I heard her shoot and then the boolit hit from a quarter mile away.

The starting Trapdoor loads are a really good place to start as previously mentioned.

[Swamp Fox]

Smkummer- how much unique are you using to get to 1250? I load 12 grains with my 405 grain bullets, and figured they are maybe hitting 1100. I should really get a chronograph...

[GregLaROCHE]

If you use the starting loads for the trapdoor Springfield you should get recoil that anyone would be ok with.

I agree 100% with this. Before .45-70s stared getting popular again, the only published loads were for trapdoor guns. That is plenty of knock down power and doesn’t kick that hard. I will bring down a brown bear and has many times with a 405grn boolit. Start with a box of factory loads as Hickok says.

Make sure the shooter knows how to position it properly and most of all, it shouldn’t just sit against the shoulder/chest, it should be pulled in tight.

I said shoulder/chest, because the shoulder is not really the right way to think about it. It needs to be more inside towards the chest, where there is muscle to help take up the shock. Maybe others see it differently. Feel free to comment. That’s the best way I can explain it.

[Wayne Smith]

Also have him stand with sticks or sit when he shoots. The bench is the worst way to shoot a hard recoil rifle - have him where his shoulder can move with the recoil just like when hunting. It makes a world of difference. I don't shoot my 405 Win. off the bench.

[M-Tecs]

Before .45-70s stared getting popular again, the only published loads were for trapdoor guns.

Oldest manual I have is 1960. It has two pressure levels. Trapdoor loads and Winchester 1886 loads.

[GregLaROCHE]

Oldest manual I have is 1960. It has two pressure levels. Trapdoor loads and Winchester 1886 loads.

I guess I should have said published in my Lyman manual I had at the time. I now know Elmer Kieth was doing it long before, but I hadn’t seen any data on it back then.

[Outpost75]

12 grains of Unique, Red Dot or 700-X are all good, also safe in a Trapdoor, approximating the 55-grain BP carbine load, about 1000 fps. in a 22" Handi Rifle.

I would not exceed 14 grains of Unique in a Trapdoor with 405-grain bullet, but that is also a very satisfactory load.

[M-Tecs]

I guess I should have said published in my Lyman manual I had at the time. I now know Elmer Kieth was doing it long before, but I hadn’t seen any data on it back then.

In the Lyman 42nd edition published in 1960 it has two categories for 45/70. Same for 44nd and 45th. One for Trapdoors and one for Winchester 1886. Never loaded a round based on Elmer's recommendations.

[thegatman]

Try Trailboss. Shoots great and minimal recoil. Fill case. Measure powder, take 70% and shoot. Most bullets work with this. I shoot 405 cast with no problems.

[GregLaROCHE]

In the Lyman 42nd edition published in 1960 it has two categories for 45/70. Same for 44nd and 45th. One for Trapdoors and one for Winchester 1886. Never loaded a round based on Elmer's recommendations.

Well now you got me wondering about my memory. So back then, what were the factory loads loaded for? Safe for trapdoors? How hot were the loads for the Winchester?

Wish I could find that old manual.

Here’s what Elmer Kieth had to say loading 45-70

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/KeithPumpkin.pdf

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Great article GregLaROCHE. I really enjoyed it. Thanks.

[M-Tecs]

Well now you got me wondering about my memory. So back then, what were the factory loads loaded for? Safe for trapdoors? [/url]

The SAAMI spec for 45/70 has been 28,000 CUP/PSI since 1926. That is the same standard used today unless it is listed as a +P.

[Larry Gibson]

Jevyod

Powder positioning in the 45-70 cartridge case is many times not a problem when testing loads from a bench. The rifle is henerally loaded level and in the same manor so the powder can be, most often, "positioned the same simply from the act of loading the rifle. Field use is another matter though. The rifle is carried or shouldered presented differently thus the powder may be positioned within the case differently. Does this pose problems? Yes it can ond most often does with reduced smokeless loads in the 45-70. I'll present an example with IMR 3031 and a 415 gr cast bullet. However other faster burning powders such as Unique and 2400 can give the same problems when shooting other than at a bench or when positioning the powder (by raising the muzzle prior to shooting) isn't practical.

This target was fired at 100 yards using the tang rear sight on my H&R OM trapdoor. The load was 35 gr IMR 3031 w/o a filler under the 415 gr cast. The first 5 shots were loaded and the rifle was jostled up and down to replicate carrying the rifle. It was then braced on the bench over sand bags and fired. Three of the shots went low out of the bullseye (one was about 1/2" off the bottom of the paper) and two shots went high with another shot off the paper over the top. I then fired 5 shots from the same bench position elevating the muzzle after loading and slowly lowering to the shooting position before firing. The are in the bullseye with four at 3 0'clock and one at 5:30.

The average velocity (24" barrel) was 1080 fps with an extreme spread of 350 fps. The average psi (measured with a M43 Oehler PBL) ran 15,000 with almost 6,000 psi extreme spread.

233450

This target was fired right after the above target. The rear sight setting was not changed. Range again was 100 yards. The same load was used except these rounds had a 3/4 gr Dacron filler over the 35 gr of IMR 3031. The rifle was jostled about after loading and turned completely around prior to benching and shooting from the same position as used previously. The average velocity was 1230 fps with an ES of 33 fps. The psi measured 25,500 with an ES of 1,600. Both of those averages are quite good as results on the target demonstrate.

233451

Whether or not you want to use a filler is up to you.

[NSB]

I played around comparing filler vs no filler and didn't find any really practical difference in hunting accuracy with or without their use, except with 3031 powder. Using that powder as described above (tipping and moving it around) allowed the first case of semi-burned powder plugging my barrel on my 1885. I dip all my loads and use a trickler to bring them up to centerline on my scale. For low volume shooting such as the 45-70 in a single shot rifle and load development. Anyway, at the report the gun sounded very odd. Sort of a muffled thump. I looked in the barrel and it was plugged with a "lump" of brown plastic looking stuff. It took a rod to knock it back out of the gun. It was the charge of 3031 fused together and not ignited. Prior to this happening, the POI's were all over the target. I never used 3031 again in that caliber. Even with a filler it didn't group all that well in my guns. Shooting 2400, Rel 7, 4198, and 4227 I get very good accuracy with lighter loads (lighter being a 405g bullet "loafing" along at around 1350-1500 fps). For hunting purposes I just quit using fillers. Note: using 2400 powder my loads were shooting right around 1moa off the bench (scoped) and without filler they were sub 2moa in the worst case scenario. Like stated above, you need to decide if you want to use them. I strongly suggest you use one if you're going to use 3031 powder.

[WHITETAIL]

I am using IMR4198,
And shooting around 1600fps.
The deer do not object!:holysheep

[Jevyod]

Thanks for the replies guys! I loaded up some trapdoor loads according to Lyman 49th edition using 3031 powder. Should get 1200-1300 fps. I assume that should be plenty even for a good size black bear out to 100 yards.