BP in 1800s

[GregLaROCHE]

I read once that in the 1800s BP was different (moister) than today and they didn’t need to use greese cookies or swab after each shot because of that. Would anyone care to comment if that was true or not? Did it have anything to do with them being paper patched boolits?

Thanks

[Don McDowell]

No it's not really true. The loading instructions in the Sharps and Remington catalogs both stressed the importance of using a lube for sporting purposes, and the need to wipe between shots for accuracy.

[Lead pot]

You want to tighten your filter when you read what a lot of internet keyboard shooters say about black powder loading and shooting.

[GregLaROCHE]

So how did the buffalo hunters load their cases? Did they swab each time after they shot? How were military rounds made?

I’m not contesting what has been said, just curious.

[Lead pot]

Greg A lot of the hide hunters used factory loaded munitions by the case. I imagine that they carried some tools to reload but I doubt it.
Here you go, do some reading now that the weather is bad and do a search for some books in the Library of Congress and some old forrest and Stream articles. You will find a lot of inside what and how they did things in the mid 1800rds. As far as fouling control, I have looked at a lot of photo's of hide hunters and by there side or on the breach loading rifles was a wiping stick.
Also spend time at the loading bench and behind the buttplate working up loads and see what works and don't.
Kurt
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/14-journal003http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-[url]http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/13-[url]http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/14-journal003http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/16-journal004

[country gent]

While powders were more than likely different from todays in some ways in a lot of ways they are close. It would be interesting to test powders made to the original formulas and with the same equipment and compare to todays. What I'm trying to say is even with proper storage and canisters after 100 yrs+ the original has changed some, where as our powders are freshly manufactured.

In the day of these rifles and where they were used the most, most people couldn't read or write. So very little of the practical loading techniques and procedures got written down while fresh in the memories. A lot was passed along by spoken word from person to person. We have probably gotten to the level of information a 10-11 year old boy would have had back then in those areas.

Most of the PP bullets used in the day were on the heavy side for caliber. The weight probably did help with cleaner burning and consistency. The Actual Patch would have prevented leading. Wads used in the day may have also acted like a scraper pushing fouling from previous shot out the bore. Im betting they wiped between shots and cleaned fairly regularly. Lubes of the day would also have been slightly different that what we have today having an effect on fouling.

[Don McDowell]

So how did the buffalo hunters load their cases? Did they swab each time after they shot? How were military rounds made?

I’m not contesting what has been said, just curious.

A lot of those hide hunters bought factory ammo by the case. They did do some reloading, but they loaded using wads and grease cookies, pretty much like the factory ammo.
Some I would imagine wiped between shots, others carried 2 rifles and when the first one started to fouling out and shooting wild, laid it aside and picked up rifle #2. Some of them worked in pairs and while one was shooting the other was wiping and loading the next rifle.

[rfd]

never heard of such silliness as moist bp, that would make little to no sense as any amount of water is the bane of bp for good consistent ignition (so sez my flintlock guns). i've read where the buffalo runners could get gov't issue cartridges for free or for cheap - the gov't wanted to eliminate the bison and in turn, eliminate the indians. as such, unless a good lube and/or lube cookie was in that ammo it'd mean wiping instead of blowing. that was a long and large era, lotta things happened that never got writ down.

[Lead pot]

Lets try those book links again. I was in a hurry to go to a prime rib lunch :)



http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/9-journal001

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/13-journal002

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/14-journal003

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/16-journal004

[Huvius]

I think that much of the discussion on how soft or hard your fouling is should consider where the majority of the competition shoots were held.
Living in Colorado, I can assure you that fouling is harder here than on the East coast or in England simply as a function of relative humidity.
Also, in second half of the 19th Century, much was made of a rifle’s ability to digest cartridge after cartridge without the need for wiping. This was a great consideration for military use and was, I think, what led to the adoption of bore sized boolits being the standard for military arms as the boolit could slide past the fouling in the grooves of the bore when chambered.
The only way I know of to effect the hardness of the fouling of a given powder is to employ more lube in the form of a cookie.
Original British cartridges did not use a lube of any kind though.

[crankycalico]

they militaries of the world specified bullet lube in the black powder era. Even the retarded English has issues with a big mutiny in india over the source of the fat used as bullet lube.

America used it. Although I admit in the Minnie ball era, they might not have used as much.

There used to be 14 granulations of black powder in the 1800s. it came as glazed or un glazed.

[DIRT Farmer]

Intersting book from Pioneer Press, a part of Dixie gun works. A lot of it was orders for supplies that the buffalo hunters placed with the supply houses. Lead bars, kegs of powder and primers are in a good many of the orders. Sharon Cunningham was one of the authers and CRS wont let me remember the book and I cant find my copy.

[Huvius]

they militaries of the world specified bullet lube in the black powder era. Even the retarded English has issues with a big mutiny in india over the source of the fat used as bullet lube.


I should have specified cartridges with paper patched boolits.
Some may have had some sort of oil on the patch but the wad column didn’t add any sort of lube in the form of a cookie or disc.

[bob208]

there are some books you need to read getting a stand. they talk about wiping between shots also an ingenious way to get hot water after all was used up. in that same book they talked about loading their own shells.

the cap lock muzzle loading rifle a lot of ground is covered about the powders.

[GregLaROCHE]

Lets try those book links again. I was in a hurry to go to a prime rib lunch :)




http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/9-journal001

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/13-journal002

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/14-journal003

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/send/5-journal/16-journal004

Thanks a lot for those links Kurt. They look very interesting. Unfortunately, I tried to register to view them, but it didn’t work. I sent an email to them and I am waiting for a response. I can’t wait to start reading them.

[indian joe]

Thanks a lot for those links Kurt. They look very interesting. Unfortunately, I tried to register to view them, but it didn’t work. I sent an email to them and I am waiting for a response. I can’t wait to start reading them.

Greg
Sometimes we lose sight of the forest because of all the trees
How many of the old hunters shot their buff at more than 200yards?
Ther has been some more discussion recently on that 500g LEE boolit - I have shot that one quite a bit - With my straight blackpowder and decent lube I am quite sure I could sit up on a hill and fire that load all day without fouling out (ditto for their 405 grainHB) - so long as I kept the rate of fire at a level that didnt overheat the barrel - off a rest we would do 2 to 2 and a half MOA with out wiping between shots - and not lose anything as the shooting progressed - good enough to get a stand?? Who knows ? we were not there
I dont know much but heres a couple of things - there is a huge difference in the level of fouling between the cleanest and dirtiest blackpowder I have shot - you really cant pick it by eyeballing the powder - and they both got the job done as far as decent accuracy and velocity. One I can shoot my flinter till I get sick of it - tother had me bailed up on a walk through shoot trying to batter the sixth ball down onto the powder so I get the shot off and clean it to keep going.
Whats the difference? Likely the wood the charcoal was made from I think
Ok - 150 years ago the forests were abundant - anybody making powder could pick and choose the wood they used for charcoal - and as well BP was primarily a propellant powder - these days - the forests are cut out in a lot of places or locked up as parks and rifle grade BP is a niche market - they wasted more in fireworks a few nights ago in sydney harbour than all the BP shooters in Aus will use in ten years of rifle shooting.

Whats my point? I bet my gold tooth that most of the powder used in the old days was way cleaner burning stuff than most of what we can get today .

[rfd]

i've sampled most bp brands in both flintlock long guns and cartridge guns ... hard to beat swiss, and i doubt there was a better black powder back in them thar dayze.

[indian joe]

i've sampled most bp brands in both flintlock long guns and cartridge guns ... hard to beat swiss, and i doubt there was a better black powder back in them thar dayze.

yah swiss gets the nod (if ya got the jingle for it) my thought is there might been a lot that was close to as good back then.

Most of our shooting life there has been a lot of fireworks quality stuff around
I have used three batches of homebrew so far over the last three years and number three is chasin the tail of Swiss and OE - based on that I dont reckon its that difficult of a process.

[GregLaROCHE]

Just so people don’t think I was crazy when I mentioned moist black powder, I came across it again on bpcr.net

“Black powder leaves more fouling in the barrel and chamber than smokeless powder. One hundred years ago the better grade of powders left a moist fouling which did not affect repeated shots too much and allowed many shots to be fired before the barrel needed to be wiped out.

Current powders leave a hard dry fouling which will soon make it difficult to chamber another round and will also affect accuracy.”

[rfd]

... “Black powder leaves more fouling in the barrel and chamber than smokeless powder. One hundred years ago the better grade of powders left a moist fouling which did not affect repeated shots too much and allowed many shots to be fired before the barrel needed to be wiped out.

Current powders leave a hard dry fouling which will soon make it difficult to chamber another round and will also affect accuracy.”

none of that makes any sense to me. there is no way that black powder in and of itself will leave the barrel moist, but black powder residue is hygroscopic and will readily attract moisture, to the extent of its residue being corrosive and not about mitigating residue fouling.

[GregLaROCHE]

It doesn’t make sense to me either. That’s why I did the original post.

[Don McDowell]

There were what the powder companies describe as "moist" powders, they also warned against compressing those "moist" powders, and suggested their use mainly in shotguns.

[nicholst55]

Years ago, one of the gun rag authors (Mike Venturino?) wrote that older (19th century) BP was far superior to anything available at the (then current) time, and I think he perpetuated the myth that the older stuff left moist fouling. That statement has been debunked since then, but I believe that the original author was simply repeating a popular myth at the time. Want to see hard BP fouling? Come to Yuma, Arizona.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

before any of you rewrite the history of BP, understand that different soft woods provide a different moisture content. Prior even to the War of Northern Aggression, the War Dept specified which type of wood would be used for musket as opposed to pistol or cannon powder.

I am fortunate to have a set of encyclopedias handed down from a great-grandfather dating back to 1904, "The New International Encyclopedia", published by Dodd, Mead & Company. They offer the complete Ordnance Dept's requirements for BP, down to the type of wood, and the size of the charcoal billets to be used.

BP formulae are varied, it was not then merely graded for use by granulation.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I would like to see that article that debunked Mike's statement. The staff at Yuma Proving grounds proved that the Quanah Parker shot by Billy Dixon was impossible. That was, until Mike took his 50-90 there and replicated the shot in front of them. I have known the tandem of Garbe and Venturino going on 30 years, and anything they write is proven and can be documented.
Things may be difficult in Daegu, but here records from the time validate the moisture issue. Shoot the same volume of 1Fg, 2FFg, and 3FFFg for ten shot strings and report on the cleaning difference.

[indian joe]

before any of you rewrite the history of BP, understand that different soft woods provide a different moisture content. Prior even to the War of Northern Aggression, the War Dept specified which type of wood would be used for musket as opposed to pistol or cannon powder.

I am fortunate to have a set of encyclopedias handed down from a great-grandfather dating back to 1904, "The New International Encyclopedia", published by Dodd, Mead & Company. They offer the complete Ordnance Dept's requirements for BP, down to the type of wood, and the size of the charcoal billets to be used.

BP formulae are varied, it was not then merely graded for use by granulation.

I would really, really, really, like to see that information on type of wood and billet size - and any variations of the BP formulae
would you be able to post pics of those few pages ??

[indian joe]

I would like to see that article that debunked Mike's statement. The staff at Yuma Proving grounds proved that the Quanah Parker shot by Billy Dixon was impossible. That was, until Mike took his 50-90 there and replicated the shot in front of them. I have known the tandem of Garbe and Venturino going on 30 years, and anything they write is proven and can be documented.
Things may be difficult in Daegu, but here records from the time validate the moisture issue. Shoot the same volume of 1Fg, 2FFg, and 3FFFg for ten shot strings and report on the cleaning difference.

I think the main question over this would be - is it a difference in actual moisture content in the powder OR difference in the way a particular recipe reacts in the barrel ?
There are so many subtle variations with blackpowder ---the recipe is so simple and the process so very basic - yet every brand is different and each batch from the same mill using same recipe and identical components needs testing for variability.

[M-Tecs]

We all agree the BP quality and fouling properties vary depending on manufactures processes. That is true today same as it was in the past. I have often read about the superior powders of the past. With the increased technology the very finest BP should have been manufactured in the 1880's or 1890's time frame. The question that I have is why are there no remaining samples today?

[Don McDowell]

Mostly because they got shot up, or dumped in the garden.

[M-Tecs]

We still have lots of loaded cartridges from the BP days. I know of at least three kegs of unopened rifle BP from the civil war. A friend of mine is into very old and expensive liquors. I have sampled 200 year old liquors. If we still have 200 year old booze you would think we will still have some of the high end powders.

[Bent Ramrod]

All the black powder I’ve salvaged from old cartridges was crushed and caked in the cases. By the time I got it out, it couldn’t possibly have been of the original grain size distribution, and therefore was pretty useless for comparison with modern stuff. I typically banged it up in cap and ball pistols; it did work very well there. As good as GOEX 3F.

Many articles in the old days said the reason factory BP ammunition wasn’t accurate was that it was “too old;” that it took “freshly loaded cartridges” to realize the accuracy potential the correspondents were demonstrating in those same cartridges. And this was “too old” by maybe months, not a hundred years.

This “moist burning” feature is reflected today, I believe, when people note that one brand of powder or another gives “harder fouling” than the one they’ve settled on. In a reasonably humid climate, where most of the accuracy freaks lived in the 1890s, it would be easier to wipe the fouling goo out of the barrel, or more shots could be fired between wiping with a given brand of powder, just like some people report today. This could be described as “moist burning.”

I’ve seen mentions of black, and even early “bulk” smokeless powders, kept in cigar humidors before loading, to keep the “moist burning” (in the case of black) or “even pressure” (in the case of smokeless) characteristics constant.

Of course, you can’t physically wet down black powder for “moist burning” without ruining it. But I was a Chemist in a previous life, and the CRC Handbook lists a bunch of salt solutions which impart various percentages of constant humidity to the air above them. I thought on and off about making up a few of these solutions in dessicators, and storing BP samples above them, to see if the adsorption of moisture at the given humidity would “moisten” the burn characteristics: the “scientific” version of the cigar humidor. In that case, the atmospheric moisture would only be adsorbed by the charcoal, and not leach out the saltpeter like spraying or steaming would. Never got around to it, though.

[Gunlaker]

The cleaner burning powders of the old days might have some truth, but maybe not. Several years ago in the Single Shot Exchange, there were some old articles reprinted regarding "shooting dirty". The author of the article made it sound easy. One of the letters in reply basically said the article was wrong and that it couldn't be done. So the same arguments regarding fouling happened back then too :-)

Chris.

[M-Tecs]

All the black powder I’ve salvaged from old cartridges was crushed and caked in the cases. By the time I got it out, it couldn’t possibly have been of the original grain size distribution, and therefore was pretty useless for comparison with modern stuff.

I was thinking more along the lines of a chemical analysis using a mass spectrometer or whatever analysis equipment would be best for the task. Until the 1880's BP was the only viable option for BP and the manufacture of it would be at it's technological apex. Cleaner burning and moister fouling would have been a huge benefit to both the civilian and military market yet other than some minor marketing claims of cleaner burning I am not aware of any written data (at the time) of this "better" BP. It's sounds a lot like the 100 mile per gallon carburetors of the 1970's.

[BrentD]

I thought on and off about making up a few of these solutions in dessicators, and storing BP samples above them, to see if the adsorption of moisture at the given humidity would “moisten” the burn characteristics:

Already been done a couple of times. All of the documents, photos, etc, that I ever uploaded to the net are now gone permanently, but years ago, Pete Mink, Ed Stutz, and Bob Mullen, exposed various blackpowders to different humidities for varying lengths of time - days and weeks even - to see how much moisture was absorbed from the air. The answer was, effectively, none. BP is very stable and simply does not pick up moisture. The moisture in fouling is either a by product of combustion (typical of burning any hydrocarbon) or absorbed by the fouling, which is chemically much different than the powder, of course.

[13Echo]

The Mad Monk did some research on "Moist fouling" several years ago and concluded the "moisture" was wood creosote that was present in the charcoal used to make black powder. It resulted in softer fouling that seemed moist and that indeed some powders did produce softer fouling. Water is not a product of combustion of BP and there is no significant water in BP.

[Huvius]

All the black powder I’ve salvaged from old cartridges was crushed and caked in the cases. By the time I got it out, it couldn’t possibly have been of the original grain size distribution, and therefore was pretty useless for comparison with modern stuff. I typically banged it up in cap and ball pistols; it did work very well there. As good as GOEX 3F.



Here is a photo of some black powder I took out of an Eley 450/400 2-3/8” cartridge, probably from the 1880s.
The powder was quite compressed but came out with a pick.
The granules are very hard and there wasnt much in the way of fines in the powder.
I could load this powder in a cartridge and give her a go as a comparison so some modern powder or even shoot a couple cartridges over the chronograph to see if they are close to the published velocities of the time. Hate to waste the cool copper tubed boolits they have though...

https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Eley4004.jpg (https://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Eley4004.jpg.html)


On another note, I was recently reading about a new (ish) black powder from South Africa called Obatex.
There is some information about it here:
http://www.bpsu.co.za/

Interestingly, they claim very reduced charges for duplication of standard velocities yet claim to be a traditional type of black powder!
I don’t know how their performance is possible for a true black powder.

[BrentD]

The Mad Monk did some research on "Moist fouling" several years ago and concluded the "moisture" was wood creosote that was present in the charcoal used to make black powder. It resulted in softer fouling that seemed moist and that indeed some powders did produce softer fouling. Water is not a product of combustion of BP and there is no significant water in BP.

What ARE the combustion products of BP then?

[13Echo]

The ingredients are carbon (charcoal), saltpeter (KNO3), and sulfur. There is no Hydrogen in any of the ingredients to combine with the Oxygen from Saltpeter to make water. Combustion products would be CO2, CO, SO, SO2, and solid compounds of potassium sulfur and carbon and whatever other trace minerals and compounds (such as wood creosote) that might be included in the charcoal. Note the creosote is not the same stuff used to preserve wood but a natural part of the wood. Beech wood used to be distilled to produce natural creosote.

[BrentD]

You think that charcoal is pure carbon? I'm doubtful.

[13Echo]

It's not pure carbon but it no longer has significant hydrocarbon due to the charring process. Charcoal used in BP manufacture analysis is given for 14.286 gms as: Carbon 12.398, Hydrogen 0.401, Oxygen 1.272, Ash 0.215.

Moisture in BP is usually about 1%

Gaseous products as a % by weight: CO2 49.29, CO 12.47, Nitrogen 32.91, H2S 2.65, Methane 0.43, Hydrogen 2.19. H2O is not listed as a product
Solids are listed as KCO3 61.03, KS 15.1, Potassium Thiocyanate 0.22, KNO3 0.27, Sulfur 8.74, Carbon 0.08

(The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, T. L. Davis, pp43)

I think I have copies of the research done by the "Mad Monk" on BP composition and burning characteristics. He was a consultant to Several of the powder makers in the late 90s and early 21st cent. The articles are well worth reading.

[indian joe]

Here is a photo of some black powder I took out of an Eley 450/400 2-3/8” cartridge, probably from the 1880s.
The powder was quite compressed but came out with a pick.
The granules are very hard and there wasnt much in the way of fines in the powder.
I could load this powder in a cartridge and give her a go as a comparison so some modern powder or even shoot a couple cartridges over the chronograph to see if they are close to the published velocities of the time. Hate to waste the cool copper tubed boolits they have though...

https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Eley4004.jpg (https://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Eley4004.jpg.html)


On another note, I was recently reading about a new (ish) black powder from South Africa called Obatex.
There is some information about it here:
http://www.bpsu.co.za/

Interestingly, they claim very reduced charges for duplication of standard velocities yet claim to be a traditional type of black powder!
I don’t know how their performance is possible for a true black powder.

Pawlonia charcoal? it would give a much less dense powder and supposed to be much faster burn - the SAfrican blurb says reduced by weight ......there a couple of makers on this forum claiming better velocity than Swiss - I will claim cleaner burn - still leaves a bit of a question mark????

[rfd]

obatex compression sensitivity an issue that creates loading complexity?

234106

[GregLaROCHE]

I tried to find Obatex the the link given. The first link works, but not the ones to the BP. I haven’t googled it yet.

Interesting to learn that they made creosote out of beech wood. That’s why my stove pipe gets clogged so much when I burn beech.

[Markopolo]

Here is the posted trials of the new OBATEX.

http://https://www.bpsu.co.za/BPSU_Newsflashes/2016/BPSU%20Newsflash%207%20of%202016.pdf (http://www.bpsu.co.za/BPSU_Newsflashes/2016/BPSU%20Newsflash%207%20of%202016.pdf)


Here is what it looks like in a picture of an add..

234117

Marko

[aap2]

Reducing BP fouling in cartridge arms is often a function of several factors other than specific characteristics of the powder itself. I shoot an original Springfield trapdoor in 45-70 with BP handloads for extended range sessions and never wipe the bore. Accuracy is great. I think that the secret is a heavy 500 grain boolit of proper diameter loaded with a compressed powder charge and a heavy crimp. Magnum primers and a slightly enlarged flash hole also. The original style boolit at .458 diameter is cast 20-1 lead/tin and SPG lube in the grooves. I use Goex powder mostly and Swiss sometimes; Both work great with Swiss being a little cleaner. With properly loaded ammo you can shoot this rifle all day long without wiping the bore...

[Chill Wills]

I have a lot more questions than answers about the RSA powder and in the period from 2016 until now this is the first I have heard of it. I would guess they are not trying to export their powder and I can not imagine building a powder plant just for the meager consumption of RSA needs would pay.
Lots of questions.
All tests were muzzle loader based and no cartridge loading was included in the 2016 info. The RSA BP shooters are largely ML and not so much BPCR.

[Huvius]

Yes, makes me wonder if the Obatex would pass muster for competition in England or the US.
I will contact a couple friends in RSA and see what the status of that powder is.
The RSA is getting to be quite a ****show overall lately though...

The cartridge tests are here:

http://www.bpsu.co.za/Obatex%202%20-%20By%20the%20numbers.pdf

And a test in a Colt 1911

http://www.bpsu.co.za/Obatex%203%20-%20ManMagnum%20December%202017.pdf

[GregLaROCHE]

I can’t get any of the links posted on Obatex to open. Do they work for others ?

[indian joe]

I can’t get any of the links posted on Obatex to open. Do they work for others ?

the links posted by huvius work

[GregLaROCHE]

[QUOTE=indian joe;4552744]the links posted by huvius work[/QUOTE

This is what I get when I try either link. I can’t understand it, if it works for others.

« This site can’t be reached

www.bpsu.co.za unexpectedly closed the connection. »

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=indian joe;4552744]the links posted by huvius work[/QUOTE

This is what I get when I try either link. I can’t understand it, if it works for others.

« This site can’t be reached

www.bpsu.co.za unexpectedly closed the connection. »

try again - I just spent half an hour cruising the site using the link from your last post - maybe dont like your browser ??? I am using firefox

[Don McDowell]

That Obetex stuff sounds like a South African version of Blackhorn 209

[Chill Wills]

That Obetex stuff sounds like a South African version of Blackhorn 209

Agree 100%
Not BP

I think RSA is trying to do the best they can in light of not being able to get in real powder. I don't blame them. I strongly think you will never see any of this powder here in USA. I could be wrong.

[Huvius]

The question is, if this powder becomes common in the long range ML circles in South Africa, how will it effect or compromise their eligibility in international competition?
Say, if SA hosts an international match, will their home team be allowed to use it? They claim it to be genuine black powder...

[Yellowhouse]

I expect Southern Herd Professionals did a lot of reloading as evidenced by the records of Rath and T. E. Jackson at Ft. Griffin. They sold a lot of lead, powder, and primers. On the other hand it appears all sold quite a bit of ammo too.

I'm with whoever it was that guessed most buffalo weren't shot at ranges much over 200-300 yards and they weren't so much worried about fouling influencing minute of buffalo as they were overheating the barrels. A canteen of water and spare rifle solved that or, if need be , an overfull bladder.

[GregLaROCHE]

[QUOTE=GregLaROCHE;4552779]

try again - I just spent half an hour cruising the site using the link from your last post - maybe dont like your browser ??? I am using firefox

I’ve tried a number of times and even emailed the association in South Africa. I can only have internet by satellite where I live. If a page takes too long to load it times out. I think that must be what is happening, since it works for everyone else.

[Chill Wills]

The question is, if this powder becomes common in the long range ML circles in South Africa, how will it effect or compromise their eligibility in international competition?
Say, if SA hosts an international match, will their home team be allowed to use it? They claim it to be genuine black powder...

If RSA hosts an international match that is the only powder everyone will be using.

Teams arriving on airplanes, that would be everyone, is given powder by the host country because you can not fly with enough loaded ammo (eleven pounds) or loose powder. Loaded ammo is total weight, brass, powder and bullets.

And having seen the what it is made of, bless their hearts for having to live in an oppressed country, it is not real BP by any stretch, regardless what someone calls it.

This is no knock on the good people of RSA. They are just responding to the crummy rules in their former country.

[Don McDowell]

Agree 100%
Not BP

I think RSA is trying to do the best they can in light of not being able to get in real powder. I don't blame them. I strongly think you will never see any of this powder here in USA. I could be wrong.

As I understand the Blackhorn 209 stuff it is a percentage of black, this RSA stuff looks to be about the same. Just modern interpretation of the long gone King's semismokless, and Les smoke powders.

[Huvius]

If RSA hosts an international match that is the only powder everyone will be using.


Not sure about that.
Wano, Swiss and Elephant look to be somewhat available in RSA per the comparison made in the Obatex article.
My guess is most competitors are using Swiss and would do so in SA too.

https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/347217DA-8641-4F20-B425-9F67023269E9.jpeg (https://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/347217DA-8641-4F20-B425-9F67023269E9.jpeg.html)

[Chill Wills]

Not sure about that.
Wano, Swiss and Elephant look to be somewhat available in RSA per the comparison made in the Obatex article.
My guess is most competitors are using Swiss and would do so in SA too.

https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/347217DA-8641-4F20-B425-9F67023269E9.jpeg (https://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/347217DA-8641-4F20-B425-9F67023269E9.jpeg.html)

I'm sure enough.

RSA can not get regular shipments into the country. It is politics. Not transportation or price.

Over the last two decades RSA has had many dry spells between shipments getting into the country. There were periods of shortages where there wasn't any powder to be had at any price. This includes Swiss and Wono.
Elephant??? ...it has not been produced in almost twenty years. The few cans left in the world, however many that might be, are getting to be collectors items.

Their ongoing difficulties keeping and replacing a regular supply may likely have been what caused them to start in country production of a workable substitute. I am seeing info on this now that goes back 15 or more years.

[rfd]

obatex, really? who gives a cr@p?

we all have access to lots of flavors of good, real black powder.

we doan need no steenkin obewankanobe RSA powder.

:holysheep

[Huvius]

obatex, really? who gives a cr@p?

we all have access to lots of flavors of good, real black powder.

we doan need no steenkin obewankanobe RSA powder.

:holysheep

TRUE... SO TRUE but... The only reason I brought it up is that, as part of the conversation on 1800s black powder, the opinion that 19th century powder had more energy than modern powder invariably comes up.
This Obatex has significantly more energy per weight than any other modern black or Curtis & Harvey's 19thC powder.
Question is... WHY??
Some special charcoal made from some specific wood with special properties that no one tried before?
Are they are taking liberties as to what qualifies as a genuine black powder?
Can the process or ingredient mix they use assist home powder makers in upping the performance of their own powder?
Questions, questions...

[rfd]

i was being a tad facetious ... but in fact is obatex a true, real black powder?

[indian joe]

i was being a tad facetious ... but in fact is obatex a true, real black powder?

That is a question that has a few of us (or me at least) jangling our brains

If the answer is yes then the most likely explanation for less density and more energy is the charcoal

I used to drive past a failed pawlonia plantation twice a year and was urged by Fly (from the powder forum) to get me some of that wood !!

[rfd]

we grow paulownia ("pavlovna", named after a russian tsar's consort queen) in the carolina's, i've used it to rout out electric guitar bodies, super lightweight. it's a weed hardwood tree of sorts. grows about 30 FEET per year.

[Chill Wills]

I am trying very hard to not get too far down this hole.

There isn't any charcoal of any kind in this product.
In a thread on 1800's era gun powder it is out of place.

What we call black powder has three constituents. The Sannadex product has replaced two of them. (it may go by more than one name - same product) They use sugar (dextrose) and iron oxide (rust). There is no charcoal and no sulfur in it.

[Huvius]

I am trying very hard to not get too far down this hole.

There isn't any charcoal of any kind in this product.
In a thread on 1800's era gun powder it is out of place.

What we call black powder has three constituents. The Sannadex product has replaced two of them. (it may go by more than one name - same product) They use sugar (dextrose) and iron oxide (rust). There is no charcoal and no sulfur in it.


Why do you persist in that assumption?
In this article:
http://www.bpsu.co.za/BPSU_Newsflashes/2016/BPSU%20Newsflash%207%20of%202016.pdf
the BPSU clearly states that it is, to their satisfaction, a black powder.
The article also states that Sannadex was never allowed in competition as it did not qualify as a black powder but Obatex does - they are not the same.

[Chill Wills]

I actually don't care much about this.
I doubt either of us will ever see or use this powder unless we are in RSA. I've shot matches in RSA and have known a few people that are on some of the correspondence regarding this powder. I have seen nothing to the effect that there are real BP products being made in RSA.

This will be my last post on this I hope!

So, I'll ask you or anyone; Is BP BP if two out of the three components are something completely different?

I'm fine if you want to call this sub real Black Powder. I'm not the BP police. However, I am very sure the rest of the match community around the world will consider this a sub and treat it as such.

This whole topic makes little difference in my world. I am happy for the shooters in RSA in that they have access to SOMETHING they can shoot.

I'm done. Next persons turn.
Respectfully, Michael Rix

[rfd]

if this obatex stuff doesn't have all three recognized real black powder ingredients, it ain't real black powder, as any fool would know. case closed. over and out.