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crankycalico
12-27-2018, 07:24 PM
A gunsmith should be able to do gun smithing things with minimal issues.

I emailed Remington about chambering a rifle in a not available at this time caliber, and about installing iron sights on it. They have a dwindling number of repair centers. Its not good days for Remington, looking at the current list I have personally been in 2 that no longer appear on that list.

Anyway they have 2 authorized service centers in Michigan, but they feel only 1 is capable of removing a rifle barrel, or rechambering, or even installing iron sights.

Is this become the new standard of the day?

TNsailorman
12-27-2018, 07:37 PM
We have more gun "mechanics" these days than gunsmiths. We have one local "gunsmith" who says he is not set up to drill or tap for bases and sights, he does not have the machinery to re-barrel, or to forge bolts. He was suppose to do an actions job on a Model 13 S&W and all he did was put a spring kit in it. It did lighten the trigger pull but it was not as smooth as before he put the kit in it. When I got it home and had a chance to try it out, I wanted my original trigger and springs back but he had already sold them. Needless to say, I won't be going back.

country gent
12-27-2018, 07:40 PM
There's a lot of parts changers out there and a few true gunsmiths. A true gunsmith Old world can take a straight barrel blank turn and thread the tenon ( accurately). contour it and install it. He can drill and tap for sights or scope. He can trouble shoot a rifle and fix it. Basically a true gunsmith can start with a bare action and build a rifle. The ARs Savages and some others have made the assembler more prevalent. Buy a drop in barrel pre chambered and contoured install it, buy the trigger you desire and install it the stock a very little fitting and its good. The craftsman that can take a blank chunk if wood, an action and barrel blank and turn it into a beautiful accurate rifle are fading fast. A friend took a old rifle in for repair ( this rifle is a custom built rifle down to north south screw slots) the "smith called to say it was done and screws were no longer north south he had thrown everything in a pan and just stuck them in as needed.

crankycalico
12-27-2018, 10:04 PM
I once found a ww2 lend lease smith and Wesson in 38 special that needed a new barrel. Couldn't find a gun smith who would put a 38 sw barrel on and redo the chambers. "frame wasn't big enough for a thicker cartridge".

Im wondering if the new warranty policies are a part of it. Ive seen a few that you can even let a gunsmith replace the trigger on it without voiding the warranty.

john.k
12-28-2018, 12:06 AM
Simple fact is the few trained gunsmiths left do high end shotgun repairs,dont advertise,and dont have the front door open to riff raff with old 22s,black rifles, and milsurp sporters.....the low end work is left to the hobbyist and lawnmower repairer who needs a bit of off season income.

toallmy
12-28-2018, 10:11 AM
I suspect most high end firearm builders , began their journey as ' riff-raff ' tinkering on cheap firearms .

crankycalico
12-28-2018, 11:25 AM
Well im seeing lots of "high end custom rifle builders" are doing nothing more then buying the same parts we get from brownells, midway, boyd, etc, and assembling the parts for us into a rifle.

Any of us can get a howa barreled action for 500, a boyds stock for 250$ or less, a scope for 200$ plus 50$ for mounts, and have a "custom builder" charge you 3000$

country gent
12-28-2018, 01:08 PM
A custom builder would buy the action, check it for concentricity square and sizes, possibly blue print and true it if needed. Turn an fit the tenon threads and shoulder. A good square receiver with proper tenon fit and threads shoulder the barrel spins in by hand goes thunk and will require a wrench or more force to break lose. He will chamber said barrel to 0.000- +.001 headspace with a chamber throat that looks like glass. It will be throated to what the customer has requested. He then fit the trigger and firing mechanism tined to a the desired trigger pull and short lock time. He then contours the barrel and crowns it as needed. Next is the stock work, this might be a semi inletted but more likely is a rough blank he has or has purchased stock is made to fit the customer in length if pull wrist size fore end size. More than likely its pillar bedded or a very precise inletting job. The stock is then finished possibly with many coats of oil hand rubbed in. Screws are north south aligned. all the metalwork is then polished and blued, or finished. There is a reason the built to order rifles ( CPA, C Sharps, DZ Arms, and others) have a 8-10 week wait time or longer. But you get exactly what you want, as to finish, wood grade, barrel length contour, trigger pill ( with in safe limits) and fit.

Another thing to keep in mind the true custom smith has spent years many years getting his reputation and skills. Then throw in the tooling, Lathes mills jigs fixtures and other things. Then the information base he maintains. Most have a small well used library in the shop. Your not only paying for the rifle but for all of the above in the price. The better the reputation, the more knowledgeable the craftsman the higher the cost.

EDG
12-29-2018, 12:22 AM
Today you can still get almost anything done by a skilled gunsmith. You just can't get a top skilled craftsman to work free or even cheap.

Factory guns built in large numbers are going to be relatively cheap because of the economies of scale that no gunsmith can match. But gun factories will never be as flexible or as broadly skilled as a good gunsmith. So if you do not like paying for good work you can do it yourself or take your chances on a guy who gets by on fast and nasty work.

contender1
12-29-2018, 09:54 AM
"Today you can still get almost anything done by a skilled gunsmith. You just can't get a top skilled craftsman to work free or even cheap.

Factory guns built in large numbers are going to be relatively cheap because of the economies of scale that no gunsmith can match. But gun factories will never be as flexible or as broadly skilled as a good gunsmith. So if you do not like paying for good work you can do it yourself or take your chances on a guy who gets by on fast and nasty work."

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

knifemaker3
01-01-2019, 09:39 PM
Sad fact is most people don't want to pay the price for the work. I have guys bring me guns in for work and when I tell them the price they look at me like I'm the devil. And these are guys getting paid $45+ an hour in different trades i.e car mechanics etc.
It is what it is....

crankycalico
01-01-2019, 09:56 PM
I finally got a reply from the only service center in Michigan that Remington feels can do a rebarrel.

They want me to bring a rifle in and SHOW them what I mean by doing a barrel change out.

rockrat
01-01-2019, 10:19 PM
++1 for knifemaker3.

I have seen what a real gunsmith can do. Only buy a barrel and end up with a finished rifle.

I am only a chip maker compared to them and wouldn't dare call myself a machinist.

John Taylor
01-02-2019, 09:58 AM
The word Smith usually refers to someone that works metal, not a parts changer. In the old days that would be with a forge and file. A gunsmith would be someone that can work with metal and wood and also be a mechanic. Anyone who calls himself a gunsmith should be able to contour, thread and chamber a barrel.

Bent Ramrod
01-02-2019, 10:40 AM
A really good gunsmith is a vastly underpaid cabinetmaker/tool-and-diemaker, enslaved to his trade by a fascination for guns and their workings, and attaining Perfection in general.

An acquaintance of mine used to do the metalwork for a custom rifle maker who auctioned his wares for tens of thousands of dollars per. After years of scuffling along at close to minimum wage, he finally escaped and went to work in the modeling shop at the local University so he could make a decent living.

I would surmise that parts replacement, cleaning, tuning, selling supplies on the side, etc, would be necessary to keep the pot boiling, even for somebody good, at least until he has established a practice. Said practice would need to filter out those who want skilled custom work for minimum-wage prices.

leebuilder
01-02-2019, 12:38 PM
Good question, I am a machinist have paper the says this after a four year apprenticeship and lots of time studying for the trades test and on the job training. With all that I only know so much. I do gunsmith work but he no paper saying I am a gunsmith. With that said I know the operations and work that goes into a well built rifle. I make parts, I heat treat and test I can also make springs.
So peaple call me a gunsmith.
I would say I have gunsmith skills.
I build rifles, with my gear I have limited contouring capabilities but can thread and ream chambers. I can make tooling for jobs ie I have made all my own barrel vice and action wrenches and the adapters for the rifles I work on the most.
I dont sell parts or accessories I fix guns.
Maybe we should ask what is a gunsmith customer?
There are very few customers that respect the "skill" and are willing to pay for that work.
I dont charge much I only do it to fund my hobby, shooting, casting and fixing guns.
I get so mad when I get a customer that only wants it for free or knows it all but wont do it because he want someone to blame.
I dont mind helping out a friend.
I do things on my own terms, I dont take on jobs I can't do.
I can smell stupid a mile away. The price is the price. I dont pick up or deliver. If you can find my house or dont want to take the trip to my shop it's not my fault. If your significant other wont let you pay for my skills it's not my problem as are the missing screws you lost or broke.
If you can't shoot it's not my fault if your barrel is trashed you need a new barrel or a new hobby.
I am surly at times, cheerful a lot. I love to learn, I will be a student of the rifle till I die or the liberals take them away. I served I know my gun, I know what its and my limitations are. I can shoot, not the best but I can hold my own and I'm the guy you want on your side if need be. I take pride in putting a smile on my customers face.
If you need work, your buddy's or the interwebs opinion dont fly with me, your words will fall on deaf ears, because where the meat meets the metal is in my shop not yours.
I like barter but if it dont intrest me not my fault.

I know I said alot, ranting dont help. Fixing guns is fun!!! Dealing with some peaple isnt.
Be well

EDG
01-02-2019, 01:52 PM
Like a CEO once told me. The technical stuff is interesting and is often even fun and easy. Your real problems always wear pants.

EDG
01-02-2019, 02:09 PM
Like a CEO once told me. The technical stuff is interesting and is often even fun and easy. Your real problems always wear pants.

I used to post at Accurate Reloading. You can check out the gunsmithing and custom rifle forums there for lots of photos.
There is one very good smith named Jim Kobe I believe.
Another is Duane Wiebe. Wiebe might be called a gun maker since he can build a stock from a stick of wood. Anyway for anyone curious just search google for Duane Wiebe and pick images. You will see rifles that cost as much as a new car.
There are maybe 6 or 8 guys with his skill in the country.
There are probably several hundred more that are very good specialists. So far as I know none work for any manufacturer.
A specialist might only do top quality metal work or bench rest rebarreling only. Another might do only stocks. Some of the top checkering pros are women. Many spectacular rifles are built using these highly skilled specialists. The rifle may have to be shi]ed to 4 or 5 states to complete all the work.

Manufacturers usually specialize in high volume work for the consumer market. They do not do general repairs or much custom work other than building a deluxe version of their standard catalog items.
Ruger will not even put a different barrel on a rifle if it changes the original caliber. If you buy a .308 it has to stay a .308. Ruger will not put a .243 barrel on it.

Love Life
01-02-2019, 03:36 PM
Well im seeing lots of "high end custom rifle builders" are doing nothing more then buying the same parts we get from brownells, midway, boyd, etc, and assembling the parts for us into a rifle.

Any of us can get a howa barreled action for 500, a boyds stock for 250$ or less, a scope for 200$ plus 50$ for mounts, and have a "custom builder" charge you 3000$

Anybody who would pay $3,000 for that combo deserves to be parted from their money.

RED BEAR
01-02-2019, 03:48 PM
to my way of thinking a gun smith should be able to make the entire gun i will give them a break on rifleing a barrel but i feel that they should be capable of making any part in a gun. we have one local i asked if what they charged for a barrel swap and was told they don't do that . asked about changing springs in my charter arms and was told only if i could find the kit. and this guy is advertised as a expert gunsmith. nice guy but no gunsmith.

Nobade
01-02-2019, 04:00 PM
This thread hits close to home because this is my world. I build custom bolt guns. And it is a very strange place to be, when you look at the skills required compared to what things cost. But years ago we were everything to everybody. You bring in a gun project, we'd take it on. I can repair it, and make parts for pretty much anything. Developed a great reputation. But you know what? The shop was going broke and would have closed years ago if we hadn't made the decision to specialize. So we look at it and decide what to do that will make money. I can blueprint a Remington 700, fit a barrel to it, install a brake, pillar bed it in a day. Tomorrow I break it out of the bedding, clean that up, Cerakote it, assemble everything, and I have made $1000 in labor for a little less than two days. And people are lining up for these rifles, with the average wait time being nine months. Or I could carve a nice stock from a blank, cut out a barrel with an integral quarter rib sight and barrel band. Build a super nice rifle somebody would be proud to own. By the time it's done I might have 300 hours labor in it, that I could bill at maybe $3000. Or I could spend a day making a leaf spring for your old shotgun, and charge you $50. Either way I go broke fast. It's not that this stuff isn't possible to do, it's just that it would be stupid to do it.
My big love is nice muzzleloader rifles in the English style. My heros are Steve Zinn and Colin Stolzer, somehow those guys can build rifles like that and still survive, but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. So I'll be content to make what I enjoy in my free time and give the customers what they want and are willing to pay for in order to keep the rent paid and the lights on.

toallmy
01-02-2019, 04:06 PM
I consider a good parts changer capable of doing most of the gun work the general public would ever need - should be appreciated also , they seem to be in short supply and underappreciated .

huntnman
01-02-2019, 05:38 PM
I have a Turk Mauser that has been to two smiths. One charged IIRC $40 said was good to shoot, I asked about head space, he looked at me like I had two heads, despite that was what I had asked for, when I dropped it off. He told me I ran a brand new bore scope, took pictures. The second charged me nothing, said he could not get proper screws for stock. Told me "You have an expensive wall hanger". Still looking for a trust worthy smith.

John Taylor
01-02-2019, 09:24 PM
Things started off as a hobby. I got the bug to rifle a barrel and made a few muzzle loaders with a home made hand pulled cut rifle. Then went though several different jobs and found myself without a job. Got the bug to build a better rifling machine and was playing with it when local logger ask if I could rebore his T/C 50 out to 54. I took it on just to get some more experience. Found out the rifle shot very good so I put an add in gun list that I would work on barrels. Got a call from a guy wanting to know if I could do an integral sight ramp and I said I would give it a try. He flooded me with work and I have been at it for over 20 years now. I quit advertising about 14 years ago. I like working on the old stuff and very seldom see an AR. I get more relines than anything ells and most of the old guns need some parts. Todays fun project was making a mag tube hanger for an old Colt lever action rifle. The barrel has a dovetail at the end that is cut with a curve. Luckily I had another one in the shop that I could copy.This Colt came in with the barrel cut in half so it got a piece welded on and machined octagon to match, then bored for a liner. Neat thing about it is the other Colt needed a part also so now I can use it as a guide to make another part. This is the first gun I have ever seen that has a dog leg in the middle of the firing pin to clear the locking lug. After years of working as a mechanic, machinist and welder I now get to work on things much lighter than logging equipment. I'm able to keep up with the bills but I'm not getting rich. Best part is I enjoy what I'm doing. Sold the bluing tanks because it just don't pay unless that's all you do. I can do wood but I can't make enough so I trade with a stock maker, he always has machine work that needs to be done.

M-Tecs
01-02-2019, 11:44 PM
We have never had as many option for true custom builders as we have today. That is in large part why the factories offer so little in the way of custom builds. A hundred years ago all the manufactures would build you most anything you wanted. Today their style of low labor manufacturing requires high volume to be profitable.

Good example is the Remington 700 action. On sale your can purchase them for around $350.00. If you step up to a semi-custom high tolerance copy of a 700 you are looking at around $1,000.00. If you want a true one of built one at a time you are now in the $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 range.

Anything you want is readily available if you are willing to pay. Most people want and expect high end custom tolerances at Remington prices.

crankycalico
01-03-2019, 04:16 AM
shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

M-Tecs
01-03-2019, 05:05 AM
shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

Shilen doesn't list 30-30 as available chamberings. They do list the 7 x 57. Even if they don't lots of other barrel makers or gunsmith that do chambering will.

John Taylor
01-03-2019, 10:43 AM
shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

30-30 on a model 70 is fun, have done more than a few. The rear of the barrel is quite a bit different from other model 70s. The 22 Hornet is another one on the model 70 that take a little effort to make feed right.

HangFireW8
01-03-2019, 11:39 AM
A gunsmith should be able to do gun smithing things with minimal issues.

I emailed Remington about chambering a rifle in a not available at this time caliber, and about installing iron sights on it. They have a dwindling number of repair centers. Its not good days for Remington, looking at the current list I have personally been in 2 that no longer appear on that list.

Anyway they have 2 authorized service centers in Michigan, but they feel only 1 is capable of removing a rifle barrel, or rechambering, or even installing iron sights.

Is this become the new standard of the day?

Back in the 90's I had a newish, second-hand Remington700 with a kink in the rifling about 6" from the muzzle. I called Remington and they wouldn't touch it, but they sent me the list of authorized repair centers. I called each of them within 100 miles and they either didn't rebarrel or were out of business. Later at the range a friend recommended a not so local gunsmith, who then did excellent work for me for the next decade. He was not on Remington's authorized list.

So to answer your question, there is nothing new about this situation. New gunshops eagerly get on Remington's authorized list, but their skills are limited to parts replacement. Good gunsmiths are found elsewhere. That has not changed.

crankycalico
01-04-2019, 02:04 AM
The authorized service center doesn't even UNDERSTAND the concept of putting a new barrel on...

uscra112
01-04-2019, 02:52 AM
I was about to offer up that a gunsmith ought to be able to make, harden and temper a spring, and then I see this about "gunsmiths" that can't (or won't) even install and chamber a new barrel! I've done both in my hobby shop, but I certainly haven't considered myself a real gunsmith. Until now.

Nobade
01-04-2019, 10:55 AM
I was about to offer up that a gunsmith ought to be able to make, harden and temper a spring, and then I see this about "gunsmiths" that can't (or won't) even install and chamber a new barrel! I've done both in my hobby shop, but I certainly haven't considered myself a real gunsmith. Until now.After seeing some of what you've done over the years I'd say you're more skilled than 95 percent of the people who call themselves gunsmiths.

John 242
01-04-2019, 11:34 AM
The authorized service center doesn't even UNDERSTAND the concept of putting a new barrel on...

Service centers are lower level repair shops. They handle factor repair work and they are usually NOT CUSTOM GUN SHOPS. They are basically factory armorers.

I personally know at least two GUNSMITHS at the Remington Custom Shop in Sturgis, SD and they know how to install/chamber a barrel, thread a barrel, blueprint a receiver, etc, etc. I don't know what services they offer and whether or not they will work on your gun, but they are certainly capable of it. Call the custom shop at (605) 347-4686 and find out.

https://www.remington.com/custom-shop

John 242
01-04-2019, 12:42 PM
shilen wont do a barrel in 30-30 or 7x57 for a model 70 or 700

Shilen will sell you a pre-threaded, pre-contoured, short chambered barrel in 7x57 for a Remington 700 or Post 64 Model 70. Nearly any fairly competent gunsmith could finish headspace the barrel for you, or you can do it yourself.

Shilen will sell you a pre-contoured .308 groove diameter barrel in virtually any twist rate you'd like. It'll need to be threaded and chambered, but that isn't rocket science and most gunsmiths with a lathe can handle threading and chambering a barrel.
The headache would be in fixing whatever feeding problems the gun would have. What about extraction? What about bolt face diameter? What about .... all the other stuff I'm not considering? Having never done one, I would hesitate to take on this job. I guess that makes me "not a real gunsmith" in the eyes of many of you pros on here, but I don't have time to screw around with projects that occupy my time with RESEARCH and trial and error feed work, unless I can charge for it. But even then, there's plenty of other more profitable jobs that I am fully capable of doing and getting done, so why bother?

(Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that the 7x57 is easy peasy, but the .30-30 job might take some expertise and that kind of job isn't run of the mill or necessarily cheap.)

John 242
01-04-2019, 01:23 PM
After seeing some of what you've done over the years I'd say you're more skilled than 95 percent of the people who call themselves gunsmiths.

You could go to any other trade oriented forum and substitute the word "gunsmiths" for welder, plumber, electrician, knife maker or mechanic and you're statement would remain true of many of the hobbyists.

Nobade
01-04-2019, 02:55 PM
Quite true.

crankycalico
01-05-2019, 02:24 AM
Service centers are lower level repair shops. They handle factor repair work and they are usually NOT CUSTOM GUN SHOPS. They are basically factory armorers.

I personally know at least two GUNSMITHS at the Remington Custom Shop in Sturgis, SD and they know how to install/chamber a barrel, thread a barrel, blueprint a receiver, etc, etc. I don't know what services they offer and whether or not they will work on your gun, but they are certainly capable of it. Call the custom shop at (605) 347-4686 and find out.

https://www.remington.com/custom-shop

They only seem to do the offerings shown on the website, and most of which I wasn't interested in.

koger
01-05-2019, 11:02 PM
NoBade you are right on target about the $$ side of gunsmithing. I have been at it professionally, full time and part time last few years, for over 35 years. I have built over 100 custom rifles, most Mauser sporters and Savages, which included truing the actions, rebarreling, bending bolts, drilling and tapping for scopes/sights, bedding into the stock the customer chose, and going thru the trigger or installing an aftermarket one. I have blued and parkerized hundreds of firearms, and lost count of how many rifles I have glass bedded/trigger jobs on. I ran a successful shop for several years part time, then went full time. I worked 6 days a week, 12-14 hours a often, never without work. The services I mentioned above also included general gunsmithing, accurizing ML's, installing sight, scopes, bore sighting and zeroing. The problem with these neck of the woods, folks don't want to pay normal wages for quality work, so I had the opportunity to sell the gunshop/archery part of the business, to a young man who had inherited a goodly sum of money, and he has been pretty successful, with slow times and boom times. I only do limited work now, but seem to stay covered up by my best old customers who always paid the prices quoted, and never grumble. I did not venture into the endless shotgun work to be done, because the demand here was so limited, the reaming for chokes, threading the barrels, sleeves etc. There was just some stuff I did not want to do, or it was not commercially feasible, and I had a few guys ask me what kind of a gunsmith are you if you don't do------------- service? My answer was a very busy one, that was not starving to death.

John Taylor
01-08-2019, 12:21 AM
A story from a fellow gunsmith when he was first starting out. He was learning form an old gunsmith and was in his shop when a young man came in with a rifle. The young man said he needed his rifle by the end of the week because he was going hunting on the weekend. The old gunsmith was looking over the rifle and the young man mentioned again that he needed the rifle before the weekend. This went on for a while with the young man saying several times that he needed the rifle before the weekend. The old gunsmith finally said " you better take it with you now to insure you have it before the weekend".

uscra112
01-08-2019, 12:25 AM
That's a milder version of the famous Harry Pope story.

RED BEAR
01-08-2019, 12:02 PM
i just couldn't believe my local gunsmith couldn't do a barrel swap.if i need a parts changer i do it myself. you would be surprised at just what can be made by hand. the first 6 years of my machinist career i mainly made parts by hand they found out i had a nack for it so i got most all the hand work. and now i am retired and no longer have access to machinery it has come in handy keeping my old guns working.

uscra112
01-08-2019, 12:40 PM
It wasn't THAT long ago that there were no milling machines. You forged a part to as near net shape as you could, and then used files.

In the last couple of years I've made Stevens and Ballards extractors with nothing but a hacksaw and files. OK, and a bench vise. Harry Pope is said to have been an absolute master in the use of files.

I'm told that in England apprentices were not advanced past filing for a year. Final test was....you were given a small block of steel, and had to file it to a perfect cube of some given dimension.

JeepHammer
01-12-2019, 01:41 PM
This is a disposable society, we throw away people, firearms are no different.

I have three tables at the shop, the 'Rush Order, increased price', the 'Paying Full Price' & the 'Discount', but when I get around to it'.

I have to tell people all the time it will take 30 to 60 days, by the time you get done screwing around with parts suppliers (about 1/3 of the time it's no joy) and then making what ever part they need it's a PITA...

Then my 'Competition', guys installing sights that don't have proper taps, using hand drill and don't even have a tapping table...
I'm supposed to fix what they screwed up, and do it IMMEDIATELY, and do it for free, because the customer is POed at the first guy!

Here is a hint, when the 'Gunsmith' drills all the way through the barrel and has a screw sticking into the chamber, there isn't much I can do for you! :(
It won't chamber a round, and you shouldn't ever try to chamber a round since the chamber is compromised...
That's not what they want to hear, and I get called every name in the book.

I refitted loose barrels on an old double shotgun, made a fore end spring from scratch, tightened up the barrel on the pivot pin, (great old double or I would have told the guy to scrap it),
And the customer blew a fuse when I asked $200 for two solid days of work on his family heirloom... I was seriously throwing him a break since he was saving a great old double.
He says the guy 'Down the street' only wanted $35 (that guy pushes boards through a saw for his day job).

Another one was the guy that wanted a 20 MOA mount on his bolt rifle action, but the holes in the receiver were too small for the screws that came with the mount...
So he takes it to the 'Gunsmith' which breaks a tap off in the hole, and captures the BOLT!
The idiot never took the bolt out and bottomed the tap against the bolt, then apparently tried to DRILL A TAP OUT carving up the receiver.

I get a rifle that's gouged up, the bolt is pinned in the receiver with a hardened tap end, and the guy wants it back, ready to run that afternoon!

I felt like telling him to shove it up the butt of the guy that screwed it up,
But what I did was park his butt on a stool, made him WATCH me set up for EDM and burn out the tap,
Then PROPERLY set the receiver up on vertical axis and re-drill the hole, drill/tap the rest of the holes, fit the screws so they didn't pin or gouge the bolt, etc.
I also explained what each piece of equipment cost, how much it takes to operate the shop on a daily basis...
He was mad as a hornet at first, but when it came time to pay up, no arguments.
He's been back a few times and he's always polite (brings friends/work from time to time)...

------

I like it when the old timers sit around and BS, have coffee, etc.
I catch **** about them 'Loitering', but they have several lifetimes of experience and have great ideas & stories.
One of them had 40 years of experience in a fine furniture factory and can fix/repair/refinish ANY stock damage, an absloute master at his craft, and he can find wood to match ANY stock that comes through the door, knows every logger & saw mill in 500 miles...
I suck at stocks/wood, so he's a real treasure, and he knows M1 Garands like no one I've ever met.

Another guy was a factory 'Maintinance' man for about a half century, and can forge/heat treat ANY spring.
I've learned more about forging & heat treating on the fly from him that any class I ever took.
Makes the BEST hand forged knives you have ever seen...

------

The problem I see is there isn't an apprentice program anymore, people do 'Schools', some over the internet or by mail, and that's just NOT the hands on experience they need...
With an apprentice the journeyman will show/tell the apprentice about 40 different issues about like the one they are working on, cover all the vairables, safety procedures, and you can't get the smell, feel the heat, know what the resistance is over the internet or from a book...

And let's not forget the 'YouTube' generation, learning from someone that's got no education and is screwing up in the first place! When the conversation starts with 'I saw this guy on YouTube do this...' I'm usually out right there... It's not like someone with a proper education & 30 years experience is going to kill his business by posting his secrets on YouTube (even if he knew how, they won't exactly be the social media generation!).

--------

I'm SURE I'm missing out on easy money, but my rule is NO PLASTIC GUNS.
When some neck beard, man bun, YouTube 'Operator' brings in the 'Latest-Greatest' fad gun and wants something he saw on YouTube or read about in some 'Tactical' magazine, I just smile and say 'No'.

Wearing 'Tacti-Cool' cloths and buying the 'Latest' plastic gun doesn't make you an 'Operator' (16 years in the Marines, I know a dangerous man when I see one),
And I already know when the latest gadget or modification doesn't make him a better shooter, he's going to throw a tantrum and blame me for his inability to hit anything...

The second reason is, if the factory couldn't design a firearm that cycles or hits anything, what makes you believe I can magically wave a torque wrench over it and it never fails or misses again?
So much of the plastic **** won't function, and with the super short barrels/sight radius and sloppy slides/barrel lockup it's never going to be accurate, nothing I can do about that...
You paid $400 for melted Legos, face facts! ;)

OK, rant over...
Resume normal operations!

indian joe
01-14-2019, 09:23 AM
I have been thinking about this question for a while - what did the old people say ? cant be all things to all people - (somethin like that anyway) -we are livin in the era of the specialist (some here are old enough to have read "The Specialist" by Chick Sale) -------anyway
We have a good gunsmith in our local town - if you want a tackhole bolt gun setup he is the dude to do it - Shoots em good too - fly shoot - 1000yard centrefire - however I would not take my lever gun to him - its not his area of expertise and I am kinda handy working lever guns myself anyway - part of the reason its not his area of expertise is that most of the blokes that shoot lever guns round here would not pay a decent rate for his level of work - and keeping a shop open means you go for the work that pays - that has been talked about already - so we have the specialist - and then a bunch of backyarders filling in the gaps ,

John Taylor
01-16-2019, 01:40 PM
I think JeepHammer has some good points. Just got a revolver in yesterday with 6 bullets stuck in the barrel. I have had a Colt Bisley with 7 and a S&W with 10 but the most has been a Ruger 44 carbine with 16or17, hard to count with them all jammed up. There would have been more but the gas port clogged and the action would not cycle again. I have had rifles come in with the scope base holes not lined up. Get to plug the hole and re-drill. A while back I installed a brake on a 300 Win Mag and the owner used one of those laser sighters but forgot to remove it, brake was shredded and the last two inches of the barrel was in bad shape. And he was planning on going hunting the next day. Maybe gunsmith should get together and write a book. Might be a few people that would buy every copy.

egg250
01-20-2019, 10:48 AM
I'm enjoying this thread, just hope it doesn't turn into a gripefest about the worst gunsmith.

Anyway, I'm certainly not a master gunsmith. I rank myself somewhere in the journeyman area. I prefer to buy ready made parts to fit and install because that actually saves my customers money. I have made parts that were unavailable but that is much more expensive. Springs are fairly easy to make, it's just trial and error to get those odd shaped springs just right. Good thing spring wire is cheap, I use piano wire. Small parts such as revolver hands, magazine releases, hammers, etc are also easy to make. It just takes time and is not economical, time or money, unless those parts are not available.

I believe most gunsmiths are more concerned about liability issues than anything else. I will not let an unsafe gun leave my shop in functional condition. A customer had an old Springfield break action shotgun. It was his grandfather's, the customer was up in years as well, so this thing was old. The stock had been destroyed in a fire and he wanted it restocked. I had to tell him the bad news, I can do the work but this gun is a wall hanger. Fires that burn the stock (this one was completely burned off) destroy the heat treat in the receiver. I was not willing to attempt a heat treat and temper because of the liability if it should fail one day. Then again, there are those others that only swap parts out, unwilling/unable to properly repair/fit the existing parts.

Not sure where I was going, but I am enjoying this thread.

toallmy
01-20-2019, 11:41 AM
I generally try to fix my own firearm problems if at all possible ' parts changing ', but I live in a very rural area . The closest thing to a good gun smith locally is a retired machinist that lives near me . We shoot together and discuss loading quite often over a cup of coffee .

Texas by God
01-21-2019, 10:45 PM
I'm not a gunsmith but I can do some gunsmith things.

Hootmix
01-29-2019, 03:52 PM
As I have mentioned before ,, I made custom " cowboy " boots and repaired saddles. "I-did-not -do it - for the money " ,, YES I got paid for my work,, but it was never about the money!!!! Gunsmith's get paid for their " KNOWLEDGE " of how to " FIX " a problem,, it's done from the heart ,, I trying to learn how to fix my own guns,( levers & SA pistols ),, by listening and reading from the " been there done that " SMITH"S .

My 2 cents,, coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

samari46
01-30-2019, 01:19 AM
I have know 3 gunsmiths that were worthy of the name. one could do a stock from a blank or pre fit, thread and chamber any barrel and his passion was single shots. He was that good. the second does all rifle and pistol work and specializes in building 50BMG rifles. The third loved lever actions, once built a 458x2" on a 94 winchester as proof of concept. He basically set up Wolfgang Droge's assembly line with all the various machines to make sharps rifles. One is retired, one has gone to the great range in the sky and the third is as busy as ever. That is the one who corrected some factory problems on a marlin 22 I own. That is gunsmithing. Frank

John Taylor
01-30-2019, 01:12 PM
Many years ago I worked with a gunsmith that designed and built 50 BMG single shot rifles. I did some of the machine work in my shop and he did the finish work.

Tripplebeards
01-30-2019, 01:51 PM
This is a disposable society, we throw away people, firearms are no different.

I have three tables at the shop, the 'Rush Order, increased price', the 'Paying Full Price' & the 'Discount', but when I get around to it'.

I have to tell people all the time it will take 30 to 60 days, by the time you get done screwing around with parts suppliers (about 1/3 of the time it's no joy) and then making what ever part they need it's a PITA...

Then my 'Competition', guys installing sights that don't have proper taps, using hand drill and don't even have a tapping table...
I'm supposed to fix what they screwed up, and do it IMMEDIATELY, and do it for free, because the customer is POed at the first guy!

Here is a hint, when the 'Gunsmith' drills all the way through the barrel and has a screw sticking into the chamber, there isn't much I can do for you! :(
It won't chamber a round, and you shouldn't ever try to chamber a round since the chamber is compromised...
That's not what they want to hear, and I get called every name in the book.

I refitted loose barrels on an old double shotgun, made a fore end spring from scratch, tightened up the barrel on the pivot pin, (great old double or I would have told the guy to scrap it),
And the customer blew a fuse when I asked $200 for two solid days of work on his family heirloom... I was seriously throwing him a break since he was saving a great old double.
He says the guy 'Down the street' only wanted $35 (that guy pushes boards through a saw for his day job).

Another one was the guy that wanted a 20 MOA mount on his bolt rifle action, but the holes in the receiver were too small for the screws that came with the mount...
So he takes it to the 'Gunsmith' which breaks a tap off in the hole, and captures the BOLT!
The idiot never took the bolt out and bottomed the tap against the bolt, then apparently tried to DRILL A TAP OUT carving up the receiver.

I get a rifle that's gouged up, the bolt is pinned in the receiver with a hardened tap end, and the guy wants it back, ready to run that afternoon!

I felt like telling him to shove it up the butt of the guy that screwed it up,
But what I did was park his butt on a stool, made him WATCH me set up for EDM and burn out the tap,
Then PROPERLY set the receiver up on vertical axis and re-drill the hole, drill/tap the rest of the holes, fit the screws so they didn't pin or gouge the bolt, etc.
I also explained what each piece of equipment cost, how much it takes to operate the shop on a daily basis...
He was mad as a hornet at first, but when it came time to pay up, no arguments.
He's been back a few times and he's always polite (brings friends/work from time to time)...

------

I like it when the old timers sit around and BS, have coffee, etc.
I catch **** about them 'Loitering', but they have several lifetimes of experience and have great ideas & stories.
One of them had 40 years of experience in a fine furniture factory and can fix/repair/refinish ANY stock damage, an absloute master at his craft, and he can find wood to match ANY stock that comes through the door, knows every logger & saw mill in 500 miles...
I suck at stocks/wood, so he's a real treasure, and he knows M1 Garands like no one I've ever met.

Another guy was a factory 'Maintinance' man for about a half century, and can forge/heat treat ANY spring.
I've learned more about forging & heat treating on the fly from him that any class I ever took.
Makes the BEST hand forged knives you have ever seen...

------

The problem I see is there isn't an apprentice program anymore, people do 'Schools', some over the internet or by mail, and that's just NOT the hands on experience they need...
With an apprentice the journeyman will show/tell the apprentice about 40 different issues about like the one they are working on, cover all the vairables, safety procedures, and you can't get the smell, feel the heat, know what the resistance is over the internet or from a book...

And let's not forget the 'YouTube' generation, learning from someone that's got no education and is screwing up in the first place! When the conversation starts with 'I saw this guy on YouTube do this...' I'm usually out right there... It's not like someone with a proper education & 30 years experience is going to kill his business by posting his secrets on YouTube (even if he knew how, they won't exactly be the social media generation!).

--------

I'm SURE I'm missing out on easy money, but my rule is NO PLASTIC GUNS.
When some neck beard, man bun, YouTube 'Operator' brings in the 'Latest-Greatest' fad gun and wants something he saw on YouTube or read about in some 'Tactical' magazine, I just smile and say 'No'.

Wearing 'Tacti-Cool' cloths and buying the 'Latest' plastic gun doesn't make you an 'Operator' (16 years in the Marines, I know a dangerous man when I see one),
And I already know when the latest gadget or modification doesn't make him a better shooter, he's going to throw a tantrum and blame me for his inability to hit anything...

The second reason is, if the factory couldn't design a firearm that cycles or hits anything, what makes you believe I can magically wave a torque wrench over it and it never fails or misses again?
So much of the plastic **** won't function, and with the super short barrels/sight radius and sloppy slides/barrel lockup it's never going to be accurate, nothing I can do about that...
You paid $400 for melted Legos, face facts! ;)

OK, rant over...
Resume normal operations!

Lol, you sound just like my buddy who has his own shop. Vents to me every day on how people like myself do it the wrong way and he has to fix it...on the spot.:violin: so I can tell he feels your pain and your not the only one .lol

I think he gets more postal than a postal worker at times. Most of those people want to sit there and talk to him the whole day and BS with him how they are the greatest shot in the world or how they shot a 300" buck as well and then they wonder why it didn't get done. He knows it's part of the job and building customer relations and report but some days he just can only listen to so much as anyone else would. It's almost like a coffe shop. He has regulars who come in just about every day and talk his ear off non stop all day long. He got smart, hooked up an answering machine and decided to only answer the phone three days a week...every other day and locks his door so he can get his promised work completed without interruptions.

country gent
01-30-2019, 02:01 PM
The phone calls can be a big problem when your trying to do a touchy or intricate job and set up. It breaks concentration and pulls you away from it. Coming back it takes awhile to get back to where you were and to get the "momentum" going again.

samari46
01-31-2019, 12:05 AM
Talk about momentum at 72 I need all the momentum I can muster just to get out of bed in the morning. All kidding aside when I'm messing around on my lathe, don't even have the radio on in the garage. Except for the lights and depending on how hot it is (3' shop fan) no one would know I'm there. Frank

DougGuy
01-31-2019, 01:05 AM
John Taylor "gets" it. He "tailored" (I know, LOL) his scope of work to take on jobs that are practical and profitable, and lets basic economics dictate which ones to take in and which ones will be a loss of time compared to jobs that generate billable hours.

I have done the same, I started doing cylinder and barrel throating, buying tooling strictly for this work, eventually moving up to a Sunnen Precision Automotive Hone to do cylinder throats with, again, specialized to pistol caliber bore sizes, about useless for most other things but it does cylnder throats like factory finish, sometimes better than factory finish.

To this end I have not pursued 'smithing work beyond what I offer in my signature and a few other services I offer in quotes given to customers. I used to do a lot more, I built 1911s, did metal checkering good enough for the cover of any of the rags, it paid okay but it usually takes more time than you can bill for so it's a loss many times. So I quit doing a lot of the work, and concentrate on cylinder and barrel throats where fitment is critical and I feel I do better quality work when there aren't other jobs on the bench to distract my thoughts. I don't give my phone number out b/c I don't like to get calls that just pull my attention away from everything I am doing, and most of the correspondence can be done thoroughly and efficiently through txt and email on forums and facebook. This is just me prioritizing work to suit the investment of time and tooling in the best way. Not out to get rich, this gives me something to do and it solves a critical issue for handloaders so they can improve their handloading, shooting and hunting experiences, and in some cases their safety.

I don't really consider myself a gunsmith, not in the walk in brick and mortar store where the gunsmith's room is crammed full of machine shop tooling and racks and racks of guns to be worked on. I would consider myself a gunsmith specializing in handgun cylinders and barrels.

We still afaik cannot do caliber conversions, or anything that would "enhance, or accurize" the gun beyond the factory configuration, or this is "manufacturing" and not gunsmithing according to the EO that Obozo issued 7-22-2016, and subject to a $2200.00/yr "fee" which was made retroactive so BATFE can go after you for something you did earlier that they deem is "manufacturing." Until Trump rescinds this EO, I can't do this work and it is simple gunsmithing, always has been, it's not "manufacturing" at all.

John Taylor
01-31-2019, 09:28 AM
My "specialty" if that's what it's called is making old guns shoot again.I try to stay away from modern guns but a local shop brings in some of the stuff they can't handle. It's fun for me to work on pieces of history. Several years back I worked on a Japanese match lock that was probably 300 years old. Most of the guns I work on were designed in the late 1800s. Quit a few come in for liners to make them shoot again. Some are missing parts or have broken parts and I get to figure out how to make new parts. Two this last month came in with the barrels cut off so I get to add length to make them back to the length they were made in originally. This all started as a hobby and I found out I could make a living at it about 20 years ago when a partnership at a machine and welding shop fell apart.

gunarea
01-31-2019, 10:03 AM
My Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering degree was less effort and money than my Certification course and support system as a "Certified Gunsmith". Although to many, filing and sawing may seem as humorous rhetoric, the courses were also separated by materials being addressed. Never did any advertising. It was frightening how fast my work load became overwhelming. With few options to save myself, specialization was necessary to cut down work load. Next was to eliminate gun dealers from farming work to me. At the time, my father was a master tool and die maker and I quickly overloaded him as well. We will forego all the chest pounding about what I can and have done. With no embarrassment, I admit to having and utilizing books with pictures. Later to using both video cassettes as well as DVDs for resource of information too great to commit to memory. Keeping up with every new firearm produced along with the evolution of the industry makes it a constant challenge to learn and retain. In those years of trying to quit gunsmithing, I taught many procedures and operations to others. It was only after practically giving nearly all my tools and equipment away, could I truthfully turn work down because I literally was unable to preform the work. Gunsmith as a title, used to mean something. Seems that self designation is now accepted as accreditation. While my full retirement and subsequent transfer of held FFLs has cut down on requested services, I honestly believe someone will visit my grave with cash in hand. I do and do not miss it.

Roy

Tripplebeards
01-31-2019, 10:59 AM
It's the big jobs that kill them just like in the auto service industry. A billable 2 hour brake job or fluid flushes that takes 35 minutes keeps the lights on but rebuilding a transmission or engine that has a billable 12 to 14 hours and has been sitting on the hoist for days waiting for special order, factory sourced, broken rusty parts that rounded off or broke during disassembly when you could be shuffling little profitable jobs though kills you and pees off the impatient customer. Learned to work matter than harder over the years. Some jobs get politely passed on and referred somewhere else. I can normally read into the situation in the first 30 seconds when the customer is explaining what's going on and smell a problem comming a mile away before it happens...and it's normally going to come from the customer and not the issue at hand. Your better off passing the on the big stuff and stick to the small, profitable, quick, in and out things things as long as the pocketbook permits. That days you get greedy and take in the big job a lot of time it comes back to bite you. Anything that needs to get sent out will bite you in the butt. Can't predict when it will get get done or when or if the postal service will bring it back.

marlinman93
01-31-2019, 11:41 AM
Amazing. I've looked at some of the states people who've posted on this thread are located in, and wonder why they can't find a competent gunsmith, when I know of them in their state.
As for the OP and his Remington. I wonder why the concern about taking the rifle to a Remington approved or authorized gunsmith? There are plenty of great gunsmiths who could do the same job, and no reason they need to be Remington authorized. If I lived in Michigan I'd be at Johnson's Sporting Goods talking to Steve Durren about the rebarrel. Probably one of the finest gunsmiths in the country, and I doubt anyone has ever had a complaint with his work.
And to the person from Missouri with his local gunsmith not knowing what headspace was. I'd be calling up Lee Shaver and arranging to have him look at that gun. I doubt he'd be susrprised if you asked him about headspace.
There are still hundreds of competent gunsmiths around, doing great work. Many are like John Taylor, who are so good they don't advertise anymore, so finding them takes word of mouth. I have plenty of resources, but none that are a close drive. John Taylor is 3 hours away, and others I trust are getting my stuff mailed to them. But competent gunsmiths can be found if you try, and are willing to pay them a fair price for the quality work they do.
I don't need parts changers. I'll take care of that myself.

HangFireW8
02-05-2019, 01:35 PM
As for the OP and his Remington. I wonder why the concern about taking the rifle to a Remington approved or authorized gunsmith?

I don't understand the OP's obsession with a large commercial company that won't do his personal bidding. He sure has started enough threads and used enough bandwidth in his frustration. He could have just asked for recommendations and have had work started by now.

I'm guessing 9-12 months we are not going to see a picture heavy custom gun build thread from the OP. I hope I'm wrong.

fatelk
02-08-2019, 02:19 AM
Very interesting thread; I've enjoyed the read. I worked for a gunsmith many years ago, as a part time beginning machinist. I found a good job in industry and never looked back. I don't say that to disparage you self employed gunsmiths. Quite the opposite- I have a lot of respect for what you guys do. It's a lot of work and long hours. I've heard the specialization theme many times over the years. The guy I used to work for specialized long ago, and last I heard was doing very well.

I suspect that one of the reasons the average customer is so cheap is that modern mass-produced guns are so cheap. You can often buy a brand new bolt action rifle, with scope, for under $300. It's going to be a cheap, mass produced thing, but many of them shoot pretty well. You can often find a very usable plastic-wonder pistol for around the same money. $300 is roughly a day's wages for a lot of working guys. It's really not that much money. The self-employed guy has to bring in more than I do, just because of all the overhead, and the fact that you never get paid for anywhere near all the hours you actually work.

So what this means is Joe Sixpack brings his huntin' gun to be fixed up, expects you to spend hours working on it along with all the other time inherent to any project, but doesn't want to pay much because after all, he could just buy a new one for $300. There's just no value in putting much time into a cheap gun.

I can do most things for myself, that don't require actual machine work. I can make a lot of small parts and sure understand what was said about the value of knowing how to use a file. One of these days I'd really like to get a small lathe, but just for my own stuff as a hobby. I've done a lot of projects for friends over the years, enough that I've got a reputation among them as the go-to guy. I've been referred to as a "gunsmith" on occasion and I quickly correct that. I am NOT a gunsmith, any more than the kid down the street who is always tinkering with his car is a certified mechanic. I only take on projects for good friends, and I always refuse payment. I'm an amateur, and it's a favor for a friend, nothing more.

One friend of mine is always saying I need to get into it as a business, because everything I've done for him has turned out so nice. I tell him every time that the problem is for one thing, I don't have the skills to be a real gunsmith. For another, I couldn't afford it. For a third, the reason his projects turn out nice is because I can take the time, in my spare time, to spend 20 hours on something for him. If he paid a gunsmith to do that the cost would be astronomical. No, while I certainly respect what you guys do, it's not for me.

John Taylor
02-09-2019, 07:02 PM
A fellow gunsmith commented a while back on how to make a million buck as a gunsmith, start with five million.

indian joe
02-09-2019, 08:12 PM
A fellow gunsmith commented a while back on how to make a million buck as a gunsmith, start with five million.

just like bein a farmer (downunder anyways)

Texas by God
02-10-2019, 01:13 AM
just like bein a farmer (downunder anyways)
A local farmer won 2 million in the lottery. When asked what he'd do with all that money he said he'd keep farming till it was gone in a couple of years........

HangFireW8
02-10-2019, 01:54 AM
I see the OP is off to band camp.