New to Range Scrap

[ChristopherO]

First time smelting range scrap. The mix acts as if it contains too much linotype when casting a 405 grain bullet. Very hard bullets and brittle cutting the sprue. Is this normal? I expected a softer consistency. Going to need to add more plumber's lead to lower the bhn, so it seems.
Any experienced words of wisdom welcome.

[Peregrine]

I'd guess it might be the copper sneaking into the alloy, it only takes a fraction of a percent to harden it up significantly. Are you water dropping?

[Czech_too]

Would you clarify "very hard bullets and brittle cutting the sprue"?

I use range lead exclusively in everything I cast and I'm not finding it that hard (bhn) nor brittle.
What comes to mind is that you may be waiting to long when cutting the sprue and as a result are finding it hard to do so.
If this is the case, I can see where it might lead you to believe that the lead is harder and more brittle than it actually is.

I mean no disrespect, just looking for more information.

[GregLaROCHE]

I found the same thing with my range scrap. I was researching the best way to harden it. Then I got a BHN tester and found out my range scrap was averaging 16+ BHN. I finally figured out, that the 25 yard range, where I was getting my range scrap from, was used mostly by hand gunners and unjacked boolits they used, have a lot harder alloy than most jacketed bullets found at most 100 yard ranges. Now I am looking for pure lead to soften things up and not linotype.

[high standard 40]

Range lead can vary a lot depending on what type of bullets were recovered. I processed about 500 pounds of ingots from an indoor range. What I ended up with was very near the same BH as COWW.

[ChristopherO]

Excellent point about the type of range the scrap is coming from. This is from an indoor range where the vast majority of the rounds fired are from pistols.
When I said hard this means the bullet is nearly as hard as the ones I've cast in the past where I did intentionally add an abundance of linotype to the mix. I've not been a big fan of boolits that hard and the casting qualities of that mixture. Since then I've softened the alloy as I enjoy how it pours and shoots better.
The brittle comment is that the sprue cuts off easy enough, almost breaks off instead of cuts off. The consistency of the sprue area on the base of the bullet is grainy, not a clean, smooth swipe of lead. Plus, I am not waiting too long to cut the sprue when it is smearing excessively as these large, heavy bullets take forever to cool and harden. 20 seconds wasn't enough and the sprue was an ugly hole of rough lead. 30 seconds was fair but 40 seconds (double cavity mold) ensured there wasn't any smear. Yep, the mold was hot and so was the pot of lead. This was the first time casting indoors and not in a garage with cool air blowing through. In the past the cool air would allow the mold to cool a bit faster, this I know. I got lazy and thought the basement would suffice. Won't be doing that anymore.

Yes, I did water quench these particular bullets. Yes, I realize that will surface harden alloys, also. But the consistency of the sprue cut and the "feel" of the sprue waste reminds me of the earlier boolits I experimented with that contained too much linotype. It seemed light, hard but fragile. They just weren't pretty boolits. Too many had to go back into the pot. When all is going well very few go back in once the mold and pot are hot enough.

I am quite familiar with pure lead. Thousands of MZLDER conicals taught me the joys of bullet casting. Then, Lyman #2 for many more plinkers for the 30/06. A few summers back I smelted 90 lb of plumber's lead. Love that stuff. Found a proper mix of it and a little bit of linotype to make me happy. In the past 3 1/2 years I've casts many hundreds of 45 caliber 405 grain boolits for this 1895 Cowboy with a Lee die and a Noe flat nose gas check die. This 45/70 is a hungry beast that consumes lead quickly. Thought the offer for a couple buckets of range scrap would be the ticket to feed this fun. When the proprietor of the indoor range and I were talking the thought struck me that maybe range scrap would solve the magic mix formula. Just smelt, flux, cast and go shoot. Interestingly, this is not the case, as I am finding out.

I still have some, but not much, pure lead in the shed but that is reserved only for muzzleloader projectiles. I am not deprived of plumber's lead but am amazed how the supply is et into so fast. Going to have to scrounge up some more when possible. I suppose this will be a trial and error of melting and mixing until the pot holds just the right BHN I am looking for, even if I don't have a tester.
Thanks for your comments. More to consider.

[JWFilips]

On my range we have a good contingent of cast bullet shooters however they mostly use commercial hard cast ( average bhn of the alloy is 18) the rest of he range scrap is jacketed ( smelted this averages bhn 8) tedious as it sounds I hand sort all the commercial hard cast from the jacketed stuff
Then I smelt each separate yielding soft and hard alloy ingots. This way I can blend the alloys as I see fit.

[Dusty Bannister]

I am sure that with your long experience with bullet casting that you are aware that pure lead needs to be cast at a higher temperature than alloys of tin, antimony and lead. You are describing casting large and heavy bullets at too high a temperature which over heats the mold and does take a lot longer to have the sprue puddle "freeze" and result in a clean cut. What you have is a slushy bullet and the sprue is being torn from the base and not cut. This is not a condition of being brittle, but of being still semi-fluid. And when you quench the bullet, it is not surface hardened, it will harden throughout the casting. Your "not" pretty bullets are more likely the result of the presence of antimony in your alloy, and being cast at too high a temperature. They likely have a galvanized appearance from excessively high casting temps. Dusty

[ChristopherO]

Danny, you are correct, I was running hot. Once I got the furnace and mold up to a high temperature I would back it off to try to alleviate the overheating issue on the mold. I ladle pour and it wasn't pouring perfectly when hot. The ladle stays in the pot at all times to ensure the spout stays open and clear. Once I turned the temp back a setting then the ladle would clog up to a slower trickle, causing the cavities not to fill completely. It was an effort in frustration. If only all alloys flowed as well as pure lead does.

From my research decades ago I was under the impression that the water quench was more a topical hardening. Years ago the word was that once a quenched bullet is pressed through the sizing die that disturbs the outer layer then the softer lead underneath will be what contacts the bore. With my prior pours this mold cast slugs large enough for the .460 sizing die to contact consistently around the perimeter. These dropped smaller and mic out at .459 instead. Confess I am not an expert on the various alloys and your information is updated and more accurate in this regard. Water quenching is not my normal method when casting. Don't think I'll continue the practice.

I've cast some beautiful boolits from these molds in the past. Will need to tinker and persevere to get this supply of lead to do the same. This mold is a plain base that I use for low end velocity target/practice shooting. A few that aren't just perfect isn't a big deal. But I will wait to get the mix right before heating up the NOE gc mold. Appreciate all the input you gentlemen have supplied thus far.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps this is part of what you are thinking of. This is from the LASC by Rick Kelter.
" Bullets destined for heat treating should be sized without lube and gas checked before they are heat treated, not after. Sizing hardened bullets is not only tough on your lubrisizer, tough on the bullets and tough on you, it also will work soften the driving bands of your bullets, the very part you wanted to strengthen. After a day or two for age hardening and to completely dry out they can be run through the lubri-sizer using a die .0005" to .001" larger than the die they were sized with."

There is a LASC sign to click on at the bottom of the pages to access the LASC site, then seek the sections you want to review. Good luck, Dusty

[ChristopherO]

I have been adding plumber's lead pipe to the range scrap. Much better in all regards. The casting, the sprue puddle, the boolits. This makes me happy with the results.
Appreciate all your input and suggestions, gentlemen. This site is a wealth of information.