45-70 bullet recommendation

[barnabus]

im currently shooting a RCBS 535 postal bullet in my Sharps with no luck in accuracy. Can you recommend a mid weight bullet non gas check bullet that would work well for paper punching out to 3-500 yards using smokeless powder.

[NSB]

barnabus, if you're looking for a bullet to use to see if your can has the potential to shoot good groups, try the Oregon Trail 405g .459 diameter bullet. They make that bullet in both .458 and .459 diameter. It shoots well out of my guns out to a couple hundred yards but is not a true long range bullet. However, you'll find out how well your gun shoots with it. Try using 4198, Rel 7, 5744, and 2400 powders. All will shoot very good groups out of my guns with loads pushing the bullets along at a leisurely 1400-1500 fps(approx).

[barnabus]

barnabus, if you're looking for a bullet to use to see if your can has the potential to shoot good groups, try the Oregon Trail 405g .459 diameter bullet. They make that bullet in both .458 and .459 diameter. It shoots well out of my guns out to a couple hundred yards but is not a true long range bullet. However, you'll find out how well your gun shoots with it. Try using 4198, Rel 7, 5744, and 2400 powders. All will shoot very good groups out of my guns with loads pushing the bullets along at a leisurely 1400-1500 fps(approx).

im using 5744 and it just dont shoot consistently at all. lots of folks said 5744 was the go to powder but i dont see it. when u say the oregon is not a long range bullet how far is it good for accuracy wise?

[Bent Ramrod]

Under 400 yards, the Ideal 457124 is the one to start with. The Army spent more than the home experimenter (or an army of them, for that matter) ever could in developing it, and as a go-to first approximation, it, cast from everything from pure lead to Linotype, has shot acceptably well in all my .45-70s. Some of the more exotic designs will do incrementally better, particularly as the wind and range increases, but are more finicky about loading, sizing, alloy used, and so forth.

Over 400 yards, the Ideal 457125 will give the same reliable performance. Postells were designed to maintain target accuracy in Trapdoors heavily fouled by black powder. That skinny nose might be working against you with smokeless.

It may be that your rifle just doesn’t “like” 5744. I never found it quite as good as 4759 when I tried it in a bunch of rifles. I found 13 gr or so of Unique behind the 457124 was surprisingly accurate out to 200 yards, and, even though slow, the boolit landed with a certain authority.

[Don McDowell]

What rifle are you shooting the RCBS bullet in. What alloy are you casting the bullet from. What is your powder charge?

[barnabus]

What rifle are you shooting the RCBS bullet in. What alloy are you casting the bullet from. What is your powder charge?

Pedersoli rifle and 20-1 alloy and 26 grains of 5744 with RCBS 535 grain Postel.ive also tried wheel weights and lino Don what velocity range should i be looking for? 26 grains seems would put me around 1250 i believe.

[NSB]

im using 5744 and it just dont shoot consistently at all. lots of folks said 5744 was the go to powder but i dont see it. when u say the oregon is not a long range bullet how far is it good for accuracy wise?

I have gotten the Oregon Trail bullets to shoot five shots just over an inch at 100 yds most of the time, and a couple of times I've gotten them to shoot just under. I've gotten a few groups at 200 yards to group around three inches. To be honest, I haven't shot it much at that distance. A friend of mine shoots his Pedersoli with these bullets and I've sat with him and shot at an 18"x18" steel plate hanging on a chain at 250 yards and you never miss with his gun and load. I realize that's not a very specific statement, but most of the hits were pretty well centered in about a six inch group. He brought it to a large three gun shoot I was at one time and let everyone shoot it as a fun side event. I bet I saw fifty people shoot it that day and the hit percentage was probably 95% off the bench. Many of the shooters had never shot a Sharps type rifle in their life and got instantly hooked shooting his. The owner claimed he could hit that gong just about every shot at 400 yards off the bench. That statement came to a quick halt when a civil war reenactment groups pulled a seventeen pound cannon to the line and hit the gong with their first shot. That was the most amazing shot of the day. That gong probably went fifty yards and was bent like the letter U after the hit. They then proceeded to shoot a three shot clover leaf group with that cannon at 250 yards. Kind of makes you want a cannon for long range shooting :p

[Baja_Traveler]

Cast what you got soft and use black powder as was intended for that rifle, and I can guarantee you will get better results.

[one-eyed fat man]

...Kind of makes you want a cannon for long range shooting :p

Used to shoot three round clover leaf groups pretty routinely at 1200 meters back in the day.

232324

[Don McDowell]

Pedersoli rifle and 20-1 alloy and 26 grains of 5744 with RCBS 535 grain Postel.ive also tried wheel weights and lino Don what velocity range should i be looking for? 26 grains seems would put me around 1250 i believe.

20-1 is a good alloy with that bullet. 26 grains is a bit heavy for the powder charge, drop it back to 21-22 grains.
Also if the bullet is dropping smaller than .459 it may not shoot well in that rifle. Those pedersoli's usually show a preference for 460 or a bit larger diameter.

[725]

460-420 always works best for me. 415 grains with my alloy.

[big bore 99]

Try paper patch?

[country gent]

I shoot several heavy weight 45 bullets in my pedersoli. the 457125 lyman 510 grn round nose, The Lyman 535 grn postel and a 550 grn silhouette by Bernie Rowels at Old West moulds, All ae cast from 20-1 Nd lubed with either SPG, or emmerts. I shoot BP loads in the 1150-1250 fps range. A,, my mould are "adjusted" to drop a .460-.461 dia bullet.

The lyman 510 RN is a nose riding design you want the driving bands to run at .460-.461 and the nose around .448-.449 to be a good fit in the bore. My mould originally dropped at .458 DB and .445 ND. I lapped it up to .4605 DB and .448 ND shoots much better now. On this bullet you need to pay attention to both dias and when right its a shooter

The 535 Postell is a very good bullet a little higher Ballistic coeffient than the 510 too. It has a short bore riding section ahead of the front driving band also. Again my mould new dropped at .457 and the short nose riding portion was .448. On this mould I converted it to nose pour. It now has a small flat on the nose about .150 dia. I lapped the driving bands up to .460 dia

The 550 silhouette is just how Bernie made it. It drops .460 base and .448 nose a brass mould 2 cavity and runs great.

When loading pay attention to the details and make evert thing the same. Im normally around .010 off the rifling with these 3 bullets. Another thing to watch is seating tension of the bullets in the case. To much and a couple tings can happen 1) bullet is swaged down undersized by the case mouth / neck. 2) heavy seating force can distort the nose of the bullet swelling or bending it. Measure a sized and expanded cases ID then your bullet .0005-.001 is plenty in the single shots. You don't need a lot of tension since there's no recoil acting on rounds. enough to keep it together handling is fine. I also don't crimp my loads just roll the bell out flat.

[barnabus]

20-1 is a good alloy with that bullet. 26 grains is a bit heavy for the powder charge, drop it back to 21-22 grains.
Also if the bullet is dropping smaller than .459 it may not shoot well in that rifle. Those pedersoli's usually show a preference for 460 or a bit larger diameter.

ok ill load up some at 21-22 grains. The Lyman manual has a starting load of 23 grain at around 1050 FPS with a max of 28. is that ok to be below? Also will that still make it to a 500-1000 range target if by chance it shoots? lol My bullet is dropping at .4595 It seems I would have to get a custom mold made if I wanted to be able to size anything thing bigger.I wish these mold mfg would have them drop 3-4 over but it seems they just wont.

[NSB]

My Pedersoli's all shot .459" bullets. Pedersoli barrels are step tapered and get a bit smaller towards the muzzle anyway (you can verify that with a bit of research). If you bullets are truly .4595" they will shoot with the right powder, lube, and alloy. Shooting any of the bullets at 1050fps or less won't make a very good 1,000 yard rifle. These things drop like a mortar to begin with. Simply do a check at handloads.com ballistic calculator. You'll really get to use all of your long range sight on that one.

[Don McDowell]

ok ill load up some at 22-22 grains. The Lyman manual has a starting load of 23 grain at around 1050 FPS with a max of 28. is that ok to be below? Also will that still make it to a 500-1000 range target if by chance it shoots? lol My bullet is dropping at .4595 It seems I would have to get a custom mold made if I wanted to be able to size anything thing bigger.I wish these mold mfg would have them drop 3-4 over but it seems they just wont.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the velocity from the Lyman manual. I would have to go look back in my loading data, but the 5744 load I shot that bullet with was as I recall 22 grains. It shot to the exact same velocity as 70 grs. of 2f Goex.
The problem isn't with the mould or the makers, it's the generous chambers Pedersoli puts in their rifles. They themselves even developed a bullet and marketed the mould for a time, that dropped a bullet at .462 for use in their sharps.
That RCBS bullet shoots well to 800 yards, but due to the 3 lube grooves, I believe causes it to not do real well beyond 800 from the 45-70. But it's a fantastic bullet for silhouette it really hammers the rams at 500 meters.

[barnabus]

My Pedersoli's all shot .459" bullets. Pedersoli barrels are step tapered and get a bit smaller towards the muzzle anyway (you can verify that with a bit of research). If you bullets are truly .4595" they will shoot with the right powder, lube, and alloy. Shooting any of the bullets at 1050fps or less won't make a very good 1,000 yard rifle. These things drop like a mortar to begin with. Simply do a check at handloads.com ballistic calculator. You'll really get to use all of your long range sight on that one.

what load did you shoot in your Pedersolis?

[Harter66]

The 458193 worked well in a Marlin from sub to 1900 in WW . You might get something out of that .

[shutinlead]

Barnabus,
What Don is saying coincides with what I've found. The RCBS with three grooves seems to lack something much past 800. I've experimented with lubes and been moderately successful using some of my own combinations on this bullet (more beeswax, less vaseline, couple extra ingredients...) You could try a grease cookie and wax paper under your bullet? YUK!
I have a couple Pedersoli's - one's a Sharps, one's a roller, both seem to prefer unsized, pan lubed bullets. (Wayne M. 'Texas Mac' has a well described method for pan lubing on his website) The bores both slug a little on the large size .460 and .459 respectively. My experience with the 20:1 is it works well to 600 then I think nose slump may be prevalent??? I lean just short of 16:1 for 1000 and 1200. The bullet I cast and shoot in these isn't readily available as it's a NEI 485g postel but it's a 4 groove that Walt cut for me when he was alive, and he cut the grooves a tiny bit larger and deeper. It drops a bullet at .4595 consistently. My powder charge is 22.7g of 5744, no cards, no wads, and they like Fed LR primers, seat the bullet to just touch the lands.
I don't shoot these rifles much any more- I have that disease... I build a new rifle regularly and rarely seem to shoot the same one two seasons in a row... I use these two as my loaners to get new shooters hooked on the sport, my loads are simple and easy to keep up with, if the shooter is good enough they bang away on the 1000 yd gong all day, they don't quite keep the bullets in the x-ring at a 1000 but staying on paper usually isn't much of a problem.
I've attached a data sheet of this combination in the roller, it's from a LabRadar. I forgot to change the bullet weight input as we were experimenting with several rifles that day so the energy calculations are erroneous but the velocities are correct to 100 yds.
My 2 cents.
Greg232348

My attachment specified a BRC choked barrel, it was not! the pedersoli's are both original barrels...

[Don McDowell]

Greg don't feel bad about changing rifles regularly, I'm quilty of the same thing.
Matter of fact the gunsmith is hand delivering my new (and second) 44-90 st tomorrow.. Got to rush to get it ready for Phoenix. :)

[shutinlead]

Don,
I get razzed about it a lot but I'm thinking because I really don't care about winning any of these matches, (somebody needs to finish last?) I need to build a cart that will carry about 5 guns and set each one up for a different distance, I don't golf but isn't that how golf works? one for each condition or situation? I don't make it to enough shoots in a year to try them all so...
My latest for next season is the 44-85 I've been working on and it's close - extractor cut and just a little more wood work - but then there's the 38-56 I started last month...
Greg

[Don McDowell]

Greg we'll have to compare notes on those 44's. OE 1 1/2 really shines in the ones I have.