How much can they take?

[GregLaROCHE]

There is a thread where someone has just bought a Marlin.45-70 and wants to shoot 405grs @ 2000 ft/min.

I know these guns are a lot stronger than the old trapdoors, but they are not the strongest .45-70s available today.

How much can they take? Does anyone know of one of these guns being damaged due to excessive pressures? What kind of damage occurs? Are the ones from the 80s the same as the ones manufacturered today?

Thanks

[Remmy4477]

Cannot tell you how much they can take.
I can tell you how much my shoulder cannot take!
I have a 2001 Marlin CB in 45-70, when I bought it, it came with 300 rounds of custom loaded ammo. 100 rounds of 405 grn lead loaded at 1400fps and 200 rounds of jacketed flat point loaded up to 1600fps.

Rifles what 7 pounds? After 5 rounds of each my shoulder was very sore for a week, black and blue sore! And that was with a decelorator pad on it.
Saving whats left for "just in case" scenario.

Although have shot a few rounds of the 1600fps in a marlin ported guide gun and the recoil was a bit more manageable.

I cannot imagine shooting a 405 grn at 2000fps out of any levergun, the recoil would kill me!

[john.k]

When i got my Marlin in 1978,I did just that.........called the "Elmer Keith" load ,in Gun Digest that year.....about 55gn 4895/405 bullet.......First shot was at a big pig.........flattened the pig,stock whacked my face like being hit with a 4x2.........I think I fired about 4 of the 40 rounds I loaded,took the rest home and pulled them .And I wernt no old man in those days.........I could keep up with the dogs thru the scrub.

[Guesser]

I picked up a really nice Ruger #1 in 45-70 back in 1999, got a really good deal. I loaded up some 500 gr. Lyman 457125 over a modest charge and hurt myself really bad. Scared me. I took it home, cleaned it up and went to work to find a load I could shoot. I settled on a Lee bullet of less than 350 gr. cast from my alloy and fell in love with the little rifle but I was running that light bullet at less than 1300 using Trap Door load data. It was so accurate and easy to shoot that I never felt under gunned.........Sold it in 2015. Now....no worries!!

[Tatume]

In 2007 I did some testing for a commercial caster using a 458 Win Mag Ruger No. 1. The bullets were 720 grain WFNGC loaded to 1700 fps in Winchester cases. Powders used were IMR 4895, 4198 & 3031. Recoil was severe, but left no scars. In the end, it was decided there was insufficient market for this bullet. I still have 25 bullets, but no plans to shoot them.

[Tatume]

How much can they take? Does anyone know of one of these guns being damaged due to excessive pressures? What kind of damage occurs? Are the ones from the 80s the same as the ones manufacturered today?


Marlin 1895 rifles can withstand the 45-70 Lever Action loads listed on the Hodgdon Reloading Center web site.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[upr45]

I tested some 405gr's at 2000 fps once. The rifle is capable, weakest link is my shoulder! I usually load 405's to 1650-1750 fps and get everything I need to do done there. Actually less would work, however I find that level comfortable for the few shots I do take.

[Gunlaker]

The internet has lots of pictures of blown up Marlin 1895s. Actually I don't remember seeing pictures of any other type of lever gun that had blown up. I think people really like to hotrod them right up to their limits.

I have owned quite a few of them and never went much past 1700 fps with a 400-405gr bullet. Even Garrett does not load their .45-70 cartridges as hot as some of the loading manuals recommend. The Ruger #1 is a better way to go for these types of loads.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Here is one of many threads:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?275002-gun-blew-up

If you google "blown up Marlin 1895" you will find dozens of posts.

Chris.

[Tatume]

The Ruger #1 is a better way to go for these types of loads.

I agree. The Ruger No. 1 is also chambered in 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, and other thumper cartridges. For hunting dangerous game these are better rifles. However, a lot of Marlin 1895 rifles serve as guide rifles in bear country. Here a reliable repeater is needed. Some people like other actions for this application, but the Marlin certainly serves well.

[Gtek]

Apples and oranges maybe between perceived thump and actual pressure. From my understanding the 1895/336 receiver will eat 42K PSI ballpark all day long. The .307/.356 ran up at 50-52K and was causing issue with some it appears, many threads have been read about how they are "getting" away with it so? Pressure and bolt thrust are the overlords in this game of containment. Straight wall cases usually will run in the mid to high thirties in PSI where a bottleneck you can zoom right up to 55K with a 5.56 and over 60 with the big dogs. Newtons laws applied and the variables of cartridge configuration are what bruise the shoulder along with the individuals technique and thresholds for thump. A Marlin 30 W.C.F. with a 150/170 is a crack and nothing bad, grab a 450M/45-70 with a hand load and it will make you wonder if you want another squeeze even with 15 to 20% less chamber pressure. The nice thing about the big dogs is that one can run projectiles varying a couple hundred grains at how hard you want it from mild to wild. I am still enjoying my Thumpers!

[Larry Gibson]

FYI only. None of these are applicable to a Marlin because of OAL and psi.

62 gr of H4895 under a 400 gr Speer (seated long to the bottom canalure groove) ran 1978 fps at 36,200 psi(M43) out of my Siamese Mauser 45-70 with a 24" barrel.

The Barnes O SP over 63 gr RL7 runs 2250 fps at 62,700 psi(M43)

The Lee C457-500-FB over 50 gr H4895 runs 1770 fps at 50,900 psi(M43)

[LIMPINGJ]

I got my 1895 when Marlin reintroduced them in 1972 and worked up to the 53gr of 3031 and a Remington 405gr load that Elmer wrote about in Guns&Ammo. That was enough in that light a rifle with the factory butplate.

[bikerbeans]

If you look at the threaded shank of a Marlin 1895 45-70 barrel i don't think you would want to hot rod it. There isn't much metal between the threads. The barrel is also quiet thin where it is relieved for clearance on the mag tube.

BB

[Hickory]

A fool and half of his face are soon parted.

[Uncle Grinch]

I’ve got two 45-70’s, a Marlin CB and a Siamese Mauser. Been shooting them for many years. About 15 years ago I bought a partial box of Hornady 500 grain soft point bullets. Thought I would try them in my Mauser. Loaded up 5 rounds and after shooting two I had to check my fillings in my teeth! Man that was some kind of recoil. I broke down the remaining and still have what’s left in the box.

I would not try that in my Marlin...

[Texas by God]

The reason for the birth of the .450 Marlin. Already stout and won't fit in any other chamber.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Gunlaker]

Uncle Grinch I have some of those 500gr bullets. I've shot them out of a Ruger #1 using Hornady starting loads of IMR-3031. In my first Ruger #1 they weren't too bad, but that rifle had a limbsaver pad on it. My latest #1 does not and it seems to be a lighter rifle too. The recoil is really nasty.

Chris.

[reivertom]

Get a good reloading manual and it will tell you exactly what too much is.

[M-Tecs]

Hodgdon is comfortable with 40,000 CUP as are numerous other reloading manuals.

Garrett is more conservative.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

" There are many opinions regarding prudent pressure limits for the 45-70 lever-gun. They range from those advocating 28,000-cup/28,000-psi load levels, to those advocating 42,000-cup/45,000-psi load levels. It is our view that given the mechanical characteristics of the modern 45-70 lever-gun, and the enormous amount of power that can be achieved within modest chamber pressure levels, the prudent course leads to a point somewhere in between. We have chosen to impose a maximum average chamber pressure limit for our 45-70 Hammerhead Ammo of 33,000-cup/35,000-psi. It is often claimed that the Marlin 1895 is completely safe with load levels up to 43,000-PSI, and that the modern Winchester 1886 is safe to 50,000-psi. This analysis is based on the strength of the respective lockups. We do not take exception with these claims. "

[Hamish]

OP is asking the wrong question.

"How long can I make my firearm last by shooting moderate loads that are enjoyable and will motivate me to shoot it more?"

[country gent]

I have to add this along the lines of what Hamish posted. How many rounds will the rifle be good for with trapdoor level loads ? And then How many rounds will it be good for at full bore pressure levels of almost double. Then what will the extra velocity gain you with the same weight bullets? he 9mm is a good example of this the standard saami 9mm level loadings and the gun last a long time. Some agencies have claimed gun life cut in half simply Going to the 9MM +P+ loadings as a steady diet. Another is the K frame smiths, a steady diet of light 38 wadcutters and the pistol will run fine forever. Buy one in 357 mag and a full diet of full house loads and life of the pistol is drastically diminished.

While not a overload, these loads are stout. There is the known factor of metal fatigue to consider in this. A piece or part subjected to set pressure levels will fail at a certain point from this. Upping pressure and the stress speeds the failure up. What I'm saying is it may not happen in 100rds or 400rds but what about 800rds or 1000rds of these hot loads? Metal fatigue is cumulative and builds up to the fail point with use.

In the 45-70 500 grn bullets ( most of fairly soft lead or paper patched) at roughly 1200 fps killed a lot of buffalos, elk and moose and other game back in the day. With the bullets not being recovered.

[M-Tecs]

Firearms are designed to withstand proof loads. Countries like England and Italy require that every firearm be fired with proof loads. A "Proof Load" is one that subjects the firearm to 150% of the SAAMI/ C.I.P maximum for the load. Even at 150% this pressure is not great enough to start metal fatigue since the Endurance Limit has not been exceeded. Once the Endurance Limit has been exceeded metal fatigue becomes a factor. The S&W K frame stretching and throat cracking are a good example of exceeding endurance limit.. The 9mm +P+ not so much. The reduced service life is mostly due to increased slide velocity.

http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engineering_basics/fatigue_in_metals.htm

"In general, steel alloys which are subjected to a cyclic stress level below the Endurance Limit (EL) (properly adjusted for the specifics of the application) will not fail in fatigue. That property is commonly known as "infinite life". Most steel alloys exhibit the infinite life property"

https://caeai.com/blog/how-calculate-fatigue-life-when-load-history-complex

https://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/1849770/06156G_Sample.pdf/6202c5f3-9ae8-479b-a8bd-d2050d37d534

Some very good discussion on the K Frames http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/220719-k-frame-357-magnum.html

[crankycalico]

the thing is, the trapdoor load was a proven cartridge at long range. Seriously, it was designed to shoot a horse out from someone at what, 300 yards? Its still got better penetration at 1000 yards then the garret 44 magnum ammo does at 20 yards.

[Petander]

400 grains @ 2000 fps using Vihtavuori N130 or N133 has been safe and reasonable in my modern Marlin 1895's for twenty years. Many thousands of rounds, both hotter and milder. We also have CIP proof firing here for every firearm sold.

This doesn't mean that 2000 fps is safe with your powder or load or Marlin. But modern Marlins don't need to be limited to trapdoor pressures,unless one wants to. My moose load was a Speer 400 @ 2150 fps for many years, I then cut down to Hornady 350 at the same velocity. Now my new SBL takes recoil even better than my previous Marlin.


Everyone be safe out there. Things like Quick Load can be helpful, we all load differently,every firearm is different.

[Hickok]

Plain and simple for me, I can load up my Marlin 1895 to power levels that I can not stand to shoot!

The pain soon overcomes the joy of shooting!

[samari46]

As Bikerbeans said one of the weak points is where the receiver is drilled for the mag tube. If you look at just about any Marlin the top of the receiver just where the barrel screws is smaller also. All of my Marlins are in 30-30,except one which is a 444 Marlin. love them but do not subscribe to hot loads. And while not exactly recoil shy the 444 lets you know when you pull the trigger with even factory loads. Never did reloads for the 444. Only one gunshop in town and does not stock any handloading supplies. So that means ordering out. Next step up is my Ruger #1 in 45/70 and learned a long time ago hot loads like a 300 gr jhp @2000 fps can and does turn that little rifle into a bucking beast. Definitely not for me. The same 300gr jhp at 1600fps is nice and accurate. But then again different strokes for different folks. Happy New Year. Frank

[GregLaROCHE]

For those following this thread, this may be of interest. Apparently, 2000 ft/sec with a 400 gr. Boolit is not that knew of an idea. I’m starting to think the lever actions my really be able to take the pressure.

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/KeithPumpkin.pdf

[Petander]

I found some hunting memories.

This is how a +2000 fps Speer 400 looks after passing through a moose, lung shot ,stopping at the hide on the other side. They still weigh 380 grains. Fired from 30-50 yds.

Moose never goes far.

233153

[Speedo66]

For me the limiting factor is recoil, not pressure. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a wuss when it comes to that, nothing to prove.

I had an original Trapdoor carbine and I wouldn't even finish a box at a time with commercial trapdoor loads off a bench. It's gone.

[Harter66]

I'm told they will take 40 kpsi in a steady diet .
That generally means anything on the shelf jacketed or lead .
For us it means gas check designs .

I took the NOE version of the 458132 , 535 Postell , at a raging 1100 fps at 4,000 ft MSL it shot 3" at 100 and nice round holes . At 50 , 100 ,& 150 the elevation numbers from the Strelok app matched within my shooting abilities and means of measures . By the app that load carries 1000 ft lbs past 350 yd , drop is measured in feet but eyeball hold over is an 18" circle to 200 yd starting with a 150 yd zero . That's 8" high at 100 and 8" low at 200 .

The 458193 at 1600 fps is ..........at least a R/R locomotive with plenty of steam left past 500 yd , 200 yd hold over shrinks to 8" with a 150 yd zero .
The catch is that you pay the fiddler at the butt end . At least with a 7# 18" 1895G or the 20" 1895 G SS you do , not brutally but it's pretty obvious that you've sent an oz of lead on it's way .

I ran into the same thing with a 350 in a 460 Smith/45 Raptor in a 6.5# rifle at about 1800 fps it just stopped being any fun at all .

As mentioned 10s of thousands of Bison have fallen to the TD loads mostly 405-535 gr loads just over super sonic and my testing would seem to show me that there's no flies on it as a subsonic either .

I think if you need a flat shooting 45 cal rifle then the answer is to step up to the 45-110-405 that gives up about 100 fps and 100# with 10" more barrel to the 458 WM with the same 405 JSP . See Lyman #47,48,49 or 50 for details . Of course you can just go straight to the 458 Lott or 460 Weatherby .

There are of course lever guns with longer actions like the 86 that will feed the properly seated 535 Postell bullet and it's ilk are available making other 405s with more nose and less case intrusion practical also .

I guess the question is why does everyone want to make a 458 out of a 45-70 . I get using the whole case and certainly more aerodynamic bullets . But why try to make an F250 run 24 hr at LeMans ?

I tried to get a NOE diminsional copy of the 300 TAC-X at about 425 gr but no takers so whatever works for you I guess .

[Ramjet-SS]

Man these loads used to attract me like a fly to honey. Not anymore they plain hurt. Heavy loads nowadays for me require a heavy rifle to take up some of that recoil. My 450 Marlin Ina Winchester TD is about all I can enjoy with full house 300 grain loads. I like heavy at moderate velocity or lower that's fun.

[Petander]

I also enjoy 325 grainers a lot these days.

I remember these Marlin 1895 strength discussions from years back, around 2005 or so Vihtavuori updated their 45-70 load data. I even wrote somewhere, maybe here, that "my idiot loads just became reasonable overnight".

I tend to think that we are reloading for certain action strength,not cartridge. 444,450,45-70 Marlins in this case. But the old 45-70 pressure data/ liability issues are going strong. I don't want any of my reloads ever meet an antique 45-70.

Everybody stay safe.

[Drm50]

I have a early Marlin 1895 from 70s. The only reason I kept it was its accuracy. I have several original levers from late 1800- early 1900 and they all have wood flush with actions. I didn't like the
extra wood on the newer Marlins. I remove a lot of wood from the stock & forend. You can't tell where wood and metal join. I would say I removed 25% of the stock, this reduced the area of butt
plate considerably. For years I shot gun with 330gr cast HPs and only used it for target and a few
varmits. Loaded to 1200fps, it wasn't bad if you weren't on bench. A few years ago Ohio got limited
rifle deer season and the 1895 was only legal caliber rifle I owned. I loaded up a box of 400gr Barnes
at 1600fps with IMR-3031 and rifle was unpleasant to shoot. I'm now with 300gr Hornady JHP at close to 2000fps and it's not nearly as bad. If I had it to do over again I would have left shotgun butt
alone. The 25% of butt plate removed translates into more felt recoil.

[FergusonTO35]

OP is asking the wrong question.

"How long can I make my firearm last by shooting moderate loads that are enjoyable and will motivate me to shoot it more?"

Exactly! If you need real magnum rifle power, you can buy a Weatherby Vanguard .375 H&H for about the same price as a Remlin 1895. Use the right tool for the job,and you will always have good results!

[Tom W.]

Limbsavers work wonders.......

[Texas by God]

Limbsavers work wonders.......Amen. I won't bench test any rifle bigger than 30-30 without a slip on unless it has a good pad already. My new right shoulder cost a lot. About $30 for the Limbsaver.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RED BEAR]

i don't understand why people can't be happy with what they have. if you need more power buy a bigger gun. i do hand load for the 444 and shoot a lot of 240 and 250 grain bullets i will load some 310 grain bullets but my old shoulder just can't take muck punishment anymore. my brother has a 45/70 marlin but he will not shoot my 444. i don't see much difference although he only shoots factory ammo and most 45/70 ammo is loaded to trap door levels.

[M-Tecs]

I am very happy with what I have. I have a bunch of calibers I can load from very mild to wild SAFELY. What I can't understand are people that THINK they know what my needs or wants are. I don't understand why some are so intolerant of differing view points???????????

[Winger Ed.]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".

[Hickory]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".

Amen, amen and amen.

[Tom W.]

That isn't always so. I have two rifles that I had rechambered time A.I. calibers. Not because I wanted more power, as I already had that covered, but because I wanted them. According to my records I don't load " official" a.i. loads in either one, but I enjoy having them.

The shooting, casting, and hand loading sport we all share is for our individual enjoyment. I ain't gonna load up something because someone on the forum says what I load is a wimpy load or should be faster or slower or with a heavier, lighter, lead, copper, vld or whatever. I do to please myself. I like the cloverleaf groups 2" high @ 100 yards with my 30-06 a.i., or the tiny groups @ 50 yards with fire forming loads with my 30/30 a.i. We really need to enjoy our sport and be helpful if someone asks, but not deride or belittle someone if their opinion is different.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Well wrote Tom !

[richhodg66]

There seems to be something about the .45-70, particularly in the Marlin lever guns, which seems to attract the kind of morons who just have to push the envelope and usually have no idea what they're doing. It's one thing to be an experienced handloader and attempt such things, but I joined a facebook group on the .45-70 and had to leave it after the umpteenth ******* made his first post of "tell me what your hottest load with bullet xyz is". Just couldn't handle the stupidity anymore. There are also handloaders out there who clearly don't understand what is going on regarding interior ballistics and won't listen.

My experience with the .45-70 is not vast, but I only load well within Trapdoor levels, and the one deer I killed in woods conditions using a 330 grain bullet and 30 grains of 5744 (wimpy even by trapdoor standards) went down in two steps after having the bullet go all the way through nearly lengthwise. I'll keep loading to save wear on the gun and me, if I need to step up, I'll reach for the .458.

[FergusonTO35]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".

Lots of folks are trying to turn the 6.5 Creedmoor into a .264 Winchester Mag. Since they are using strong modern bolt actions I suppose the danger isn't nearly as great as putting a Ruger only .45-70 load into a Trapdoor, but still it can't be good for barrel life or getting many reloads out of your brass. My 6.5 is a joy to shoot at 2400 fps and will do anything I could ever try to do with it.

[Potsy]

The question that keeps lingering in my mind is what are folks trying to accomplish by loading the .45-70 to capacity in a Marlin Levergun? Not that 40KPSI loads are a waste of time. Not at all. It just seems that there's a couple different reasons for doing so.

Are you trying to make it shoot flatter? 325 grain pointy Hornady FTX's at 2000fps plus would be an example. Coupled with a good Mil/Mil optic to take advantage of increased aerodynamics and speed would take the concept even further.

Hit harder? Greater shock? 400 grain softs at 1900fps would do. Penetrate deeper and hit harder? 400 grain plus LBT's at the aforementioned 1900fps should lengthwise anything walking in the lower 48.

No doubt such loads are rough at the buttplate. I'd not fret loading 400 grainers to 18-1900fps with the appropriate powder out of a Marlin anymore than I fret loading 100 grainers to 3200fps out of a .25-06. But I do tend to take purpose, game, and bullet construction vs. velocity all into account and ask myself what I'm trying to accomplish whenever I work up a handload for anything, including the .45-70.

[Hickory]

All of this dangerous effort to get,... what? More velocity, power just to kill what, a punny little deer?
Buy a 460 Weatherby (sp) or a mean mule if you like getting kicked around.

[M-Tecs]

Dangerous effort???????????? This is straight from Hodgdon's Safety Bulletin.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/website-warnings-rifle-pistol.pdf

45 Colt: 45 Colt data is listed in two categories. The first is intended for original Colt revolvers and their replicas. Max pressure, is 14,000 CUP. The second category is 45 Colt (Ruger Blackhawk, Freedom Arms and Thompson/Center Contender/Encore handguns. Max pressure, 30,000 CUP. Do not use these data in any other make or model of firearm.

45-70 Government data usage: 45-70 data is listed in the following three divisions based on pressure levels for only the firearms intended:

45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifle): These data are intended for Springfield “Trapdoor”, Rolling Block and Antique Replicas. Max pressure, 28,000 CUP. At 28,000 CUP and PSI are the same.

45-70 Government (Lever Action): These data are intended for the 1895 lever action Marlin, ONLY. Max pressure, 40,000 CUP. Do not use these data in any of the firearms listed in the Trapdoor section. That is apx. 43,000 PSI

45-70 Government (Modern Rifles): These data are only for Ruger No. 1 and No. 3 single-shot rifles, Browning 1885 single-shots and Siamese bolt-action rifles. Max pressure, 50,000 CUP. Do not use these data in either of the prior two sections of 45-70 data (Trapdoor and Lever Actions).

[Harter66]

High velocity to flatten trajectory ......... No high BC to flatten trajectory .
The Hornady and Barnes 300-350 gr bullets gain nothing for their shape with BCs of .18-19 . Yes you can run them hard but not really any harder than than a GC cast with the same BC . The only way to beat gravity are by getting there faster and the only way to get there faster is to beat the wind resistance and keep the velocity longer/futher .

You don't get a done tender steak quickly by just turning up the heat and you don't get a flatter flight by just pushing harder . Grab your Speer manual look in the back compare .38 BC at 1200 fps to .18 at 2000 fps . I haven't looked but I'm willing to bet at 300 yd the faster bullet doesn't have much of an edge left in energy , velocity or trajectory . Recoil is likely awfully close too .

[GregLaROCHE]

400 grains @ 2000 fps using Vihtavuori N130 or N133 has been safe and reasonable in my modern Marlin 1895's for twenty years. Many thousands of rounds, both hotter and milder. We also have CIP proof firing here for every firearm sold.

This doesn't mean that 2000 fps is safe with your powder or load or Marlin. But modern Marlins don't need to be limited to trapdoor pressures,unless one wants to. My moose load was a Speer 400 @ 2150 fps for many years, I then cut down to Hornady 350 at the same velocity. Now my new SBL takes recoil even better than my previous Marlin.


Everyone be safe out there. Things like Quick Load can be helpful, we all load differently,every firearm is different.

How much N130 are you using with 400 gr boolit for 2000 ft/sc?
Thanks

[JFE]

If you want the strongest lever action in 45/70 get an 1886 clone. The problem with the Marlin is that Marlin engineers shoehorned the 45/70 in what is essentially an action designed for the 30/30 class of cartridges. In order to do this there is very little steel left in the receiver between the bottom of the chamber and the top of the magazine opening. This is where Marlins tend to come apart.

There are other issues. The load port and ejection port have been opened up, weakening that side of the receiver. Another problem cited is the expanded mag tube to allow the cartridge to feed through the magazine. Under certain circumstances the cartridge is believed to have greater movement allowing the sharp edge of hard cast bullets to rest against the primer of the cartridge in front. One custom cartridge manufacturer thought this was such a liability that they have 45/70 cases made with a small rifle primer to reduce the risk.

Having said all that, used sensibly an 1895 Marlin in 45/70 is perfectly fine. I have had one since 1974 and still use fairly hefty loads (420 gr at 1850 fps). The receiver itself is still tight but the parts that secure magazine to the barrel have had to be repaired.

The rifle can take loads developing 2000 fps with a 400 gr pill but the recoil is quite savage in a 7lb rifle. Drop velocity to 1850 fps and recoil reduces significantly and pressures are around 30K. That extra 10K of pressure only yields an extra 100-150fps. If that difference is important to you you're better off using a larger rifle.

With the right cast bullet design you can load some 1886 clones to 45/90 length without altering the chamber. This extra length and greater receiver strength allows you increase the performance. If you want more power and happy to use open sights, one of the 1886 clones is great option. I also have a Browning 1886 but I still reach for the Marlin more often. It's lighter and fits me perfectly.

[35remington]

Said by a guy that has done some experimenting with the 336 action, which is also the 45-70 action, in a methodical way:

Take your selected load of 1800 or 1900 whatevers and go to the range. Take two cases with you and load your selected load repeatedly, noting case growth per shot. This will tell you much about the load being placed upon the rifle and its suitability for long term use. If you are seeing a lot of case growth per shot, that ain’t good. Back things down.

The hottest Marlin cartridges in the MX series were supposedly factory loaded to the 47,000 psi vicinity, and no more, in skinnier cartridges than the 45-70, which implies the 45-70 should be well below that. Quite frankly I would rather stay below 35,000 in such a large diameter cartridge.

The area occupied by the locking lug, if that is the correct term, in the bolt notch at the rear of the bolt is not particularly large. I cannot see subjecting parts that have some slack in them when engaged to heavy pressures and hard slamming. Overloading a Marlin 45-70 will at some point make the rifle start to say uncle and your cases will start hollering for your attention.

Take notice of things if and when that starts occurring and back down until it no longer occurs. If you want to know you have to put in the effort. Take the time to pay attention and quantify what is occurring. Things are proceeding well when not much is going on.

I suspect that to be true of a lot of things, but most particularly here.

[gundownunder]

Lee's second edition maxes out the 405 gr load at about 1800 fps in the 95 Marlin
I don't think I'd want to be at either end when the hammer falls.
I shot a friends 350 gr at 1650 and that was enough for my geriatric shoulder.
I don't know about your side of the pond but over here the used gun racks have a steady supply of 45-70 rifles that have shot less than one box of ammo.
I guess if you're compensating for something you need the brass ones to back it up :-D :-D :-D

[Tom W.]

Oh to be young and "adventuresome" again, willing to shoot anything that was safe and didn't have to be tied to a log as you hid behind the tree and pulled the string......

[CLAYPOOL]

Whats wrong with the talk about 10 Gr's. or so of Unique and 405 gr. bullet or a collar button or some such.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=gundownunder;4542761]Lee's second edition maxes out the 405 gr load at about 1800 fps in the 95 Marlin
I don't think I'd want to be at either end when the hammer falls.
I shot a friends 350 gr at 1650 and that was enough for my geriatric shoulder.
I don't know about your side of the pond but over here the used gun racks have a steady supply of 45-70 rifles that have shot less than one box of ammo.

You noticed too! Dont see many long barreled rifles amongst them tho.

[robg]

if you want 458win mag performance buy a 458win mag.

[beagle]

I have owned a Number 1 Ruger and then bought a M1895 Marlin years back. Now, the Marlin still resides and the Number 1 is gone because the Marlin would outshoot it.
Both the .45/70 and .38/55 acquired their reputation as big game killers with BP velocities on the shy side of 1500 FPS. 1338 FPS for the old .45/70 load as I recall. I normally keep mine on the shy side of 1500 FPS and they are accurate and I enjoy shooting them.
But, this is nothing new. Back in it's military days, the standard load was a hefty one and fired in the heavy trapdoor Springfield rifle...and it kicked. Look up the Sandy Hook Tests of the .45/70 at ranges over a mile. The Calvary had their trapdoor carbines and even those rough riding gents eventually got carbine loads for the lighter rifles although there is no official evidence remaining.

IMO, there is no reason to use a 105mm howitzer to kill a deer, elk or bear. If you want that performance, get a 105mm howitzer and don't try and push the .45/70 into that category and injure yourself, a bystander and a good rifle. Many tragedies have started with the words, "Now, watch this!"/beagle