Rolling Block 50-90

[bullshot]

Ok guys, looking for a little help. Found a custom roller in 50-90. Rebarreled with a who knows 34 in octagon barrel about 1 1/16 across the flats, a beautiful curley maple stock set, shotgun butt, a who knows Soule long range rear and a Lyman 17A front. Looks like a 43 Spanish size receiver maybe #5. What I don't know is exactly what the receiver is. It has been polished bright. No markings on the tang, serial number on the bottom tang. 50-90 is a pretty stout cartridge. My concerns are to try to find if the receiver is Black Powder or smokeless. I don't know if that size receiver was ever made smokeless. I know only black should be used but I like to use smokeless. I have had good luck with WC872 and WC860 in 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps and 40-65 Cimerron High Wall. Pressure ranges will still be about the same as black. Any thoughts? If the wood didn't yank my chain so hard I would prolly let it pass but I can't get it out of my mind. You guys know how that is.[smilie=w:

[Nueces]

Sounds like a neat rifle.

Is the firing pin a small-diameter smokeless one or a fat black powder one?

If small, I think you could start with 5744 powder. Typically (according to Accurate Arms and Ross Seyfried), a black powder equivalent load is 40%, in grains, of the original black powder load. So, for a bp load of 90 grains, you'd try 36 grains of 5744 (appropriate bullet of course). This formulation works a treat in my 45-70s.

The powder leaves a lot of stuff in the barrel at this pressure level, but we still get into 1 moa at 100 meters without wiping all the time. The fouling is easy to sweep out with a patch.

For all looking for CB loading data and ideas, take a look at https://www.loaddata.com/
which is a searchable compilation of all data published in Rifle and Handloader mags. It costs a yearly fee for detailed access, but your first session will turn up a mountain of good data. It's also updated regularly. And it really beats hand searching a pile of paper magazines.

Mark

[bullshot]

Mark
I just looked at one in 43 Spanish and one in 7X57. The 50-90 looks like the 7X57. I suppose the block could have been replaced. Maybe I'm reading more into this than is necessary.

[Buckshot]

...............bullshot, Remington only made one size action for smokless centerfire and it is basically the #1 BP action, or put another way, the BP #1 is the same as the smokless action in (mostly) all dimentions. So far as I know, ALL the smokless actions had round reciever tops. Octagonal or more accurately 3 flatted or maybe 'Tri-agonal' recievers were made only as BP sporters.

Also, some BP #1's with round reciever rings can be thicker on some models then others. The .43 Egyptians, or those I've seen have a thinner ring then an 1879 Argentine, or the later smokless versions.

You can't really date a RB action very closely. They did not come serial numbered from the factory, and any numbers you see are either factory assembly numbers or added by someone else afterwards. You may 'Kind of' date actions by the patent dates on the tang, and the extractor type. They'll get you to an era, or maybe a decade.

The 1897 Smokless actions had a left side mounted 'Old BP Type' slidding extractor, with a regular upright thumbpiece on the breechblock. The 1902's had a rotary extractor and the thumbpiece of the breechblock sticks out to the right. The Smokless sporters (#5) had an upright thumbpiece and rotary extractor.

The first check to make on an old RB is to close the breechblock then let the hammer down against it. Then try pulling back on the breechblock thumbpiece. Look from the side of the action for daylight between the breechface and the face of the breechblock. Pull hard :-)

There are 3 places for tolerance stacking to take place in RB's. The pins in the action walls, the hammer and breechblock on their pins, and the bearing shoulder of the hammer and the underside of the breechblock. As the breechblock tilts away from the breechface, this can allow cases to stretch unevenly. More at the top then the bottom. A few thousandths isn't a problem.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the strength with the 50-90. The shank walls of a modern barrel is probably stronger by itself then a BP barrel and BP action ring together.

.................Buckshot

[bullshot]

Buckshot, Neuces
Thanks for all the info. You have convinced me that the receiver is prolly a smokeless. I ill keep the pressures at black or lower. I couldn't resist this thing. I'm a sucker for stand out wood. Now off to find dies and brass. Hope it shoots as well as it looks.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj148/bullshot_photo/IMG_5128.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj148/bullshot_photo/IMG_5129.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj148/bullshot_photo/IMG_5130.jpg

[missionary5155]

Looks like a SHOOTER to me... I have 4 RB´s up there 2-.43s and 2- 45-70s.. If it has the small firing pin then have at it. For a proof round I would stuff a case full of 2f with the heaviest boolit I have and let her go. That will tell you alot about the chamber and how it really "locks the block" to the case head. And your body will let you know if you really NEED more power. Then just start out with NON-BLACK... I assume you slugged the bore... A custom barrel may not be standard...

[Bullshop]

One little thingy about using cartridges much longer than 45/70 is they dont quite make a straight entry into the chamber without the rim hitting the hammer. If its not already done you may have to bob the hammer just a bit.
BIC/BS

[Doc Highwall]

Nice piece of wood Bullshot.

[StrawHat]

That is one of the great things about two piece stocks, you can get incredible wood for them.

You did good.

[EDK]

Go to www.buffaloarms.com for dies, etc. One stop shopping AND the owner(Dave Gullo) is a 50/90 fan.

I got the BELL brass for my SHILOH 50/90 there, but they carry STARLINE now.

LYMAN dies have worked well for me, but I also bought a set of bushing type neck sizer dies from MEACHAM TOOL & HARDWARE. RCBS introduced their LEGACY dies for 50/90 (and reduced the price!) but I have no experience with them.

I formerly used LYMAN 515142, then a BROOKS 620 grain flat nose and am now starting loads with a KALYNUIK paper patch boolit. I am using GOEX CARTRIDGE black powder...you'll need some wads for over powder...use .060 vegetable fiber available pre-cut from Buffalo Arms.

Go to shilohrifle.com/forums....lots of general information and specifics on the BIG 50. LONE STAR RIFLE makes 50 rolling blocks...they might have additional info for you there.

BTW Nice looking rifle. Those long barrelled single shots sure look elegant.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[MtGun44]

Wow, that is a beautiful rifle!

Got a bunch of RBs myself, they are addictive.

Bill

[McLintock]

Looking at your original question, I think your Roller is an original black powder #1 action. The Smokeless #5, either the 1897 or 1902, has a lot larger breach area for the much larger barrel shank of the 7MM barrel. Why Remington figured it needed the much larger shank, I don't know, but that's the way they built it. Many of the gunsmiths cut off the shank of the 7MM barrel and used it for a bushing so they can use smaller shanked barrels for either lighter weight or whatever. You need a really large diameter barrel, at least in the shank area, in order to put it in a #5 action with no bushing.
If you compare your rifles breach area with the 1902 #5 action in my post on the second page of posts in this forum, "Finally got my Roller done" you can see the difference in sizes. My barrel is about the same as yours, but look at the breach overhang around the barrel, and it's been square brigded. My barrel is threaded for the action, with no bushing. If I remember right, the shank size on the #5 is either just over or just under and inch. For comparison a Winchester Hi Wall or Browning Hi Wall is under .700". Also, it's common parctice to either bush the firing pin and put in the smaller tipped smokeless one or as you mentioned, replace the breachblock with the later one. Don't know nuttin' else as I'm Roller knowledge deficient myself.
McLintock

[bart55]

Wow what a beautiul rifle I have two rollers one a 50 70 carbine and another a spanish reformado, I am thinking about doing something with the spanard ,as the reformado really uses up brass fast even when I anneal . any suggestions

[bullshot]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Missionary5155--Rifle does have small firing pin. Must have had a new block as it is not bushed. Yes I did slug the bore 500.5 bore and 509.5 groove.

Bullshop--- No ammo to check hammer clearance. Soon my friend soon.

EDK-- I guess I'm going to go with the RCBS Legacy dies. Always had good luck with RCBS.

McLintock--- I have a Roller in 43 Spanish and one in 7X57 and I see the difference in the receiver and barrel shank. This rifle looks like the 43 Spanish. The new barrel is 1.250 across the flats. I was concerned about a black powder action and shooting smokeless but like Buckshot stated the new barrel is prolly stronger than the black powder barrel, receiver assembly. Also I see no sign of a barrel bushing being used with the new barrel.

I needed this like a hole in the head but I'm a sucker for other than plain wood. The price was right and I put enough fingerprints on it, figured I better take it home.
I cast for 50-70 Gov't -- Lyman 514141 so I have something to try. Just waiting on the dies and brass.

Another question --The Soule sight has it's elevation adjustment inside the vertical bars of the staff instead of a knob at the top and threaded rod down to the movable piece. Any ideas as to manufacturer?

Thanks again for all the info and comments.

[calaloo]

Bullshot:
Your tang sight is probably sold by Parts Unlimited. It is made in the Ukrane and is a very good sight. I believe it is patterned after one for a Sharps Borchardt.

Bill

[waksupi]

Bullshot:
Your tang sight is probably sold by Parts Unlimited. It is made in the Ukrane and is a very good sight. I believe it is patterned after one for a Sharps Borchardt.

Bill


Parts Unknown

[calaloo]

waksupi:

Thanks! Sometimes the old brain just doesn't work right.

Bill

[JSnover]

So far as I know, ALL the smokless actions had round reciever tops. Octagonal or more accurately 3 flatted or maybe 'Tri-agonal' recievers were made only as BP sporters.

Also, some BP #1's with round reciever rings can be thicker on some models then others. The .43 Egyptians, or those I've seen have a thinner ring then an 1879 Argentine, or the later smokless versions.

You can't really date a RB action very closely. They did not come serial numbered from the factory, and any numbers you see are either factory assembly numbers or added by someone else afterwards. You may 'Kind of' date actions by the patent dates on the tang, and the extractor type. They'll get you to an era, or maybe a decade.

The 1897 Smokless actions had a left side mounted 'Old BP Type' slidding extractor, with a regular upright thumbpiece on the breechblock. The 1902's had a rotary extractor and the thumbpiece of the breechblock sticks out to the right. The Smokless sporters (#5) had an upright thumbpiece and rotary extractor.

.................Buckshot

You are the man! I don't know how many books I've read in the past year and not been able to get that much info. Looks like mine may have been a parts gun; round reciever with rotary extractor, aftermarket barrel, offset thumb piece and a fat firing pin. It won't matter soon enough. I'm shipping it to Lone Star to be worked over. Thanks for clearing a few things up, anyway.