.45-70 patch size

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m getting ready to load and shoot my first PP with BP. I’ll be shooting it in a Marlin lever gun using greese cookies and NOT swabing the bore after each shot. When done, I plan to remove the lever and bolt to swab it out to clean it.

I have a really nice old cotton bed sheet that I plan to cut for patches. Since the size is up to me, I was wondering what would be the best size to make them.

Thanks

[BrentD]

bed sheet?

They don't call them "paper patches" because they use bed sheets. Stick with paper.

[rfd]

greg, you mixing up muzzleloaders and bpcr PPB? :)

[upnorthwis]

I read it as he was using the bed sheet for swabbing. Will have to cut and try. Depends on jag size.

[country gent]

I think he wants to make cleaning patches. Size of the patches will depend on you jags size and style, along with the thickness of the material. most of my wrap jags for 45 caliber are a good snug fit with a 3" flannel cleaning patch. your bed sheet may be thinner requiring a longer patch. Cut a strip as wide as the jag is long. wrap to a snug fit and measure its length. A few soft wiping cloths 10"-12" square are very handy also, for wiping cleaning insides of actions and outside of firearms. These like a patch can be used with solvent oils or dry. I have one with oil that's stored in a zip lock bag and used for years to wipe down outsides of firearms. I prefer the flannel patches for cleaning the knap on them catches and holds solvent better and also seems to move fouling better.

Especially for your marlin an Otis cleaning system (pull through cable) is very desirable since you can start with it from the action and pull fouling to the muzzle and out. once fouling is gone the the normal rod can be used.

[GregLaROCHE]

Is the Otis system the same as what is called a bore snake?

[rfd]

greg, make PPB shooting simple and easy at least from the get-go. you wanna wipe between shots for bp fouling control. this means running a moist patch and then a drying patch after every firing. most will use a delrin rod for this process and the fit of the patched jag makes for a relatively easy push down the tube and out the muzzle.

[Nobade]

This.
PP with black powder in leverguns is pretty much a no-go unless you duplex load it. And by the time you seat the bullet deep enough to fit in the action you've lost any advantage PP has. Not to say don't do it, but you'll likely not be very impressed.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have considered a duplex round. I was worried at first about BP in a lever gun, but then got a lot of people saying they did it and it was no big deal. I’m not planning to cycle the rounds. I’ll load them one at a time. I’m using this gun to test as much as I can, before I spend the money on a new gun more appropriate.

These delrin cleaning rods, are they flexible, so I can get into the barrel from the chamber end, without removing the lever and bolt after each shot?

[country gent]

The Otis is similar to a bore snake but in a way more suited to BP. It is a cable with a screw on t handle for pulling and the other end is set up with 8-32 threads for brush jag and other accessories. Unlike the bore snakes that are brush and wiper as part of the unit, the Otis patches and brushes ( when worn out) are disposable consumables. A bore snake will work but it will continue to spread fouling in the bore with each pull thru. I think brushes last longer on the Otis system than a rod since the bristles are never reversed in travel.

[GregLaROCHE]

I just researched Otis cleaning kits and think one would be perfect for what I am looking to do. That way I can easily clean after each shot if I need to.

[rfd]

bpcr for single shot guns is a no-brainer for me, particularly of the PPB kind, but bp cartridges for lever guns seems like way too much of a hassle. as to duplex loading, that also makes no sense to me - why even bother, just load smokeless and be done with it. in any event, good luck greg!

[Lead pot]

If you select the proper bullet design you can lever through as many rounds you want without a feeding issue. I have several Marlins and they all shoot black powder without any feeding problems till the barrel gets so hot I smell the wood. :) No need to duplex, just pick the right bullet and a good lube.

[GregLaROCHE]

If you select the proper bullet design you can lever through as many rounds you want without a feeding issue. I have several Marlins and they all shoot black powder without any feeding problems till the barrel gets so hot I smell the wood. :) No need to duplex, just pick the right bullet and a good lube.

Do you use a greese cookie? If so what is it made of and how thick?
Thanks

[Lead pot]

232827

In my Marlins I don't shoot a PP too often because the chances of snagging the patch and rolling it back causing problems. I use greasers for the lever rifles. For the GG no lube wad is needed when you hv a good bullet. The bullet must have multiple lube grooves or a wide grooves. The depth of the grooves are best shallow about .020" because the lube below that point will never get used.

The bullet above was a design Pope used for a lot of calibers for the Ideal moulds and you will never find a better performing bullet for a lever rifle that will let you shoot as many as you want without feeding problems.
If you look at the way the ogive is designed, it will never fail to chamber when you load it properly in the case and it carries lube that bare lead makes very little contact with the lands and they seal the bore very good holding gas back preventing lead smears from gas cuts when they are case using a soft alloy.
That bullet is a copy of the 457-121 I had custom made for the proper size for the Marlin and the 73 trapdoor because the Lyman moulds have a tendency to make the diameter to small for my liking. I also use this ogive design for the .444 Marlin.

Look at this old Ideal hand book page and look at the way the ogives taper down to the front driving band.http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=1444 most of those bullets are designed to chamber in a fouled chamber from repeated shots fired in lever rifles or falling blocks.

Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

I don't know if any of this will help but I'll post what little I know about PPB in leverguns and also BP in leverguns.

First I have never combined the three, black powder, paper patch bullet and leverguns, but I have used both ppb and bp in leverguns.

With BP I have always used grease groove bullets in my levergun. The rifle is a Uberti Henry in .44 WCF. I did not use a lube cookie, but I was able to shoot multiple shots without cleaning and with very good accuracy out to 300 yards. Beyond 300 the little 200 grain bullets didn't hold up well. The bullets I used were purchased and of an old Lyman designed specifically for the .44 WCF. I have no idea what lube was on those bullets but it was made for black powder and was very good. Not wanting to be killed I did not press the bullet maker on the subject after asking him once.

When I did feel a need to wipe the bore, about every 15 to 20 shots, I would just put a fired case in the chamber with the action closed, then with a damp patch I would use a snug fitting jag on the end of my cleaning rod with a bore guide at the muzzle to push the patch and fouling into the empty case in the chamber. I would remove the rod, eject the case and I was ready for more shooting. The dirty case would just be cleaned with the others at the end of the day. With the snug fitting fired case in the chamber no fouling would get into the chamber. It was quick and effective. The patch was dampened with spit, which I learned cleans bp fouling very well.

All of that cleaning methodI learned from years of shooting a flintlock while moving fast and traveling light. I was a bit younger then and I don't move so fast these days.

Paper patch in leverguns is a tricky thing. I only ever used smokeless powders. I had a custom made mold that was straight sided and groove diameter plus .002". It resembled a semi-wadcutter and I patched to the end of the groove diameter portion and seated it so only about .030" of the patch was showing. Accuracy was very good from my Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with micro-groove rifling.

Then one day I had something go wrong with a patch, probably damage as it was cycled from the tube. That resulted in the worst leading I have ever seen in a rifle. I've seen some really bad leading in pistols and revolvers and this was like that. I had fired 2 more shots after the bad patch and those three bullets leaded things up really bad. It took hours to clean it out.

After that day I decided that grease groove were designed for leverguns and God had made paper patch bullets for the single shots. I never tried to mix the two again. I am a happy man as a result of that decision.

I do believe Brent has combined the two successfully and knows how that is done. I just consider it a lesson learned.

Good luck!

[Bent Ramrod]

If you use one of those Delrin 3/8” cleaning rods like Arizona Sharpshooter’s used to sell, cutting your bedsheets in 1-1/2”x1-1/2” squares ought to get you close.

The 3/8” Delrin rod would bend enough to be usable on a Peabody or Martini, but doesn’t work on a Trapdoor, so would be impossible through the side port of a Marlin lever gun. However, a 5/16” Delrin rod ought to work on a Trapdoor, and might work on the Marlin without taking the bolt out. If not, a 3/16” rod might work or a 1/4”, although the last might be too flexible to push well. You would, of course, need to cut the patches larger and/or fold them over to make up windage.

I use chopped-up flannel bedsheets in smaller calibers, but for .44 and .45, nothing beats old white cotton gym socks. The same absorbency that works so well on feet works equally well on black powder fouling/grease cookie goo.

[Gobeyond]

The length of a paper patch is diameter of bullet times 3.1416 times two for double the circumference of the bullet.

[BrentD]

The length of a paper patch is diameter of bullet times 3.1416 times two for double the circumference of the bullet.

Almost. You forget the diameter for the second lap around the bullet is greater than for the first lap. This is one case where it is easier to estimate empirically, but you could use Length = (diameter of bullet x Pi) + ((diameter of the bullet +( 2 x thickness of the patch)) x Pi)

[Nobade]

Almost. You forget the diameter for the second lap around the bullet is greater than for the first lap. This is one case where it is easier to estimate empirically, but you could use Length = (diameter of bullet x Pi) + ((diameter of the bullet +( 2 x thickness of the patch)) x Pi)In theory. But in practice the paper stretches enough for it to even out or be a bit long.

[BrentD]

In theory. But in practice the paper stretches enough for it to even out or be a bit long.

I'm pretty acquainted with practice. For that reason, I much prefer empirical measures in this instance. One can, and most do, agonize about such things as this that will never put another point on their scores.

[Nobade]

I'm pretty acquainted with practice. For that reason, I much prefer empirical measures in this instance. One can, and most do, agonize about such things as this that will never put another point on their scores.Quite correct. Experience is usually more useful than theory if you can get it.

[BrentD]

Quite correct. Experience is usually more useful than theory if you can get it.

Not necessarily, but in this instance, perhaps. If you are going to use Pi to 4 digits, might as well get the rest of the theory right (because, properly done the theory is right). Otherwise carrying Pi to the 4th decimal is pretty meaningless.

[Nobade]

Not necessarily, but in this instance, perhaps. If you are going to use Pi to 4 digits, might as well get the rest of the theory right (because, properly done the theory is right). Otherwise carrying Pi to the 4th decimal is pretty meaningless.Rules for precision,
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe.

[country gent]

A lot like a 1/ 16" .060 -1 / 32" .030 gap between the ends. When the second wrap lays over the first there is a small radius their and this small gaps makes for a smoother wrap.

[Good Cheer]

Another way is to dry wrap with a piece of the paper you're going to use, snip through it on the exposed edge of the paper cylinder, unroll it and establish the distance between the snips. Two snips will be too long so reduce a millimeter or so and try a wet wrap with the paper cut to whatever parallelogram you're gonna use. Observe the gap or overlap. Adjust the length while muttering the mantra of St. Galena, "Measure once, cuss twice."

[country gent]

Good Cheer,

I cut a strip and wrap 2 1/2 wraps cut a nick thru in both full wraps. lay out the tapered ends from the nicks -.032. I then rubber cement this to the material Im cutting the template from and cut and file it to size. The test patch becomes template for the template and makes it easy to cut and form

[BrentD]

Good Cheer,

I cut a strip and wrap 2 1/2 wraps cut a nick thru in both full wraps. lay out the tapered ends from the nicks -.032. I then rubber cement this to the material Im cutting the template from and cut and file it to size. The test patch becomes template for the template and makes it easy to cut and form

This is the best way. And if you cut the template a little long or a little short you can always file it a little more to fix.

[rfd]

i find it best to cut the paper template to the exact size, then file the brass template in stages of sorts, to produce proper patches.

if the brass template is a little too short, time to start all over.

[BrentD]

.

if the brass template is a little too short, time to start all over.

Not necessarily. You probably can lengthen the template by filing it, if you think about it.

[GregLaROCHE]

Or maybe tapping on it to stretch the brass some to add length.

[rfd]

Not necessarily. You probably can lengthen the template by filing it, if you think about it.

depends on what "short" is. easier to it it with a hammer, i'd think. but i'd rather get it right from the get-go rather than to fudge it later.

[BrentD]

No! It will make it longer but not nicely.

[beltfed]

Here is another way I use to cut patches. Don't need to make up a template for
every different size patch I need. Once I determine width and length of patch, I
make up 4 layer strips of the paper at the appropriate width, then mark off to length I need
and cut them on the paper cutter at a 30 degree angle as seen below.
beltfed/arnie
261868

[country gent]

I do the same with an adjustable fence and rails. My paper cutter is a rolling cutter . I start by cutting 10 strip wide "squares". these have 1 edge stick glued together. I then cut strips and end glue them in bundles of 5. Tape down the 45* rail, I use double faced tape for this. Then cut the first angle and feed thru to the fence and cut the patches. I can cut a bunch of patches in a setting. The rolling cutters have a cam type clamp that locks the paper while cutting. I set it n my lap and cut while watching a good movie.

[Michael J. Spangler]

This.
PP with black powder in leverguns is pretty much a no-go unless you duplex load it. And by the time you seat the bullet deep enough to fit in the action you've lost any advantage PP has. Not to say don't do it, but you'll likely not be very impressed.


Why does deep seating ruin the benefit of paper patch? VS deep seating grease grooves bullets?

[Nobade]

Why does deep seating ruin the benefit of paper patch? VS deep seating grease grooves bullets?Wow, that was two years ago. I think what I was trying to say then is when you paper patch for single shots, the case is full of powder and the bullet is riding the lands, already lined up. You get more power due to the bigger charge and better accuracy due to no damage of the bullet going through the throat. But your ammo is really long and fragile, won't work through a lever action. If you load a big, say 500 grain bullet, so it will fit in the action there's not much room for powder in the case and the performance will be somewhat less than impressive. At that point you may as well use grease groove bullets and save yourself the work. At least that's what I think I was trying to say...

[Michael J. Spangler]

Got it. So it’s more about deep seating running it that shooting greasers.
A nice 500 grain greaser seated deep enough to cycle in say a Marlin 1895 is a waster of time too.

I wish my Pedersoli Sharps had the throat for paper patch. Then again I shoot smokeless.
I guess the question is, if I seat the bullet as long as I can so that it’s into the throat does it matter if it has a grease groove short throat vs a paper patch style throat? If I’m not using BP then I don’t really run into powder capacity issues. Will I still have the same accuracy as long as its jammed into the rifling either style throat?

I finally picked up some 5744 so I’m looking to make some test loads. Hope I’m not wasting my time with PP in that rifle.

Thanks!

[country gent]

Almost all my best paper patched shooters have no throat the leade comes right off the case mouth. I think the extra bore support helps as long as the bullet is swelling to the throat and back down. Shooting bore riding paper patched bullets there isnt much need for a throat

[Nobade]

If you're shooting PP with smokeless, the lack of throat in a 45-70 isn't really a problem but your techniques and bullets will be completely different than if you were shooting black powder. BTW if you haven't noticed yet, 45 Colt bullets are the perfect size to patch up and shoot in a 45-70 with smokeless. And a 250gr. bullet can be motivated to travel at quite a high speed with enough medium fast rifle powder behind it, makes a wicked varmint gun that way.

[Michael J. Spangler]

If you're shooting PP with smokeless, the lack of throat in a 45-70 isn't really a problem but your techniques and bullets will be completely different than if you were shooting black powder. BTW if you haven't noticed yet, 45 Colt bullets are the perfect size to patch up and shoot in a 45-70 with smokeless. And a 250gr. bullet can be motivated to travel at quite a high speed with enough medium fast rifle powder behind it, makes a wicked varmint gun that way.

Good idea on the Colt bullets. I have been sizing down some Lee 405 grain RNFP from a mould that drops at about .455” or so. I size down to .453” and patch up to .4595” or so.

Then I pretty much load them out as far as I can and hope for the best. Should I be doing something other than this?

I have some absolutely perfect cast Lyman Postell bullets that I’m waiting to wrap. These things are falling with about 1 grain variation. I have brand new Starline brass all primed up waiting and like I said I have 5744 for powder because I’ve Heard such good things about it.

I’m thinking the only variable would be the powder charge and my poor shooting abilities. Well maybe finding the dead spot in the barrel to rest on.

[Don McDowell]

Don't waste your time and those postels and the 5744 by sizing them down and trying to patch them. Shoot them lubed with a good lube.
A better thing for patching would be a paper patch bullet from .444 to .446 diameter, wrapped and loaded over black powder.
The 5744 will work alright for grease groove bullets.