351 WSL from 357 max

[DrDucati]

Haven't found much in the way of methods actually demonstrated. I am also a new lathe user. So, here is my set up:
233011233012
I machined the aluminum mandrel to match the inside taper of the case. Then I made the little steel fitting to mate the tailstock center on the right to the primer pocket. The traditional center swages the primer pocket more than I'd prefer, so I'll find out if this is better.

[DrDucati]

My project is going pretty well so far.

When I am turning down the cartridge rim, I see that the rim thickens a little... As if some brass is being pushed to the side. Any of you turners can say what causes that and how to avoid it?

[P Flados]

I had to look up the 351 WSL to have a clue.

It looks like 223 brass (cheap) could be used in lieu of 357 max (expensive). A bunch of us are converting 223 brass to a rimless 357 max we call 357AR for the AR-15 platform. Here is a photo of a recent batch:

233205

I have "converted" brass on a number of occasions. When cutting brass, I seem to have good luck with very sharp edges and edges that are a little more "pointy" than I need for steel. I use high speed steel in my little cheap china special lathe.

Back to the brass, if you just have too much 357 max brass laying around with nothing better to do than convert it to something else, just pack it up and ship it to me. I could always use more when feeding my 4 maximums. I might even be willing to send back a small flat rate of 223 brass.

[DrDucati]

LoL! I'm working with a new batch of max. Got the trimming down like it's a breeze. I think my issue in thinning the rim is using the carbide inserts that came with the "cheap Chinese" lathe. The small diameter on brass I think needs high speed steel. For now the hss form tool does the job. Maybe I will get indexable hss inserts. I don't want to skip the process of learning to grind my own blanks, but right now I want to use my limited free time on the brass conversion.

[DrDucati]

BTW, I'm up to my neck in 223 brass. I would like to learn more about your 357AR though.

[Battis]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

[DrDucati]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

The Winchester self-loaders are fun. I would like to get the set of them.

[P Flados]

For the 357AR, there is a thread on this forum at:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?312306-357AR-(Max-Rimless)-from-223-5-56-cases

I have been posting a lot about my custom boolit efforts for this gun at:

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/357ar-357-max-for-the-modern-boolit-man-9735573?pid=1306665551



In my late teens (1978 or so) I had a part time job that involved running a 13" Southbend. We used inserts & carbide tooling a lot and I loved the stuff.

When I got my 7x14 mini lathe last year, I bought a bunch of carbide tooling. It just did not seem to work worth a darn. I think the little lathe flexes too much.

I also bought a 4 piece batch of 8mm x 8mm x 200 HSS blanks. This gave me 8 ends to work with and given the long length I can re-grind an end without thinking twice. The stuff works great. I went looking & found some on Amazon for ~$20 for a batch of 4.

I tried some of the traditional tool grinds, but did not like how the cutting point got closer to the bottom during sharpening. I also found that I like doing most of my cutting left to right. As an engineer, I thought long and hard about the tip and finally came up with one I like a lot. Grinding it first time is real easy and I can sharpen it over and over with out changing the profile.

Here is the my favorite cutting tool in the lathe set up at an angle that cuts (left to right) pretty good most of the time:

233217

Here it the tool looking at the point along the tool centerline:

233218

Here is a side view (out of focus, sorry) looking at the cutting edge:

233219

Here is the back side:

233220

And here is the top view:

233221

[DrDucati]

Very nice!

[P Flados]

For my .351 WSL I use .357 mag brass. I reduce the rim with a file (and drill press). No extractor groove. I neck size with a 223 die. For my .35 WSL I use 38 SP brass - reduce the rim, no extractor groove. It works very well.

Do you still use a 38/357 shell holder?

Part of why I recommended the 223 brass would be the good fit you get when using 223 shell holders.

A big "pain" for some of my other "conversions" where I re-worked rims was getting proper fit in the desired shell holders both on the press and in my hand priming tool.

I will say that trimming 223 brass (or 357max) down is likely to end up with the brass too thick at the case mouth. I have done a bunch of neck turning for some of my conversions. Now this is an area where I still need to work out something better than my past efforts.

[Battis]

I still use the 38/357 shell holder. I take very little off the rim's diameter. The problem is neck sizing. When I use that brass, it's tough to get a good neck grip on the bullet - that's why I neck size with the 223 die. With a good crimp, I can still turn the bullet in the case by hand, but it doesn't pull out, and 22 grs of IMR4227 keeps the bullet from being pushed in. Somehow it works well.

[P Flados]

I went back and looked at the 351 again.

Now I see that is does have a small rim.

From the photo, I had initially thought it was a rimless.

I doubt that a factory chamber would head space properly on the mouth. With a small adjustment to the chamber, a gun could probably be "converted" to allow head spacing on the mouth. Then the gun would probably be happy with brass made from 5.56 / 223. The thicker brass at the mouth from converted 5.56 / 223 may actually help out with holding taper crimped bullets secure.

[richhodg66]

Someone on here uses cut down .223 brass. Seems like some rifles use it well, others don't. The rim would be a bit small, but if your individual rifle's extractor works, go for it.

I personally have only used real .351 brass in mine, but it isn't easy to come by and expensive, plus the rifles are hard on it.

I have thought of making some .351 "short" brass from .357 brass. Seems easy enough and I wouldn't mind loading it light enough to not work the action, just use it as a straight pull on the range. Would also allow for use of the plain based bullet mold I have for it.

The 1907s are capable rifles, more so than is generally believed. I killed two deer with mine using cast a couple of years ago and for woods hunting, they do just fine.

[Battis]

I "misspoke" when I said I use 22 grs of 4227 in the .351 (new spring and buffers). I only use 17 grs, and that works the action perfectly. 17 grs just fits in the .357 case.
In the .35 I use 12 grs 4227. New spring and buffers.
In the .32 I use 11.5 grs 4227. Original spring, new buffers.
In the .401 (Big Ouch) I use 22 grs 4227. Original spring, new buffers.

There are no extractor grooves in any of the cases that I load for these guns. I have two .351s and they both work with the rounds I load.
The problem in using 38/357 brass is that the bullet I use is only .352". Like I said, the crimp keeps it from pulling out, the powder holds it in place. From what I've read, there's no problem compressing IMR4227.

[DrDucati]

I just completed reading Speckin's "Winchester model 07 self-loading caliber 351." It's very reasonably priced; if interested, get it while it is available. I would like to get my hands on Henwood's "The Forgotten Winchesters," but that is like finding a four leaf clover growing on a hen's tooth. I've seen it previously having been sold for $500-700.

I just ordered a model 10 (.401) sold with Redding dies and modern ammo. I'm getting off topic, but I just love these models.

[Battis]

I use 414 Super Magnum brass for my 401. There are no springs available for the .32 or .401 but you can get the buffers. I recommend changing them out. I spoke on the phone with Mr Speckin after I bought his book. It's a good book but his method of changing the springs and buffers on a Self Loader will not work on a 401. There is a better way...

[DrDucati]

I use 414 Super Magnum brass for my 401. There are no springs available for the .32 or .401 but you can get the buffers. I recommend changing them out. I spoke on the phone with Mr Speckin after I bought his book. It's a good book but his method of changing the springs and buffers on a Self Loader will not work on a 401. There is a better way...
You wouldn't happen to be the fella in Vermont would you? Speckin referred to his method.

[DrDucati]

Also, is the same buffer used in all the models?

[Battis]

No, I live in MA, much worse than VT. My method basically involves preloading the bolt with the spring before it's installed in the gun. I used the same buffers in each.

[Battis]

I took these pics at the Buffalo Bill museum in Cody, WY. I used the 2nd pic to determine what size to make the buffers in my gun.

[DrDucati]

You made them? What material?

[Battis]

There I go, misspeaking again. I'm the new Al Gore. I meant to say that I used that photo to determine what size to cut the buffers. In the 401, one was not enough to fit in that metal pocket, and two were too big, so I cut two to fit in the pocket with the size based on that photo. I'll have to check my guns but they all don't have that metal pocket/cup - I can't remember the setup on the others.
Numrich sells the buffers.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/252300

[DrDucati]

Any tips for preventing cracks in the firearms?

[Loudenboomer]

P Flados
the .35 and .351 SL do indeed have a small rim. The base of both rounds are nearly identical to the .38 Super. My machinist buddy made me a fixture for a drill press that makes very nice brass for the .35 SL from Military 38 spl. brass. It cuts a nearly identical factory extractor grove. Most guns function ok without the extractor grove though. I'll try post some pictures of the fixture Friday.

[Battis]

I think the forearms crack from the buffers and springs being too worn out. Plus, they're old. I use West Systems two part epoxy and filler to repair them from the underside. West Systems Epoxy is expensive - I think any two part epoxy and filler should work.

My .32 WSL came with about 80 factory rounds. I've shot a few but I also make the brass from 32-20 brass.
Accurate Molds makes a few molds for the .351. I got the 35-175A without the gas check.

[DrDucati]

All very useful information. I appreciate the experience you are generously sharing.

I may not need the extra groove, but looking at the case dimensions, I found it's easy to get the groove to specs on the lathe. RCBS 19 or Lee 19 shell holders are recommended but will not work without the groove. On second thought, I can probably modify the shell holder...

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Good thread - My 1907 won't extract .223 brass, I have a bunch made from .357 Max and have a bunch more I'm about to turn down. I haven't tried .357 Mag or .38 special but truly no reason it wouldn't work and I've read many times that it works. Sit the bullet out a little further as needed, these rifles obviously need a lot of punch to operate.

FWIW I turn down a lot of rims for different caliber conversions and I've had no problems just making a mandrel that fits inside the case (to keep it from crushing) and just go at it. I haven't found a need to support the case head.

There's a fellow on here who is a wizard with these rifles and gave me a hand getting mine going (and gave me my first converted .357 max brass) - I can't remember his handle on this site but he might chime in.

Also worth noting that .351 brass is available, and a lot more so on your side of the border. I've seen it at Grafs, Midway and I believe Buffalo Arms. I've got a couple hundred here different brands. The Bertram brass is super expensive and I find its too soft, I'd avoid it myself.

[DrDucati]

NCBB, some major brass companies have gone out of business over the past several years and what were often sold on sites like Grafs were leftover stock. Bertram may exist but if so, no one carries them that I find. Jameson became Captech Intl which went out of business. I haven't found a distributor for Quality Cartridge co; they list Grafs, but then denied to me that they work with them...odd. Possibly Rocky Mountain Ctg co, though they are I believe turned brass from solid stock. Not offered by Huntington Die Specialties, at least not listed on website, haven't called. A company I purchased from is called Load-X out in California. They list 351 WSL ammo as currently in stock. They do not sell just brass, but the ammo is properly head stamped. I lucked into some 25-20 brass they happened to have an over stock that they listed on GunBroker. Based upon that one purchase and email communication the service was very good.

I am still experimenting with turning my 351 brass from 357 max. I have the rims turned down. Planning to turn the extractor groove.. just because I'm a little ambitious about making them "correct", not even sure why, just a personality quirk :-)

[DrDucati]

Buffalo Arms is listing 351 wsl brass formed from "another case" (not stated) for 60 cents each with 100 quantity buy. That's pretty reasonable.

[Battis]

I bought some loaded .351 rounds online and for the heck of it I pulled a few bullets and measured the powder charge. It varied from 17 grs to 21 grs. Not good. Never again would I buy reloads for this rifle.
"Another case" is most likely .357 max brass - then, again, you're dealing with the case mouth that is too large for the .352" bullet. I also found that the case mouths of the longer .357 max brass took a beating while the shorter .357 mag brass does not.
38/357 dies, 357 mag brass with reduced rim diameter, no extractor groove, .223 die for neck sizing (some use a 9mm die for neck sizing - I haven't tried it yet but it makes sense), .352" bullet, 17 grs IMR4227 (or whatever works for your gun), and bingo. 17 grs is the minimum charge that will work the action in both of my .351s. I could go higher but why...
I would definitely install a new recoil spring and new buffer(s).

FWIW, there was an ebay seller a few years ago selling Lee "custom made" .351 dies for about $60. I called Lee and they had no knowledge of those dies but they said it might have been a special limited order. Anyways, I bought the dies and tried them on the 357 mag brass (and some 357 max brass that I had left over from the reloads I bought online) but the dies would not put the proper neck grip in those cases - they worked only as well as the 357 dies. I returned the dies. In a perfect world, there would be some exact, authentic .351 brass available, but...

[NorthCoastBigBore]

NCBB, some major brass companies have gone out of business over the past several years and what were often sold on sites like Grafs were leftover stock. Bertram may exist but if so, no one carries them that I find. Jameson became Captech Intl which went out of business. I haven't found a distributor for Quality Cartridge co; they list Grafs, but then denied to me that they work with them...odd. Possibly Rocky Mountain Ctg co, though they are I believe turned brass from solid stock. Not offered by Huntington Die Specialties, at least not listed on website, haven't called. A company I purchased from is called Load-X out in California. They list 351 WSL ammo as currently in stock. They do not sell just brass, but the ammo is properly head stamped. I lucked into some 25-20 brass they happened to have an over stock that they listed on GunBroker. Based upon that one purchase and email communication the service was very good.

I am still experimenting with turning my 351 brass from 357 max. I have the rims turned down. Planning to turn the extractor groove.. just because I'm a little ambitious about making them "correct", not even sure why, just a personality quirk :-)

Ah, that's a shame. Good to know... but at least we know how to "make do" without the factory brass :)

[Loudenboomer]

For the .35 SL I use 9mm carbide dies. Works fine in my gun. I have not tried it with the .351. I had plenty of factory ammo when I collected .351s. Brass for 60 cents? I think I would just buy them.
Best bet for boolits would be to find a classic Lyman mold or get a custom. A little too much sizing but. I've sized a 195 Ranch Dog boolit to .354 and worked up a Alliant 2400 powder load just until cycling was 100 % then quit. Safe in my gun and just as accurate as the old factory loads I had.
I think Hawk is still making J bullets in .351 cal.

[DrDucati]

Contrary to what at least one shell holder chart says, I can confirm that Lee #19 does not fit the 351 but RCBS #19 fits like a glove.

[DrDucati]

Unexpectedly, found a source for correctly headstamped 401 loads: Precision Cartridge Inc, Hobart, IN. The good: they list about a 100 PDs they source ammo for. Price is good. The Bad: minimum order 1000 rnds. Not all offerings listed online. The ugly: not really any ugly.

[cwtebay]

NCBB, some major brass companies have gone out of business over the past several years and what were often sold on sites like Grafs were leftover stock. Bertram may exist but if so, no one carries them that I find. Jameson became Captech Intl which went out of business. I haven't found a distributor for Quality Cartridge co; they list Grafs, but then denied to me that they work with them...odd. Possibly Rocky Mountain Ctg co, though they are I believe turned brass from solid stock. Not offered by Huntington Die Specialties, at least not listed on website, haven't called. A company I purchased from is called Load-X out in California. They list 351 WSL ammo as currently in stock. They do not sell just brass, but the ammo is properly head stamped. I lucked into some 25-20 brass they happened to have an over stock that they listed on GunBroker. Based upon that one purchase and email communication the service was very good.

I am still experimenting with turning my 351 brass from 357 max. I have the rims turned down. Planning to turn the extractor groove.. just because I'm a little ambitious about making them "correct", not even sure why, just a personality quirk :-)I have purchased Quality Cartridge products from Graf's as well as Selway Armory. Also, Bertram is being imported by a company in Idaho. You can order anything from them you would like - 200 piece minimum order though (and the "soft brass" statement is all too true, unfortunately). I had Rocky Mountain Cartridge make me some properly headstamped 236 lee navy brass a while back. It looked fantastic but only lasted 2 reloading cycles and case heads began to fail, which I understand is not unusual in turned brass cases.

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[leadman]

Don't know if the following info will help out or not but Winchester just released info on a new cartridge at the Shot Show. It is called the 350 Legend, a little longer than the 357 Max and rimless. There are lots of YouTube videos on the presentation at the SS but no field use other than ads from Winchester. Don't know if or when it will hit the open market.
CMMG worked with Winchester on the development and has ARs in the works for it. Winchester is offering the chambering in a bolt gun.

[cwtebay]

Don't know if the following info will help out or not but Winchester just released info on a new cartridge at the Shot Show. It is called the 350 Legend, a little longer than the 357 Max and rimless. There are lots of YouTube videos on the presentation at the SS but no field use other than ads from Winchester. Don't know if or when it will hit the open market.
CMMG worked with Winchester on the development and has ARs in the works for it. Winchester is offering the chambering in a bolt gun.Here's something kind of interesting. I came across a mosin nagant carbine chambered in 351 wsl on a bargain table a few years ago. It's definitely not a wall hanger, but it's been fun to play with. I have loaded some of the upper end loads ( and beyond) with this one. The results have been:
180gr jacketed 2521fps
150gr (swaged) 2630fps
This firearm is not a tack driver, but will kill ground squirrels at 150 yards with authority.
What I find interesting is that Winchester decided to reinvent its own wheel......a century and a decade later.


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[firefly1957]

Winchester has just redid the old .351 S.L. as the .350 Legend a straight walled .223 case!

I load the 351 for my grandfathers ,1916 made, model 1907 i have a small bag of brass but also use trimmed .223 brass just fine . I have a set of RCBS 351 dies but find that .357 mag reloading dies work as well . A couple points the bullets are only seated .2" and it is best to use a universal case mouth flaring tool to get bullets started in case and the LEE Factory Crimp die for 357 mag will crimp into bullet where you need . For bullets i use .357 bullets that are size down to .351 in a push though sizing die. I have gotten bullets as light as 110 grains to cycle the action in my gun for deer i use the (RESIZED) Sierra 170 gr JHC while it is accurate (1" 50 yard groups) it is a bit destructive on the deer meat!
My gun functions fine with rimless 223 cases trimmed to size i trimmed some short and they still work well. My though is they are held in place by the extractor. The average working pressure of the model 1907 according to Winchester is 48,200 C.U.P. well over 357 magnum pressures add to that a larger capacity and loading data for 357 mag should be plenty safe . I normally get good cycling with maximum 357 Mag. load data with slow powders some of the faster powders would not function at all even when they should have given same velocity and recoil pulse.
I am sure every one here knows the model 1907 & 1910 both fire from a open breech only the bolt weight holds the cartridge in the gun at firing it is one of the reasons the gun is heavy.

[cwtebay]

Winchester has just redid the old .351 S.L. as the .350 Legend a straight walled .223 case!

I load the 351 for my grandfathers ,1916 made, model 1907 i have a small bag of brass but also use trimmed .223 brass just fine . I have a set of RCBS 351 dies but find that .357 mag reloading dies work as well . A couple points the bullets are only seated .2" and it is best to use a universal case mouth flaring tool to get bullets started in case and the LEE Factory Crimp die for 357 mag will crimp into bullet where you need . For bullets i use .357 bullets that are size down to .351 in a push though sizing die. I have gotten bullets as light as 110 grains to cycle the action in my gun for deer i use the (RESIZED) Sierra 170 gr JHC while it is accurate (1" 50 yard groups) it is a bit destructive on the deer meat!
My gun functions fine with rimless 223 cases trimmed to size i trimmed some short and they still work well. My though is they are held in place by the extractor. The average working pressure of the model 1907 according to Winchester is 48,200 C.U.P. well over 357 magnum pressures add to that a larger capacity and loading data for 357 mag should be plenty safe . I normally get good cycling with maximum 357 Mag. load data with slow powders some of the faster powders would not function at all even when they should have given same velocity and recoil pulse.
I am sure every one here knows the model 1907 & 1910 both fire from a open breech only the bolt weight holds the cartridge in the gun at firing it is one of the reasons the gun is heavy.Firefly - where did you get your bullet sizer?

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[firefly1957]

Firefly - where did you get your bullet swager?

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It is a sizer, the company is now out of business the unit takes rings in a 7/8-14 threaded body You can have LEE make one in .351" in the push though sizer they already carry I for get the cast look up Lee reloading online.