.303 British ammo in Afghanistan

[Combat Diver]

Have found the following .303 Headstamps. All ammo berdan primed

British factories
/|\ = UK Government Property. Formerly the badge of the Sidney family, the broad arrow (or "Devil's Claws") symbol was appropriated by the British government to indicate the item was government issue
The 'Z' suffix Refers to graphite glazed nitro-cellulose propellant

B/|\E
Royal Ordnance Factory, Blackpole, Worcester, UK
Ball, Mk VII 1941 dated

K or KYNOCH
Kynoch & Co, Witton, Birmingham, UK.
Ball, Mk VIIZ 1918 dated
Ball Mk VII 1933 and 1937 dated
Armor Piercing, W Mk I 1940 and 1941 dated

K5
Imperial Chemical Industries Kynoch factory at Kidderminster, Worcestershire., UK
Armor Piercing, W Mk I 1942 dated

R/|\L
Royal Laboratory, Woolwich Arsenal, Kent, UK. Woolwich Arsenal, of which the Royal Laboratory was only a part, is situated in South East London on the River Thames. Arsenal est in 1670
Ball, Mk VII 1941 dated

Canadian factories
DAC
Dominion Arsenal, Quebec, Canada
Ball, Mk VII 1941 and 1942 dated

DI
Defence Industries, Verdun, Canada
Ball, Mk VII Z 1942 dated

Indian factories
K/|\F
Indian Government Ammunition Factory Kirkee (or Kirkee Arsenal), near Poona, INDIA
Ball, Mk VII 1936, 1938 and 1942

Some cases are sterile and those have copper jacketed bullets. Guns I get to shoot the ammo out of BREN Mk 2 LMG, Pattern 1914 (Remington produced) and a No 1 Mk III (GRI, 1945)

CD

[Petrol & Powder]

That's some interesting information.
A great example of the influence of the British empire and proof of the longevity of metallic cartridges.

What's the story behind the sterile (unmarked) casings? Local production or made for clandestine services ?

[Combat Diver]

That's some interesting information.
A great example of the influence of the British empire and proof of the longevity of metallic cartridges.

What's the story behind the sterile (unmarked) casings? Local production or made for clandestine services ?

Don't know about the serial ammo. Found in Taliban caches.

CD

[Petrol & Powder]

Don't know about the serial ammo. Found in Taliban caches.

CD

I wonder if that was introduced into that region by the U.S. government during the 1979-1989 Soviet occupation?
OR
introduced into that region by some other government entity during that time frame?

[one-eyed fat man]

How is the .303 you are finding for hangfires?

The silver looking jacket material is cupro-nickel and the source of the great lumpy looking, accuracy destroying, fouling common in early smokeless guns. The "Ordnance Department Metal Fouling Solution" , commonly known as "Ammonia Dope," was the answer, sort-of, when the problem arose in the US Army.
Cupro-nickel was fine in the Krag but the increased velocity of the .30-06 cartridge the fouling quickly built up to problem levels. The dope would dissolve the metal fouling alright, but it was tricky to use. The "dope" was poured into a rifle barrel with a "corked chamber". A piece of rubber tubing was placed over the muzzle to allow the dope to cover the muzzle and prevent any air getting to any metal exposed to the dope. Any contact with air would ruin the barrel within a few minutes. Needless to say, Ammonia Dope was not exactly a welcome solution to
the problem, but came under the heading of "what price accuracy". If the chamber plug became dislodged while the solution was in the bore, the stuff would run down into the receiver and cause extreme rusting wherever it touched the metal. At best the dope was a nuisance and at worst, a disaster. The formula for the dope for those of you who are curious was:


Ammonia Persulphate 1 ounce
Ammonia Carbonate 200 grains
Stronger Ammonia Water (28%) 6 ounces
Water 4 ounces


The solution had to be made up fresh for each use. If the dope became "stale" it became corrosive to the barrel. After a 20-minute treatment, the solution had to be immediately poured from the bore. The bore was then dried and oiled. This treatment dissolved the metal fouling and left the bore pristine for further firing. Needless to say, the troops (and competition rifle shooters) looked for alternative methods of reducing the irritating cupro-nickel fouling. The British used a cleaner called Motty Paste which was a form of jeweler's rouge which had to be used along with a lot of elbow grease to scrub it out.

Gilding metal proved to be the eventual answer.

[MUSTANG]

Although the region is awash with the attempted "Foreign Sales" and "Foreign Intervention" products of centuries; I would postulate that some of that STERILE ammunition may well be the product of China, Russia, Pakistan, or even India as they attempt to influence various local powers in the area. Many would argue that there is no reason for a "Current" political influence to provide an older style ammunition (.303 British) as they are technologically defunct; but the possession of older firearms and handing them down through generations is not uncommon in the less affluent portions of the Wold (or even here in the good ole US of A).

[Petrol & Powder]

How about the U.S. government providing ammunition to indigenous forces friendly to the U.S. and already armed with Lee Enfield rifles during the Soviet occupation (79-89).

We had a desire to support forces friendly to us during that time but would want plausible deniability that we were supporting those forces. Whose hands that ammunition later fell into is anyone's guess.

[Outpost75]

My understanding is that the US also provided some sterile headstamp .303 made by WCC in the 1980s when the Afghans were fighting the Russians. The great majority was lead core MkVIIz loaded with 40 grains of WC846 powder. There was also some loaded with leftover 7.62mm SLAP tungsten projectiles and 42 grains of WC680 which was tested at CSTA Aberdeen Proving Ground for function in the BREN gun.

There was also normal headstamped MkVIIz made in the 1980s for the Canadian Rangers.

232654232655

[GARD72977]

This is the most interesting thread I have read in along time. Thanks for posting

[Combat Diver]

How is the .303 you are finding for hangfires?

The silver looking jacket material is cupro-nickel and the source of the great lumpy looking, accuracy destroying, fouling common in early smokeless guns. The "Ordnance Department Metal Fouling Solution" , commonly known as "Ammonia Dope," was the answer, sort-of, when the problem arose in the US Army.
Cupro-nickel was fine in the Krag but the increased velocity of the .30-06 cartridge the fouling quickly built up to problem levels. The dope would dissolve the metal fouling alright, but it was tricky to use. The "dope" was poured into a rifle barrel with a "corked chamber". A piece of rubber tubing was placed over the muzzle to allow the dope to cover the muzzle and prevent any air getting to any metal exposed to the dope. Any contact with air would ruin the barrel within a few minutes. Needless to say, Ammonia Dope was not exactly a welcome solution to
the problem, but came under the heading of "what price accuracy". If the chamber plug became dislodged while the solution was in the bore, the stuff would run down into the receiver and cause extreme rusting wherever it touched the metal. At best the dope was a nuisance and at worst, a disaster. The formula for the dope for those of you who are curious was:


Ammonia Persulphate 1 ounce
Ammonia Carbonate 200 grains
Stronger Ammonia Water (28%) 6 ounces
Water 4 ounces


The solution had to be made up fresh for each use. If the dope became "stale" it became corrosive to the barrel. After a 20-minute treatment, the solution had to be immediately poured from the bore. The bore was then dried and oiled. This treatment dissolved the metal fouling and left the bore pristine for further firing. Needless to say, the troops (and competition rifle shooters) looked for alternative methods of reducing the irritating cupro-nickel fouling. The British used a cleaner called Motty Paste which was a form of jeweler's rouge which had to be used along with a lot of elbow grease to scrub it out.

Gilding metal proved to be the eventual answer.

Not having any issues with hang fires out of these .303 guns. Case separation is another story. Both of these separated last time I fired the BREN. First failure was the neck one, then the gun still fired out of battery till second split case jammed the gun up. First round to go was a Canadian DI Mk VII 1942 case. Second was a unmarked case.

232661

CD

[JBinMN]

This is the most interesting thread I have read in along time. Thanks for posting

Yes, it is interesting.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Is it my old eyes or is the picture out of focus making the P 14 appear to be shortened?Robert

[Combat Diver]

Is it my old eyes or is the picture out of focus making the P 14 appear to be shortened?Robert
Must be the angle as it has not been shortened.

CD

ETA Post 1,000 and Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night! (0100 hrs here)

[6.5 CM]

In the movie 12 STRONG there are a few scenes where Smellies are shown. Musta had a good tech advisor.

[one-eyed fat man]

Here was one answer to corrosive primers in the Lee Enfield. A funnel designed to fit the chamber of the rifle so it could be dosed with hot water.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85028&d=1497455082

[6.5 CM]

Could also be used for convincing guys to talk !

[Outpost75]

Could also be used for convincing guys to talk !

Works that way inserted from either end BTW...

[6.5 CM]

Best to have TWO ---- you get the picture ?

P.S. Gather you are a 61 Baker fan ?

[Combat Diver]

The 1918 MkVII ammo fired without issue today. Hit 6" high at 25m dead center (sights not zero'd).
232946

CD

[Combat Diver]

Need to find some more ammo! Shot some ammo from 36-41' yesterday without issue.

237067

CD

[Jniedbalski]

Outpost 75 I know it’s been awhile since you posted this picture of 303 ammo but what can you tell me about it. I hade some of this ammo I bought from a dealer in the late 80s that said it was match ammo. It looked identical to your picture. I rember it said 303 Brit Winchester exactly like your picture and I thank made in the early 80’s. It was the best shooting ammo I ever shot out of my 303 4 mk2. When I was young with good eyes at the 300 yard range I shot a group around 3’’. I still rember shooting this group because after I shot it I walked down to my target and at first didint see a big pattern. I got closer and I could not believe that I shot a small of a group as this. I had maybe ten boxes of it and horded two boxes for ten years or so. I have been out of this ammo for a long time and always wondered what it was and why it was so accurate.

[Jniedbalski]

Outpost 75 I bought some of this ammo from a dealer in 1989. He said it was match ammo. It was some of the best ammo I ever shot out of my 303 4mk2. I always wondered what it was. I rember the ammo boxes where exactly like your picture. I thank made in the early 80’s. I rember still today that group I shot many years ago. I walked up to my target at 300 yards. At first I didint see a big pattern like I thought I would see. As I got closer I could see a small group of around 3 in For 10 shots.I had about ten boxes of this ammo . i shot it all over the next few months and horded two boxes for about 10 years always looking at gun showes for more. I tried hand loading for it but never could get it to shoot as good as this ammo. Just wondering all these years why this ammo was so good? I hade this ammo shoot less than 2in at 100 yards for a 10 shot group.for a military rifle made in the early 50,s I always thaught that was awsom.

[Jniedbalski]

Sorry for the double post. Some how the first post got double posted. I deleated one and both post disappeared so I hade to rewrite it. So that’s why two different post a little differnt

[Markopolo]

I was wondering about some of the ammo in your first picture.. it appears as though some of the bullets are crimped from the outside of the neck?? Or is that just me?

[leebuilder]

I was wondering about some of the ammo in your first picture.. it appears as though some of the bullets are crimped from the outside of the neck?? Or is that just me?

It's not you that is how it was made. Some Russian ammo looks like a center punch was used 3 or 4 times around the neck.

[Combat Diver]

I was wondering about some of the ammo in your first picture.. it appears as though some of the bullets are crimped from the outside of the neck?? Or is that just me?

Yes, there is a crimp half way down the neck.

CD

[EMC45]

I was wondering about some of the ammo in your first picture.. it appears as though some of the bullets are crimped from the outside of the neck?? Or is that just me?

"Stab crimp"

[Outpost75]

Outpost 75 I bought some of this ammo from a dealer in 1989...always looking at gun showes for more. I tried hand loading for it but never could get it to shoot as good as this ammo. Just wondering all these years why this ammo was so good?...

I bought a big load of that ammo about the same time you did. The reason it shot so well was because the bullets were assembled using new production dies instead of old worn out ones, and the jackets were also of very good quality because they used the same draw stock as for the 7.62mm M118 Match, but doing the final form and base closure to the MkVII profile. The WC846 Ball powder used permitted more uniform charges, the military M34 primer is well balanced for the .303 loading, being intended for 7.62mm ammo, and the Black Lucas mouth sealant not only waterproofs the round, but promotes more uniform bullet pull and actually serves as a bullet lubricant to reduce metal fouling. The Greek HXP ammunition made in the 1970s is constructed similarly and is every bit as good.

Accurate .303 handloads which approximate the ballistics of MkVIIz ammunition can be assembled with 40 grains of either 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget with the .312" diameter Sierra 174-grain MatchKing, or the similar Hornady match bullet. For hunting use substitute either the Hornady 174-grain softpoint, or the Speer 180-grain HotCor in the .312" diameter.

[Bigslug]

Fascinating to me that you're mostly finding mid-'30's to early '40's stuff, and from multiple production sources. There's certainly a story to be told there, if there's anyone left living who could tell it.

[woodbutcher]

:D Most interesting thread Sir.Thank you for posting.Looks like a lot of interesting weapons around that area.Thanks for your service.God bless and keep you safe.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Jniedbalski]

Thanks for the info. It is really good to know why it was so accurate. I always wondered all these years why. I have used hodgen’s blc2 and got decent results.but it’s been a long time ago . I first starting loading this round in the early 90’s with my lee loader on the kitchen table. I would load 20 rounds and go out the back door shoot them at my target at 100 and 150 yards . When all where shot I would go back inside and load 20 more and shoot again. It was a great way to spend a Saturday.

[Peregrine]

Neat stuff, thanks for sharing.
I'm wondering what sort of a posting you have have that allows you to play with this stuff though.

[Outpost75]

Neat stuff, thanks for sharing.
I'm wondering what sort of a posting you have have that allows you to play with this stuff though.

Not sure where OP is currently, but back in the day 11th MI Co. at Aberdeen Proving Ground was detailed to the Combat Systems Test Activity to evaluate foreign equipment for the number brunchers.

[Combat Diver]

Neat stuff, thanks for sharing.
I'm wondering what sort of a posting you have have that allows you to play with this stuff though.

Retired Special Forces and working for SOCOM now as a armorer/instructor down range.

CD

[Combat Diver]

Group photo of the best of the 8 .303 rifles on hand. Finally understanding British martial rifles.
Top-Down
SMLE Enfield made in 1914
No. 1 Mk III GRI (Pakistan) made in 1945. SMLE was renamed to No. 1 Mk III in 1926.
Pattern 14 made by Remington in 1916. Renamed the No. 3 rifle in 1926. (The missing No. 2 was a .22LR training rifle)
No. 4 Mk I made by Long Branch in Canada in 1944
No. 5 Mk I dated 1949 by production was only 44-47'. This is a Khyber Pass gun.

238676

CD

[Steppenwolf]

If anyone wants one of the Enfield cleaning funnels a place called John Denner in Canada sells them.

[Markopolo]

That khyber pass gun sure looks interesting. Looks like copper wire from a motor winding around the stock. Stock is so dark it looks almost synthetic. I like the shorter overall profile of the later production guns, never shot one though. Have you shot all of these guns? How does that Khyber Pass gun shoot?

[Combat Diver]

That khyber pass gun sure looks interesting. Looks like copper wire from a motor winding around the stock. Stock is so dark it looks almost synthetic. I like the shorter overall profile of the later production guns, never shot one though. Have you shot all of these guns? How does that Khyber Pass gun shoot?

KH guns are individuals. Some work well, others have issues ie bolt sticking, bolt head popping up and release out of receiver when pulled back, striker issues. Groups at 25 m with unknown ammo or ammo dating from WWI/WWII 3-4".

CD

[Markopolo]

Nice and compact though.. handy to carry if you can find a good one. Do you guys have to destroy those weapons?

[Combat Diver]

Nice and compact though.. handy to carry if you can find a good one. Do you guys have to destroy those weapons?

Weapons will either get demilled or turned over to ANA when we leave. Demilled ones can go home with the units as war trophies.

CD

[Markopolo]

What does De-Milled mean???

[Outpost75]

What does De-Milled mean???

De-Militarized

[Markopolo]

You mean that a soldier can bring home a captured weapon from Afghanistan??? They sure wouldn’t let us do that back in the 1970’s... although lots of folks tried and some even successfully. [smilie=1:

[Omega]

No, a General Order was put out that no individuals can bring back any weapons. Our unit brought back a few captured weapons but they had to be "given" to the museum which reissued them back to us for display. They said they could not be demilled, but they kept the firing pins, and every now and then they come to inventory them.

[Combat Diver]

Demilling requires lots of paperwork that goes up to Star Fleet command, barrels plugged and breech welded after paperwork comes back. Goes home and hangs in the unit and placed on property books.

CD

[Markopolo]

Lol.. I like that “Star fleet command”.. that de-milling thing just sucks.. might as well put them in a pit, and blow them up with other captured ordinance.... but I bet a guy could get some cool parts...

Thanks CD, for the looks at what your doing over there, and your service. Your posts are always interesting and I look forward to them. Please keep it up. Prayers sent for your safety! You do get to play with some cool toys though. After checking your in country years, you must be doing something you enjoy, and are making a difference.

Marko

[Combat Diver]

Took couple young soldiers to the range today for a history lesson. Took three rifles SMLE III (Enfield, 1914), P14* (Remington, 1917) and a No.4 MkI* (Longbranch,1944)
239621
Out of 12 rounds, 6 had sterile head stamps other 6 had this pattern around it.
239622
Out of those 6, 3 were misfires and struck 2 more times for no ignition. Pulled the bullets and powder was the old stick cordite.
239623


CD

[PAT303]

Combat Diver, I'd love one of those sterile cases for my collection, any chance we could organise something?.

[Combat Diver]

Combat Diver, I'd love one of those sterile cases for my collection, any chance we could organise something?.

Only way I can legally send it out is to demill it ie punch primer, drill out and drill a hole in the side of the case with lots of paperwork. Assinine for a piece of brass.

CD

[Markopolo]

I have never seen stick cordite before... very cool. Is it always brown like that? Or is it the age? Stiff like a uncooked spaghetti noodle??? When you place a single stick down and add flame, does it burn poof, the same as normal powder? It must be fast I am sure in order to fire..

[Combat Diver]

I have never seen stick cordite before... very cool. Is it always brown like that? Or is it the age? Stiff like a uncooked spaghetti noodle??? When you place a single stick down and add flame, does it burn poof, the same as normal powder? It must be fast I am sure in order to fire..
@Markopolo

Sorry for the late reply. Here is a strand of cordite burning.


https://youtu.be/k3TiVfCN9eM


CD

[Markopolo]

wow... no where near as fast as I would have expected..

[tbx-4]

I've been told that if you put about 3-4 cordite loads in a tight pile on the ground and light it that is burns slow at first then whoosh! Hot and fast! Supposed to burn faster then most modern granular powders... At least that's what I've been told...

[Combat Diver]

I've been told that if you put about 3-4 cordite loads in a tight pile on the ground and light it that is burns slow at first then whoosh! Hot and fast! Supposed to burn faster then most modern granular powders... At least that's what I've been told...

Here's 4 strands of that same cordite stacked.


https://youtu.be/EeUJYbTzmeQ

CD

[KCSO]

Just had an ammo can of S/A 1944 Pretoria come into the shop today. All kapok and cordite and all so far clean and 100% shooters.

[Markopolo]

wow... that really is slow.. my first batch of homade Black Powder looked like flash powder compared to that. does it burn differently inside a case???? it must, as it would take forever to aquite enough pressure to launch... is it just old?? or is this somebodys home made version?? i am just having a time understanding how this stuff could launch anything... other then a marshmellow.

[Combat Diver]

wow... that really is slow.. my first batch of homade Black Powder looked like flash powder compared to that. does it burn differently inside a case???? it must, as it would take forever to aquite enough pressure to launch... is it just old?? or is this somebodys home made version?? i am just having a time understanding how this stuff could launch anything... other then a marshmellow.

Cordite came out of a dud case/bad primer. Rest of the rounds fired without issue.


CD

[KCSO]

That is why the case was formed around the powder to compress it enough to get a good burn and to get enough in the case.

[Springfield]

Most smokeless powders burn relatively slow when out in the open compared to Black powder. I always burn my mistake powder, more fun than dumping it in the garden like some suggest.