RCBS .44mag sizing & decapping die issue

[EMR]

So I picked up this die from a member on here several months ago and finally got around to installing it today as I finally brought home my first .44mag firearm. I ran into an issue hopefully you guys can shed some light on.

It doesn’t actually size anything! It’s installed on a Lee 4 turret press and used with used range pickup brass so I know for a fact they all need sizing.

With the ram all the way up and shell holder in place, I screw in the die body just so it’s barely kissing the shell holder and tighten it down. Then I install the shank so the decapper protrudes below the bottom of the case by a few millimeters.

When I go to size the cases, there’s zero resistance. Boolits sized to .429 fall right inside the case.

When I pull the decapping shank and place a case over the shank, it goes on with a tiny bit of resistance.

Was I given the wrong sizing die body for .44 mag? I’ve been reloading for about 5 years with multiple calibers so I feel like I’m going crazy with this.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181228/c551c62872e35446e9399e3e637ee1db.jpg

[SNDBGGR1484]

A picture of the bottom might tell more. It looks like a decapping/belling die.RCBS made 3 die sets.The first die was for sizing,second for decapping/belling and third for seating/crimping.I hope this helps

[EMR]

A picture of the bottom might tell more. It looks like a decapping/belling die.RCBS made 3 die sets.The first die was for sizing,second for decapping/belling and third for seating/crimping.I hope this helps

Well, shoot. That makes perfect sense! If I lower the decapping shank, it puts a nice bell on that case mouth!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181228/eb8bedc10ad1b70065c60350c172f743.jpg

[lightman]

The die with the pin is the resizing die. It looks too big from the picture to size a 44 case. Is the carbide ring missing? The die should have the word sizer on it someplace.

[ReloaderFred]

That's the second die of an older 3 die set, which pushed out the primer and adds the bell to the case mouth. The first die in those sets was the steel sizing die, which didn't have a decapping stem, and they weren't threaded for one. The third die in those sets is the seating/crimping die.

In the newer die sets, the first die is the sizing/decapping die (usually a carbide die), while the second die imparts the bell to the case mouth, and the third die is the seating/decapping die.

You simply have the second die of an older set, which isn't designed to size the case, only to bell the case mouth and push out the old primer.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[EMR]

I believe that Fred and SNDBGGR1484 nailed it.

I’ll have to go and find an actual sizer die.

Thanks for everyone’s help!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just buy a Lee 4 die set and be done with it.

Randy

[6.5 CM]

What WR said. Loaded 1000s on my 4 die Lee set, still going strong.

[Taterhead]

If you contact RCBS, they will likely give you the parts you need to retrofit the sizing die with a de-cap assembly. They did that for me with a couple of 1970s era dies recently. Then you can remove the de-cap pin from the expander die. Better yet, retrofit the expander plug with this Cowboy assembly. A little more diameter than standard. Better for cast. Newer RCBS expander plugs are typically M style too.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/283428/rcbs-cowboy-expander-assembly-44-special

Here is a mid-70s die set retrofit with a modern de-cap assembly provided to me free of charge from RCBS. The die on the left is the sizer. The right is the expander.

https://i.postimg.cc/Wzm0X1v9/38-Dies.jpg

[EMR]

Just buy a Lee 4 die set and be done with it.

Randy


What WR said. Loaded 1000s on my 4 die Lee set, still going strong.

I already ordered a Lee sizing die from Midway. I already have all the other pieces so I should be good to go after this.


If you contact RCBS, they will likely give you the parts you need to retrofit the sizing die with a de-cap assembly. They did that for me with a couple of 1970s era dies recently. Then you can remove the de-cap pin from the expander die. Better yet, retrofit the expander plug with this Cowboy assembly. A little more diameter than standard. Better for cast. Newer RCBS expander plugs are typically M style too.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/283428/rcbs-cowboy-expander-assembly-44-special

Here is a mid-70s die set retrofit with a modern de-cap assembly provided to me free of charge from RCBS. The die on the left is the sizer. The right is the expander.

https://i.postimg.cc/Wzm0X1v9/38-Dies.jpg

Oh that’s interesting. I didn’t realize these were able to be converted. Unfortunately I already ordered a sizing die but I appreciate the info anyway!

[ReloaderFred]

Your die can't be converted to a sizing die, since the diameter is too big. It was designed to just decap and bell the case after sizing in the steel sizing die. The sizing dies I have like that don't have threads for mounting a decapping pin in them, but they're very early dies. Perhaps some of the later dies, prior to the transition to the sizing/decapping die, may have been threaded. I just don't have any that way.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[KenT7021]

Both dies in your photo appear to be different styles of expander dies from what I can see.All of the resizer dies I own of various makes are threaded for a decapping capability whether or not the particular die set is setup that way.Fred what make of dies do you have without threads?

[ReloaderFred]

My early RCBS steel sizing dies of the old design (Sizer only, decapping/belling and seating/crimping) don't have any threads for a decapping stem. The dies were made to size only, and then the second die was used, and then the third to complete the reloading cycle.

I've been reloading since 1963, so who knows where I got some of these die sets. Some are traded for, some gifted and even some purchased, but with loading 32 different calibers, it's sometimes hard to keep track. I've also got more than one set of dies in most of my calibers, since some dies do things better than another brand, so I mix and match until I get what I want.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Taterhead]

Fred,

There might have been a transition period. The 1976 revolver dies in my photo above (seat/crimp die not pictured) had a sizer that was threaded at the top, but otherwise empty. During that time, one could order a set with a decapper in the sizing die. It was an enhanced set.

RCBS sent a current production de-cap assembly for free since they recognize that de-capping in station 2 is incompatible with progressive presses. One reason I do a lot of business with RCBS.

A 1977 revolver set that I owned was also similarly configured as the one in the photo.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK, I guess somebody needs to splain this.

There are two types of Pistol Reloading Die Sets. There is the earlier 3 Die Sets, and there are the newer 4 Die Sets.

On the 3 Die Sets the First Die Sizes the Case. The Second Die De-primes and Bells the Case Mouth. The Third Die Seats and Crimps the Boolit.

On the 4 Die Sets The First Die Sizes and De-primes the Case. The Second Die Bells the Case Mouth and in many cases has a hole in it that allows Charging the Case at the same time. The Third Die Seats the boolit, and the Fourth Die Crimps it.

Being able to charge the case while belling the case mouth is common practice on progressive machines and a die set that allows this is a good thing. Also separating the seating crimping operations makes for better control of both operations.

The reason for separating the the Sizing and Belling operations is because on a strait wall case if you bell the case mouth when pushing it into the sizing die it will get straitened back out when you withdraw the case from the die.

That's all there is to it.

Randy

[Taterhead]

Randy,

Not sure if your reply was directed to me since it directly followed my post?

Your post is correct except that I know of no 3 die sets of recent vintage that de-cap in the expander die. I've owned RCBS and Redding dies from decades ago that did de-cap in the expander, but current production have the de-cap assembly in the sizing die. So paragraphs 2 & 3 in your post was true from days past, but is no longer the case. Also Dillon handgun die sets have no expander die.

The design change to handgun 3 die sets was for good reason. No progressive press that I know of has a place for spent primers to go in station 2.

[EDG]

I bought a set of RCBS .44 Mag dies in about 1970.
The top of the steel sizer was threaded but had no decapper.
The decapper was on the expander plug in die #2.
I remember this well because I prefer the Lyman M die for expanding.
I installed a Lyman M die screw and plug into the RCBS #2 die body.
Then I bought got a bushing and standard decapper assy and installed it in my steel sizer.

[Taterhead]

I bought a set of RCBS .44 Mag dies in about 1970.
The top of the steel sizer was threaded but had no decapper.
The decapper was on the expander plug in die #2.
I remember this well because I prefer the Lyman M die for expanding.
I installed a Lyman M die screw and plug into the RCBS #2 die body.
Then I bought got a bushing and standard decapper assy and installed it in my steel sizer.

I imagine that it looked similar to these dies?

https://i.postimg.cc/jSKsPBc6/20180219-144210.jpg

[AKgunnut1]

I already ordered a Lee sizing die from Midway. I already have all the other pieces so I should be good to go after this.


I need an RCBS expanding/de-capping die to replace one that just broke 2 days ago. PM me if you'd like to sell yours.

[EMR]

I need an RCBS expanding/de-capping die to replace one that just broke 2 days ago. PM me if you'd like to sell yours.

Pm sent!