Federal Hulls

[dsh1106]

Quick Question for those who have been at this a long time,

I was looking for some 1 3/8 oz loads for my Federal "top gun" hunting hulls using some Longshot powder.
I found some load data on the Hodgdon site but they don't list anything the using the Plastic hunting hulls, only the FEDERAL GOLD METAL PLASTIC.

The load was:
Powder Primer WAD GRS Pressure Velocity
Hodgdon Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12F114 24.6 9,300 PSI 1,185
Hodgdon Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12F114 26.3 10,300 PSI 1,240
Hodgdon Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12F114 28.0 11,500 PSI 1,295

I've checked some of the Federal load data and it appears that the GM hulls generate a higher PSI with same or less powder compared to the hunting hulls, everything else being equal.


My question - For those who know more than I, if I stay at the low end of these loads, can I use them in my hunting hulls?

Thanks
Scott

[Ginsing]

The hunting hulls with paper base wads have less volume. The loads for gold medal hulls would need to be reduced or you would be over pressure.
How much to reduce? That's where it gets risky
Here is a good read on hull volumes
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/

[megasupermagnum]

You would be correct that the GM usually has higher pressures than the paper based top gun. I don't use Longshot powder anymore, but I do know you wont want a Winchester wad in a Federal hull with Longshot. There will be tons of powder migration. I'll check some manuals later and see if any listed might work for you. I will say the Federal top gun listed 1 3⁄8 oz load , Fed 209A, 12S4 wad, and 32 grains of Bluedot is a very good one.

[dsh1106]

MSM

Thanks for the insight, I thought about that , straight wall verses taper wall.
I have tried the 12s4 wad, and was hoping to find something with a little more payload space. The WAA12F114 has just a little more space.

I'm trying to fit twelve .320 diameter buckshot and a OS12 overshot card then roll crimp.

Scott

[tomme boy]

They are both straight wall. The hunting hull just has a 1/4" paper wad in the base.

[gpidaho]

MSM's load mentioned above is from the Federal web site for TopGun hulls and as he says it's a very good one. I like Longshot powder but I'm down to about 1/4lb. and I just picked up 5lbs. of BlueDot so I'm migrating in that direction. Gp Ps Sometimes when the .320s get tight in a load. I use .311s

[megasupermagnum]

Here is from page 148 of the Lyman manual, unfortunately only Winchester and Remington wads.

Federal paper base
Federal 209A
28.5 gr Longshot (28 gr if using Rem RP12 wad)
Winchester AA12R wad
1 3/8 oz lead shot

1302 FPS / 10,400 PSI


Being as you said you want buckshot, I always found fiber wads to be better. The following load is my choice in a Federal Gold Medal hull with bluedot. I may have used a cork wad or something to adjust height, but did not note it. Buffer is important for good buckshot patterns. This load has got to be right up there to a max in a gold medal hull, and should be just fine in the fiber base. THIS IS NOT A PUBLISHED LOAD. No plastic wad will pattern as tight as this load will that I've found.

Federal 209A
32 gr Bluedot
X12X gas seal
1/8" nitro card
1/2" fiber wad
15 pellets 2 buck in layers of 5 (about 1 1/4 oz)
PSB buffer (forgot which Lee scoop I use)

[tomme boy]

If you want more capacity try to find some buckshot hulls. They have even a shallower base than the GM hulls. Almost the same as a Activ hull.

[UKshooter]

Have a look on Youtube channel Bubba Roundtree Outdoors he loads a lot of buckshot and I have pressure tested some of his loads and they are fine. Over here I don't have access to the Federal paper base case but use Cheddite, Fiocchi and the Federal one piece plastic case, all 3 inch. These loads pattern very well but you would need to get the right BPI wads

[dsh1106]

They are both straight wall. The hunting hull just has a 1/4" paper wad in the base.

I was referring to the WAD design:
FEDERAL = Straight Wall Hull
Winchester = Taper Wall Hull

[tomme boy]

I was referring to the WAD design:
FEDERAL = Straight Wall Hull
Winchester = Taper Wall Hull

You need to be more specific about what you want. Federal has HUNTING HULLS!!!!!!!! They are the paper base wads that every person here has been giving you loads for. Every person here thought you were talking about the paper base wad hull. NOT WINCHESTER TAPER HULL!!!! THIS CAN GET YOU BADLY HURT!

[megasupermagnum]

You need to be more specific about what you want. Federal has HUNTING HULLS!!!!!!!! They are the paper base wads that every person here has been giving you loads for. Every person here thought you were talking about the paper base wad hull. NOT WINCHESTER TAPER HULL!!!! THIS CAN GET YOU BADLY HURT!

You are the only one confused. Dsh1106 has been very specific and easy to understand.

[tomme boy]

The Buckshot hulls will still give you more capacity. It lowers your load into the case. That is the reason Federal uses them to fit more buckshot into the case and use more powder to increase the speed. I pick them up whenever I see them at the range. Tactical buckshot loads.

232410

[Blood Trail]

This may or may not help:

https://youtu.be/jIsHHGlkw-Y


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greg5278]

You are talking about the Federal .090" Hull with the deep base. It is true that they have the most internal Capacity.
I use Them in 3" for a 47 Pellet #4 Buckshot Load.

Anytime Powder Migration happens, You can potentially have a Problem. The Ball/Spherical Powders seem to
move alot more than Flake Types. Longshot an Lil Gun along with their Non Canister Relatives are fussy about which Shot Wads can retain Powder in the straight Wall Hulls.

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[dsh1106]

You are talking about the Federal .090" Hull with the deep base. It is true that they have the most internal Capacity.
I use Them in 3" for a 47 Pellet #4 Buckshot Load.

Anytime Powder Migration happens, You can potentially have a Problem. The Ball/Spherical Powders seem to
move alot more than Flake Types. Longshot an Lil Gun along with their Non Canister Relatives are fussy about which Shot Wads can retain Powder in the straight Wall Hulls.

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

My original question was referring to these paper based Federal wads.
Both of these have the same internal capacity.

[Hogtamer]

Best I can identify there are 5 different Federal hulls in use now.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know why people are so confused dsh1106, your posts make sense to me. As you can see, the pressures between the the gold medal and the fiber base are pretty close, the gold medal generally being higher. I've used gold medal data before in a fiber base hull with good results.

[dsh1106]

I don't know why people are so confused dsh1106, your posts make sense to me. As you can see, the pressures between the the gold medal and the fiber base are pretty close, the gold medal generally being higher. I've used gold medal data before in a fiber base hull with good results.

msm

Maybe I'll try Ajay's trick and wrap the WAA12F114 with a piece of news paper to seal the wad & the hull.

Post 710
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150140-VdoMemorie-Blazing-Sabot!/page36

[megasupermagnum]

I've seen that before, no reason it won't work. I haven't tried it though.

[gpidaho]

I tried the newspaper between the powder and wad for the first time yesterday, works great. You don't even know there is a problem until you start loading those clear hulls. Ajay's been a big help to all of us. Gp

[gpidaho]

Winchester has gone to the dogs on components. Seems all they want to sell is those cheap Walmart shells. I'm going to miss the specialty wads like the WAA12-114 and the 20ga 1oz wads when I run out. Gp

[jmort]

I actually prefer the Down Range wads. Their DRA12 Yellow is a direct replacement for the WAA12F114.
https://www.downrangemfg.com/index.php?option=com_zoo&view=category&Itemid=170

[gpidaho]

Thanks for the link jmort. There's a specialty shotgun shop here local I bet has some. At least I'll know what to ask for. Gp

[Ginsing]

+1 on that paper trick. I just lightly push 1" square piece of tissue on top of the powder with a dowel then seat the wad. I use it for longshot and hs-6 loads. Big flake powder doesn't seem to move past the gas seal. Static and the rush of air when seating a wad are responsible for much of the powder sitting past the gas seal.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Scott: Did you crimp those hulls with your Hand Crank Crimper? It is an old Ideal tool right?

Randy

[dsh1106]

Scott: Did you crimp those hulls with your Hand Crank Crimper? It is an old Ideal tool right?

Randy

Randy

Yes those were on my Easy Loader, they were actually crimped with the Roll Crimp head I sold you.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So those hulls were previously roll crimped Federal Slug hulls ? So far the best roll crimps I have done have been with those same hulls.

Going to play with some other tools today. Might have come up with an idea for the worlds simplest hull vise. It came to me in the shower an hour ago. Funny how that happens.

Randy

[gpidaho]

Randy: Ideas for me come in the early morning waking hours. I can't sleep in in my old age but still don't get up very early. Gives a man time to think up new adventures in reloading. I'll be interested in what you come up with. So far I've been using channel locks or wooden blocks held in the clamping vice I built. The one I posted a picture of earlier. BB called it a contraption. LOL Gp

[dsh1106]

So those hulls were previously roll crimped Federal Slug hulls ? So far the best roll crimps I have done have been with those same hulls.

Going to play with some other tools today. Might have come up with an idea for the worlds simplest hull vise. It came to me in the shower an hour ago. Funny how that happens.

Randy

Yes Sir
The Blue and Red Federal I've posted pics of are/were roll crimped slug hulls.

I have roll crimped Remington Gun Club hulls as well, but those required a hand drill, as they are about .010 - .012 thou thicker than the Federals.

Scott

[Blood Trail]

Y’all ever used a nitro card over powder?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not much to this one and it works fairly well and doesn't make your hand cramp.

It is a Hull Holder for Roll crimping and it consists of a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate, this one just happens to be 2 3/8 x 3" with a .812 hole thru it off center.

I measured a bunch of hulls and they were all from .807-.812 in dia at the base. (not the rim) So I made the hole .812.

My original Idea had the plate cocking slightly to hold onto the hull. In actual use you push down on the plate and keep the base of the hull flat on the table and I guess the hull is held in place by downward pressure on the rim. Either way it works.

I built these 5 rounds this afternoon based on AA hulls with the previous crimp cut off, to test the tool. They are loaded with 20 gr of Green Dot (Trap Load) and a Blue Wad with a 1/4" Felt Wad and Lee 1 oz slug on top then Roll Crimped using the Lyman tool at @140-150 rpms. I did this on my Mill Vise but it could have been done on the drill press or with a hand drill just as easily. The tool holds the hull pretty well with minimal downward pressure.

Randy

[RMc]

RE: OP question

Recheck your data source for Federal paper base hulls.

[dsh1106]

RE: OP question

Recheck your data source for Federal paper base hulls.

RMc
What am I re-checking for?

The FEDERAL data was published in 2008 and is still listed on their website.

Example
12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Gold Medal® Plastic Case
(Data applies to both ribbed or smooth case)
1 1⁄4 3 3⁄4 1330 209A 12S4 Blue Dot 33 1⁄2 9,900

12 Gauge 2 3⁄4˝ Hunting-Type Plastic Case
(Top Gun , ® Field and Target Loads; Federal Premium® Wing•Shok , ® and Federal® Game•Shok® Shells with Paper Basewad)
1 1⁄4 3 3⁄4 1330 209A 12S4 Blue Dot 34 9,600


Scott

[RMc]

How many types of 2.75" Federal paper basewad hulls are there?

These paper basewad hulls have the same basewad height.

Considering your original quest for 1 3/8 ounce Longshot data:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

[OnHoPr]

Just for the heck of it, if you are not, let me be less specific, using some form of softer wad column and temperature sensitive powder in COLD temps, not referring to any in particular and you look at enough recipes over the decades you may find using a standard 209 in place of the 209A or 209Ms will allow you to increase powder charge 1 to 4 grains in something like the Fed paper hull increasing projectile/s speed 50 to 100 fps. The mag primer will give you a quicker pressure peak and an increase in speed, but not as much speed if you can get away with the standard primer with more powder and the slower pressure peak.