S&W K-38 Heavy Masterpiece extractor play

[CeeHoo]

Gentlemen, a couple of months ago I purchased this SAO model 14-2, made in 1964. I paid 250€ so can't really complain. Craftsmanship appears to be good, chamber throats measure about .3575-.3580", cylinder gap is constantly .004" with nearly zero endshake and the revolver passes range rod test, at least with Brownells Service die.

However, the revolver has seen some amateurish abuse, some of which I have been able to correct but still certain concerns remain. One of them is extractor rotational play. I have the newest edition of Kuhnhausen's S&W shop manual and he suggests that max. .001" play would be tolerable. If greater, he doesn't talk about correcting the issue but merely advises to make sure that hand is able to rotate cylinder to positive cylinder stop/slot engagement at all chamber positions.

Surprisingly enough, mine still does that before hammer reaches full cock, even though the extractor play is maybe .020" when viewed at the points of the extractor star (see pictures of the extreme positions). Closer the center pin, play becomes shorter obviously. This is when hammer is cocked slowly while dragging the (empty) cylinder with thumb. Moderate drag isn't enough for the hand to push the extrator "out of alignment" which I guess is the reason timing remains OK. I haven't tried with severe drag applied but I don't think that is necessary. Both cylinder and extractor match the frame serial number.

The extractor alignment pins are present in the cylinder but as this is my first S&W, I'm too noob to tell whether the pins are original or not. It seems though the pins are bent somewhat. Perhaps someone has tried to tighten or disassemble the cylinder assembly without supporting the extractor. I don't know yet if the pin holes in the extractor are enlarged/deformed. The pins are fairly short, longer ones might give better support. If original S&W pins, are they simply friction fit and removable?

I'm thinking to disassemble the cylinder for more evidence. I have Brownells extractor rod remover for the job. I also have Brownells extractor support tool but empty cases seem to work better.

Thanks for any advice and Merry Christmas!

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00227/14627133.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00485/14651220.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00197/14651221.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00884/14651222.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00790/14651223.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00631/14651224.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00354/14651225.jpg

[AZ Pete]

How does it shoot? The cartridges will support the extractor, so I do not think the minor play will create any issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Good pics!

Yes, it appears that somebody disassembled the cylinder without having cases in the chambers to support the extractor, so the pins were bent. I think it unlikely that the alignment holes in the extractor were damaged, but anything is possible.

The pins are usually just pressed in, and you should be able to pull them with parallel-jaw pliers and install replacements. Numrich should have them.

Worst case find a replacement cylinder of the right era and change number on GunBroker.

Good luck!

[CeeHoo]

How does it shoot? The cartridges will support the extractor, so I do not think the minor play will create any issue.


About 2" at 25 meters with handloaded Hornady 148gr HBWC and 4.0 grains of VV N330, when all six chambers are fired. One flier is usually out of the group. With five shots groups would be 1.2-1.5" or so. Further studies would be needed to find out if one of the chambers is different or if it's load or shooter skill issue.

Fired brass certainly removes extractor play almost completely but sized brass doesn't cut the slack at all. Cases could be neck sized though but there seem to be some variation in chamber rear diameter in this gun. That is, loading the gun with mixed cases, although fired in this gun, makes chambering hard, if not impossible.

[HangFireW8]

Those are good photos.

Barrel distortion is common on closeups... But to my eye, those pins do look bent, one more than the other.

[CeeHoo]

Yes, it appears that somebody disassembled the cylinder without having cases in the chambers to support the extractor, so the pins were bent.




Barrel distortion is common on closeups... But to my eye, those pins do look bent, one more than the other.

Today I disassembled the cylinder with Brownells tool and fired cases. As expected, extractor rod threads are left handed. Rod was snug but not overly tight and threads are all intact. Both the rod and center pin are straight.

Now that there's more room, here's another picture of the pins. Yes, one is leaning to the left and another one is leaning to the right. I found some pin information on Smith & Wesson forum and it says there that new pins are 0.055" in diameter. Mine measure 0.0525-0.053" making them somewhat undersized. When measuring both at the same, while bearing in mind the ends are pointing slightly to different directions, you get 0.054". Lengths of the portions pointing out of the cylinder are 0.100" and 0.094". The ratchet pin holes would take pins up to 0.130" in length.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/249258-ratchet-extractor-star.html

I was able to measure the extractor play at the ends of the "fingers" and it's 0.014". Measuring play at the alignment pins vs. pin holes is too hard with my gear but as it's directly proportional to play at the fingers it can be calculated. If I did my math right the pin play is about 0.0057". If one reads Kuhnhausen's 5th edition further, it says on page 64 that "Suggested ratchet pin/pin hole clearance: .001" min and .002" max."

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00765/14651584.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00495/14651585.jpg





I think it unlikely that the alignment holes in the extractor were damaged, but anything is possible.

The pins are usually just pressed in, and you should be able to pull them with parallel-jaw pliers and install replacements. Numrich should have them.


I checked the pin holes at extractor too and I don't see any notable damage in them. They are fairly large in diameter however and and can take 1.5mm drill bit (measures 0.057") with just very little clearance. Well, if splitting hairs, the holes allow the bit to tip sideways more to one direction than other, matching how the alignment pins are bent, which suggests minor deformation has occurred.

The bit might seem like ideal repro pin material though. The question is should you repair something that isn't totally broken?

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00660/14651586.jpg

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00582/14651587.jpg

[Outpost75]

The proof of the pudding is in the shooting. If the revolver functions reliably and shoots well it sould do no further harm to leave it as-is, but if you have a source for replacement pins or can fabricate them from available stock, I would be tempted to at least try. If you existing pins are not hardened, it may be possible to straighten them carefully.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I also own a S&W 14 - 2, mine is both single and double action. I have not heard of a single action variant, unless `BUBBA`the amateur gunsmith went to work on it with a grinder on parts making it a single action. The internal lock system and cylinder pawls appear to be `worked` on. To get an idea of what was done to this fine pistol I would suggest a compatent gunsmith tear it down and examine what need replacing.Robert

[CeeHoo]

Both the hammer and trigger are SAO. Neither one has ever had DA capabilities apparently. SA breaks like glass. These parts are fine as is.

I've heard that S&W made some SAO target models in the 1970s but I'm not sure if they did that in the sixties. They also sold the K frame SAO trigger kits which inluded target hammer, target trigger and rebound slide spring.

https://img.aijaa.com/b/00751/14651726.jpg

[Petrol & Powder]

With 2" groups at 25 meters I wouldn't change a thing.

Considering it's a SA gun and the cylinder bolt locks as it should, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by attempting to correct the issue.

[tazman]

I also own a S&W 14 - 2, mine is both single and double action. I have not heard of a single action variant, unless `BUBBA`the amateur gunsmith went to work on it with a grinder on parts making it a single action. The internal lock system and cylinder pawls appear to be `worked` on. To get an idea of what was done to this fine pistol I would suggest a compatent gunsmith tear it down and examine what need replacing.Robert

I ran across a number of them at a nearby gun shop about 4 years ago. They had been re-imported from France where they had been used on the police dept target squad. Apparently, they had been ordered that way directly from S&W. All of them were in good shape but I wanted one with DA capability.


With 2" groups at 25 meters I wouldn't change a thing.

Considering it's a SA gun and the cylinder bolt locks as it should, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by attempting to correct the issue.

My thought as well.

[Tatume]

The "Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" by Jim Supica mentions the SAO variants. They were preferred by some Bullseye shooters, and were available to distributors in the U.S.

[smoked turkey]

Several years ago, a friend of mine purchased one of the single action only (SAO) variants and got a better deal because the seller thought the revolver was broken. Needless to say my friend was elated to find he had scored a somewhat rare SAO Smith. CeeHoo from your descriptions of everything it appears you possibly have the knowledge and ability to replace the pins yourself. If I had a similar situation and had your mechanical skills I'd sure be tempted to do the necessary work to put the problem right. Just my thoughts. You need to do what you think is best in this situation.

[HangFireW8]

The SAO variant of the Masterpiece dates from the late 60's and was very much a factory option.

[boatbum101]

Was a factory option for quite some time . Parts were also sold so one could make the mod themselves . Used to be quite common mod for Buiiseye shooting in years past . In collector circles a documented SAO gun demands a premium .