Is eternal life given only to believers?

[wmitty]

In Genesis 3 vs 22-24 Adam & Eve are driven from the Garden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life. In Revelation 2 v 7 our Lord says "to the one who is victorious I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Are men mortal both physically (obviously) and spiritually? When John writes in Rev 20 v 14 that the lake of fire is the second death, it sounds as if he is saying that men are mortal and are destroyed. How do you see this ?

[Hickory]

All souls have eternal life.
Some will spend it in Heaven, the rest will spend it in (the other place.)

[Conditor22]

That is a million dollar question.
First, you would have to believe that God will shun and condemn all the righteous, honest and good people of all the other religions. I find that hard to believe.
The passage about the good Samaritan and Jesus saying show your faith by your works, not your words come to mind.
Just because you accept Jesus into your life doesn't guarantee a "golden ticket to heaven" if you refuse to change your way of living.

[dverna]

I do not believe God would deny eternal life to non-believers. For thousands of years, many cultures were not exposed to God and for hundreds of years many were not exposed to Christ.

My opinion is accepting Jesus serves to give us something close to a "get out of jail free" card. We accept we are not perfect and we will sin but we ask Jesus to forgive us and bear our sins on the cross He died on. Accepting Jesus does not give us the right to sin when we know we should not...some responsibility is demanded.

Jesus serves as an example of how we should attempt to live our lives and serve others. We cannot achieve His standard but He expects us to try the best we can.

[Ickisrulz]

My belief is that the unsaved are obliterated from existence after receiving a punishment for their sins.

The idea of eternal torment for the unsaved is not compatible with the character of God revealed in the Bible. Additionally, Adam and Eve were warned against death, not everlasting suffering. Jesus' teachings on the end of the wicked favor an obliteration understanding; the wicked are burned up like dead vines in a fire. They are gone.

Those that reject God can never find the peace God wants them to. God will not let their suffering continue and destroys them for their own good and the good of his people.

[HollandNut]

My understanding is those who passed prior to Christ went to 'Abraham's Bosom' a sort of holding tank , they will receive salvation based on the law , not Grace .. In the Christian belief , God doesn't send you to hell , your rejection of him sends you there ..

[Ickisrulz]

My understanding is those who passed prior to Christ went to 'Abraham's Bosom' a sort of holding tank , they will receive salvation based on the law , not Grace .. In the Christian belief , God doesn't send you to hell , your rejection of him sends you there ..

No one ever received salvation based on the Law (AKA works). People have only pleased God through faith (Romans 4, etc.).

Salvation can only come through the work of God through Jesus Christ. We call this grace. This goes for OT Saints too even though they lived years before Jesus' birth.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

[Dieselhorses]

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


See More (https://www.openbible.info/topics/lambs_book_of_life)

[dannyd]

Don't do church but I do the Kings James Bible. In the dispensation You can only be saved by grace though faith.

[Dieselhorses]

Don't do church but I do the Kings James Bible. In the dispensation You can only be saved by grace though faith.

Amen...

[dverna]

Don't do church but I do the Kings James Bible. In the dispensation You can only be saved by grace though faith.

So, how do you reconcile the fate of people from cultures that could not know of God or Jesus until missionaries visited them? For example, Native Americans, Aborigines, Orientals, Incas, etc etc. Did God create them to exclude them from eternal life? Or were they created by a different God?

What makes our culture so special in the eyes of the Lord that He needed to sacrifice His son to save us from our sins? Is our culture so sinful that we need to be saved...and those of other cultures are less sinful and do not require Jesus for salvation?

I wonder about these kinds of questions. I have been told how God works is something I can never understand. He has no need to explain Himself. And if He did, we could not comprehend it.

Still, in the little pea brain He has given me, He gives me the ability to ask questions.

[dannyd]

So, how do you reconcile the fate of people from cultures that could not know of God or Jesus until missionaries visited them? For example, Native Americans, Aborigines, Orientals, Incas, etc etc. Did God create them to exclude them from eternal life? Or were they created by a different God?

What makes our culture so special in the eyes of the Lord that He needed to sacrifice His son to save us from our sins? Is our culture so sinful that we need to be saved...and those of other cultures are less sinful and do not require Jesus for salvation?

I wonder about these kinds of questions. I have been told how God works is something I can never understand. He has no need to explain Himself. And if He did, we could not comprehend it.

Still, in the little pea brain He has given me, He gives me the ability to ask questions.

Christ was a Jew, with dark skin and Africa looks. How do you know that the other people have not been told the truth in their our language and didn't paid it any attention to it. It may have happened 2000 years ago.

[Ickisrulz]

So, how do you reconcile the fate of people from cultures that could not know of God or Jesus until missionaries visited them? For example, Native Americans, Aborigines, Orientals, Incas, etc etc. Did God create them to exclude them from eternal life? Or were they created by a different God?

What makes our culture so special in the eyes of the Lord that He needed to sacrifice His son to save us from our sins? Is our culture so sinful that we need to be saved...and those of other cultures are less sinful and do not require Jesus for salvation?

I wonder about these kinds of questions. I have been told how God works is something I can never understand. He has no need to explain Himself. And if He did, we could not comprehend it.

Still, in the little pea brain He has given me, He gives me the ability to ask questions.

What culture are you talking about? Do you think there is a Christian culture or are you thinking of the West?

The Gospel has gone out into all the world and there are Christians in every culture I know of. Perhaps isolated groups have not been reached.

I know that you have a different understanding of the Bible than I have. But in my reading I see no loopholes for those that have not heard the Gospel (if anyone knows differently, I'll take a look at it). This is why it is so important to carry the message to everyone. If those that have not heard get a pass, why spread the Gospel?

[Dieselhorses]

I am by no means an authority (I am a Christian though) on the Bible, I'm not a preacher and lastly I ain't judging anyone (that is God's job!) But the way it was always taught to me (Baptist), when ALL the land (everywhere) hears the gospel then Christ will launch His second coming. Not even Jesus knows when He'll be making his debut-but only His Father. I was saved when I was 11 in a little Baptist church because my little brother walked to the front when the invitation was given and I wanted what he wanted! I wasn't sorry! Of course we are human, we live around temptation everyday. We make mistakes, sin, give in to things we did before but there is still forgiveness. I'm not saying "live like you want" and sleep at night knowing you are still going to Heaven! After one is saved, the Holy Spirit follows you, lives inside you and does everything to guide your conscience. I have many times quenched or tried to muffle what that Spirit was telling me but in the end I had to come clean.

God knows our hearts better than we do our own.

Romans 10:9-13 ESV

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

[Hickory]

This thread is a good example of the poor job that religious leaders have been doing for their flock.
Some of you have a handle on salvation and punishment, others only know what they "believe".
"Study to show yourself approved," remember, the soul is eternal. Where it will exist after physical death is decided by your actions while you are here on earth. Sorry, no second chances after death.

[Electric88]

So, how do you reconcile the fate of people from cultures that could not know of God or Jesus until missionaries visited them? For example, Native Americans, Aborigines, Orientals, Incas, etc etc. Did God create them to exclude them from eternal life? Or were they created by a different God?

What makes our culture so special in the eyes of the Lord that He needed to sacrifice His son to save us from our sins? Is our culture so sinful that we need to be saved...and those of other cultures are less sinful and do not require Jesus for salvation?

I wonder about these kinds of questions. I have been told how God works is something I can never understand. He has no need to explain Himself. And if He did, we could not comprehend it.

Still, in the little pea brain He has given me, He gives me the ability to ask questions.

Romans 1:20 says "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." I.e., God can/does reveal Himself to all, though it may not be through the avenue of missionaries necessarily.

Regarding those who are not saved, the Bible makes it fairly clear that those souls will exist in state of being separated from God. That is the true torment, having the Spirit of God separated from yours, and existing without it.

[dverna]

What culture are you talking about? Do you think there is a Christian culture or are you thinking of the West?

The Gospel has gone out into all the world and there are Christians in every culture I know of. Perhaps isolated groups have not been reached.

I know that you have a different understanding of the Bible than I have. But in my reading I see no loopholes for those that have not heard the Gospel (if anyone knows differently, I'll take a look at it). This is why it is so important to carry the message to everyone. If those that have not heard get a pass, why spread the Gospel?

I cannot make it any clearer than my last post....sorry my communication skills are poor. Vast areas of our world were inhabited before Jesus was born and before the Bible was written. These areas, and the people therein, are not mentioned and it appears none were visited by the 12 Jesus chose to spread the Word....or their visits there were not recorded(????). So what happened to the generations of people who died before the Word was brought to them by missionaries?

Would God **** them to Satan, or, as I understand you believe, just allow their souls to cease to exist?

[Electric88]

I cannot make it any clearer than my last post....sorry my communication skills are poor. Vast areas of our world were inhabited before Jesus was born and before the Bible was written. These areas, and the people therein, are not mentioned and it appears none were visited by the 12 Jesus chose to spread the Word....or their visits there were not recorded(????). So what happened to the generations of people who died before the Word was brought to them by missionaries?

Would God **** them to Satan, or, as I understand you believe, just allow their souls to cease to exist?

I read a book (supplementary to the Bible) once called "Eternity in their hearts". It offered what I thought to be a sound and reasonable answer to the question of "What happens to those who never are visited by missionaries, etc". It's not very long, and is an interesting read. I'm not saying it should be viewed as gospel, but it certainly expounds on some ideas.

[dverna]

Romans 1:20 says "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." I.e., God can/does reveal Himself to all, though it may not be through the avenue of missionaries necessarily.

Regarding those who are not saved, the Bible makes it fairly clear that those souls will exist in state of being separated from God. That is the true torment, having the Spirit of God separated from yours, and existing without it.

That makes some sense. All cultures had gods or spirits....not “the” God as they could not have known of Him. These false gods stood in for God until the Word came to them. There souls would be saved even though they honored the gods they knew.

God loves all his children. I cannot fathom a God that denies eternal life to those who would have had no way to know the Word. I may be incorrect, and what I want to believe may be false, but I hope our Father would not do that.

[Electric88]

That makes some sense. All cultures had gods or spirits....not “the” God as they could not have known of Him. These false gods stood in for God until the Word came to them. There souls would be saved even though they honored the gods they knew.

God loves all his children. I cannot fathom a God that denies eternal life to those who would have had no way to know the Word. I may be incorrect, and what I want to believe may be false, but I hope our Father would not do that.

There is one particular story in that book about the Inca in Peru. I can't recall all the details, but there was a particular ruler at one point who allegedly believed in a god that was above all of the other gods. I forget what the original name was or how it was translated, but it was believed that this translation alluded to the one true God as we know Him. Because the rulers of those tribes were seen almost as deities themselves, they were able to shape how the people worshipped. This particular ruler was able to steer his people to worship the one god and left the other ones on the wayside. It was all reversed later by other rulers, but so it goes.

Again, this is all recounting and should be taken with a grain of salt. But there are plenty of wild stories out there about peoples in secluded regions who receive "visitations" of a sort that would indicate they were of God and had knowledge of Him.

[Wayne Smith]

No, it is given only to those He has chosen. We know not how or why He chooses but His choice is perfect.

[Electric88]

No, it is given only to those He has chosen. We know not how or why He chooses but His choice is perfect.

This statement would imply there are individuals He has not chosen. I would not agree with that. Salvation is freely given to all, but it is on us to accept that gift and nurture the relationship with Jesus.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
God says the creation reveals Him and all His handy work. But most are not interested. To accept the fact that God exists makes us responsible to our Creature. OPPs there goes "doing my own thing". Being responsible for my evil, self centered, my way first self is no fun. Be different from all my friends ! Goes against the easy flow "don't make waves" be like the masses is so easy. Party time !!! Sorry God this is my life !

The Gospel of John clearly states the Lord Jesus is the Creature of all things. So does Colossians chapter one. So our Creator / God comes to His Creation in a perfect human body (not sinful / rebellion orientated) to suffer the price of our sins / willful rebellions.
John 5:39 Study with all your being the scriptures and you will find they point to Him as the only Savior / God. He said come to me and be saved. He said Follow me (live like Me doing the will of the Father). He said enter in (Walk in my Truth.. not what you like). He said You call me Lord, then Obey Me and come My way. You cannot love the way the world is living in sin and think you please God.
He said All or nothing. Hot or cold. Lukewarm is not acceptable. The real deal or on your own. "But It's my life". Well accept the consequences. God does not condemn anyone to the place of torments. People choose to refuse His way and off you go. Every flood year the road gets blocked and some try anyway. The choice is yours and mine.

But I am not as bad as my neighbor ! Neither are you perfect. Evil thoughts, desires, What can you do to get those filthy spots washed off yourself. You need a Blood Sacrifice from a perfect Human Person. Dirty blood will not work either. It must be perfect, unspotted, no contamination. Ever wonder why the Lord Jesus had to die a bloody, horrible painful death ? For Us. His blood Sacrifice washes us from all sin. His Blood Sacrifice makes us clean and acceptable in the presence of Holy Pure God. Not your good works or getting dunked in a river.

So why all the suffering in the world... Why do most people forget God and think He will protect from a world that has been infected with all our historical rebellious ways of life. Earth is suffering all the results of man kinds history of refusing God's way of living. God said Listen to Me and I will Bless the land.... Well historically people refused and we have the results. You can trust the doctor and take the meds. Or you can say "I know better and you get what you choose. Plant weeds and do not expect corn. Do your own thing.. but how much damage are you causing to yourself and everything you touch.

Sure stay in a burning house... but when there is a way to escape why wait. You may not get the opportunity to change your mind. There is no promise that you get tomorrow. When I am old and near death some think... But a heart attack is far more common and car crashes are near instant.

"Come unto Him... Today is the acceptable day of Salvation. You may not get a tomorrow. But don't blame God. You choose your path and continue to do so daily. It is the same for me. Everyday I choose who I will walk with. I choose to go with my Creature / God Who loves us all beyond my words. Still with opens arms and love He says Come to Me and I will give you the Life you do not have and will never find going your own way. Little children Trust in the Lord Jesus with simple Faith that He is Truth and real Love. I was 21 and near missed it all. But it is all True. I have no regrets deciding I had enough of rebellion, doing my own thing, being empty, being alone and knowing I was on my own heading the way of the world into even more darkness. Your choice. I continue to make my personal choice daily with no remorse but full of joy and peace in His Truth and Promises. He does not lie or change. Only men and religion do that.
Mike in Peru

[Thundarstick]

Act 17:26-31

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

You can read the whole chapter, but I've always taken this to mean that God does indeed have a way to judge those, who through ignorance, ie not heard, in a righteous manor. It appears the reason ALL mankind worships someone higher, is that God himself put this desire in our spirit so that, no matter what race or culture a human belongs to. So, can one be judged outside the book of life? It appears to me one can, but will be required one to stand on their own righteousness, and that would be a very tall order to fill.

[Dieselhorses]

This thread is a good example of the poor job that religious leaders have been doing for their flock.
Some of you have a handle on salvation and punishment, others only believe what they "know".
"Study to show yourself approved," remember, the soul is eternal. Where it will exist after physical death is decided by your actions while you are here on earth. Sorry, no second chances after death.

Everybody has an opinion, and you are correct "IMO" about "Study to show yourself approved" and I'll add that this "approval" is in the eyes of God-not people? If we had to rely on an approval rating from "people" we'd be up the creek! The objective, which you pretty much summarized cleverly is that YES, the soul IS eternal, it goes on forever either one place or another. Not going to make any judgements or say "yeah, this is the correct way to go to Heaven, or do all this and you can stay out of hell", but me personally, as with many others would rather have a stake in the promises God made to us than to decide "Oh, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it"! (could be devastating).

DISCLAIMER: I mean no judgement, criticism, stereotyping, biasness, singling out, insults, offensiveness etc.

[sniper]

For the answer to this, I regress to my earliest years in Sunday School, when we sang "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world; Red and Yellow, Black and White, they are precious in his sight; Jesus loves the little children of the world." True statement.
And, I believe, He loves all the Peoples of the world.

My favorite Bible scripture that I memorized more than 70 years ago in the first grade, is John 3:16, and the mostly overlooked companion, verse 17, which reads;"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." To me, not an exclusionary statement.

I accept that Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden for disobeying one of God's commandments. As a result, two things happened. First, they suffered a spiritual death...they could no longer enjoy the actual presence of the LORD, and as promised, they would suffer physical death. This is the future of all people on the earth at this time.

But, the LORD in his love and mercy, provided our Savior, His literal Son, Jesus Christ to overcome both of these conditions. Now, this is not to debate how it was possible. I just know that God will not break one of his own laws, and in some to me, not yet understood way, the Savior's birth occurred properly, as had been foretold for thousands of years. Not only did the Children of Israel know, but scholars throughout the world knew.

The Savior came to overcome physical death, and provide a way for all who have ever or will ever live on the Earth to return to our Heavenly Father. This He did most magnificently in the Garden of Gethsemane, when He, knowing the answer, asked "Is there no other way?", then said "Not my will, but thine." And later, on the cross, he fulfilled his destiny. As a dual being...both human and divine, his remark that no man taketh my life, I give up my life had special meaning. What he did for us was entirely His choice!

Job (19:26) and Isaiah (26:19) knew what Jesus would do for us. As Paul ( 1 Cor. 5:22)taught; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

"HE is risen." Matt. 28:6 Wonderful message! Mark 16:5-6 "...and he (an Angel) saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified: He is risen; He is not here..." But then, as now some are hard of understanding, and can/do/will not believe it! Nevertheless, because by Adam came death upon the entire human family, through Christ's Atoning Sacrifice all mankind will be resurrected, and live eternally. Now, the state to which the resurrected beings will be assigned is the Lord's to judge, but as promised, there are "many mansions" in the Kingdom of God.

I agree with this statement:
"I do not believe in a God who would set up rules and commandments only to wait for us to fail so He could punish us. I believe in a Heavenly Father who is loving and caring and who rejoices in our every effort to stand tall and walk toward Him."
-Dieter F. Uchtdorf-

I apologize for the length, but, as in another song from my youth; "I love to tell the story!"

[mozeppa]

i would think many souls will make it to heaven even though they were never exposed to god in any fashion.

Jesus's mother mary was found to be acceptable to the lord to carry Jesus...so what was her faith up til that?

[rl69]

Or paul

But look at their faith after they were chosen

[popper]

So, how do you reconcile the fate of people from cultures that could not know of God or Jesus until missionaries visited them?
If you assume Adam was created by God, all of his descendants would be able to know about God. Obviously they didn't as the flood came.
And all that claim Jesus will not enter.
If Abraham was with God, then his 'bosom' would be with God also. There is no real evidence of a Purgatory, it was shunned by Luther as a money making idea of the leaders of the Catholic church.

[Ickisrulz]

i would think many souls will make it to heaven even though they were never exposed to god in any fashion.

Jesus's mother mary was found to be acceptable to the lord to carry Jesus...so what was her faith up til that?

Her response to the angel suggests her faith was immense, as was Joseph's.

[Tom W.]

Without looking it up, chapter and verse, one of the verses in the OT states that "it was accounted unto him for righteousness." I believe the reference was to Abraham.
And remember in the OT Elijah walked with God, and was no more.
People have always been able to accept Christ, I know I'm babbling a bit, but it was foretold long years ago. I'm not going to pretend I remember every book of the bible but There are references to Christ in Genesis.

[Ickisrulz]

Without looking it up, chapter and verse, one of the verses in the OT states that "it was accounted unto him for righteousness." I believe the reference was to Abraham.
And remember in the OT Elijah walked with God, and was no more.
People have always been able to accept Christ, I know I'm babbling a bit, but it was foretold long years ago. I'm not going to pretend I remember every book of the bible but There are references to Christ in Genesis.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. What did he believe? That God would fulfill his promise of land and descendants. It had nothing to do with the promised Savior. It is doubtful Abraham knew of this (Gen 3:15).

[Tom W.]

But we can only speculate. What we think ain't necessarily so.

[Dieselhorses]

In Genesis 3 vs 22-24 Adam & Eve are driven from the Garden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life. In Revelation 2 v 7 our Lord says "to the one who is victorious I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Are men mortal both physically (obviously) and spiritually? When John writes in Rev 20 v 14 that the lake of fire is the second death, it sounds as if he is saying that men are mortal and are destroyed. How do you see this ?

I can't believe I missed this but Adam and Eve was not driven from the garden to "prevent" them from eating the fruit. They were cast from the garden when their "eyes were opened" because they did eat the fruit.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV

[Ickisrulz]

I can't believe I missed this but Adam and Eve was not driven from the garden to "prevent" them from eating the fruit. They were cast from the garden when their "eyes were opened" because they did eat the fruit.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV

Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life. God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery.

"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Gen 3:22

[Dieselhorses]

Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden to deny them access to the Tree of Life. God did not want man living forever in his fallen state. A fallen state brought hardships and misery.

"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Gen 3:22

So they were expelled to keep them from eating more...

Genesis 3:11-14
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Ickisrulz]

So they were expelled to keep them from eating more...

Genesis 3:11-14
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

There were two trees with names. The Tree of Knowledge (hich was forbidden) and the Tree of Life, which we can assume they ate from freely and it gave them eternal life.

Having eaten from the forbidden tree, they were no longer allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. They now had to die.

[Dieselhorses]

There were two trees with names. The Tree of Knowledge (hich was forbidden) and the Tree of Life, which we can assume they ate from freely and it gave them eternal life.

Having eaten from the forbidden tree, they were no longer allowed to eat from the Tree of Life. They now had to die.

My bad, gotcha.

[Rizzo]

"Is eternal life given only to believers?"

Our true nature is Spirit, an image of God.
We, as Spirit, already are "eternal" beings, like God.
No one is sent to hell for eternity.

[Ickisrulz]

"Is eternal life given only to believers?"

Our true nature is Spirit, an image of God.
We, as Spirit, already are "eternal" beings, like God.
No one is sent to hell for eternity.

Do you have any biblical references to support your statements?

[Rizzo]

Do you have any biblical references to support your statements?

This is a Theological Discussion forum. Not a Bible study forum.
There are many God loving belief systems out there.
I suspect that you may be one of those who believe that "If it isn't in the Bible, then it isn't true."
That's fine, but for me, having read the whole Bible, I find it lacking in some areas that need more clarification.

What are you hung up on?.....the issue of us being eternal beings (Spirit)?
or, that no one is sent to "hell" for eternity?

[Ickisrulz]

This is a Theological Discussion forum. Not a Bible study forum.
There are many God loving belief systems out there.
I suspect that you may be one of those who believe that "If it isn't in the Bible, then it isn't true."
That's fine, but for me, having read the whole Bible, I find it lacking in some areas that need more clarification.

What are you hung up on?.....the issue of us being eternal beings (Spirit)?
or, that no one is sent to "hell" for eternity?

Yes, since I am a Christian, the Bible is my authority for faith and conduct.

So where did you get your ideas?

[Rizzo]

Yes, since I am a Christian, the Bible is my authority for faith and conduct.

So where did you get your ideas?

Ideas?
Do you get your "ideas" from the Bible?.....or are they beliefs?
Do you read other readings to get some clarification on what is said in the Bible, so that hopefully you will get a better understanding of what is written?
I think that many do, including myself.
The apostles certainly didn't understand some of what Jesus was preaching.
To paraphrase.................While Jesus was preaching/talking, some apostles quietly said to each other...What the heck is He talking about?
Jesus' intuitive mind could "hear" that discussion and addressed the apostles concerns.

BTW, still waiting on some answers from my previous reply:
"What are you hung up on?.....the issue of us being eternal beings (Spirit)?
or, that no one is sent to "hell" for eternity?"

[rl69]

This is a Theological Discussion forum. Not a Bible study forum.
There are many God loving belief systems out there.
I suspect that you may be one of those who believe that "If it isn't in the Bible, then it isn't true."
That's fine, but for me, having read the whole Bible, I find it lacking in some areas that need more clarification.

What are you hung up on?.....the issue of us being eternal beings (Spirit)?
or, that no one is sent to "hell" for eternity?

If we are eternal beings where are non believers going to spend eternity ?

[Ickisrulz]

Do you read other readings to get some clarification on what is said in the Bible, so that hopefully you will get a better understanding of what is written?

BTW, still waiting on some answers from my previous reply:
"What are you hung up on?.....the issue of us being eternal beings (Spirit)?
or, that no one is sent to "hell" for eternity?"

Yes, I do. I even have a degree in biblical studies.

1. “Our true nature is Spirit, an image of God.” Being made in the image of God means we have intellect, will and emotion. It does not mean we have the same type of existence. We have a physical body that places limits on us. For example, we can only be in one place at a time. A physical body is essential to man’s being. Man is not complete without it. We have one during our life on earth and will receive a resurrected body in the future.

2. “We, as Spirit, already are "eternal" beings, like God.” This statement assume a quality about spirits that we just do not know (i.e., spirits are eternal). Only God is eternal within himself. Eternal means no beginning and no end, so a difference is already apparent. All life comes from God and is perpetuated by his life. We have absolutely nothing without God and this includes our existence.


3. “No one is sent to hell for eternity.” You didn’t clarify this statement. There are three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. I lean toward the second explanation. Where do you?

[Rizzo]

Yes, I do. I even have a degree in biblical studies.

1. “Our true nature is Spirit, an image of God.” Being made in the image of God means we have intellect, will and emotion. It does not mean we have the same type of existence. We have a physical body that places limits on us. For example, we can only be in one place at a time. A physical body is essential to man’s being. Man is not complete without it. We have one during our life on earth and will receive a resurrected body in the future.

2. “We, as Spirit, already are "eternal" beings, like God.” This statement assume a quality about spirits that we just do not know (i.e., spirits are eternal). Only God is eternal within himself. Eternal means no beginning and no end, so a difference is already apparent. All life comes from God and is perpetuated by his life. We have absolutely nothing without God and this includes our existence.


3. “No one is sent to hell for eternity.” You didn’t clarify this statement. There are three schools of thought on what God will do with the wicked. The first is that the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins. The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated. The final is that eventually everyone will be saved. I lean toward the second explanation. Where do you?

Getting back to the statement "If it isn't in the Bible it isn't true."
OK, but yet we seek clarification or insight what was said or we read other's opinions on the meaning of a particular chapter or verse in the Bible and hopefully the fog clears and we have a better understanding on the topic. All is good.
However, we find that understanding from another source, such as from another book. But because those words that gave us the understanding were not in the Bible, then by the above statement it makes our other source untrue.
That statement is too broad, in my opinion. Einstein's theory of relativity isn't in the Bible so does that make it untrue?
See what I mean?

Regarding 1. & 2.:
To me you are suggesting we are a physical being. That is true in a sense but what about the generalization that when we die we go to heaven? What goes to heaven? There is a part of us that "lives" on after death. It is not the physical body but the Spirit, Soul, call it what you want. It is that which is eternal.

3.
Excuse my ignorance but I do not recall the Bible giving three possible explanations on what happens to us (our Spirit, Soul, etc.) after we die.
"...the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins."
By unsaved I suspect that you mean any non-Christians. That is, everyone goes to hell for eternity if you are not Christian.
Ah-h-h, I don't think so. This would include a rabbi that dedicated his life to God and spreading His Word to others and helping them find God. Then when he dies, because he was not Christian he goes to hell.
The Bible passage that states "....no one gets to the Father except through me (Christ)" is the mantra that Christians cite that is grossly misunderstood, in my opinion. It makes a statement that some Christians use to arrogantly say that their belief is the true belief and everyone else is going to hell.

"The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated."
I realize that this is what you believe but, respectfully, this makes no sense to me. Make them suffer first, then kill'em. Nope.

"The final is that eventually everyone will be saved."
This is my belief.

[Rizzo]

If we are eternal beings where are non believers going to spend eternity ?

See my reply above for further info, but:
"The final is that eventually everyone will be saved."
This is my belief.

[Ickisrulz]

Getting back to the statement "If it isn't in the Bible it isn't true."
OK, but yet we seek clarification or insight what was said or we read other's opinions on the meaning of a particular chapter or verse in the Bible and hopefully the fog clears and we have a better understanding on the topic. All is good.
However, we find that understanding from another source, such as from another book. But because those words that gave us the understanding were not in the Bible, then by the above statement it makes our other source untrue.
That statement is too broad, in my opinion. Einstein's theory of relativity isn't in the Bible so does that make it untrue?
See what I mean?

Regarding 1. & 2.:
To me you are suggesting we are a physical being. That is true in a sense but what about the generalization that when we die we go to heaven? What goes to heaven? There is a part of us that "lives" on after death. It is not the physical body but the Spirit, Soul, call it what you want. It is that which is eternal.

3.
Excuse my ignorance but I do not recall the Bible giving three possible explanations on what happens to us (our Spirit, Soul, etc.) after we die.
"...the unsaved will go to hell forever and ever where they will be punished continually for their sins."
By unsaved I suspect that you mean any non-Christians. That is, everyone goes to hell for eternity if you are not Christian.
Ah-h-h, I don't think so. This would include a rabbi that dedicated his life to God and spreading His Word to others and helping them find God. Then when he dies, because he was not Christian he goes to hell.
The Bible passage that states "....no one gets to the Father except through me (Christ)" is the mantra that Christians cite that is grossly misunderstood, in my opinion. It makes a statement that some Christians use to arrogantly say that their belief is the true belief and everyone else is going to hell.

"The second is that the unsaved will be punished for a period of time and then be obliterated."
I realize that this is what you believe but, respectfully, this makes no sense to me. Make them suffer first, then kill'em. Nope.

"The final is that eventually everyone will be saved."
This is my belief.

I don't believe I've ever said that "if it's not in the Bible, it's not true." I said the Bible is the authority for faith and conduct for Christians. All truth is God's truth.

I guess we'll disagree on whether a soul is everlasting and whether or not man is essentially a spirit. I made my case as best I could.

The Bible does not state three possibilities for the lost. People have interpreted the material in three different ways. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins and eventual annihilation. God warned Adam and Eve that death would follow disobedience (not eternal torment). John the Baptist's and Jesus' comments about the wicked being burned up like agricultural waste suggests they will cease to exist. When we combine these ideas with the fact that the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day, we arrive at "punishment followed by obliteration."

The Bible's message is that all members of the human race are lost. In order to be saved, a person must hear the Gospel, accept it and make a commitment to God through Christ. I see no loopholes in Scripture despite the fact the some people ostensibly live righteous and good lives (but have never heard or have rejected the Gospel). I know this is a hard thing for people to accept. This is the reason the Gospel has been spread over the last 2,000 years at Christ's command.

[Rizzo]

I don't believe I've ever said that "if it's not in the Bible, it's not true." I said the Bible is the authority for faith and conduct for Christians. All truth is God's truth.

I guess we'll disagree on whether a soul is everlasting and whether or not man is essentially a spirit. I made my case as best I could.

The Bible does not state three possibilities for the lost. People have interpreted the material in three different ways. The least biblical of the three is the eventual salvation of everyone. The most biblical, in my judgement, is limited punishment for sins and eventual annihilation. God warned Adam and Eve that death would follow disobedience (not eternal torment). John the Baptist's and Jesus' comments about the wicked being burned up like agricultural waste suggests they will cease to exist. When we combine these ideas with the fact that the New Testament clearly talks about degrees of punishment at judgement day, we arrive at "punishment followed by obliteration."

The Bible's message is that all members of the human race are lost. In order to be saved, a person must hear the Gospel, accept it and make a commitment to God through Christ. I see no loopholes in Scripture despite the fact the some people ostensibly live righteous and good lives (but have never heard or have rejected the Gospel). I know this is a hard thing for people to accept. This is the reason the Gospel has been spread over the last 2,000 years at Christ's command.

Good discussion of sharing beliefs/ideas.
Thanks.

[rl69]

10/4 ..... thank you

[Ohiopatriot]

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[wmitty]

I guess my next question would be: how many different ways to eternal life is our Creator obligated to provide for mankind? If we are all rebels and sinners who have committed cosmic treason against our Creator by our disobedience and are all crying out for justice rather than the mercy our God extends to those He is pleased to give it to, what will that justice consist of?

[1hole]

....Not even Jesus knows when He'll be making his debut-but only His Father. Really? But maybe you have always always been taught more about that verse than what it says and, therefore, what Jesus actually meant when he said it.

Jesus, the self identified son of man, made that statement when he was still alive on earth and living as a man, i.e., human. Doesn't the very definition of our spiritual triune God demand that each person of the Trinity be all holy, all powerful and all knowing?

We KNOW Jesus set his (spiritual) Godship aside when he was conceived. He was born, grew up, learned, lived, preached and died as a human under the Law. He consistently referred to himself as the son of man and, as a man, he only preached what the Father told him to reveal.

As a human, Jesus didn't know when he would return ... and that's all he said. But now, as fully God, I'd bet both he AND the Holy Spirit know and have always known when he will return.

Consider: IF, as God, Jesus knows "all things" but doesn't know when he will return wouldn't that single lack of knowledge disqualify him as being fully God? I mean if Jesus, Son Of God spirit, ever was and remains ignorant of any one fact could he truly be co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit? I doubt you actually question that he is.

We should never ignore anything in scripture. But, ... we should never go beyond what it actually says NOR can we rightly ignore the context of what we read in order to support our beliefs. There be more than enough dragons and religious cults in the world to do that! :)

[barnabus]

All souls have eternal life.
Some will spend it in Heaven, the rest will spend it in (the other place.)

this is truth

[Wally]

See my reply above for further info, but:
"The final is that eventually everyone will be saved."
This is my belief.

I heard a sermon from a well know Baptist preacher on this....if everyone will be saved...what was the point of the death of Jesus; why would we need a Savior?

[exile]

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40, N.A.S.B.

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,..." Hebrews 9:27, N.A.S.B.

I know that I don't want to be judged for my sins, not when there is a blessed alternative, freely given, in the death and resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Why would you?

As we sit here engaged in endless debate, men and women are passing into a Christ-less eternity, without hope and without God. I implore you, do not be among that number. Stop debating, and ask Christ into your heart, now. Only then can you be sure that you will have eternal life in the presence of the Father.

[cas]

You're getting it whether you like it or not, in fact you already have it and have had it.

[Rizzo]

I heard a sermon from a well know Baptist preacher on this....if everyone will be saved...what was the point of the death of Jesus; why would we need a Savior?

Well, I guess it boils down to what one believes.
A Jew believes one thing, a Hindu another, a Muslim another, a Christian yet another belief system.
Jesus died for our sins say the Christians.
Does that mean we have a free pass to heaven so we can whoop it up and party and ignore good behavior?
No, as far as I'm concerned. We are accountable for what we do (sins). There is no free pass.

So what happens when we die?
A person's belief system tells them what will happen and it varies.
For example, reincarnation believers say that we come back until we work out all the desires and bad karma we had in the previous life. Ultimately we "perfect" ourselves to a point that we can move on from this material world into the spiritual realms.

So, from your Christian outlook, I understand what you are asking, but I do not think it is that simple.
Throw in mistranslated or misunderstood Bible passages just confuses things more, in my opinion.

Lots of belief systems out there, which one is correct?
Oh, the Christian view of course!
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

[468]

Rizzo, I do think the answer is much simpler than most of us want to admit. It seems many want to declare some sort of exclusivity based on their interpretation of an ancient “ rule book”.

If one were to live one’s life by Christ’s teachings, yet never truly being aware of those teachings, is he any less a Christian than one who is well versed in the New Testiment?

Do we truly believe, or do we just accept because someone of authority, or who we think is smarter, says it’s the truth?

Salvation is for all good souls. Not just those who believe what someone else says they should.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo, I do think the answer is much simpler than most of us want to admit. It seems many want to declare some sort of exclusivity based on their interpretation of an ancient “ rule book”.

If one were to live one’s life by Christ’s teachings, yet never truly being aware of those teachings, is he any less a Christian than one who is well versed in the New Testiment?

Do we truly believe, or do we just accept because someone of authority, or who we think is smarter, says it’s the truth?

Salvation is for all good souls. Not just those who believe what someone else says they should.

I am no authority on any of this, but do have an opinion.

Regarding living ones life by Christ's teachings, without knowing Christ's teachings is somewhat confusing.
If the ideals a person lives by are found to be what Christ taught, then I would say you are on the right track.
Some would say you are not a Christian though because of things like not being baptized or "saved" or personally accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour, yada, yada, yada.

"Do we truly believe....?" Good question.
Believe definition: to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so: Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully.

The "we" part is a little broad since that is bundling everyone together.
I feel that those in different belief systems firmly "believe" what their teachings say but do they (we) really know for sure? For instance, as a child we are raised in our parents culture or religious belief system and accept it as you mentioned because of "someone in authority".
That is probably also true for some Truth seekers that go to a church, or hear someone speak or read a book from someone who "knows" what the truth is, or so they say, so they latch on to what is said because it makes sense to them.

I think that we all have an intuitive feeling as to what is right or wrong despite what Rabbi Ray or Preacher Joe says.
For those that do not, then going by what life's owners manual, or "rule book" (the Bible, for some) says is a good foundational start.

[468]

Rizzo, well said.

[exile]

Some years ago, a man named John Walvoord was asked to write a book delineating every known prophecy in the Bible, with an explanation of what it meant, and whether it had been fulfilled or not. He did so, pointing out at the time of the book's publication that over half of the prophecies discussed had already been fulfilled.

No other religions writings can make that claim.

Yes, we are asked to accept Christ by faith, however, we are not left with that alone. There is evidence to support the claims of the Christian faith, if only we will look for it, examine it with an open mind, and ask God, in an attitude of prayer, to show us the truth.

Prophecies which make the claim that Christ was, and is God have been fulfilled. Prophecies which predict His Second Coming are being fulfilled daily, at an ever increasing pace.

I am not asking you to take my word for this. Instead, investigate the claims of Christ for yourself.

Christ did claim to be God, and he paid for that claim with His life. Christ also claimed that He would return at the end of the age to rescue His own from the coming judgment, and prophecy is being fulfilled daily in such a way as to validate that claim also.

What will your response be to the claims of Christ? You cannot remain on the fence forever, however much you might wish to.

As Billy Graham used to say, sooner or later, there comes in every life, "An hour of Decision".

[1hole]

... Are men mortal both physically (obviously) and spiritually? When John writes in Rev 20 v 14 that the lake of fire is the second death, it sounds as if he is saying that men are mortal and are destroyed. How do you see this ?
Good questions, the answers are not transparent so none of us can rightly be dogmatic about it but ... I think it can be rightly answered in a way that takes account of everything the Bible says about it.

First, scripture says the soul/spirit of all mankind is immortal. It also says that everyone will be resurrected and granted new (physical) everlasting bodies. Differences is where and how those bodies will be for eternity - and WE make that decision for ourselves before our first death. (See John 3:18)

Now, there is little argument about the life of resurrected believers and being eternally with our Lord in God's Heaven. But few of us - including minsters - pay much attention to what is written about the fate of the lost; that makes the "second death" puzzling.

So, I define the second death as being eternally separated from God, including ALL of the good things that brings, specifically including but not limited to the following.

Heaven: No pain, no weaknesses
Hell: Constant pain, weakness
Heaven: Clear, bright sunny days
Hell: Eternally dark
Heaven: Fellowship with friends
Hell: Solitary confinement
Heaven: No decay or sickness
Hell: Constant corruption, worms
Heaven: Eternal songs of joy
Hell: Eternal moans, groans, wailing

Thus, the second death isn't being dead as we know it but an eternal life devoid of the good things of God. And THAT is a fate worse than death.

God is just. He will not punish everyone to the same hell. Instead each person called before the Great White Throne will be judged by what he/she did in life. I believe the hottest parts of Lake of Fire was the intended end of Satan (Lucifer) and his henchmen. Those humans who contributed to Satan's cause in major ways (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.) are likely to be imprisoned next to their leader.

Unlike what the "fire and brimstone" preachers say, those lost souls who lived humanly moral and kind lives will NOT be seated in hell with the worst. To say otherwise would mean (1) God is not just and (2) there would be no real punishment for the workers of evil. Both are blasphemy.

Those who say there will be an eventual anilliation of those in the eternal hell simply aren't reading what the Bible says about it. And I, for one, don't think God much cares what men may say.

[exile]

'"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool."' Isaiah 1:18 (N.A.S.B.)

[Ickisrulz]

Those who say there will be an eventual anilliation of those in the eternal hell simply aren't reading what the Bible says about it.

Oh, I don't know about that. I have studied quite a bit and lean toward annihilation. There's evidence that points to both positions, but I give God the benefit of the doubt in the matter.

"The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death. I suppose they had seen animals die. God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment. In fact, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden so they would not live forever in their fallen state. They died.

The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally. I clean up dead branches all the time by burning them. Once they are burned up, they cease to exist.

[1hole]

Oh, I don't know about that. I have studied quite a bit and lean toward annihilation. There's evidence that points to both positions, but I give God the benefit of the doubt in the matter.

What "Doubt in the matter", what am I missing?

I know of no Biblical support for annihilation of the human soul, in fact the reverse is true ... repeatedly.


"The day you eat of the fruit, you will die." How did Adam and Eve understand the concept of death. I suppose they had seen animals die.

I fully agree that A & E probably had no concept of physical death; after all, it was they who brought physical death into the world. But it was the human body God said would die (until resurrection) while the human soul/spirit of all of us is as immortal as God himself.


God gave no suggestion of everlasting torment.

No?? My Bibles say otherwise. And I've been through them page by page, including Numbers! :)


They died.

Well, their bodies sure died and will remain so until the resurrection of both lost and saved when body, soul and spirit will be reunited for eternal heaven or hell, each with living bodies. That's not my idea, it's in the Book.


The idea of everlasting torment came from taking Jesus' parables much too literally.

Really? Yes, Jesus truly used non-literal parables to illustrate literal truths but it was his messages that were truth, not the stories themselves. BUT when Jesus gave his disciples a glimpse of what the eternal heaven and eternal hell will be like he was NOT speaking a parable, therefore I believe he meant exactly what he said.


I clean up dead branches all the time by burning them. Once they are burned up, they cease to exist.

No matter God ever created ever ceases to exist, all matter eventually returns to it's component elements; so, your burned limbs no longer exist as limbs but that's not a meaningful argument to this question. I see no reason to believe branches, or even animals, were made in the spiritual and physical (Jesus) image of eternal God. To take your idea to the logical end would have us all totally extinguished at the first, i.e. physical, death and that just isn't the way the Book says it will be!

Jesus, as the physical "son of man", spiritually died to pay the sin penalty for mankind but not to save us from our own physical death; thus we, like Adam, will die in this first death existence but our souls will never "die".

What Jesus did was experience the "spiritual" second death in our stead so we will never experience the hell of "life" apart from the good things of God and THAT'S the second (living) death hell of it!

When Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" and then, "It is finished" his physical task was done. At THAT moment Lord Jesus fully bought us for a price so we will never have to say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"!

There is full reason we know those people who reject Jesus in this life condemn themselves (John 3:18) to the second death of conscious existence in some level of eternally abandoned (hellish) physical punishment depending on what was done in life. That's not my idea but I know it's true because Jesus said it. And I sure don't have the gonads to tell him he was mistaken! :)

Sadly, the lost will have no easy escape by eternal annilation.

We, like ignorant Adam, cannot understand the first death, we cannot fully understand the living second death where physically resurrected lost people have been fairly judged before the Great White Throne to live forever in some proper level of misery.

That's why I first asked how people define death in my first post.

For scriptural info on the eternal living second death see:

Mark 9:44-48
Rom 2:5-16
Rev. 2:11; 20:6-15; 21:8

(Note that there is no suggestion in that for any soul/body to be burned to a crisp and thereby peacefully destroyed in the Lake of Fire.)

[Ickisrulz]

What "Doubt in the matter", what am I missing?

I know of no Biblical support for annihilation of the human soul, in fact the reverse is true ... repeatedly.



I fully agree that A & E probably had no concept of physical death; after all, it was they who brought physical death into the world. But it was the human body God said would die (until resurrection) while the human soul/spirit of all of us is as immortal as God himself.



No?? My Bibles say otherwise. And I've been through them page by page, including Numbers! :)



Well, their bodies sure died and will remain so until the resurrection of both lost and saved when body, soul and spirit will be reunited for eternal heaven or hell, each with living bodies. That's not my idea, it's in the Book.



Really? Yes, Jesus truly used non-literal parables to illustrate literal truths but it was his messages that were truth, not the stories themselves. BUT when Jesus gave his disciples a glimpse of what the eternal heaven and eternal hell will be like he was NOT speaking a parable, therefore I believe he meant exactly what he said.



No matter God ever created ever ceases to exist, all matter eventually returns to it's component elements; so, your burned limbs no longer exist as limbs but that's not a meaningful argument to this question. I see no reason to believe branches, or even animals, were made in the spiritual and physical (Jesus) image of eternal God. To take your idea to the logical end would have us all totally extinguished at the first, i.e. physical, death and that just isn't the way the Book says it will be!

Jesus, as the physical "son of man", spiritually died to pay the sin penalty for mankind but not to save us from our own physical death; thus we, like Adam, will die in this first death existence but our souls will never "die".

What Jesus did was experience the "spiritual" second death in our stead so we will never experience the hell of "life" apart from the good things of God and THAT'S the second (living) death hell of it!

When Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" and then, "It is finished" his physical task was done. At THAT moment Lord Jesus fully bought us for a price so we will never have to say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"!

There is full reason we know those people who reject Jesus in this life condemn themselves (John 3:18) to the second death of conscious existence in some level of eternally abandoned (hellish) physical punishment depending on what was done in life. That's not my idea but I know it's true because Jesus said it. And I sure don't have the gonads to tell him he was mistaken! :)

Sadly, the lost will have no easy escape by eternal annilation.

We, like ignorant Adam, cannot understand the first death, we cannot fully understand the living second death where physically resurrected lost people have been fairly judged before the Great White Throne to live forever in some proper level of misery.

That's why I first asked how people define death in my first post.

For scriptural info on the eternal living second death see:

Mark 9:44-48
Rom 2:15-16
Rev. 2:11; 20:6-15; 21:8

(Note that there is no suggestion in that for any soul/body to be burned to a crisp and thereby peacefully destroyed in the Lake of Fire.)

I doubt I can change your mind on the subject. I once believed as you do and it was the one thing that really bothered me about the character of God. John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me. So I researched the topic.

I found that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom. I have also looked at every passage of Scripture dealing with the disposition of sinners (with an open mind). I found that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever. The natural reading of these passages is obliteration.

I looked at the passages you referenced tonight. My comments are as follows.

Mark: The fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, but the sinner is not said to exist forever. The image is that God's judgement cannot be thwarted.

Romans: I am not sure why you suggested the Romans passage.

Rev: Revelations talks of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, but does not say they will exist forever. Satan and others are said to be tormented "forever and ever." However, the length of the torment is only said about Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, not the human lost. In reality there is no phrase in the Greek that means "forever and ever" as we understand it. The Greek says, "unto the ages of ages" suggesting a long time, but not necessarily eternally.

I could go on and on, but I think I have explained my understanding well enough in this thread. If this topic is something you would like to explore further, I recommend you pick up one of Edward Fudge's books that challenge the modern traditional views of hell. He is an easy read and quite comprehensive (not that there are that many passages to deal with). Fudge is not alone in his conclusions; in other words, he's not a wacko.

[1hole]

You make coherent counter arguments but I think it's all based on human logic rather than what the Word says. Consider this:


I doubt I can change your mind on the subject. I once believed as you do and it was the one thing that really bothered me about the character of God. John told us that "God is love." Can a person wholly motivated by love subject a person to unending punishment for a finite number of sins? It seems incompatible to me.

Yeah, humanly speaking, it does seem that way but .... is that God's way? I mean to say, "God is love" sounds as if God wouldn't do anything harsh even on the worst of Satanic villains. I've long heard parents of rebellious children say they "love them too much to spank them". So they raise kids that cause others massive harm; that's not "love", real love demands just punishment for deliberate misbehavior; God is love but he is also just.

I believe the idea of all non-saved people spending eternity in the deepest parts of the Lake of Fire on the same level as the worst of humanity and hordes of demons is dead wrong. It would not be just and, if it were true, it would make the sentencing at the Great White Throne a meaningless farce. God IS just and his punishments will be eye-for-eye, ie., equal to the crimes.


So I researched the topic.

I found that the idea of eternal torment of sinners was not taught for the first 500 years of Christendom. I have also looked at every passage of Scripture dealing with the disposition of sinners (with an open mind). I found that there is no proof text that says sinners will be tormented forever. The natural reading of these passages is obliteration.

I don't know when the concept of eternal hell began. Nor do I know when the concepts of the Trinity, the Rapture, spiritual Baptism, etc. began. Nor do I have any "proof" texts for them but they are all true! Such issues weren't major questions in the early church, they were focused on the bold new idea of salvation by grace thru faith and not works.

The ONLY sin that puts anyone into hell is disbelief in and submission to Jesus as Lord. And God himself doesn't judge us to see if our (human) good out weighs the bad, God only judges the degree of punishment or reward in our final home. (John 3:18)

It's critically important to know that WE - not He - make our own decision for where we will spend eternity, not many people know that. All mankind have eternal souls from the day of our conception. If we choose to not follow Christ for our eternity, is it wrong for him to allow us our own choice? And then to live with that choice for eternity?

The Prodigal's father loved his son even after rejection BUT that love did the boy no good after he walked away. He only got the rewards of his father's love after he decided for himself to come back. The father's love did not allow him to over rule the rebellious one's choice.

Ditto with the God who loves us; eternal heaven or eternal hell is our choice and we must live with it. We can choose to live with God or Satan for eternity but we cannot rightly say it's unfair or blame God as callous for that; there will be no "easy out" oblivion.

* Ref. Romans 2:15-16, it was supposed to be Rom 2:5-16 but my fumbly fingers struck again. The point was how we pile up sins for ourselves to "earn" our carefully chosen seating area in hell.

[dtknowles]

Do you have any biblical references to support your statements?


Is his belief invalid if he has no biblical references to support them?

Few to none of us will be saved per the Bible. Everyone of us will reject Jesus by sinning between our last confession and our death. Even deathbed confessions lack a complete accounting of our sins, most sin in ways they do not even recognize. You can't be forgiven for sins you don't understand you are committing. That is why people pray to God asking that they be made aware of their sins. If you are unrepentant and have not tried to reform and make amends then you are not in a state of Grace.

I don't believe this and I believe that while few will be saved and a few will be punished most will just cease to exist. God will save those he feels will be able to serve his purposes in Heaven.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

Is his belief invalid if he has no biblical references to support them?


As a Christian THE authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. So, for me, an opinion without biblical support is invalid.

BTW the ideas you posted about only being forgiven for confessed sins are Roman Catholic and not biblical. You are correct in saying relatively few will be saved. That is a biblical idea.

[Dieselhorses]

As a Christian THE authority for faith and conduct is the Bible. So, for me, an opinion without biblical support is invalid.

BTW the ideas you posted about only being forgiven for confessed sins are Roman Catholic and not biblical. You are correct in saying relatively few will be saved. That is a biblical idea.

Well is this Biblical data? Or does this book not count?>>>>If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

[Ickisrulz]

Well is this Biblical data? Or does this book not count?>>>>If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

John's letter is a little tricky when it comes to discussing sin. John pointed out that a Christian lives a life that is not characterized by sin, but he is still a sinner.

Christians are not capable or expected to make an exhaustive itemized list of sins to confess. We confess the big stuff (things we can see) and ask for forgiveness from God and man, but we do an awful lot of sinning on a daily basis that we do not noticed but are still forgiven because we are Christians. We confess we are sinners in general, and trust we are forgiven.

"God, have mercy on me a sinner...this man went home justified" Luke 18:13

My point is that we don't have to specifically confess each sin to be forgiven.

[Dieselhorses]

John's letter is a little tricky when it comes to discussing sin. John pointed out that a Christian lives a life that is not characterized by sin, but he is still a sinner.

Christians are not capable or expected to make an exhaustive itemized list of sins to confess. We confess the big stuff (things we can see) and ask for forgiveness from God and man, but we do an awful lot of sinning on a daily basis that we do not noticed but are still forgiven because we are Christians. We confess we are sinners in general, and trust we are forgiven.

"God, have mercy on me a sinner...this man went home justified" Luke 18:13

My point is that we don't have to specifically confess each sin to be forgiven.

I have to agree.

[dtknowles]

I have to agree.

I agree to but like I said, I take the Bible with a grain of salt.

I live in Slidell, you in that area??

Tim

[Dieselhorses]

I agree to but like I said, I take the Bible with a grain of salt.

I live in Slidell, you in that area??

Tim

Lived in Covington for 38 years now BR

[dtknowles]

Lived in Covington for 38 years now BR

Ok, good to know, thanks. Where do you shoot

[Hickory]

This is what I know from the Bible.
The human person that is the creation of God has three parts.
1) Your body. The mortal, living, breathing, functioning vessel of you that is physically you, and does work and your will. The part of you that feels physical pain, distress and exhaustion.
2) Your soul. This is the essence of everything that you are, the spiritual part of you that IS the gift of God. The grand accumulation of everything that you have learned, that you are and the personality (good or bad) that you have become in life while you were housed in your body.
This is the part of you that is you, who you are and what you have become. The part that sees, hears and feels, that will live for ever and ever.
3) The spirit. This is what gives your body life. This is another gift of God. This gift of life, the spirit of God was given to you at conception. And is on loan to you for as long as your body lives. When the body dies, the spirit of life returns to God from where it came.

I did not include any scripture reference, because they are easy enough to find just from the causal reading of the Bible.

[1hole]

Asking if is "eternal life given only to believers", seems as if the unspoken part is, "If not, is that fair?" If so, the total answer needs to be in two parts.

First, if by eternal life, you mean will live eternity in Heaven, "YES!", only believers in Messiah Jesus.

Second, IF how and who we believe is only a matter of human philosophy then everyone would go to his god's special place which, being no more than a human philosophy, would be no place.

But, if my God is true, then his believers will go to His special place (Heaven) and all others will go to a place devoid of the good things of a rejected God (He77). SO, is that unfair? Maybe ... but I don't think so.

We don't know all of the "What about ...." stuff but we do know that those who DO know about God and reject what they know are making their own eternal choice (John 3:17, 18) so they, not God, are responsible for their own sentence.

Bottom line, Christianity is not a nice social club nor only one of many human philosophies where we can pick and choose what to follow. Fact is, ALL human souls are created immortal so both believers and non-believers are born with "eternal life" but there are only two options for where our eternity will be spent; again, we each make that choice for ourselves. (Not my ideas fellows, it's all in the Book!)

Everyone needs to give that reality a lot of thought because eternity lasts a very looong time and there is no "purgatory" which may offer anyone a second chance to get it right.

[Dieselhorses]

Ok, good to know, thanks. Where do you shoot

Either my other abode in Covington or Precision on Cloverland