I've never seen this before

[klw]

I shoot quite a few linotype bullets. This year I'm using SAECO #433, nice heavy bullet. A few weeks ago I found a loaded round this the top part of the bullet, all the bullet above the case mouth, missing. Couldn't find the top anywhere.

Last week I had maybe eight more. When the round goes into the crimp die the top is shearing off. Maybe two per hundred. The top part of the bullet is in the crimp die. Easy to find when you know where to look.

I've loaded well over 7000 of these things and have never seen this problem before, on this bullet or any other. All my bullets are weight segregrated. The most recent weight batch has this problem. I guess that there might be a fault right at this point in the bullet and the rather mild roll crimp is just cutting the top of the bullet off. Weird!

[MtGun44]

Linotype is actually pretty brittle. I would guess that your roll crimp is
putting enough stress into the brittle material to actually start a fracture
into the boolit. In cutting up my long bars of lino to mix in my pot, I
saw part way thru then hit it with a hammer and it fractures almost like
glass.

I would suggest that since linotype is very expensive and contains a lot
more alloying metals than is normally necessary for pistol loads that you
may want to cut it to at least 50/50 with pure lead. Likely to bring in a lot
more ductility plus lower the cost of your alloy, too.

Bill

[runfiverun]

i just drop my lino bars on a sharp edge to break them.
if you cut that lino in half you will still have boolits hard enough to go 2000+ fps.

[klw]

Linotype is actually pretty brittle. I would guess that your roll crimp is
putting enough stress into the brittle material to actually start a fracture
into the boolit. In cutting up my long bars of lino to mix in my pot, I
saw part way thru then hit it with a hammer and it fractures almost like
glass.

I would suggest that since linotype is very expensive and contains a lot
more alloying metals than is normally necessary for pistol loads that you
may want to cut it to at least 50/50 with pure lead. Likely to bring in a lot
more ductility plus lower the cost of your alloy, too.

Bill

These days linotype is substantially cheaper than pure lead. The only alloy that is cheaper than linotype at least where I buy it is wheelweights and it isn't much cheaper. In my experience wheelweights don't do well in 44 magnum loads so, for now at least, linotype is the cheap way to go.

[454PB]

I have a supply of monotype and linotype, and quite a bit of pure lead. Since I'm not into BP, I mix it 50/50 for a BHN of about 18 and use that for magnum handgun and high velocity rifle boolits. However, I'd be willing to trade the pure lead for linotype anytime!

In my area, pure lead is a lot easier to find than linotype.

[buck1]

WOW! Thats weird, a new one for me!...Buck

[Echo]

Are you sure it was linotype? I have gotten some stuff that was supposed to be lino-, and it was actually FOUNDRY type! About BHN 30+, and brittle like you won't believe! If you didn't receive it as actual type, that is, if it was already cast up into ingots, be suspicious!

[44man]

I wonder what happens to that hard stuff when it runs into the forcing cone???
My best mix for the .44, .475 and 45-70 is 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony, water dropped.
Plain water dropped WW's are not quite as accurate but it is close.
I get about BHN 22 and both are ductile, yet tough.
I would not shoot any animal with those brittle boolits.

[Ricochet]

I wonder what happens to that hard stuff when it runs into the forcing cone???
I've wondered the same thing, if very hard boolits might crack when they're sized down and rifling's swaged into them? Less likely to do that under compressive force than shear or tension, I'm sure, but who knows? There's some extrusion lengthening of the boolit when it's squeezed, and there's opportunity for internal cracking there, I'd think.

[montana_charlie]

There's an article on the LA Shooters site that explains how antimonal alloys get brittle if there is insufficient tin.
I've never used linotype. But, from reading discussions about it, it's pretty clear that by the time a printer decides to sell off a batch, it has been used so many times it's tin content has been noticeably depleted.

That sounds (to me) like a recipe for brittleness.
CM

[mike in co]

These days linotype is substantially cheaper than pure lead. The only alloy that is cheaper than linotype at least where I buy it is wheelweights and it isn't much cheaper. In my experience wheelweights don't do well in 44 magnum loads so, for now at least, linotype is the cheap way to go.

well excuse me.....me thinks a lot will disagree with that statement.

ww not doing well in a 44 mag ?

i shot 255's at 1340 with next to know leading and sub 3/4" groups......
they actually shot better than my lino/ww mix.
try dropping those ww cast boolits in water...nice and hard.

mike in co

[Blammer]

yea, WW's suck in a 44 magnum pistol

and here's proof, these stupid AC WW boolits are only going 1350 fps....

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_250gr3crimp19gr2400.jpg

[Blammer]

I think that your bullets are too hard and the crimp is fracturing the boolit and it's coming apart.

Just a guess on my part.

[bishopgrandpa]

Once again I will defend lino as I have a lot of real experience with it. There was a time when I had so much of it that it was the thing to use. I have shot deer and black bear and many times not recovered the bullet as it was a pass through. The ones I did recover were in one piece. I have shot them into sand banks and trees and once even against an old engine block. They shear and deform of course, but NEVER have I seen them shatter. I never thought they would until I read the magazines and forums such as this. Anything can happen but in the real world I doubt seriously many of you have seen it happen under usual hunting conditions. I have used literally thousands of them in my blackhawk during Big Bore night at the range and many in my Marlin and #1. I am 69 and have reloaded these things for over 40 years. I still have about 400#'s left and feel very comfortable using them. Thanks for listening to an old man rant and rave. By the way if you drop them to soon before they cool you will have a crack and can loose the top half on big bullets. This may be the problem.

[anachronism]

I have actually had this happen to me with 40 S&W & 45 ACP. What I believed to be linotype was most likely monotype or possibly an even harder alloy. It made beautiful bullets, as hard as the hinges on the gates of hell. When I tapercrimped them, they required a tough more effort. Most of them sheared off their noses at the taper crimp line during the loading cycle. Of course it was during an IPSC match. It turned out that when the bullets pop un in a pistol magazine, they do it with a certain exuberance. The bullet noses would sometimes jump out of the action at this point. If I was lucky, they'd fall on the floor. If not, they'd land back in the action, tying up the action. BUT!!!! they did not lead at all.

[Ricochet]

That's one way to make wadcutters.

[44mag1]

I got ahold of someones "cast" bullets when I was younger that came apart after firing. I couldnt hit a small target I was shooting at so I put up a big piece of paper out at 30 yards or so to see where I was hitting. What I got was more like a shotgun pattern of broken up pieces of lead. Not all of them would do this but most. I just figured whoever made them didnt know what they were doing. This was with a 44 mag with supposed 240 grain bullets.

[AZ-Stew]

By the way if you drop them to soon before they cool you will have a crack and can loose the top half on big bullets. This may be the problem.

When I was young and stupid, linotype was relatively cheap. I used to buy it in new ingots from a print shop. I should have used WW (probably could have gotten them for free then) to cut the lino and extend the alloying metals usefulness.

Anyway, I shot hundreds and hundreds of 358429, 410459 and 429421s cast from straight lino at magnum velocities and never had a failure of any kind. No leading and excellent accuracy. They definitely don't break up from impact with the forcing cone.

I think bishopgrandpa is onto something here. Lots of folks on this board tend to cast at very high temperatures. If the boolits aren't allowed to cool properly in the mould before dropping them, they can be damaged. With lino, it's not necessary to run an excesively hot pot or mould to get good fillout. It casts great boolits at under 600 degrees. Since lino is so hard, I can see why folks would want to cut the sprue before the casting becomes too hard because a lino sprue can be a tough piece to cut, but if the boolit isn't hard before leaving the mould, it could possibly be damaged upon impact with the catch box, even if it has a cushion.

It also sounds like your crimp die isn't sufficiently relieved above the crimp shoulder if it's retaining the boolit noses that have come off. You might want to take some measurements or do a Cerosafe cast of your die to find out what's going on.

Regards,

Stew