80% lower legal questions

[rancher1913]

I have plans to do a few for myself and wondered about doing some for friends. what are the rules concerning doing 80% for others. I know if you sell them you are breaking the law but what about giving them away or doing theirs for them. I dont want to get sideways with the atf but would also like to recoup a little of the jig outlay. I would think renting out the jig and router would be legal but I dont like loaning/renting my tools. how many finished "ghost" lowers can a person have before he gets in trouble, I would think its like drugs and if you have X amount they think you are dealing. just doing some investigation so I stay on the right side of the law.

[lefty o]

dont do them for others.

[Omega]

I have plans to do a few for myself and wondered about doing some for friends. what are the rules concerning doing 80% for others. I know if you sell them you are breaking the law but what about giving them away or doing theirs for them. I dont want to get sideways with the atf but would also like to recoup a little of the jig outlay. I would think renting out the jig and router would be legal but I dont like loaning/renting my tools. how many finished "ghost" lowers can a person have before he gets in trouble, I would think its like drugs and if you have X amount they think you are dealing. just doing some investigation so I stay on the right side of the law.There is no limit to the number you can have, but Federal Law says you can't sell them commercially. Also, you may not do them for others, or lend them your equipment. But, if you get tired of your lowers, you can sell them, but check state laws, some make you give them a serial number. If you get tired of too many, then that's when you can come under a microscope.

[FLINTNFIRE]

My understanding is on loaning the problem was the cnc mill and the fact the person is not doing it on their own , as for jigs I see no issue and as for renting then there may be a issue , and a business is not allowed to let you use their machine , So machine what you want sell the jig and router to someone else and let them do their own at their house . Do not do them for others and make as many for yourself as you want .

[Petrol & Powder]

1. The fact that you've posted this question on an internet forum has pretty much destroyed any plausible argument that you didn't at least consider selling completed receivers.

2. I don't know how you can, "...... recoup a little of the jig outlay" without making some money.

My advice is to make the ones you want for yourself and abandon any idea of manufacturing receivers for others unless you want to obtain the necessary licenses.

[rancher1913]

thanks omega and flintnfire, so if i understand what your saying, even renting the jig is considered against the law. I know you can serial number them and sell them following your state laws but at what point do you become a manufacture and have to pay all the fees.

P&P, anybody can consider an illegal activity, its only acting on the activity that breaks the law. thats why I am trying to understand the do's and don'ts before I ever do anything, its not worth risking everything I own to make 50 bucks. also if you reread my op second statement I clearly stated that I knew selling them was against the law and had no plans to do that.

[Petrol & Powder]

thanks omega and flintnfire, so if i understand what your saying, even renting the jig is considered against the law. I know you can serial number them and sell them following your state laws but at what point do you become a manufacture and have to pay all the fees.

P&P, anybody can consider an illegal activity, its only acting on the activity that breaks the law. thats why I am trying to understand the do's and don'ts before I ever do anything, its not worth risking everything I own to make 50 bucks. also if you reread my op second statement I clearly stated that I knew selling them was against the law and had no plans to do that.


I read your post and your phrase "would also like to recoup a little of the jig outlay" seems to imply that you were at least exploring ways to offset the cost of the jig.

[rancher1913]

I am exploring ways to offset the cost of the jig, but I only want to do so if it is legal and since I am not well versed on atf rules I figured to ask the collective mind here because there are several members that live and breath atf rules.

[WILCO]

I have plans to do a few for myself and wondered about doing some for friends. what are the rules concerning doing 80% for others. I know if you sell them you are breaking the law but what about giving them away or doing theirs for them. I dont want to get sideways with the atf but would also like to recoup a little of the jig outlay. I would think renting out the jig and router would be legal but I dont like loaning/renting my tools. how many finished "ghost" lowers can a person have before he gets in trouble, I would think its like drugs and if you have X amount they think you are dealing. just doing some investigation so I stay on the right side of the law.

:groner:

[WILCO]

I am exploring ways to offset the cost of the jig, but I only want to do so if it is legal and since I am not well versed on atf rules I figured to ask the collective mind here because there are several members that live and breath atf rules.

The world of 80% lowers is for those who can eat the cost of start up.
If money is an issue, then stick to 100% lowers.
The cost of being afoul of the law, is much more than the cost of getting started.
Lastly, consult an Attorney who specializes in firearm related law. Tread lightly even then.
Seeking legal advice on the internet is like booking tickets on the Titanic.

[Omega]

thanks omega and flintnfire, so if i understand what your saying, even renting the jig is considered against the law. I know you can serial number them and sell them following your state laws but at what point do you become a manufacture and have to pay all the fees.

P&P, anybody can consider an illegal activity, its only acting on the activity that breaks the law. thats why I am trying to understand the do's and don'ts before I ever do anything, its not worth risking everything I own to make 50 bucks. also if you reread my op second statement I clearly stated that I knew selling them was against the law and had no plans to do that.You become a manufacturer the minute you intend to make one for sale. With the ATF, intent is what can get you in trouble. There is no law in trying to save money, or trying to recoup your money. One way is to buy what you need, router, jig, mills, etc, then sell them when you are done. You can sell them to a friend, who can use them to make his, but loaning and renting could be trouble. The whole rule about lending tools was due to a bunch doing build parties, and companies renting their cnc mills out.

[rancher1913]

thanks omega, thats the kind of info I was looking for.

guess I could have made it a poll, huh wilco :p

[sparky45]

One word replies such as, but not limited to GROAN, aren't very helpful. Rancher, I live next door in KS and an individual can do the milling of 80% lowers and I considered doing the same myself. But I'd have to serial number them and record such in a binder for inspection by local gendarme, same as if you made a can. I decided to simply buy a $40 Anderson lower and avoid any potential "incident" with the "gestapo".

[FLINTNFIRE]

I can buy a fully finished cheaper most of the time , but that is not the reason anyone buys 80% lowers , and doing some of the work is still fun . I think that having blanks and 80% is just a way to put away something for the rain that is coming sooner or later , get a little experience putting together the whole unit , learn it and learn how to check it and fix it . Then when or if you need to , you are not asking someone else how or whats the issue , learning how to do something for ones self may not be for everyone , but I still get more enjoyment from doing something for myself , cutting wood , building , wiring , plumbing , concrete , even casting and loading , there are to many who have no sense of a job well done and able to do for yourself. May come a day when all would wish to have the jigs and the 80% lowers with spare parts put up . Any way Merry Christmas and may the coming year find us not facing all the restrictions that the liberal fruits want the law abiding to deal with and suffer under.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup you can buy one already done for 50 bucks. makes about as much sense to me as buying a forge to make a tie rod end for your truck. What do you save in the big picture? Maybe 10 or 15 bucks.

[jeepyj]

I can buy a fully finished cheaper most of the time , but that is not the reason anyone buys 80% lowers , and doing some of the work is still fun . I think that having blanks and 80% is just a way to put away something for the rain that is coming sooner or later , get a little experience putting together the whole unit , learn it and learn how to check it and fix it . Then when or if you need to , you are not asking someone else how or whats the issue , learning how to do something for ones self may not be for everyone , but I still get more enjoyment from doing something for myself , cutting wood , building , wiring , plumbing , concrete , even casting and loading , there are to many who have no sense of a job well done and able to do for yourself. May come a day when all would wish to have the jigs and the 80% lowers with spare parts put up . Any way Merry Christmas and may the coming year find us not facing all the restrictions that the liberal fruits want the law abiding to deal with and suffer under.

I think FLINTNFIRE explains how I feel about many of my hobbies. It's the enjoyment of every part of a hobby that gives some of us a sense of accomplishment.

[rancher1913]

flintnfire pretty much nailed it with why but I will add to the why try and make money, when you live in the sticks and only have what you own to get by, a person is always on the prowl for making some extra money from whatever you have. do I need to make money off my new jig, no it was paid for basically in cash, but if I could make a few bucks here or there it would pay for a new saw chain that could make me enough in firewood sales to buy a new tractor tire.

[Tackleberry41]

Odd how with the glut on the market a 100% lower is now actually cheaper than an unfinished one. For a single lower a jig really jacks up the cost, but I have cut several with mine, keep thinking of selling, it, but then use it again.

For the OP, buy the jig, use it, then sell it to the next guy.

[Petrol & Powder]

yup you can buy one already done for 50 bucks. makes about as much sense to me as buying a forge to make a tie rod end for your truck. What do you save in the big picture? Maybe 10 or 15 bucks.

Except that a tie rod end doesn't have a serial number and you don't need to fill out a 4473 form to transfer a tie rod end........

80% receivers aren't about money or even the enjoyment of making them; they are about creating a receiver (and ultimately an entire firearm) that the government doesn't know about.

Let's be honest - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a receiver. I have no problem with people who can lawfully possess a firearm from making a firearm but it isn't done because it's cheaper.

[rl69]

Nether is reloading or casting dosen't mean it's done for sinister reasons

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here's a novel idea! Call ATF and chat with them. When I was a dealer/gunsmith I did it upon a number of occasions and always found them to be easy to talk to. Nothing bad ever happened to me as a result. Same thing works for questions about almost anything else in the gun world. Question about an item? Phone the manufacturer. :D

[Petrol & Powder]

I didn't say the reasons are sinister or even unlawful.

But ask yourself this: "If an 80% receiver had a serial number and required a 4473 form to transfer, how many people would buy them and complete them - just for the pleasure of doing that work"?

The primary reason that the concept of an 80% receiver even exists is to create a modern firearm outside of the regulatory requirements of the 1968 GCA. There are millions of guns in circulation that were made before the 1968 GCA and many of those lack serial numbers. There's nothing inherently nefarious or sinister about an 80% receiver but let's not kid ourselves as to why they exist.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A relative of mine made one shortly after they appeared on the market. After he admired it for awhile and thought about how "stealth" he was being, he gave it a customized serial number of his initials and 001. His reasoning was that if it was stolen and subsequently recovered he couldn't get it back, because there was nothing to differentiate it from 10,000 others like it. Me, I'm the kind of a guy that would enjoy buying one and making it just for the enjoyment of doing the work, but since I'm not into AR-15s at all I haven't done so. But I'm really tempted by the 80% 1911s.......:grin:
But I just don't need another one!

[Handloader109]

I've made two. Just to say I did it. Both now have serial numbers in case my heirs decide to sell them. But once finished with them, either store your jig for later, or sell it. I've saved mine just in case. Btw, cost of jig is part of cost of making lowers. Saving or recouping money shouldn't be part of the equation.
Don't make any for your supposed friends. They will talk. And potential for issue with feds or local is high.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[rl69]

I didn't say the reasons are sinister or even unlawful.

But ask yourself this: "If an 80% receiver had a serial number and required a 4473 form to transfer, how many people would buy them and complete them - just for the pleasure of doing that work"?

The primary reason that the concept of an 80% receiver even exists is to create a modern firearm outside of the regulatory requirements of the 1968 GCA. There are millions of guns in circulation that were made before the 1968 GCA and many of those lack serial numbers. There's nothing inherently nefarious or sinister about an 80% receiver but let's not kid ourselves as to why they exist.

The only reason I would have one is to build my own the reason I reload,cast,forg,ext all the people I know would only have one so they could say they built their own.the people I know who want to hide in the shadows with what they have,only buy threw private sales.

I guess living in a state without registration gives you a diferent look on things ?

[DDriller]

I have several unfinished ones. I bought them to do if I got tired of casing bullets. I figure another year and I might get caught up with my casting, unless I buy more molds lol. Then maybe I'll break out the lowers.

[Boomsticks Firearms]

I have plans to do a few for myself and wondered about doing some for friends. what are the rules concerning doing 80% for others. I know if you sell them you are breaking the law but what about giving them away or doing theirs for them. I dont want to get sideways with the atf but would also like to recoup a little of the jig outlay. I would think renting out the jig and router would be legal but I dont like loaning/renting my tools. how many finished "ghost" lowers can a person have before he gets in trouble, I would think its like drugs and if you have X amount they think you are dealing. just doing some investigation so I stay on the right side of the law.

This answer is very simple DO NOT DO IT!! You can not make a receiver for anyone but your self. The moment you make a receiver for someone else you are acting as a manufacture and you will have to have a Manufacture FFL license. If you do it and get caught you can get 10 years or more in prison lose all your equipment and all of your guns and be fined for hundreds of thousands of dollars for each one you make. So DO NOT DO IT!

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but kill someone because that tie rod broke and see whats left of your life. Shoot a home invader with your home built ar15 and see how long your tied up in court and how much money it cost to defend yourself. Im not to conserned with the government knowing I have an ar15. Its completely legal. If your real conserned then just go buy a used one of someone else. Any paper work trail would end at him unless is been made into a handgun.

Now if they cost 300 bucks and I could make them for 50 id be all over it myself. cost of bullets is why I started making my own. but if I could find already made bullets cast the way I want them and at the same quality level I make them for the same price as buying lead I wouldn't have joined this forum 15 years ago. If someone would for the price of components load all my ammo I wouldn't buy a press either. I do it to shoot cheap. Id rather shoot then cast and load. I cast and load so I can afford to shoot.

No brainer to me. If I have to buy a 100 dollars in tools and two 80 percent lowers for 30 bucks a piece and have a 130 bucks into those lowers and some tools collecting dust and waste hours of time I could be shooting when I could go and buy two already done lowers for 50 bucks I know which way makes sense to me. Selling them? If theres even one iota of chance it may not be legal im not your huckleberry that's going to test the waters. Ive got a family to take care of and making 10 bucks off a lower isn't going to make the difference in whether they eat or not. If it did im sure I could find another way to earn that 10 bucks in probably less time then it takes to do the machine work.

OH OH OH the goverments going to break down my door and take all my legally purchased guns. Good luck with that. they wasted 40 years trying to enforce pot laws and theres just as much or more of it out there as it was when I was a kid. To go door to door and take all your guns away would break this country. that's even if we all stood there with a smile and gave them to them. Good luck with that. They absolutely know they cant disarm America. Not in my lifetime. they will just continue to waste our money doing buy backs and going after inconsequential things like bump stocks to appease the liberals and let them think there making headway.

Bottom line is if they had a chance to stop the ownership of ar15s ect its long past. Theres millions of them out there. When I die there will be millions of them still out there not matter what stupid laws are passed. If you want to build one because its fun then do it. But don't think your pulling the wool over anyones eyes. Im sure theres a record somewhere that you bought that bare lower and if the government really wants it they will get it. Heck theres some here so naïve that they claim right here on this fourm that there there building them. Now that's some real stealth you got going on. I don't think it would take much for someone in the batf to get a log in name here and be at your door tommarow.
Except that a tie rod end doesn't have a serial number and you don't need to fill out a 4473 form to transfer a tie rod end........

80% receivers aren't about money or even the enjoyment of making them; they are about creating a receiver (and ultimately an entire firearm) that the government doesn't know about.

Let's be honest - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a receiver. I have no problem with people who can lawfully possess a firearm from making a firearm but it isn't done because it's cheaper.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not sure where you're going with that Lloyd, I was agreeing with you that it is cheaper and easier to buy a complete lower (which is a firearm and requires a 4473 to transfer).

The entire concept of an 80% receiver is that it is not a firearm at that point according to ATF.

If you can legally possess a firearm and want to build an AR-15 starting with an 80% receiver - have at it ! But don't claim you did it because it's cheaper than buying a completed receiver (it's generally not once you include the cost of jigs and time). Just be honest and say you wanted to build a modern firearm that has no paper trail.

I'm with Lloyd, If I want to assemble an AR-15 from parts I'm just going to buy a complete receiver because it's cheaper and far less work.
If you want to build one from an 80% receiver, that's awesome. That's another way to accomplish that same task.

There's a youtube video of a guy that melts down beer cans, pours the aluminum into a homemade mold and then machines the resulting casting into a completed receiver. Now he has a lot of machine tools and a lot of skill but it is a great project.

This all got started because someone asked what's the difference between a block of aluminum and a receiver? BATF said the block of aluminum wasn't completed enough to be a receiver and then someone asked the obvious follow-up question : "At what point does it become a completed receiver"? The answer from ATF was more than 80% complete and we all know what happened next.

[HATCH]

I agree with both Lloyd and P&P.

Lloyd's point was that if you were to use a "ghost" gun to defend yourself you could potentially be tied up in court (CIVIL most likely) for a long time.
He, like myself see no reason to spend the effort and extra money to purchase a 80% lower, the jig to convert it over, and the time just to say I built this.
I have seen aluminum lowers go as cheap as $35. These are COMPLETELY machined lowers.
Why is it that 80% lowers cost more then complete lowers?

I have built many of AR and AK rifles for that matter.
Here is SC there is no paperwork for FTF transactions.
So once it gets past the guy that bought it new its done.

As far as the ATF coming to get your weapons, I had two ATF agents in my garage a decade or so back. Had to do with the fact I purchased 68 "firearms" in 18 months.
Had a long chat with the lead agent and he informed me that there isn't enough agents or other LEO for that matter to come collect up firearms.
And there would be no point unless you did a complete communication blackout because once you hit the first house, you would be wasting your time beyond the 2nd or 3rd because the weapons would be "gone".

IMHO, 80% lowers are for three types of people.
(1) The guy that just really wants to say I built it

(2) The guy that is really paranoid that the GOV is gonna come collect guns so he wants something "off the books" - in reality, the GOV will get the business records of the 80% lower and Jig makers so it will not matter unless you machine it 100% from a block of metal. They have used this technique for other items. Heck DirectTV did civil lawsuits against people who just purchased the hack tools to hack them even if no effort was made or proven.

(3) The guy that legally can't own the weapon. Either lives in a area that they are restricted or banned, or is a felon.


I am not saying that everyone that builds a 80% lower falls into those three types, I am saying thats my OPINION.
So if by chance you were insulted because I said my opinion then I am sorry.

[jmort]

I have some educated insight into the legal use of force issue. No, you will not get "tied up in court" if you were lawfully defending yourself. There are 50 states with differing laws, but if you legally possess a firearm, and lawfully use it in self-defense, then you will not get tied up in court simply because you lawfully used a legal firearm in self-defense.
Otherwise, if someone wants to do something that is legal, then do it. Most hobbies are diseconomic. Why buy a Mercedes-Benz AMG G 63 when you can get a Jeep? Money or the economics are not the issue. For me, I have no use for 80% anything firearm. Just my preference. As to comments on the O/P's stated purpose, at this point I think everyone, OP included, thinks it is way foolish.

[Tazman1602]

Fun to machine out but NOT cheaper than a completed receiver. BUT the INSTANT you sell one without being 4473'd and serialized you are a FELON.

Just say "NO"........

Art

[Petrol & Powder]

Hatch I agree with your 3 categories and think the vast majority fall into the #2 category.

I live in a state with laws similar to South Carolina and once the firearm leaves the last FFL in the distribution chain, there's no more record keeping on the government's part.

Frankly if I really wanted to build an "off the books" AR (and I don't ), I would just go to a gun show and pay cash for a 80% receiver and a jig. However, I see no reason to go through all of that trouble.

[Boomsticks Firearms]

Well the main question was could he make one for a friend and the legal answer is no. Yes you can make all you want for yourself but as soon as you make one for someone else with out a manufacturing FFL license you just committed a felony. I am a FFL license Dealer and I read upon the laws to keep up to date because they can change at anytime during the year.

[Omega]

While I agree that the many do want one "off the books", at least when they first came out. Back then ARs where over $800 for the lower end ones, so besides the lack of a SN, they were quite inexpensive comparatively. But let's not kid ourselves, if anyone of us really wanted one "off the books", a private sale would be the way to go. Also, look at BP guns and rifles, you can mail order them to most free places, yet multitudes buy kits to assemble their own. Me, it's just about me trying it out to see how it would come out, like a puzzle, ship in a bottle; it's the "I made this" factor which intrigues me.

[Boomsticks Firearms]

Being able to build something like car, house, a gun is a great feeling and to stand back and look at it and enjoy the things that you created is a wonderful thing. It’s nice to be able to tell someone else I built that and one day it will be pasted on to a love one like your kids and your kids kids and they can tell them my grandpa made that.

[dkf]

I don't have a problem helping family and friends machine them on my equipment. But I don't take any money or compensation to do it. Doing it that way there is no way anyone can say I am "in the business". I agree that 80% lowers (well aluminum ones any way) are more expensive than most finished lowers. Especially if you do them right and send them off for anodizing after machining. However costs can add up quick depending what an FFL charges for transfer on a complete lower.


Fun to machine out but NOT cheaper than a completed receiver. BUT the INSTANT you sell one without being 4473'd and serialized you are a FELON.

Just say "NO"........

Art

Not correct. It depends a lot on what your state laws are. Selling for example an AR rifle made with an 80% lower is legal in my state. Since no background check is required for a rifle when selling to a resident here no 4473 is needed. Verified by lawyers specializing in firearms in the state I reside. Just don't be making and selling say 10 or 20 per year, regularly. If you do that the ATF could make the argument that you are "in the business" of manufacturing. For a rifle or two every couple years, no. The SN requirements are for licensed manufacturers on their finished receivers or guns. No requirement for me or you to serialize an 80% when finished. But it is not a bad idea to put something on it for identification purposes however.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I live in a state now that is going to register any semi auto as they have for pistols , and there are no legal sales between individuals unless they go through a licensed dealer , now they are already beating the drums on next law they are proposing magazine restrictions , and it will not stop there.

I do think there are going to be more and more legal to own who will choose to make these , it is the slow chipping away that will take our rights , and you may be old enough where it does not happen in your life span and I have to wonder how many then will wish they had a little extra stashed away .

As to spending time in court is this the old use your reloads verse factory ammo? I think the main reason he asked has been answered and I also understand his line of thought on it , now let us not argue or become divided on the main thing that brings us all here , which I feel is the enjoyment of our firearms and our hobbies that are part of it , One tree many branches comes to mind , To all a happy new year .

[rl69]

[QUOTE=dkf;4533990]I don't have a problem helping family and friends machine them on my equipment. But I don't take any money or compensation to do it. Doing it that way there is no way anyone can say I am "in the business". I agree that 80% lowers (well aluminum ones any way) are more expensive than most finished lowers. Especially if you do them right and send them off for anodizing after machining. However costs can add up quick depending what an FFL charges for transfer on a complete lower.



Not correct. It depends a lot on what your state laws are. Selling for example an AR rifle made with an 80% lower is legal in my state. Since no background check is required for a rifle when selling to a resident here no 4473 is needed. Verified by lawyers specializing in firearms in the state I reside. Just don't be making and selling say 10 or 20 per year, regularly. If you do that the ATF could make the argument that you are "in the business" of manufacturing. For a rifle or two every couple years, no. The SN requirements are for licensed manufacturers on their finished receivers or guns. No requirement for me or you to serialize an 80% when finished. But it is not a bad idea to put something on it for identification purposes however.[/QUOTE/]

Be carful here in Texas I can leagely sell any firearm I own face to face. If I sell a firearm I made I become a manufacturer. also if I had a class 3 I couldn't sell it

[dkf]

Be carful here in Texas I can leagely sell any firearm I own face to face. If I sell a firearm I made I become a manufacturer. also if I had a class 3 I couldn't sell it

This is the meaning to key termed as described in the definition of "manufacturer" as per ATF.

As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business”
is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing
firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distri
bution of the firearms manufactured.”

[rancher1913]

sorry this has devolved like this, I was not interested in being told "dont do it" I was interested in what was legal and what was not. I have no nefarious reasons for building these, just simply wanted a firmer understanding of the laws from a layman view point as I do not decipher leagleze and knew there were members that fully understood the rules and hopefully could explain them better. there has only been a handful of posts that even addressed the question, the rest are just rants and opinions, I thank the posters that took the time to answer the questions seriously and mods you can close this before it makes it to the pit if you so choose.

[jmort]

I thought it was a useful and interesting thread. There is, as a general matter, thread drift in many/most threads.

[Char-Gar]

sorry this has devolved like this, I was not interested in being told "dont do it" I was interested in what was legal and what was not. I have no nefarious reasons for building these, just simply wanted a firmer understanding of the laws from a layman view point as I do not decipher leagleze and knew there were members that fully understood the rules and hopefully could explain them better. there has only been a handful of posts that even addressed the question, the rest are just rants and opinions, I thank the posters that took the time to answer the questions seriously and mods you can close this before it makes it to the pit if you so choose.

I see no devolving at all. You got the answers you requested. I get it, that some folks, just on principal, don't like being told not to do something, but really, you asked for it.

I have not briefed the law on this question and really have no desire to do so. "Studying the law is like eating sawdust without butter"...Justice Holmes. I don't look up laws for fun and only do it when I get payed to do so. But my educated guess is "Don't do it", you are on very thin ice. Just ask the folks who thought that Bump Stocks was an easy way around the law. First time, somebody shoots up a school or large gathering with one of these ghost rifle, it will be all over. The ATF can change their regs in the blink of an eye.

[Lloyd Smale]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.

[Lloyd Smale]

I say buy few more that have serial numbers so the government knows how hard it will be to confiscate 10 million of them. If its legal for me to own one why would I care if the government knows I have one. I WANT them to know that its my constitutional RIGHT to buy as many of them as I want. I want idiots like Obama to know that every time he puts pressure on gun owners sales go through the roof and even more of them are in the hands of law abiding citizens. I served and fought for my constitutional right to own one. Im sure not slinking around in the dark trying to hide it.
Except that a tie rod end doesn't have a serial number and you don't need to fill out a 4473 form to transfer a tie rod end........

80% receivers aren't about money or even the enjoyment of making them; they are about creating a receiver (and ultimately an entire firearm) that the government doesn't know about.

Let's be honest - it's easier and cheaper to just buy a receiver. I have no problem with people who can lawfully possess a firearm from making a firearm but it isn't done because it's cheaper.

[Petrol & Powder]

Perhaps I should have put the first line of my post in purple to show a bit of sarcasm.

I'm not worried about the paper trail but other people are and that is what drives the sales of 80% lowers.

I agree with your analogy of buying a sewing machine and denim to make a pair of jeans that you can buy for far less money.

Lloyd, once again - I AM AGREEING WITH YOU.

[Mr_Sheesh]

It's purple, not pink, that we use for humor about here. And it's not always sarcasm, I'm more of a facetious humor person, myself.

Or you could use <sarcasm> comment </sarcasm> or the like if not using Purple, I guess :)

[Petrol & Powder]

Thanks, Got the color wrong, fixed it

[Char-Gar]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.

Agreed

[redneck1]

Let's clear up some confusion about the jig itself ... don't believe me when I say this , call the Batf and find out for your self .

First off the batf doesn't give a rat's hind end about a jig it's not a fire arm or a firearm part . Very simple !
You can loan it , sell it , rent it , lease it do what ever in the heck you want with it . It's a jig not a fire arm .
The only thing that matters to the batf is that you aren't illegally manufacturing firearms with it .
If you rent it to a friend and they use it to Do a reciever it's perfectly legal ... they are doing the work .
There aren't any if's ands or but's about it . The only thing the batf cares about is who completed the firearm

[Omega]

just ordered two more bare lowers from psa yesterday. 95 dollars shipped. About the cost of two pairs of jeans today. Im not buying a sewing machine and some denim and making them either. Maybe if ars cost a grand but today you can put one together cheaper then a ruger American or savage axis. I guess im not going to start swadging my own 223 brass either when I can buy it for less then a 100 bucks a thousand. If you think the procecuter isn't going to bring up the fact that you used a home built non serial number gun to kill someone in your home then ive got this bridge for sale. Might as well fit it with a bump stock while your at it. Dump a full mag on them. Im sure its legal (at least for now) and how could it be used against you in court??? youd best hope you have a very conservative jury.In that case, where's this bridge you speak of? I get tired of hearing this BS repeated over and over. This argument has been around for years, tweaked to demonize one thing or another; deadly hollowpoints, reloads for SD, home made weapons...if it is a good shoot, it's a good shoot, period. Prosecutors, if you are charged, can and probably will throw as many charges on you as he can. But which case has ever used one of these arguments? The closest one I can recall, is that LEO which had an AR dust cover with a “you’re ******,”’ on it, the prosecutor tried to use it but was ultimately ruled inadmissible.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/03/robert-farago/cops-ar-15-dust-cover-inscription-used-against-him-in-court/

I fully agree that today, there is no practical reason for an 80% lower, but I've read many of you doing projects for nothing more than to do it, I see no difference, this is the United States after all, the only reason we should need is because we want to.

[elmacgyver0]

Most 80% lowers that get sold are never built.
It is a little more difficult to do than portrayed.
If you are not into machine tools, good luck.

[redneck1]

There's nothing complicated about an ar lower with a decent jig and a good router .
No machine tools required a good jig is darn close to fool proof for anyone handy with tools .

[6.5 CM]

Wanna bet that by now NSA has passed all the info on the OP over to ATF ?

We'll be reading about him as a "domestic terrorist". :kidding:

[turtlezx]

so when your done building it cant ever sell it?????????????
what good is that what happens when you die??

[redneck1]

It is perfectly legal to sell a gun you have built , what is illegal is to build them with the intent to sell .

And contrary to popular belief , there is no federal requirements to have a serial number .

[Lloyd Smale]

yup its a free country and a bump stock according to anyone that has a high school level education and reads the laws will say is totally within the law too. Now take your bump stock to the range next week and fire away. Its not me going to jail or having to argue with the feds in court. Sure you might not end up in jail because you defended your home with a home made gun that fits the letter of the law but id bet you a dime to a dollar that your lawyer is going to make a few thousand extra bucks defending you because most work by the hour and if you think a prosecutor isn't going to try to use that or some judge in a liberal state like CA or NY will instantly throw it out and isn't going to listen then I have ____ _____! As it is even with a registered gun people spend weeks in court justifying legally defending there home. Its why some people even buy insurance for ccw carrying just in case they have to defend themselves on the street and then in court. Yup nobody has gone to jail for using a handload but ill bet you a dime to a dollar it cost them a few more bucks to fight and probably more then the 10 dollar difference in price between an 80 percent lower and a 50 dollar boughten one. Im a bullet caster and shoot 99 percent cast bullets but my self defense guns are loaded with factory ammo. For the 20 bucks a box costs it isn't worth to me my choice in ammo even being mentioned if I end up in court.
In that case, where's this bridge you speak of? I get tired of hearing this BS repeated over and over. This argument has been around for years, tweaked to demonize one thing or another; deadly hollowpoints, reloads for SD, home made weapons...if it is a good shoot, it's a good shoot, period. Prosecutors, if you are charged, can and probably will throw as many charges on you as he can. But which case has ever used one of these arguments? The closest one I can recall, is that LEO which had an AR dust cover with a “you’re f*****,”’ on it, the prosecutor tried to use it but was ultimately ruled inadmissible.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/03/robert-farago/cops-ar-15-dust-cover-inscription-used-against-him-in-court/

I fully agree that today, there is no practical reason for an 80% lower, but I've read many of you doing projects for nothing more than to do it, I see no difference, this is the United States after all, the only reason we should need is because we want to.

[Omega]

yup its a free country and a bump stock according to anyone that has a high school level education and reads the laws will say is totally within the law too. Now take your bump stock to the range next week and fire away. Its not me going to jail or having to argue with the feds in court. Sure you might not end up in jail because you defended your home with a home made gun that fits the letter of the law but id bet you a dime to a dollar that your lawyer is going to make a few thousand extra bucks defending you because most work by the hour and if you think a prosecutor isn't going to try to use that or some judge in a liberal state like CA or NY will instantly throw it out and isn't going to listen then I have ____ _____! As it is even with a registered gun people spend weeks in court justifying legally defending there home. Its why some people even buy insurance for ccw carrying just in case they have to defend themselves on the street and then in court. Yup nobody has gone to jail for using a handload but ill bet you a dime to a dollar it cost them a few more bucks to fight and probably more then the 10 dollar difference in price between an 80 percent lower and a 50 dollar boughten one. Im a bullet caster and shoot 99 percent cast bullets but my self defense guns are loaded with factory ammo. For the 20 bucks a box costs it isn't worth to me my choice in ammo even being mentioned if I end up in court.

Well, never lived in a communist state, so can't speak of what they may or not do. But every SD case I've read so far, with possibly a few exceptions, it always ends with "home owner not expected to be charged". The has been at least one, in which the home owner "baited" his garage, and another in which home owner shot through the front door, and yet another on the porch...etc. But those are questionable shootings, and IMO, should be investigated further. Again, except for the LEO I mentioned, I've never heard of anyone's reloads, or weapon come into question. The quantity of shots, yes, but never the type.
As to the bump stock, I never seen the practical use of one, or full auto, but I thing the ATF is wrong on this one. The 80%s, well it looks like they will have their day in court as well, as some states have begun trying to outlaw them, with the Dem Feds sure to follow.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well lets drop the % down to 60% heck why stop there no building a firearm yourself at all , reasonable restrictions , magazine limitations , it is only those assault weapons after all it is not my shotgun or hunting rifle , Well remember when they were railing against snub nose pistols , sniper rifles , do not for a minute think that because it is store bought you are in a better spot or less likely to be taken to court the agenda is to take all the weapons away from the free as no law yet has stopped a criminal from doing a crime .
I think the original question has been answered and now it is just differing opinions on what we should be allowed to own build or possess , I myself see the reason to buy them , does not mean they have to be built and it does not mean they are any different then any manufactured ones of any brand , it is my right to do as I please as long as I do not break the law.
If someone else does not want one then do not buy one , but the choice should be up to each individual , there are some very talented people on here who build their own different firearms and reloading tools , who create and craft and personalize and to each their own , As to the coming year I expect more laws and attacks on our constitutional rights .

[WILCO]

guess I could have made it a poll, huh wilco :p

Dude, that would have been epic!

[Conditor22]

A problem with asking a question about law/legality on a nationwide forum is each state has its own laws beyond federal law.

What I've seen many times on this and other forums is that people either don't read or fully understand what the OP is saying or asking before posting a response
makes you wonder how they've survived reloading or building firearms

Does anyone have references/links to legal material that says whether the OP can loan/rent/sell his 80% lower jig?
Without references/links, everything is hearsay and opinion. Unless you know and trust the poster completely I would trust the info as much as I trust forum posted load data.... both are just referance points that need to be researched with published data before accepting/applying.