30-40 Krag to 6.5mm??

[Doughty]

Does anybody have any information on wildcatting a .30-40 Krag to 6.5mm? More precisely, the .30-40 Krag case, not a .30-40 Krag rifle.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Back when Krags were plentiful, I believe this was a fairly common wildcat; and that there were several versions of it and that none of them ever became standardized. This is good, because you can develop your own version from scratch, but bad because you'll have to make up a chambering
reamer and reloading dies. I'd bet a custom sizing die can be obtained from RCBS for at least one version. If not, if you supply a sample cartridge they'll make one up.

If you want a rimmed cartridge you can always go to the 6.5X58R Krag, for which reamers and tooling exist, but probably hard to find and expensive.

The best of all worlds is my Norwegian Krag Jorgensen chambered in 6.5x55 mm Swedish Mauser.

[bruce drake]

6.5 Dutch Mannlicher might be a good case to emulate. Its the 303 Case necked down to 6.5mm/ Its a dead cartridge case since WWII also so load data might be scarce although both chamberings -- 6.5 Krag and 6.5 Dutch were rated for 40k psi loads due to the actions they were chambered in were 1st generation smokeless powder rifles. But with modern cases and modern actions, I'm sure your performance would be much different.

Bruce

[richhodg66]

A shop nearby has a nicely sporterized Dutch Manliccher they've had for three years at least. Made a low ball offer they turned down, I'll go back in six months or so and try again.

Had a fairly lengthy thread about case forming for it, seems like a neat cartridge.

[curioushooter]

It seems like it would be pretty straightforward, but why would you want to? You know there are Norwegian Krags in 6.5x55. Very nice rifles if you can find one not rusted to high heavens by the corrosive priming.

[Cast_outlaw]

You might want to consider using a 303british case instead, it’s a ballistic cousin to the 30-40, and a dimensional cousin as well. stand two side by side and there scary similar to each other, but brass is easily acquired for 303british, and at least for me 30-40 krag is much harder to get.

anyway a gun shop here had 30-40 on back order for over 2 years, whereas you can still get 303 at Walmart. 303 can also be resized to be used in 30-40. my two cents best of luck

Edited because it’s late I’m tired and it was a mess

[Wayne Smith]

If you are just thinking and not committed to the 6.5 - Bullberry Barrels now has the reamer for the 25 Krag AI. I have Sierra data for the 257 Roberts AI and 25-06 data is readily available. My case has two grains of water capacity greater than the 257 Roberts AI and two grains of water capacity less than the 25-06. They made my Encore barrel. I'm still forming cases, but I'm using the top loads for the Bob for my starting loads and topping out somewhere in the low 25-06 data. Haven't gotten out the chronograph for this one yet.

[EDG]

The 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher cartridge is close to what you want.
The case is made by trimming .303 British brass to 2.110 long.
It is almost identical to the 6.5X54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer except a rim is added.
You can pretty much use 6.5X54 MS loading data.

[Doughty]

Thanks for the replies. Rifle action I'm thinking of is a Ruger #1, which I've got, and brass is .30-40, which I've got. Closest I've seen is the .25 Krag AI, but all the gun rags are sayin' 6.5mm is the really cool diameter. Thought I had read on here that someone had made up a 6.5 / .30-40 Krag. Why? Maybe just because nobody has (or at least very few have) ...done it.

[bob208]

why not just buy a Norwegian krag in 6.5 x 55 ?

[Wayne R. Scott]

Thanks for the replies. Rifle action I'm thinking of is a Ruger #1, which I've got, and brass is .30-40, which I've got. Closest I've seen is the .25 Krag AI, but all the gun rags are sayin' 6.5mm is the really cool diameter. Thought I had read on here that someone had made up a 6.5 / .30-40 Krag. Why? Maybe just because nobody has (or at least very few have) ...done it.

How about a .256 Newton on the Ruger No. 1 action? Not too many people have one laying around. I have seen exactly one, built on a No.1 and it was very effective on prairie dogs.

I do like the looks of a rimmed case for a single shot. If you have a bunch of 30/40 brass laying around I would go for the 6.5 Krag.

[EDG]

I would not build anything on Krag brass unless you already have a lifetime supply. It looks like domestic production has ceased. There is no reason for a foreign manufacturer to make it either.

[bob208]

he is right I think .30-40 krag brass is on the endangered list. joining the .25-35,.25-20, .32-40 and ,35 Remington does not look real good either. the only come back I know of is the 6.5 x 55.

[samari46]

My two cents for what it's worth. Why not go the other way and go for a 375/30-40 Krag?. Plenty of jacketed bullets and definitely a good assortment of .375 cast bullet molds. Since you plan on using the #1 action you could see if you can find a varmint style Ruger #1 forend. And have the barrel taper duplicated in a #1 varmint style. Might cost extra for getting the bbl turned down but a little work on the #1 forend to fit your bbl and away you go. Might be something to do as you can check out a few of the reamer rental companies to see if the reamers are available for both the 6.6 or 375. And Gun Parts may have the 30-40 krag extractors as I believe they fit both the #1 & #3 actions. Frank

[Idaho Mule]

Closest thing I can find in my meager library is in P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol 2. They list the 6.5/303 Epps.

"This is a cartridge made by Ellwood Epps, Clinton, Ontario, Canada, from the .303 British. It has basically the same case capacity as the .256 Newton, and although it has not been chronographed, from the shooting that Mr. Epps has done with it, it seems to compare very closely with the .256 Newton, and he believes that it should also duplicate the ballistics of the .270/257 Improved Ackley. This is a fine cartridge for the P 14 Enfield."

Sounds like a cool project to me. Keep us posted if you build it. JW

[Doughty]

Thanks for the replies.

To those suggesting other cases and or actions, that's not what I am interested in. I don't own any bolt actions. I WANT to use a Ruger #1 action. I already have sufficient .30-40 cases, and WANT to use them. I am WANTing to know if anyone has information on this particular cartridge. In that there is supposedly "nothing new under the sun" I thought that surely someone here had already done this.

samari46 Good idea, but I already have 2 rifles in .375 Krag. I call them .38 Krags. Good rounds, just looking at going the other way for a change. Also have a .33 Krag (.338) my favorite all around hunting cartridge.

Thanks again. If I ever get one made I'll post up something on it here.

[500Linebaughbuck]

the 6.5x58R krag was made in 1933 and it was Danish target rifle. (handloader's manual of cartridge conversions, page 776)

https://www.soldusa.com/Listing/Details/8021720/One-65mm3040-Krag-Wildcat-Dummy-Cartridge-No-Powder

that looks like a good cartridge. i have a bubba-uped 1898 springfield armory in 30-40 krag and i love it. if i come across another one, i'll buy it and give it to JES and he'll do a 35 krag.

i doubt that you will come across a chamber reamer, but you never know. you can buy it, i think. just go to google and type in chamber reamer and go from there.


this is for guys who think that 30-40 krag brass is done. grafs, captech and hornady does it too.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/764?

[EDG]

"this is for guys who think that 30-40 krag brass is done. grafs, captech and hornady does it too. "

Captech has been dead for about a year.
Grafs is a reseller. They manufacture nothing that I know of.
Hornady is probably loading brass made by some one else. Example the 6.5 Jap brass is supposedly manufactured by PPU.
In case you missed it Hornady brass in .35 Rem for example is NOT competitively priced. I expect over priced products to be poor sellers, hard to find and not long in the market. Try buying .405 brass made by Hornady today.

[hockeynick39]

I have QuickLoad and it shows the 6.5 x 58R. If interested in some information or full data table, PM me. All I need is barrel length, bullet, powder, and OAL. Check out link for a reamer:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/5mm-68mm-nopix-showcart-/4355-65mm-x-58r-krag-jorgensen-reamer.html

[Doughty]

Not sure about this, but I thought the x58r Danish was made from .45-90 brass???

[500Linebaughbuck]

"this is for guys who think that 30-40 krag brass is done. grafs, captech and hornady does it too. "

Captech has been dead for about a year.
Grafs is a reseller. They manufacture nothing that I know of.
Hornady is probably loading brass made by some one else. Example the 6.5 Jap brass is supposedly manufactured by PPU.
In case you missed it Hornady brass in .35 Rem for example is NOT competitively priced. I expect over priced products to be poor sellers, hard to find and not long in the market. Try buying .405 brass made by Hornady today.

well, grafs is selling captech brass. hornady brass is about $1 cheaper than grafs. PPU is good enuff for me. i took a 8x57 ppu and necked it up to 9.3x57. they've been fired about 6 or 7 times. i don't have the need for the 35 rem or 405 win.

[500Linebaughbuck]

Not sure about this, but I thought the x58r Danish was made from .45-90 brass???

you could make the 6.5 krag using 45 basic. but i'm at a loss for making x58 danish for 45-90.

[Harry O]

This is not exactly what you asked about, but close. It was based on a Ruger #3 in 30-40 Krag. The wildcat is a 30-40 case blown out nearly straight and the shoulder moved forward. The neck is 7mm long and 7mm in diameter. The angle is pretty sharp, but I forget the exact angle. It is a near duplicate to the .280 Remington cartridge ballistically.

I form it by necking down the 30-40 neck to 7mm. I load it with about 12-13gr of Red Dot. Any fast powder will work. Then fill the rest of the case with plastic shotshell buffer. Then I push wax into the neck to hold it in place. Then, fire it. It will fireform to the shape of the chamber. I have no idea if anyone has ever made an identical wildcat. I just went ahead and did it (although the 7mm/30-30 Ken Water's cartridge was an inspiration -- I just thought it was a bit small).

I use normally 50gr of IMR4350 powder with a 140gr bullet. It averages about 2,880fps. I have taken it up to 55gr without problems other than slightly less accuracy. I have also experimented with IMR4064, IMR4831, and IMR4895 but have dropped them. My best bullet is one of the Barnes triple shock. It is long so I can seat it out beyond where it touches the rifling. When I close the dropping block, it breaks the bond between the bullet and the case and seats it back a little bit while still touching the rifling. It is very accurate with equal pull from every bullet when fired. This works for me better than seating the bullet 0.010" to 0.020" back from the rifling without breaking the bond. Lead jacketed bullets cannot be set out long enough to do this. The barrel is a heavy contour 26" long stainless steel Lija barrel. It has a #1 style stock and a 6x18 Nikon scope. I have two custom sets of dies from Hornady, one for use and one for a backup.

It shoots less than one-MOA. Occasionally, but often enough to make it interesting, it shoots less than one-half-MOA.

232434

[Doughty]

HarryO
What name did you give this creature and where did you have the reamer made?

[EDG]

This time next year what will you do for brass when Grafs is sold out?
What does PPU have to do with Krag brass?
Practically speaking you don't need Krag brass either you merely want it.


well, grafs is selling captech brass. hornady brass is about $1 cheaper than grafs. PPU is good enuff for me. i took a 8x57 ppu and necked it up to 9.3x57. they've been fired about 6 or 7 times. i don't have the need for the 35 rem or 405 win.

[Harry O]

HarryO
What name did you give this creature and where did you have the reamer made?

I call it "No Name on the Bullet". That was Audie Murphy's favorite movie that he starred in and the name of the Biography of him.

I don't recall who made the reamers. It has been more than 20 years, maybe 25. However, the round count for the barrel is less than 450 rounds. There is plenty of life still in it. I only rarely pull it out and shoot it at the 200 yard range. Even though I am no target shooter have learned a LOT from that gun. My gunsmith (may he rest in peace) was talking with 2 or perhaps 3 reamer makers at the time. I did not recognize their names but, whoever it was, did good work.

I had learned in previous projects that I should tell my gunsmith what I wanted and then I should listen if he made suggestions. He was generally right. For example, I told him that I wanted the shoulder on the case blown out straight with a one-caliber neck and a sharp transition. We ended up with 2 or 3 thousandths taper at the front. The neck ended up just a bit more than 1 caliber for some reason. The transition is not super sharp either. Etc, etc.

I had an extra Ruger #3 in 30-40 Krag, plenty of brass, and some extra cash. So the most expensive things were the loading dies, the reamers, and the barrel. Once I paid for the first custom loading dies, the second one was cheap, so it got one for a backup. It is still sealed in Hornady plastic shrink-wrap. Loading dies and reamer would have been a lot less expensive if it happened to be a "stock" wildcat. There was nothing really close when we looked at P.O. Ackley's book. I wanted the shoulder moved forward, not Ackley improved. You could cut a lot of cost out of a custom if you find a previous wildcat close to what you want.

The stock was very reasonable since it was laminated (plastic stocks did not have the bugs worked out of them at that time and I did not want solid --wandering -- walnut). We machined a walnut shim to go between the bars under the barrel (ahead of the action) and the barrel to put uplift on the barrel. Without the shim, the shots would climb rapidly with heat. Groups enlarge much slower now and go in all directions instead of climbing. In any case, the best way to shoot is VERY slowly.

Attached is a picture of the die box and three cases. Left is an unmodified 30-40 Krag case. The middle is a fireformed case. The right is a loaded wildcat. Several people have questioned my choice of a bullet, but it works well. Other bullets I have tried don't work as well. I have no doubt that a REAL long range target shooter could do much better than me, but it is by far, the most accurate gun I have. It should, considering what it cost. It was worth it.

232537

[6.5 CM]

Poor OP wants to build a 6.5x30-40 and is being told 100 other options !

Sound like an excellent idea for a No. 1 and would probably do anything a 6.5 Creedmore or 6.5x55 will.

I'd suggest you get a reamer made that mirrors the 25 imp Krag except in .264. A long throat and fast twist would let you use today's great VLD bullets.

Any reamer maker could make you a reamer. I'm sure with a combination of Krag and 6.5x55 dies you could gerry-rig up some Krag cases for fireforming. Then any die maker would make you dies from those cases.

Sounds like a great project. Lemme know if you do it as I have several boring No. 1s to do something with. I imagine a 243 one could be rebored/rechambered to your new 6.5 Krag.

[Doughty]

HarryO

Thanks for the info.

[Doughty]

Are the gods trying to tell me something? I was just gifted 100 rounds of unfired R-P .30-40 brass.

[samari46]

Doughty, maybe the gods are really on your side. I've been seriously thinking about the 37 rimmed. All it is, is a 303 British case necked up to 375 caliber. Does leave a tiny shoulder so headspacing on the rim would definitely be the way to go. Could use either a #4MKII action that has a separate bolt release than the earlier #4MKI* or a P14 action which I have put away. I'd love to hear about your 375 Krags if you wish to pm me. Frank

[Reverend Al]

Another thought is rather than cutting a chamber for a wildcat how about utilizing an already existing cartridge utilizing the rimmed .30-40 Krag or .303 British case? Years ago a friend had a nicely made English sporter rifle in 6.5 Dutch and it was simple to make it from readily available .303 British cases (way more common up here in Canada than .30-40 Krag brass). The 6.5 Dutch is a rimmed round and virtually identical on the base and rim dimensions so ran some .303 cases through a couple of intermediate sizing dies and finished up using a 6.5x54MS full length sizer to end up with 6.5 Dutch rimmed. They chambered perfectly in his Rigby (Steyr) sporter and will Hornady 160 grain round nose bullets it shot right on the rifle's open sights at 100 yards. Just a thought since it's a standard cartridge already and could be easily formed using existing (non special order aka EXPENSIVE) dies. In a modern (stronger) single shot action I'm sure it could be loaded to much higher levels than the listed 6.5 Dutch loads suitable to the old Steyr split bridge action ...

[Wayne Smith]

If you are serious about this give Dave Davidson (CH4D) a call and see what he has for dies on the shelf. I would not be suprised if he already has a 6.5 Krag - but is it the design you want?