Lubing Heel Bullets on 32 S&W For BP Use

[GBertolet]

I am new into the BP cartridge arena. I have a Forehand Arms 32 S&W breaktop revolver. It has a straight through bored cylinder @ .335 and a .314 bore. Due to this feature, the gun will take 32 S&W longs also, as the cylinder is plenty long enough. Suprisingly, the 32 S&W, shoots more accurately. The revolver leads like crazy with the standard lead bullets due to gas cutting. I have aquired a 90gr heeled bullet mold, with 2 thin .335 driving bands with an exposed grease groove. The driving bands seal the cylinder, and swage down easily to .314 in the forcing cone, and solved the leading issues. I have tried smokeless powder loads, with limited success, and now I am experimenting with a Goex 3F BP 6.0 gr load. I tumble lubed in LLA, which works fine for smokeless, but insufficient for BP.

For the BP, I had been smearing BP lube in the grease groove at the range, before loading the revolver. It's really messy. Is there a better way to lube the bullets in advance, after they have been reloaded, that's not so messy? I was sort of thinking of pan lubing. I could stand the loaded cases bullets down in the melted lube.

I am only getting 430 fps from the BP loading using the 32 S&W cases, but it shoots much more accurate than the smokeless loadings I have tried. Ironicly the 32 S&W long with 11 gr of BP, shoots only 35 fps faster than the 32 S&W with 6 gr of BP.

[Reverend Al]

I recently bought an Old West mould for a heeled .44 bullet to use in my Ballard .44 rimfire / percussion dual ignition rifle and I'm planning to try a coat of LLA to start with and see what happens ...

[GBertolet]

I have an Accurate and an Old West mold for the 32, plus an Old West crimper. I shot a little with just the LLA, with no noticable fouling. I wonder what several cylinders full with just LLA, will do to the barrel fouling wise? Being revolvers are "breach loaders", the fouling won't affect the loading, but what will it do to accuracy? What did the people in the old west do with their 44-40s and 45 Long Colts to prevent fouling? Was their bullet lube special? These are some of the questions that I am looking for answers for.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

If the boolit noses are flat you can try standing them on the nose and pan lubing them. I’ve also seen guys dip loaded rounds up to the crimp groove in warm lube. Not exactly mess free but would beat smearing lube on individually. You could also lube the chambers after loading the gun like some cap and ball shooters do. Either way be sure to use a lube made out of natural ingredients like beeswax and olive oil, no synthetics with black powder.


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[2ndAmendmentNut]

What did the people in the old west do with their 44-40s and 45 Long Colts to prevent fouling? Was their bullet lube special? These are some of the questions that I am looking for answers for.

I’m sure they experienced fouling too after long strings of shooting, but from what I have read the black powder in those days was much higher quality than the stuff commercially available now. Also natural lubes and pure lead (or almost pure lead alloy) goes a long way towards keeping fouling soft.


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[Baja_Traveler]

When I load my black powder .22 heeled bullets, I just pan lube them in my regular BPCR lube - base down. When I push them out of the cake, the heels are clean. You might just give that a try to see if it works for you also...

232294

[MT Chambers]

Sizing/lubing on a Star will fill only the grooves you want and leave the heel clean.

[longbow]

From the lube thread for outside lubricated boolits:

The February 1943 issue of the American Rifleman (p.31) has an excellent article on bullet
lubrication.
Though nearly 60 years old, this article is still valuable.
Within it are two old-time recipes for bullet lubricant worth passing along. These are both
recipes used by factory ammo-makers long ago, in the 19th century and perhaps before that.
I have used the recipe for outside-lubricated bullets for some time. It is nearly identical
to SPG Lubricant.
I have used it in reloading the .32 Long Colt with outside lubricated bullets and it works
very well.
I also soak felt wads with it, for use between the ball and powder in my cap and ball
revolvers and it works great. The bore bears only a trace of fouling when such a greased
wad is used under the ball. Seat the greased felt wad firmly down on the powder, then go
back and seat the ball.
I've also used it to a limited extent for lubricating soft lead bullets in my .45-70 with
black powder loads, with success.
This outside-lubricated bullet lube was once used in .22 rimfires and center fires such as
the .32, .38 and .41 Long Colt.
It is still useful today.
I mix it in a quart Mason jar, set in a low pan of boiling water. The ingredients are
measured then added to the jar. I stir them with a disposable chopstick found at oriental
restaurants. When cool and set-up, tighten the lid on the lubricant and store it in a
cool, dry place.
This creates a medium-hard lubricant that really softens black powder fouling.

I have not used the inside-lubricated bullet lubricant but thought it might be of interest
for those who wish to duplicate the old-time loads, right down to the lubricant

OUTSIDE LUBRICATED BULLET LUBE
1 part paraffin (I use paraffin sticks found in the canning section of grocery stores).
1 part tallow (I use sheep tallow, sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax (Available as a toilet seal in hardware stores)

CENTER FIRE BULLET LUBRICANT
9 parts Japan Wax (available from Dixie Gun Works or some hardware stores in the furniture
refinishing area).
4-1/2 parts paraffin
4-1/2 parts beeswax

A few more things: I suggest you mix these outside to avoid friction with the Hausfrau.
And always use a double-boiler method, or set your jar in a heavy iron skillet and use a
low temperature to melt and mix the ingredients.
These lubricants will flash and catch on fire if subjected to higher temperatures, just
as any grease will.
Keep a box of Baking Soda handy, away from the stove (so you don't have to reach across
flames to get it) to extinguish any fire. Throwing water on the grease fire will only
spread it.

Enjoy these old bullet lubricants.

And if you want more:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?26524-Just-the-facts-Lube-recipes

lots to read!

Longbow

[GBertolet]

How do the lubricated over the powder felt wads perform in reducing fouling in revolvers? I see them advertised, but no serious critique on them. I just need a solution for 100-200 bullets at most. This revolver is not going to be shot enough to warrant a big time investment in bulk lube production, or additional equiptment. I just want to be able to go the the range a couple times a year and smell the black powder.

[9.3X62AL]

I am going to suggest something outside-the-box. This is inspired by the Nagant Model 1895 contraption/revolver reloading I have done.

Do a "Tale of the Tape" on your revolver's cylinder length. I suspect its length is shorter than a 327 Federal case. Trim the case(s) to fit the full length of that straight-through cylinder, right to the cylinder face. You now have the case mouth acting as a "throat" to guide a bullet of groove diameter into the barrel without the need for the .335" drive bands to be collapsed into the forcing cone so radically. Seat a soft lead bullet of some sort of .313" or thereabouts so that its nose is flush with the cylinder face. Use a small weight of smokeless powder appropriate for 32 S&W. I'll bet it works.

[GBertolet]

9.3X62AL, I bet you are right on this. The case length is 1.191 for the 32 Fed, and 1.068 for the 32 H&R according to Starline. I will measure the cylinder length in the AM, and see what I might have to work with. 32 wadcutters might work just fine in this setup.

[Bent Ramrod]

After the cartridges are made up, I melt a small amount of the black powder lube mix in the double boiler (2/3 tallow, 1/3 beeswax) and dip the boolits in the mixture up to the case mouth.

My heel boolits (.32 and .38 Long, and .310 Cadet) fit tightly enough in the cases so it would take a good shake to get them out, so no worries about the cartridge coming apart in the midst of this operation. I touch the ends of the boolits to the side of the pan to remove the droplet that forms on the noses, and the rounds go into the plastic box, boolit down, to cool and set.

Not a mass-production setup, but I only do 50 or 100 at a time, so once the lube is melted, it goes pretty quick.

[rmatchell]

Another option is to make a dip lube, but I have never used this recipe on black powder. I take a 1 quart jar and desolve a bottle off lee alox and a 1/4 pound block of parifin wax into naptha. When it dries it leave a hard coating the stays clean with my swaged hbwc and bullseye.


Use cheap Rubbermaid food container and add a handfull of bullets and a few cc of the lube then shake

[GBertolet]

9.3X62AL, I measured my cylinder length. It is 1.260, counting the rim of a case. The 327 Fed case, according to the specs, would be about .065 short of the end of the cylinder. I imagine the case loaded with a 32 wc bullet would work. The front of bullet would be in the forcing cone, before the back of the bullet exits the case. Alas, I don't want to have to buy a 100 new cases, and a hundred bullets, just to find out if this would work.

[vagrantviking]

I recently bought an Old West mould for a heeled .44 bullet to use in my Ballard .44 rimfire / percussion dual ignition rifle and I'm planning to try a coat of LLA to start with and see what happens ...

I find Alox based lubes preform pretty poorly with black powder and would suggest something like SPG. A homemade equivalent of beeswax and Crisco or olive oil etc. would also be a good bet.

The idea of using a full length case instead of a heeled bullet is very clever and I will have to follow this. It's a bugger ordering custom molds and figuring out a crimping tool.

[Chev. William]

Something I did not see in your write-up: is your 6 grains of GOEX 3fg BP propellant Loose in the .32 S&W case or is it Compressed?

Also, I have found 'Swiss' BP seems to burn 'cleaner' than 'GOEX'; but that is just my opinion.

Chev. William

[Wayne Smith]

I find Alox based lubes preform pretty poorly with black powder and would suggest something like SPG. A homemade equivalent of beeswax and Crisco or olive oil etc. would also be a good bet.

The idea of using a full length case instead of a heeled bullet is very clever and I will have to follow this. It's a bugger ordering custom molds and figuring out a crimping tool.

You obviously have not done business with Bernie at Old West Molds - he modifies the Lee die to crimp the heeled boolits.

[GBertolet]

Goex powder was all I could find locally. I have been loading 6 gr of 3F in my 32 S&W case, and it is compressed. I have gotten in as much as 6.5 gr, and still been able to seat the bullet. The gain was minimal, so I went back to the 6 gr charge. The bullet heel is only about .150 or so long, so it gives me a little extra space for powder.

The Old West 32 cal crimper really works nice. Bernie makes them for several old cartridges.

[uscra112]

I am going to suggest something outside-the-box. This is inspired by the Nagant Model 1895 contraption/revolver reloading I have done.

Do a "Tale of the Tape" on your revolver's cylinder length. I suspect its length is shorter than a 327 Federal case. Trim the case(s) to fit the full length of that straight-through cylinder, right to the cylinder face. You now have the case mouth acting as a "throat" to guide a bullet of groove diameter into the barrel without the need for the .335" drive bands to be collapsed into the forcing cone so radically. Seat a soft lead bullet of some sort of .313" or thereabouts so that its nose is flush with the cylinder face. Use a small weight of smokeless powder appropriate for 32 S&W. I'll bet it works.

That is a peculiar pistol. Unless the original cylinder has been reamed out for some unknown reason, it must have been intended for some "extra long" S&W cartridge. Which as far as I know doesn't exist, nor did it ever. 9.3's solution is the only thing that makes sense to me. Others have covered the lube subject adequately, so I won't.

I need not mention that Forehand revolvers in that period were never the Acme of strength.

[GBertolet]

Thanks for the responses. I had been advised that some manufactures at that time bored the cylinders straight through as a cost saving measure. Possibly they intended hollow base bullets to be used, expecting them to obturate to seal the cylinder off. The best I can tell, this relic was made between 1890 and 1902, so it was intended for black powder. I had considered trying Trail Boss powder instead of BP, since it's a low pressure smokeless powder, to save the messy lubrication and cleanup. I still may. I am still searching the internet to find more info on these revolvers.

[Good Cheer]

Reading with great interest.
Got an unfired Uberti 1849 up for sale on the interseine but I'm sure as heck thinking about putting a .32S&W cylinder in that rascal and having some bean can killing black powder fun in the front yard. Reckon that would mean disassembly and slugging the bore to make up my mind.

[John in PA]

You obviously have not done business with Bernie at Old West Molds - he modifies the Lee die to crimp the heeled boolits.

A very strong "second" on the heel bullet crimping tools made up by Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds. I liked the one he makes for .38 Colt so well I asked him about one for the 10.4 x 47R Italian Vetterli (1870). He'd never worked with it before. Cases based on reformed/trimmed .348 Winchester. I sent him a couple photos and some specs, and I had one in my hands in TWO DAYS. Worked perfectly. (Yeah, I DO like me some oddball stuff...) :roll:

[Grapeshot]

Try melting Paraffin wax and Crisco together, 60/40 mix, and dip your LOADED bullets into the melted lube over the grease grooves and set aside, The boolit will not get hot enough to cause the powder to ignite. It's been done with paper cartridges for C&B Revolvers and works well. You should get a hard shell of wax on the bullet and the grease grooves will be filled with lube.

[Exal]

Idk if this has been said since I read through everything very quickly, but have you thought about just adding a lube cookie under the bullet? Never messed with 32 S&W so don’t know if this is a bad idea or not but just an option.

[Wayne Smith]

Exal, if you loaded a lube cookie under the boolit there would be no room for the powder! If you are shooting Bullseye as I do maybe but he's using Black.

[GBertolet]

I am using black powder, 6 gr of 3F with a heeled bullet. Powder charge is compressed. There is an outside lube groove on the bullet, which I am trying to avoid having to smear lube on each round in the revolver, as I load it. it gets kind of messy while doing at the range.

What I have been able to learn, that melted SPG or equivalent, in a shallow metal container, with just enough lube depth to cover the driving band. Then stand the rounds, bullets down in the lube, maybe having a 3/8 mesh screen over top, to keep the rounds standing upright. Supposedly, after hardening, pull the rounds up, while twisting to free them from the hardened lube. How does that idea sound?

[barrabruce]

Maybe a rack like 22lr cases are held in.
Then place in tin and add melted lube to correct height.

I’ve tried dipping my loaded 310 cases in melted lube.
I ended up with more lube on the nose than in the lube groove if I had the bullet hot or a thick coating if a quick in and out dip was used.

I follow with interest.

I’m dip lubing standing upright then wiping the base to load over smokeless so the powder doesn’t stick to it.

[GBertolet]

I have an update on this adventure. I was able to locate a few 32 cal Speer HBWC bullets. No luck on the 327 federal or 32 H&R cases to try. I had some 32 S&W long cases. I did some measuring, and found that the nose of the 32 HBWC bullet was in the forcing cone of the barrel, before the base was out of the case. With a light charge of 231, I had no leading at all. This negated the bored through cylinder chamber issues. I read that some of the old BP loadings used HB bullets filled with grease, counting on obturation of the bullet to seal the cylinder. Success was achieved on the leading problem. I did have some light bullet tipping at 7 yards though. Still not as accurate as the BP loads with the heeled bullet. Maybe the bullet was not 100% straight going into the rifling. Maybe the longer cases would help accuracy wise, as there would be less freebore.

On another subject, I obtained a block of BP lube from White Label to try on my BP heeled bullets. I made a jig out of heavy gauge steel plate, and drilled a series of holes slightly larger than the cases. I inserted the loaded rounds, and placed the plate in a pan of melted lube. I only needed about 1/4" deep to cover the one grease groove. When the lube set up, I pulled up while twisting the rounds, and the plate scraped off the excess lube, leaving me with perfectly lubed rounds. Now off to the range.

[psweigle]

How do the lubricated over the powder felt wads perform in reducing fouling in revolvers? I see them advertised, but no serious critique on them. I just need a solution for 100-200 bullets at most. This revolver is not going to be shot enough to warrant a big time investment in bulk lube production, or additional equiptment. I just want to be able to go the the range a couple times a year and smell the black powder.

I woul just pan lube then.