How do you manage?

[crankycalico]

I decided to hit the little pawn shop in town today, got slightly scared.

I found a genuine fabrique nationale of Belgium mauser, it had scope mounts on it so I couldn't see the rather interesting floral wreath crest. But it had been sporterized.

The jeweled bolt wasn't bad,, but the safety was an odd modification. It was the standard mauser safety but two position, straight up locked bolt and trigger, all the way to right let it fire and operate the bolt.

The barrel was stepped all the way, no caliber markings, the receiver itself looked as if it was a short action, and the seller claimed it was a 30-06.

They had two sporterized 1903 springfields, one a 2.5 million number and a 3.4 million. cheap one 700, pricey one 999$
Really massacred, only the action was original. Both had the horizontal win m70 safety and from im seeing it could cost almost half what the lesser of them cost. Although the expensive one had a stock very similar to a m14 or m1 garand.

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

[Earlwb]

Don't buy them unless the guns are going for a really really low price.

[frkelly74]

If, as in the past, I find them for $100 plus or minus I get them as a new toy. At the time ,back then, the saying went, " an original military surplus in fine condition can be bought for $200 and then you improve it for another $200 and end up with a $100 rifle."You can put in your own numbers to keep up with the rate of inflation but the idea has some validity to it perhaps. And there are indeed exceptions.

[dverna]

I will not even bother with them. Makes more sense to buy a T/C Compass for $225 when they are on sale and have the rebate. Easy to mount a scope, can get a variety of calibers, easily scoped, accurate, and a warranty.

Mil slurps are for nostalgia or matches that require them.

[leebuilder]

I assess on condition as a whole or as usable parts for the price. Barrel condition is the biggest factor the rest I can fix or replace. Some times you just got to say no and walk away.
Mismatched rifles are a hit and miss and should be priced accordingly. Some rifles have a history ie specific build, it all boils down to the price you are willing to pay, and do your research.
Be well

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Lots of years ago one could buy a milsurp and make a nice hunting rifle from it. Today the factories produce better, less expensive rifles than you end up with after going through the sporterizing process, so it no longer makes economic sense. In addition, the "as-issued" milsurps become fewer each year and sporterizing them is becoming a desecration of history when ready-made rifles exist that will perform the same job and probably do it better.
However, for the hobbyist, there is still a lot of satisfaction to be had in taking a rifle that Bubba did his thing to, and either setting it right or finishing the job to a higher standard. Also, there's a lot to be learned in performing the tasks needed to make Bubba's rifle both presentable and useful. So, I look at each one I run across and say to myself, "Now what could I do with this one.....?

[gnoahhh]

Well said.

On a personal level, I still look at European milsurps as fair game for building custom rifles. It's their history not mine as far as I'm concerned. I don't venerate German Mausers that could've easily been used to try and kill my forebears. But that's a moot point due to the insane price levels they are attaining.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

In the 1950's and 60's, surplus rifles were in every department store and gas station. Mail order rifles cost $10-$35 and NOBODY CARED about collectables unless pristine in the Cosmolene new. New Marlin 336's were $65, Winchester 70 over $100, weekly wages, $100-$125. Rifles were tools to go hunting. The 1968 Firearms Act ( the start of it all) was supported by American firearms manufacturers to stop th influx of cheap military surplus. Woorying about whether a Savage 99 would be ruined as a collectable by adding sling swivels, a recoil pad and scope sights was considered none of any bodies business but the owners. If you don't like something DON'T BUY IT. Years ago the changes made somebody happy.

[Adam Helmer]

I decided to hit the little pawn shop in town today, got slightly scared.

I found a genuine fabrique nationale of Belgium mauser, it had scope mounts on it so I couldn't see the rather interesting floral wreath crest. But it had been sporterized.

The jeweled bolt wasn't bad,, but the safety was an odd modification. It was the standard mauser safety but two position, straight up locked bolt and trigger, all the way to right let it fire and operate the bolt.

The barrel was stepped all the way, no caliber markings, the receiver itself looked as if it was a short action, and the seller claimed it was a 30-06.

They had two sporterized 1903 springfields, one a 2.5 million number and a 3.4 million. cheap one 700, pricey one 999$
Really massacred, only the action was original. Both had the horizontal win m70 safety and from im seeing it could cost almost half what the lesser of them cost. Although the expensive one had a stock very similar to a m14 or m1 garand.

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

cranky,

I bought my first military surplus rifle in 1958 for $13.88. That M38 Carcano in 7.35MM was not cheap enough even back then. I still have it and later bought better deer rifles of Mauser and Enfield flavors.

Back in the late 1950s and 1960s, many fine military arms were available in the $15-$25 range. Many deer hunters bought those rifles and had to make them lighter. Thus we had the hacksaw "Sporterization" of far too many fine military arms.

Just yesterday I was asked by a local FFL Licensee to help him identify and catalogue 20 or 25 "old army guns" an old guy brought in to be sold. ONLY 3 of the lot were as issued. The others were "butchered" by hacksaw and not too valuable. The worst case was an otherwise pristine VZ-24 8mm dated 1937 with a Jap 7.7 bolt jammed into the boltway! The next horror story was a 7.7MM Jap rifle with a wooded butt plate, fixed peep rear sight and rough overall appearance. It was a "Last Ditch" rifle that may be merely pot metal and I advised the dealer so.

A dozen rifles including U.S. Krags, M1903 Springfields, SMLEs and several Mausers were merely valuable as "Parts Guns" in my opinion. None were worth more than $75-$100 of my money. We should have banned hacksaws back in 1960!

Adam

[crankycalico]

cranky,

I bought my first military surplus rifle in 1958 for $13.88. That M38 Carcano in 7.35MM was not cheap enough even back then. I still have it and later bought better deer rifles of Mauser and Enfield flavors.

Back in the late 1950s and 1960s, many fine military arms were available in the $15-$25 range. Many deer hunters bought those rifles and had to make them lighter. Thus we had the hacksaw "Sporterization" of far too many fine military arms.

Just yesterday I was asked by a local FFL Licensee to help him identify and catalogue 20 or 25 "old army guns" an old guy brought in to be sold. ONLY 3 of the lot were as issued. The others were "butchered" by hacksaw and not too valuable. The worst case was an otherwise pristine VZ-24 8mm dated 1937 with a Jap 7.7 bolt jammed into the boltway! The next horror story was a 7.7MM Jap rifle with a wooded butt plate, fixed peep rear sight and rough overall appearance. It was a "Last Ditch" rifle that may be merely pot metal and I advised the dealer so.

A dozen rifles including U.S. Krags, M1903 Springfields, SMLEs and several Mausers were merely valuable as "Parts Guns" in my opinion. None were worth more than $75-$100 of my money. We should have banned hacksaws back in 1960!

Adam


some of those old vintages are impossible to get replacement parts for, short of having a machine shop do custom work.

Its a real loss of history when it happens. Regardless of what side it fought on, and regardless of how that nation feels about themselves or their pasts.

Sure it might have been FUN cutting that arisaka sniper rifle with 3 foot barrel down into a nice handy 18 inch carbine back in 1953, but finding an arisaka sniper now is gonna burn you to nearly 2000.

They just have a reassuring effect, those old rifles. Millions of men, American and otherwise, have spent thousands of hours clutching these rifles while they waited out shell barrages or waited till the next hourly march across a half mile of shell holes under machine gun fire.

[Peregrine]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

I pour a stiff drink, then hold my rifles close and tell that that it's okay, they're safe with me.

[richhodg66]

Once in a while, I run across a sporterized milsurp that is a good deal. I picked up a well done '93 Mauser in 7x57 this past year that has quickly endeared itself to me. I really like the dimensions and handling characteristics of it and it's a good shooter with cast.

I also bought a nicely sporterized Krag, very nice rifle, but more money than that 7x57, I'd still do it again. The argument that I could have bought one of the super cheapies available at Wal Mart now doesn't cut it for me. B-O-R-I-N-G and besides, a good sporter just feels better to me than the tupperware jobs, but to each his own.

[Petrol & Powder]

The days of the good military surplus rifles are all but over.
Der Gebirgsjager captured the situation perfectly in his post, the inexpensive decent ones are gone and the un-molested originals are too historic now to modify. Every once in a while you'll run across a sporterized rifle that wasn't too butchered but those are rarely worth the cost compared to a new rifle.

[Texas by God]

Sportered Mausers draw me like a moth to a flame. I want to see what was done and how well it was done and like DG- what can I do with this?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ShooterAZ]

Some of the sporterized milsurp rifles done in the 1930's, 40's and even the 50's are a work of art (think sportered 1903 Springfields). I mean the true gunsmith examples. Once in a blue moon they pop up, and the workmanship on some of them is second to none. No, they don't retain collector value as an original, but I admire them just the same.

[RED BEAR]

military surplus used to be for people like me that couldn't afford a new rifle i can't count the guns i have bought from 19 to under 100 dollars . now they cost more than a new rifle. i guess my days of mil surplus are long since past. and as a kicker instead of new unissued condition that most of what i used to buy most now are pretty much jun k. saw an 8mm mauser the other day in a gun store wanted 500 for it and barrel looked like they used salt water to clean it.

[crankycalico]

Some of the best engineering and manufacturing went into these military rifles. They may not seem like much today, but when you have that enfield, springfiend, nagant, mauser in hand you have something.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've heard that a Chinese curse goes: "May you live in interesting times." But some of us have lived through interesting gun-times. A bit before my time, WW II cut off almost all civilian rifles as the machining time was needed to produce weapons for the war effort. After the war there were only a relative few models available such as the Win. '94. The surplus rifles came flooding in to fill the void at very reasonable prices. My first high power rifle was a Lee Enfield No. I Mk. III* obtained at age 14 in 1956. It served very well to down my first buck with a 215 gr. Peters .303 British round. I still have it, unaltered. Over the years some Bubba-ized specimens came may way, and those I couldn't restore I turned into very decent sporters.
232996 232991
My first. A rescued rifle.

As the years passed and the production of civilian rifles increased, and the price of military surplus arms increased, as did the cost of sporterizing them, the milsurps became less desirable. But like you've already noted, just in different words, no military sends it's soldiers off to fight with what they consider to be an inferior arm. They were made to withstand the rigors of battle and weather, and millions of men used them to good effect in countless battles. The designs were the best available for the times.

One can not say, however, that a sporterized milsurp is always the equal of or superior to a factory made sporter. It depends almost entirely on who did the work, what their level of gunsmithing knowledge and skill was, and the materials used. Sporterizing military rifles almost became a fad, with every tinkerer working on one in their basement. Some of the old time gunsmiths were true masters of their art, creating rifles that were/are accurate and beautiful; while others, not so skilled, made things that were dangerous. There-in lies the problem, being able to tell the difference.

Someone commented in another thread that they would shun any Mauser that was a pre-1898 model. I try to avoid being confrontational, and didn't reply, but they represent some of the finest rifles ever made. Even today their fit, finish, and craftsmanship is unsurpassed in 95% of all modern firearms. As for their design being unsafe, there is always a fool that can be counted to overcome the built-in safety measures of any design. Look at John Browning's 1911 as an example. Originally made with a thumb safety, a grip safety, and a safety notch in the hammer, but after many years of common use someone decided that it just had to have a firing pin safety. But fools still manage to accidentally shoot themselves or other folks with them, because it isn't the weapon but operator error. Doing stupid things usually brings about stupid results.

About 15 years ago I became very interested in Krag rifles, and encountered somewhat the same situation -- just from an earlier era when Krags were plentiful and cheap. Today they are much more expensive than when I started buying and tinkering with them, but I seemed to hit the trough of the wave and prices were down and chopped guns plentiful. I probably purchased two dozen of them, one here and there, one at a time, mostly off the internet. All had been "gunsmithed" to one degree or another, and probably the most common thing was the addition of a pistol grip to the straight
wrist of the stock. There were all levels of workmanship, from very crude to "almost looks like it was made that way." On some, the visible joint of the added and shaped piece of wood forming the pistol grip had been nicely disguised with good checkering, some looking very pieced in. You could observe a lot of different skill levels in the work. The ones I disliked the most had pipe wrench marks on the barrels.
232994 232995
Some "befores" Some "afters"

Is there a point to this, or is it just reminiscing? Just rambling along, I guess. I agree that there is something substantial about a milsurp sporter, and when you're sitting under a tree waiting for Bambi to amble down the trail you have something interesting to look at and speculate about. I have two nicely done Springfields, one each '03 and '03-A3, plus more of other types, and usually use them in preference to some of the very nice factory made rifles I possess. But it's pretty much nostalgia, because only a few of them can shoot as well as most of today's newly made off-the-shelf rifles. If I would have been born 10 years later, today I'd probably be a big AR fan; but as it is, I kind of lost interest in moving much beyond walnut and blue steel for personal use and possession.

[Texas by God]

That Lee sporter is nice, DG. You're overrun with Krags it seems though. What a problem to have!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

Some of the sporterized milsurp rifles done in the 1930's, 40's and even the 50's are a work of art (think sportered 1903 Springfields). I mean the true gunsmith examples. Once in a blue moon they pop up, and the workmanship on some of them is second to none. No, they don't retain collector value as an original, but I admire them just the same.

DITTO. I'd rather have one of those than a cookie-cutter original any day. Thankfully the collectors (so far) have left them alone, although something marked Niedner or Griffin & Howe will bring premium $$.

----------------------

The origin of the sporterized milsurp goes back deep into the Depression. Was a time when the government was selling Krags mailorder for $3.50, and Trapdoors for $1.75. (Plus postage) Those became the poor man's hunting rifles. Frequent articles published in The Rifleman about how to modify them. It was that or get by with Grandpa's old shot-out smokepole. Krags in particular were popular for conversion to the early high-pressure .22 varmint calibers, like .22 Lovell and the .22 Hornet. I've even got one in .219 Zipper.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the kind words. Coming from an accomplished "smith" like yourself, it's high praise. I had no real idea on how to make a stubbed gun until I read your very comprehensive thread on the subject. Frankly, I'd never even heard of them. Yes, definitely a lot of Krags, most of which I'll never shoot again. But, I got a whale of an education about them.
DG

[uscra112]

'Nother little tidbit about the Krag. In the early 'teens the Army banned them from military marksmanship competitions, because well-tuned Krags were outshooting the Springfields.

This a my .22 Lovell Krag. Magazine cut away, .22 Armory barrel rechambered, made-from-scratch stock. Scope is unmarked, but the mounts scream Stith. Chamber is very tight, as was the fad in the late '30s. I had to make up a special set of brass for it. Wish I could say that I have a 1 MOA load for it, but not yet. The magazine well handily catches ejected brass, which is kinda neat. Second pic is a set trigger arrangement, allegedly designed by Hervey Lovell himself.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Neat! Thanks for showing us your Lovell. Very educational, how the trigger system is designed.

I had never heard that, about the Krags outshooting the Springfield '03s, but think it quite possible.

[Texas by God]

I think they outclass the Springfield. There I said it. Mine shot wonderfully and I miss it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Multigunner]

The Krags were disqualified from one competition (Palma?) because they were using non standard matchgrade ammunition when only standard milspec ammo was allowed. I think they had special matchgrade barrels as well. In full military trim the 1903 was a bit more accurate.

Some military match shooters had the locking lug lapped till the safety lug bore on the receiver turning it into a two lug action. This was said to improve accuracy quiet a bit.

There's a book available at the Internet Archive with quite a bit of information on preparing a Krag for competition, including a simple reversible method of sweetening the trigger.
I'll see if I can find a link for it.

BTW
FN built many Mausers in .30-06 with a scallop cut in the upper receiver ring to allow clip loading of the longer cartridges.
Besides the Infantry short rifles they built many shorter barreled police carbines. I think some went to Morocco among other places.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The scalloped receiver rings were sometimes done after-market. I have 2 Peruvian Mausers that were originally chambered in 7.65mm. In WW II it was determined that those Central and South American countries allied with the Allies would only be responsible for the security of their own countries, and the U.S. offered to supply them with all the .30-06 ammo they could use. So the conversion was made to allow the longer cartridges to enter the receivers in those countries accepting the offer. They are often stamped ".30" on the receiver ring, or on the barrel just forward of the receiver ring. A small problem exists, however, in that they didn't usually re-barrel the rifles to .308, and left them at .311. If you're a reloader you can load the -06 cases with .311 bullets and get some very nice results. Brazil, the one exception, actually sent a battalion of soldiers to fight in Italy, and they were completely outfitted with U.S. weapons.

[Bigslug]

Sporterized guns are a case-by-case thing.

Chopping an original military gun NOW is something of a stoning offense, but in the context of the 1920's through the 1950's, there were so many millions of them lying around that nobody thought there would ever be a shortage. I look at such things as snapshots in time that reflect the lifestyles and economics of the period, and get a kick out of the old peeps and scopes that often come attached to them.

The other thing I consider is that these are beefy, burly, mil-spec actions designed to take the worst an illiterate conscript could dish out. . .as opposed to the current Wal Mart specials that are mostly plastic, aluminum, or stamped sheet metal held together with roll pins, combo'd up with a scope that might as well be a chunk of garden PVC with a marble glued in each end. 1917 Enfield vs. Remington 710 - which do YOU think will wear out first?

So while the collector in me sometimes cringes at the Bubba jobs, if the bores and mechanics are good, there's deals to be had.

[eric123]

My weakness is sporterized 03 Springfields...I've bought 3 over the years, all cheap, all shot great. My latest purchase was a 1930 '03 with a Redfield base and forged bolt. Paid $220 for it. I put it in a rough Greek stock and put a K4 Weaver on it. I have about $350 into my faux'ish sniper...

[richhodg66]

"The other thing I consider is that these are beefy, burly, mil-spec actions designed to take the worst an illiterate conscript could dish out. . .as opposed to the current Wal Mart specials that are mostly plastic, aluminum, or stamped sheet metal held together with roll pins, combo'd up with a scope that might as well be a chunk of garden PVC with a marble glued in each end. 1917 Enfield vs. Remington 710 - which do YOU think will wear out first?"

This is a very valid point. Those actions were designed for combat and all that those kind of situations could dish out. Hard to imagine a hunting situation that could ever cause a problem for one of them.

[uscra112]

My weakness is sporterized 03 Springfields...I've bought 3 over the years, all cheap, all shot great. My latest purchase was a 1930 '03 with a Redfield base and forged bolt. Paid $220 for it. I put it in a rough Greek stock and put a K4 Weaver on it. I have about $350 into my faux'ish sniper...

Lotta good use left in those old steel K-Weavers! My 03-A3 has one, so does the 1917 Enfield sporter, both my 336 Marlins, a 340 Savage, maybe more. Bought 'em all for ~ $75 each at gun shows, they'll last another generation at least.

[frkelly74]

I went down to Baers Sporting goods in St Charles this morning to see if the Remington 03A3 that they had before deer season was still there. It was not, so I was spared the temptation.

[dogmower]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits? A secret desire to strangle anyone who sporterizes a milsurp.

[Peregrine]

233441

[uscra112]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits? A secret desire to strangle anyone who sporterizes a milsurp.

I have no problem at all.

What DOES bother me is the arrogance of individuals who insult sporterized milsurps.

[Bent Ramrod]

I’m old enough to remember when the “originals” were sticking out of 55-gallon drums at the surplus stores, coated with grease, dirt and who knows what else. Your choice, 15-20 bucks. Par with or only slightly more than a name-brand single-shot bolt action .22. A Marlin lever-action .22 went for $40 at the time, IIR; a lot of silver money. At that time, $5-$10 would set you up for a weekend of dining, dancing and movies, with the necessary cruising in between, and $20 would fill at least four grocery bags to the point of splitting. And not beans and rice, either; real First World food, USDA Choice.

One day I went into the local K-Mart, which had a sale on .22 LR, two boxes for a dollar, and saw a rack full of US Krag rifles, $12.50 each. Even at that time, I thought that was an unusually good deal, if you liked Krags, but I had neither $12.50 nor any particular interest in Krags.

And, of course, Ye Olde Hunter was selling some of the surplus rifles by the pound or by the inch length. There were Collectors of such stuff around, but that was pure, raw Collecting Impulse, because they were able to amass a bunch of prime examples for relatively cheap. These Collections rarely were written up in the gun magazines of the time (who cared?), although overviews of the individual models would get an occasional article. The only expensive battle rifles I recall were Garands, typically going for $59.95. The military pistols were being “studied” and written about much more frequently and in more detail, and the interesting ones were starting to get pricey. Mauser Broomhandles, of the routine sort, were $39.95, and thanks to such articles, the sellers were starting to separate the Rare Variations in order to sell them for more.

The rest of the market for such rifles back then were the people who wanted a cheap deer gun for once a year, and those who wanted to see if they had the Gunsmithing Gene and needed something affordable to practice on. More power to them; a lot of good gunsmiths eventually emerged from these practice sessions, and half the reason that the originals are so prized now is because of so many of them were removed from circulation in this way. The Japanese and Italian rifles were generally classed as not worth the effort of converting to sporters, and as a result were the last of the battle rifles to start going up in price. Even in the early Nineties, you could see a lot of them going begging for $25-$40 or so.

The other half of the reason for the price increase is that the milsurp rifle collectors started writing books about them. If you want to amp the value of your collection, whatever it is, write a book about it, point up the “rare variations,” and pull a “Price Guide” out of the ionosphere and put it in the back. It’s like starting a rumor on the Stock Market; visit to a Gun Show six months after publication will show “movement,” i.e., price increases on all the examples of the stuff you’ve written up.

And, of course, as Elmer Keith once said, “Money doesn’t seem to be any easier to get now than it used to be, but it sure buys less now.” If I want something, I grit my teeth, stack the necessary quantity of shin-plasters on the seller’s table, and grab it. Those pieces of paper will be worth less tomorrow, for certain, no matter what the article will cost.

[Baltimoreed]

233533233532233531I’ve gone both ways with project milsurp rifles. The first was a wannabe Krag NRA sporter that wasn’t. I shortened the already shortened bbl, put it in a sporter stock, added a Kraghaus scope mount and a Nikon IER scope and now it’s a handy .30-40 Scout rifle. The other was an .03 Springfield that bubba had sporterized. The rcvr was unmolested but the 21 inch bbl had extra holes. I refinished a scant stock, shortened it proportionately, milled grasping grooves, slicked up the action, refaced the muzzle and now its back in uniform again. Also a good shooter. You’ve got to be flexible in this milsurp hobby.

[Hardcast416taylor]

It doesn`t matter how much money you put into making a sporter from a mil-surp when you take it to a gun shop they only look at the current value of that mil-surp unaltered to offer you. I remember way back when that high school kids brought mil-surps to metal shop class to hack them up into sporters. Most notably were #5 Lee Enfield `Jungle Carbines` having the flash supressor cut off and the 10 round magazine cut in half for a 5 shot variety and welded up.Robert

[KenT7021]

I've built quite a few sporters on military rifles over the years starting in the late 50's.I don't do it anymore but I don't regret doing it.One of my wind falls was when the DP P14's were imported from India.Most of those rifles were used very little before being DP'd.The bores were like new except for the pin run thru the chamber.I actually rebarreled a broomhandle with the front end of a P14 barrel.It worked fine.The actions were used to build magnum caliber rifles.Lots of work required on the receiver rails but doable.I never make bubba comments or respond to threads complaining about them.When I was young you could buy surplus rifles in barber shops.Missouri was opening deer hunting statewide at the time and most of rifles used were cut down military rifles.

[Texas by God]

Those DP P14's were a steal. I sportered one into a .450 Marlin and it was a tad weighty but that was a good thing for factory level loads. I never sporterized a collector piece that I know of. I wouldn't do a milsurp now but if someone had already started it......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Drm50]

When I was a kid I whacked more Milsurps into Sporters than you can shake a stick at. I only did 03s and 98s.
They were cheap and a lot of people would buy one and start cutting it down and loose interest. These could be
bought for 1/2 of nothing. I liked Krags but never did one from scratch. Never wasted my time on Brits, Jap,
Carcano or Mosins. Always considered that as putting a top hat on a pig. Inexpensive stocks were available back
then 90% finished, the magazines were full of them. Later on up in late 60s I bought many really nice Sporters
that weren't basement jobs. They still are a good deal, many better that a new off the rack factory job. We never
thought these rifles would increase in value as much as they have. My dad was the town electrician and a WW2 Vet himself. He converted many war trophy rifles into floor lamps during the 50s. I wish I had one of those just
for sentimental purposes. It's guys like me that chopped them up that made original ones worth the price they
are getting.:violin:

[EDG]

Really it is no big deal.
The pristine rifles are not affordable by most of us any longer.
The bubbafied rifles bring a lot less money thanks to changing times.
I can still find a bubba special with a good bore cheap now and then.
I can't afford everything I see. Just like new cars I don't sweat it one bit. That some Marine chopped up a rare Arisaka does not bother me. Think about how many men died because of that war.

[mac60]

Some of the best engineering and manufacturing went into these military rifles. They may not seem like much today, but when you have that enfield, springfiend, nagant, mauser in hand you have something.

AMEN and AMEN!

[crankycalico]

AMEN and AMEN!

When they new they needed .35 inches of steel around the cartridge case they had the idea of ROUNDING up to .40. "that way we KNOW itll hold".

As a result a rifle like the HEX receiver Mosin Nagant rifle has been able to take excessive abuse. Example in the 1990s someone imported and sold FACTORY PROOFING AMMO as standard issue ammo. There are rifles that survived firing an entire spam can of Factory Proof Loads.

DO you think your Kimber, Savage, T/C, etc made in the modern era of "minimal dimensions" could do something like that?

[uscra112]

A curse brought to us by 3D CAD and Finite Element Analysis software.

In the 1950s one of the big name gunsmiths (Parker Ackley??) decided to find out how strong the commonly used military actions were. He blew up a number of them with big loads of pistol powders. I remember from the article that the two that did best were the 1917 Enfield (runner-up). The winner was the old high grade Arisaka. I don't think he ever tested the Mosin Nagant.

[GregLaROCHE]

There are still superior mil surplus for sale. Not all the same quality, even when they were first made. If you want a good shooter, first make sure the rifle was known to be of good quality and accuracy from the beginning. Then verify the current condition. Find the rifle you want and start looking for one. It could take a while to find one in your price range.

The internet is the most efficient and where you might find what you are looking for. Be prepared to pay around a thousand bucks today for one that was once in the back of The American Rifleman for $18. I believe these old rifles are often a better deal than a Remlin today.

The best deal is getting what you want in the condition you want it. Of course you will have to be content with iron sights, unless you want to buy an original sniper rifle, but then the price really goes up.

[Texas by God]

There is no way this 1898 Krag will ever be a milsurp again- that ship has sailed long ago. However, I will combine the parts shown into my very own Krag sporting rifle!
Projects! Gotta love them.
TbG

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190122/128046ea1bd98e53bc850617d2d9029f.jpg

[bob208]

if they are hacked up I walk away. I did want a good 06 with a scope. so rather then hacking up one of my collection. I paid $200 for a 03a3 that was drilled and tapped.

[swheeler]

if they are hacked up I walk away. I did want a good 06 with a scope. so rather then hacking up one of my collection. I paid $200 for a 03a3 that was drilled and tapped.

I hope the front sight base rear screw hole wasn't drilled into the upper receiver locking lug :-0! 90-95% of the Springfields I see that have been sporterized have been done so.

[bob208]

no it was done right.

[swheeler]

no it was done right.

Great. I've seen many pictures posted here of Springfields and a few mausers screwed up, figured were done with a BSquare drilling fixture, they didn't read the directions;-)

[3006guns]

A co worker mentioned that his Dad had brought back two "old rifles" after WWII, so I went to see them. They were both VZ24's, one unmolested with the original sling and one with a sporter stock, scope, and jeweled bolt with a custom bolt handle. On examining both guns, I discovered to my horror that when the sporter was built the bolts were switched! Each bolt was numbered to the other gun. Since the sporter bolt had been customized, I bought the original........and whined about it. But not too loud as he only asked $125.

[Texas by God]

You should have bought both of them. VZ24 is as good as it gets even dressed to hunt[emoji846]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[am44mag]

Unless the gun is a work of art (German guild rifle), or is dirt cheap, I will not touch a sporterized milsurp. The majority of the value in those guns is the history, and once that's gone, there's honestly not a whole lot left. You can pretty them up as much as you want, but that modern $300 budget bolt action is still going to shoot circles around it.

Now if they are cheap, I'd buy them as a starting point for a custom build.